Subaru Outback vs Ford Freestyle

barnstormer64 · February 2007

I saw a Freestyle get "stuck" once on a hill simply because it just could not overcome gravity. The driver put his foot to the floor at one point and the car just sat there. Score one for CVT.

And you know that this is an inherent flaw in the CVT how? :confuse:

mmccloskey · February 2007

Actually, there are many current vehicles that have CVTs. Toyota has the Hybrid Camry, Highlander and Prius along with the Lexus RX400h and GS450h. Honda has the Element and Civic Hybrid, both with CVT. Of course Nissan has several vehicles (Murrano, Maxima, Altima, Sentra) available w/CVT. Way back in the 80's (I think) even Subaru produced the 'Justy' which had a CVT. Even Audi produced the A4 w/CVT in the early/mid 90's. CVT's provide a different (some say strange) driving experience and most drivers are used to feeling the transmission 'shift' from one gear to the next while the CVT provides seamless acceleration with no shift points. I had hesitations about buying my 2005 FS due to the CVT, but have come to prefer it over my other vehicle (2002 Lexus ES300). As smooth as the Lexus tranny is, the CVT in the FS is even smoother. Maybe if consumers were better educated about the workings and benefits of the CVT, more would come to like them.

Regards -

M. J. McCloskey

paisan · February 2007

Like I said not many vehicles out there with CVT (except the hybrids). Nissan is the only one using them in non-hybrids (and the former Saturn and former FS)

-mike

stevedebi · February 2007

"Honda has the Element and Civic Hybrid, both with CVT."

Sorry, there is no Element hybrid. Honda doesn't make an SUV hybrid at this time.

paisan · February 2007

Ok sorry, so Honda Element and the Nissans, still not a lot of CVTs out there in the grand scheme of things.

Anyone have % of cars sold with CVTs overall? I'd hazzard a guess less than 5%?

-mike

stevedebi · February 2007

"Anyone have % of cars sold with CVTs overall? I'd hazzard a guess less than 5%? "

I would also be interested to know. They have been available in Europe for a long time. I remember a friend having a Volvo with CVT back in the early 1980's.

mmccloskey · February 2007

I was commenting that the Element and Civic Hybrid had CVT's, not that both were Hybird. The 2006 Accord Hybrid also had a CVT but not sure if that model is available in the 2007 model year. Of course CVT's are more prevalent in Europe than in the USA. Not sure what percentage, but that info is available via the WWW.

As usual -

M. J. McCloskey

freealfas · February 2007

So naturally because there is no (insert % here) number that means they are less effective than a traditional AT. I love the story of the CVT not being able to go up a hill,

"The driver put his foot to the floor at one point and the car just sat there. Score one for CVT. That might just be the Ford implementation, though, or the unit could have been defective. Cannot say for sure..."

You admit that you cannot for sure say what the issue was or even that there was one as fact yet you offer it up as such on a forum questioning the effectiveness of a CVT.

Have you driven one, do you own one, do you KNOW the benefits on a day to day basis. My guess is no, I do, I wrote the check and bought one, I know MY Freestyle was never meant to tow, I know it was built as a people/stuff hauler which it does exceptionally well despite being "underpowered"(another inaccuracy).

As I noted opinions of armchair test drivers need not apply as they are pointless and a waste of bandwidth. Do the homework, drive one, live with one, then tell me what you think after you have an opinion that is based in experience rather than hyperbole.

paisan · February 2007

No one said they were bad. "not being sold on it yet" does not constitute a negative. So I guess we should all go out and buy everything we are interested in?

Why don't you inform us as this is a discussion group, rather than just spout out how we are downing it.

-mike

freealfas · February 2007

I have "informed' here and on other forums. I get a little tired of constantly hearing that the FS being underpowered and the CVT being a weak link by people who don't own one or would not consider one soley based on the fact that the FS has a CVT or what they read here.

The seamless aspect of the CVT is a nice suprise, combine that with the improved mileage the CVT imparts, the fewer moving pieces therebye providing less opportunity for failure and a winner of a gearbox. I have seen 28mpg with 7 people up and a steady 65mph cruise. Combine that with the safety ratings, the fact that it has all the power a vehicle of this type needs and you have a great package.

I have only criticized one aspect of the FS and that is its interior material selection. We have been spoiled by our 98 Passat and the quality of its interior and know that quality can indeed be provided at a price point.

It gets a little old coming to these forums for information, insight and advice and then have to sift through all the opinions implied as fact more often than not based in nothingness, not even a test drive in most cases.

But hey, what do I know...

paisan · February 2007

So here is a questions for yah on the CVT, how is the MPG v. non CVT on the FS? I'm not sure if there is a non CVT to compare em, but just curious. I haven't driven one yet so I can't comment on the pickup or smoothness of the CVTs. I wouldn't buy a Ford personally just due to very bad past experience with an Escort, Crown Vic and Lincoln Town Car.

I did see a FS in front of me at the car was a week ago, it is pretty darn big. Kind of reminded me of the 1980s Chevy Caprice Station Wagons that my parent's friends owned in terms of the dimensions. Not a bad thing as I'll be they handle way better than those Caprices did!

-Mike

ateixeira · February 2007

Aren't all Freestyles CVTs?

The Five Hundred came with both, though. The CVT got 20/27 EPA mpg, and the 6 speed auto in the same car got 21/29.

That's one factor, there is also acceleration, plus many others.

FWIW, Consumer Reports rates the CVT on the Freebie as "worse than average" in terms of reliability.

The Five Hundred scores better there and overall, and that's the main powertrain difference.

I think paisan's "not sold on it yet" is a valid concern.

-juice

caliberchic · February 2007

Dodge Caliber also has CVT.

mmccloskey · February 2007

Good to know there is another vehicle with CVT. I understand the upcoming Lexus LS600h will also have a CVT. Obviously Toyota is aware of the CVT's merits since they will be offering it in their flagship model as well as several current hybrid vehicles. Too bad Ford is dropping the CVT - it is much more expensive than a conventional transmission and Ford probably doesn't want to invest the money in adopting the current CVT for the new 3.5 engine that will go into the D3 trio for 2008.

Regards -

M. J. McCloskey

stevedebi · February 2007

"I was commenting that the Element and Civic Hybrid had CVT's, not that both were Hybird."

Nope, the ICE only Civic and the Element have conventional 5 speed automatic (or manual) transmissions. So far as I know, only the Hybrid has a CVT.

mmccloskey · February 2007

Sorry to have provided erroneous info about the Honda Element having a CVT when is doesn't. I do know the Civic Hybrid has a CVT as my brother owns a 2006. The favorable experience I've had w/my 2005 FS has made me somewhat of an advocate regarding the CVT - too bad Ford is doing away with a great transmission.

Regards -

M. J. McCloskey

paisan · February 2007

If you think about it, the engines can be tuned for a narrow range of high performance since the CVT keeps it in a narrow power band. Similar to but opposite my boats that have only a 1 speed transmission. The good thing on those is with a BBC you have torque from 1100rpm up to redline at 5500-5600.

-mike

barnstormer64 · February 2007

Obviously Toyota is aware of the CVT's merits since they will be offering it in their flagship model as well as several current hybrid vehicles.

In a hybrid, you pretty much HAVE to use a CVT. Whatever tranny you use, it has to work in reverse as a generator.

I'm not aware of any hybrids without a CVT (are there any?), and I would assume that's because it's much simpler to use the CVT in this kind of application.

ateixeira · February 2007

Yeah, the Insight came with a manual.

I realize CVTs are becoming abundant, but I'd judge each particular one on its own merits.

After all, Ford builds several wonderful and reliable 4 speed automatics, but the CD4E shared by the Contour and some Mazda models was just a lemon. It was a matter of when, not if, they would fail.

All transmissions of the same type are not created equal, so we should not expect the same from CVTs.

-juice

stevedebi · February 2007

I too, am a proponent of the CVT. Great idea. The Nissan Murano has a high horsepower / torque with a CVT, so I suspect it was possible for the 2008 FS to use a modified CVT. I imagine they cut it for budget reasons.

xwesx · February 2007

All this support for CVT piqued my interest to the point that I figured I would at least try it. I contacted the local Ford dealership to schedule a test drive just to get a seat-of-the-pants feel for the CVT and associated reactive AWD, and to test its ability in steep hill start and climb situations similar to that observed previously, etc. The dealership never returned my phone message - there is some great service! But alas, I am holding out hope. I will try again and see what happens. Maybe they are reluctant since I told them up front that I am not in the market to buy. :sick: I know a few roads near the dealership that should give it a good workout.

If the CVT was not problematic in and of itself, it really seems like a poor choice to nix it outright so soon after implementing it. I have read that it was, but the experiences here dispute that. If Ford is manufacturing the units itself, then the investment is probably not even paid off yet. If under contract, then it is was probably a 3-MY contract they are choosing to not renew. When was it first introduced, 2005?

barnstormer64 · February 2007

Maybe they are reluctant since I told them up front that I am not in the market to buy

Yep, that mighta done it.

ateixeira · February 2007

I test drove one and the CVT didn't stand out. In fact at the time I didn't even realize I was driving a CVT, and that's a good thing.

-juice

xwesx · February 2007

Well, I still want to give it a try. I am going to give it another shot this Friday.

I guess I could also go drive a Nissan, but I would rather try it out in a car I might actually consider owning.

rick2456 · February 2007

MSRP was 33k, I got it for 25K plus tax.

xwesx · February 2007

I heard back from the Ford dealership late last week. The fella was very nice and personable (something I have come to expect over the last couple of months!), and we chatted a bit about the car, etc. He asked me to wait to test drive until after the weather breaks (still topping out at about -5F during the day) so it is easier for them to get the car prepped. I told him I was really not in the market to buy, but that I was extremely dissatisfied with the Subaru I just purchased and therefore wanted to "run the gauntlet" on all the other vehicles I am or was considering should I decide to dump the Subaru in the next few months. He offered me 10K off MSRP right off the bat, which was something close to $33K,(we were discussing an SLT AWD - not sure of features on it, but from the Ford website I get the feeling this is the mid-level trim, but base level for AWD) and asked me if that would help get me in the market. I laughed, told him that right now I just wanted to test drive it, and finished up with telling him that if the car was up to snuff and I later decided to dump the Subaru, it might be enough to get me to consider coming back. :P

passat_2002 · February 2007

"He offered me 10K off MSRP right off the bat,"

I seriously don't believe you.

xwesx · February 2007

That is fine by me. After the fiasco that lead up to my even taking the time to look at new vehicles, I am quite used to people not believing me. Ask Mike about brake pads and rotors - I think he still does not believe me.

Word for word, the individual said, "Would ten grand off MSRP get you in the market?" Whether he would hold to that, I know not and, at this point, am not concerned. Whether you believe it, I am also not concerned. Doubt is a good thing, because it leads to questions, research, and answers.

Frankly, I would not even consider purchasing a domestic product without a steep discount because of the depreciation they take anyway. Sure, I could pay $27K for an MSRP $33K Ford, but that does not mean I can turn around and sell it for any more than $22K the moment I drive away.

On the other hand, I am actually considering the sale of my Subaru because I can sell it for $20K+ today and purchased it for $21.7. That is still cheaper than an 8-week rental. But, just because other people like the car does not mean I must.

passat_2002 · February 2007

Are we talking an '06 or an '07 Freestyle. Has it been previously titled? Was it wrecked during a test drive maybe?

If it's not previously titled, and it's never been wrecked, and they will sell it 10K under sticker (I doubt they would), then you should immediately shovel that foot of snow out of your driveway and rush down to your Ford dealer with checkbook in hand before they realize their mistake.

ateixeira · February 2007

I believe it, but just be sure to read the fine print.

They'll probably add $600 in freight, $400 processing fee, plus add back the $400 military rebate you don't qualify for, plus the $500 recent college grad rebate you also don't qualify for, plus you'd have to finance through Ford Credit at a very high rate to get that price.

I do believe the $10k off list, but they'll make it up somewhere else. Car dealers aren't in the biz to lose money.

I bought a '91 Escort new, and got the college grad rebate, but not the military one. They added freight, processing fee, and tried to sign me at 12.5% interest. :surprise:

I'm not saying don't buy it, just beware, that's all.

-juice

xwesx · February 2007

Hahah... thanks for the responses! Seriously! To answer questions though... I have no answers. I only spoke with the fella for about 3 minutes, most of which was BS speak that had nothing to do with cars at all. He said what he said, and I responded as indicated. I *think* we were talking about an '07 Freestyle SLT AWD, as that was what I told him I wanted to test drive in a prior email. Beyond that, I make no guarantees. :P

Were I interested in buying, numbers would have to get concrete real quick before I sat down to sign paperwork. Right now, I just want to drive the darn thing. In my mind, the CVT and reactive AWD are still low points. Like I said before, all the positive praise here has piqued my interest to try it out for myself. But, when I do drive it, I will ask him for an OTD price so as not to leave this conversation in limbo.

There are 5-6 other makes/models I want to drive as well. The Subaru would be perfect if it did not sound like it was going to start falling apart around me and they could get the moisture-in-the-lamps problem resolved. This is month 2... what will it be like in year 8?

stevedebi · February 2007

"I *think* we were talking about an '07 Freestyle SLT AWD, as that was what I told him I wanted to test drive in a prior email."

Freestyle SEL, maybe? I've never heard of an "SLT" trim... :confuse:

xwesx · February 2007

Oh, right. Sorry, it is SEL. Alphabet soup! :sick:

Subaru Outback vs Ford Freestyle

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