Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Crossover SUV Comparison

11112141617142

Comments

  • alangonzalezalangonzalez Member Posts: 9
    This discussion on turning radius is amusing. I tend to think the majority people don't think about it in mathematical terms when purchasing a vehicle. They think in terms of size and make assumptions on size/maneuverability.

    During a testdrive, this is what someone would instinctly feel out and they would use those instincts to like or dislike the car. After they get the car, they feel the turning radius and adjust accordingly. For the original poster it plays a factor, I'm the type that adjusts accordingly.
  • arumagearumage Member Posts: 922
    I adjust accordingly. I'd just rather not adjust alot if I don't have to. :P

    If I bought a Freestyle, I'm sure that after a while (and maybe a little grumbling :) ), I would get used to it and never give it another thought as long as the rest of it was to my liking.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    being less wide also helps.
  • blindbatblindbat Member Posts: 15
    I drove the Veracruz for the first time tonight – I love it!
    I have driven the Pilot, Highlander, Acadia, Outlook, CX-9, and the MKX. I know looks is very subjective, but I think the Veracruz is good looking, and certainly good driving. I didn’t like the transmission in the Acadia, Outlook, and MKX. I really like the transmission in the CX-9, and Veracruz. They are very similar, if not the same by Aisin.
    I think the center consol in the CX-9 is way too high, uncomfortable, and confining.
    Third row seating is probably roomier in the Acadia, but not by much. The Veracruz will be fine for my grandkids for many years.

    My local dealer here in Washington State wants full MSRP, so I must look elsewhere to buy. Anyone got any ideas?
  • selooseloo Member Posts: 606
    On TV the other day, the Hyundai dealership in Chambersburg, PA claimed you could buy any 07 model at the invoice price then subtract any incentives. I do not know much about Hyundai, but I would not pay full MSRP for any of these cars.

    Good Luck
  • It could...even though the differences may only be a couple of inches:
    FS = 74.4, Tahoe + 79, Land Cruiser = 76.4, Durango = 76.4.

    The Veracruz by the way is 76.6 inches wide.
  • albookalbook Member Posts: 1,282
    The Freestyle gets 19 / 24 with AWD, and 20/ 27 with FWD. The Acadia varies between 17-18 MPG city, and 24 - 26 highway. So no, it does not get better MPG. The FS gets better MPG.
    wait a minute now, the acadia gets exactly 1 mpg less than the freestyle, and that's with the stingier standards the Fs hasn't seen. And besides that, who wouldn't like a roomier bettrer looking and handling SUV for one less mpg?
    Also, the Acadia is heavier by 700 lbs (AWD FS - it is 900 lbs heavier than my FWD). No way you are going to throw that much weight around at 19 / 24,
    compare apples to apples. the FWD acadia is only 500lbs heavier than the freestyle, the awd 700lbs. The new taurus X will be heavier with worse mpg.
    FWIW, I get 20 in town and 26 80 MPH highway in my 2006 FS. At 65 it will get around 30 MPG.
    You do not get 30 mpg in an FS. My friend has had a LIGHTER 500 for a year or two of highway driving and doesn't get better than 26mpg. Or 19 in the city.
    Someone else should straighten his facts.
  • albookalbook Member Posts: 1,282
    My own personal bad experiences have been with GM products, especially the 1995 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme SL...
    The wife had a '94 elantra. took to the dealer many times for engine problems. She was in an accident in it in '97. neither airbag deployed. I won't ever get a Hyundai again. Once a problem, always a problem right?
    See? maybe you should give GM another shot. Your Cutlass was a '95. surely Gm has improved (and they don't even make Oldsmobile anymore). don't have to like the Outlook, but all GMs aren't bad.
  • albookalbook Member Posts: 1,282
    Overall, i am not impresed with the new Highlander, which seems like someone put a swoopy body kit on the boxy old one. The Lexus LX570/ Landcruiser look to be the same thing as they were in the '99-'07 lineup. How will the Sequoia fair?probly a Tundra with three rows. Wheres the new Honda pilot? Honda needs a home run with the likes of Enclave and VeraCruz.
  • practicalpractical Member Posts: 53
    Had my 1st test drive tonight. It's an AWD base model. Didn't look at the $ as I'm not getting one right away. My goal is to compare it w/ CX-9 I had yesterday.

    :) ,
    - touch and feel of the steering wheel
    - more connected than the disconnected CX-9
    - power should be adequet
    - 2nd and 3rd rows, w/ 2nd row slided back all the way, still a bit knee room at 3rd row.
    - display is much nicer than the CX-9's red
    - center gauge's eclips light effect
    - a personal touch down to every individual level, just count how many vents on the back (ceiling, b-pilar and floor)
    - tire pressure tells which one, CX-9 doesn't.
    - large side mirror w/ turn signal.
    - almost all other things

    :( ,
    - a slightly lagging in the transmission, perhaps I'm so used to Honda's VTEC
    - gas pedal is a bit more in-sensitive than CX-9, a better one. wish it's as precise as my Honda's.
    - no HID, wish they swap the central cooler for it.
    - very little cargo when 3rd row is up, this is the same for all normal size CUV and SUV. CX-9 has a bit more room.

    Overall, I'm sold to this. Dealer had no idea for how long the actual delivery will come.

    Not sure if Honda will roll out a NEW pilot this fall, wait three more weeks when NYC Auto Show opens.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    I never got 30mpg with my Freestyle, but over the past 2 years and 44K miles, I average in the low 20's mpg on subarb driving and on highway driving between 25-27mpg at speeds around 70mph.
  • carlitos92carlitos92 Member Posts: 458
    Hi Victor.
    1. If it ever says *Host* after your name, I'll take your advice under consideration. Otherwise, I thought your chiding was condescending, and frankly, unsolicited. Thanks, but no thanks.

    2. As for my remark, I was trying to add some levity to what I thought was an asinine argument... hence the smiley in my post. :P You may be right: "bigger is better" might well be a common view (although I doubt it's the majority of vehicle buyers that hold it). Personally I think "bigger is better" is a trend that is a symptom of something WRONG with the American market, all the way from how we eat to what we commute in.

    Really, I'm no Michael Moore, but if you read the *entire* thread and others in the SUV category, you'll see some valid points about:
    a) how weight is the enemy of braking, acceleration, handling, and fuel efficiency.
    b) how savvy structural engineering can be just as protective in a collision as sheer mass, and
    c) how two vehicles in the same class and of very similar dimensions can be several hundred pounds apart in weight with absolutely no appreciable benefits going to the flabbier model.

    But hey, it's a free country. If you cling fast to what I consider the decades-old vision of "good 'ol American iron's" solidity equalling value and crashworthiness, you're welcome to do so. ...But I'm also free to point, click, and post as randomly as I like, when I think it's relevant to the topic and that it might spark some meaningful conversation.

    Cheers.
    -c92
  • freealfasfreealfas Member Posts: 652
    "You do not get 30 mpg in an FS"

    You're right I just saw 31mpg 3 days ago after filling up and driving home at a steady 65mph highway cruise after taking my daughter to the doctor, so yes there are and have been many(read around the posts) FS's that have gotten 30+mpg.
  • arumagearumage Member Posts: 922
    She was in an accident in it in '97. neither airbag deployed.

    I had an accident in the Cutlass and neither airbag deployed either even though it had been recalled for airbag issues and checked by a dealer. Luckily I wasn't hurt. I don't really like the Acadia or Outlook, but I like the look of the Enclave. It's out of the budget in the near future though.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    How many miles did you drive to calculate your 31mpg? And I assume you're not basing your 31mpg from the trip computer.
  • dbtdbt Member Posts: 298
    FWIW, got back from the Minneapolis auto show. They had a Taurus X on the platform (could not enter, and all doors were closed when I was there), but I couldn't see a Freestyle to try out seating & sizes. Asked at the desk, and the Ford guys said Ford decided it did not need to bring the Freestyle to the show (though there were Five Hundreds and Montegos there).

    Guess Ford couldn't spare a Freestyle?
  • Or it might look kind of silly to be touting the "all-new" Taurus X when another vehicle (the Freestyle) sat there looking for all the world like a Taurus X with a different grill.

    Did they have 08 Taurus and Sable sedans on display?
  • loachloach Member Posts: 246
    Airbags aren't designed to deploy in every accident - only severe accidents. Were either of you hurt in your accidents? If not, I would guess that the accident just wasn't severe enough to merit airbag deployment.

    My airbags didn't deploy in my Pathfinder when I rear-ended somebody in '02 :blush: , nor when my daughter wrapped it around a small tree in '06. Both were minor accidents (if $6000 damage can be considered minor :cry: ) and no one was hurt. Airbag deployment would have been a waste and would have just been more expensive to fix.
  • arumagearumage Member Posts: 922
    No one was hurt, but I rear ended the lady hard enough to put a crease down the side of her Bravada. I've seen airbags go off for much less. I attributed them not going off to the accident missing the frame rails of my car. With my front end going down under hard braking and her rear end going up under hard braking, I slid right underneath of her. It was about $5k to fix, but parts are bountiful and cheap for the Oldsmobile being that it shared its major parts with several Buick and Chevy models.
  • oldmazownroldmazownr Member Posts: 7
    Local dealer gave me a fantastic trade in on my '06 Mazda3 HB. :surprise: We turned in ours QUICK and are driving a CX-7GT until our new CX-9 comes in. We have a Touring coming from the docks, but are trying to see if we can get one swapped out with another dealer. Also, just an FYI, Harrelson in CLT, NC has a lovely $900 bogus charge added to every car they have. The new Mazda dealer in Rock Hill, SC was so easy to deal with that we won't look elsewhere I'm sure.

    The only thing they did wrong was put us in that GT model. Now my wife wants BU camera and 6 y/o wants talking navigation and I want the Xenon HID lights. Looks like I'm going to be spending about $6k more than I intended :cry: ...
  • oldmazownroldmazownr Member Posts: 7
    Saw an ACADIA and it's rated at around 2MPG higher than the CX-9. It looked nice and had options not offered on the Mazda, but I like the look of the CX-9 better. Personal preference only.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "You do not get 30 mpg in an FS. My friend has had a LIGHTER 500 for a year or two of highway driving and doesn't get better than 26mpg. Or 19 in the city."

    Excuse me sir, but I am going to ignore this ignorant comment until you drive your own FreeStyle (as I do) between 60 - 65 MPH (highway) and report your MPG. I am the one with the FS, and I do not make up numbers.

    FWIW, I'm not sure if your "friend" has a CVT in that 500.

    If you have some facts to report on the FS, be my guest.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "compare apples to apples. the FWD acadia is only 500lbs heavier than the freestyle, the awd 700lbs. The new taurus X will be heavier with worse mpg."

    Considering the carrying capacities & etc (everything except towing), I think that these two are pretty much apples to apples. You might also note that I was comparing the FS (not the Taurus X) to the Acadia.

    Where did you get the weight values for Taurus X? The Ford website does not have specs yet. I also have not seen EPA values on the "X" as of yet (please don't refer to the EPA site - it has only "estimates" for 2008 models based on a math formula applied to the 2007 model. We won't know the actual EPA until they are actually tested. The "math" method is useless because the Taurus X will have a new transmission and a new engine).

    However, thank you for making my point. The Acadia is 500 - 700 lbs heavier than the FS. My own experience is that the heavier the car, the more the MPG will suffer off of EPA mileage, especially in the City. It's that pesky physics, you know...
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "I never got 30mpg with my Freestyle, but over the past 2 years and 44K miles, I average in the low 20's mpg on subarb driving and on highway driving between 25-27mpg at speeds around 70mph."

    Oh, it doesn't happen often with me either. I get 25.5 @ 80 MPH, which has been the speed at which I usually travel. The 30 is only at slower speeds, and I should note it is at higher altitude as well, though everyone on these boards assures me that higher altitude is supposed to mean less MPG.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "Guess Ford couldn't spare a Freestyle?"

    No, the Freestyle is being replaced by "Taurus X", so there would be no point in having both models there. The auto shows are there to highlight the newer models.
  • tifightertifighter Member Posts: 3,592
    On these mileage numbers bouncing back and forth for the Freestyle, are you guys talking about the 2wd or awd model?

    23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd

  • arumagearumage Member Posts: 922
    The Edge has the same drivetrain and gets 18/25 miles per gallon. The 3.5L V6 is also heavier than the 3L V6. Weight is not the only factor in gas mileage either. The agressiveness of the gearing in the transmission, exhaust backpressure, and air intake all play a part in gas mileage as well.
  • freealfasfreealfas Member Posts: 652
    '05 FWD LTD for 31mpg @ 65mph cruise. It seems any faster than that and the mileage really drops off. BTW I have seen 28+ fully loaded with 4 adults and 3 kids/car seats and a full cargo area with 2 strollers/diaper bags and the like again at a steady 65mph cruise. These are real, not me making them up to make my point what a good job Ford did with this thing.
  • albookalbook Member Posts: 1,282
    Where did you get the weight values for Taurus X?
    I was talking about the FS! and i was told by the guy showing the taurus X at the Chicago auto show that the taurus X will be heavier with worse MPG. and it makes sense- I mean as you said- bigger engine= worse MPG. I will admit- the FS is light for it's size. But for 500-600 lbs more, it's funny the Acadia handles better, and gets nearly the same MPG. Form what you say, if I drive at 65 mph in an acadia, I'll probably get 29-30 mpg myself. ;) Different cars=different physics equation. Funny isn't it?
  • albookalbook Member Posts: 1,282
    No, the Freestyle is being replaced by "Taurus X", so there would be no point in having both models there. The auto shows are there to highlight the newer models.
    It was actully a dumb move not having the FS there. They want to showcase the cars they already have. They want to sell cars at auto shows, too. THe only places this doesn't apply is in Detreoit and LA, and New York. And not being able to see the inside of what they want to buy isn't smart. Maybe Ford will start making some smart moves. It might help the sales of their slow moving Freestyle!
  • albookalbook Member Posts: 1,282
    How do you get 30 mpg? My friend Joe would like to hear from you! he gets 27 at best! I know I don't ride in the car with you, but 31 mpg is a little out there.

    I read a little while back that some guy thinks an Expedition has the best third row seat out there! I hope we all agree that minivans have the best hands down! I had a Grand Caravan for the family and that was real room. No CUV can outdo that presently- though the Acadia is the closest thing. I still didn't get 30 mpg in that, either, and that was a 3900 lbs vehicle.
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    But we're not here to trade insults. Let's stick to the issues and try to be a little more civil. :)

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • nxs138nxs138 Member Posts: 481
    I had done some research on gas mileage on these forums, and people in the Freestyle Real World MPG forum do report getting 30 mpg when driving under 65 mph. The real dropoff occurs right near 65 mph, where it seems to drop near 27 mpg or lower.

    So in the "real world", with people driving 70 mph or so, you'd probably rarely see 30 mpg, but it does seem possible.
  • dbtdbt Member Posts: 298
    Did they have 08 Taurus and Sable sedans on display?

    No, the only big display was the 08 Taurus X.

    The problem is simply that car shows are for actually climbing in the vehicles, giving you a chance to try a bunch back-to-back. If something is preproduction, that's one thing, but I doubt anyone who was there shopping CUVs/SUVs like the Pilot, Acadia, CX9 etc that were open and ready to be clumb in, gave the Taurus X more than a casual look. Ford's shooting itself in the foot here.
  • freealfasfreealfas Member Posts: 652
    "How do you get 30 mpg? My friend Joe would like to hear from you! he gets 27 at best! I know I don't ride in the car with you, but 31 mpg is a little out there.

    I read a little while back that some guy thinks an Expedition has the best third row seat out there! I hope we all agree that minivans have the best hands down! I had a Grand Caravan for the family and that was real room. No CUV can outdo that presently- though the Acadia is the closest thing. I still didn't get 30 mpg in that, either, and that was a 3900 lbs vehicle."

    Buy a FS then and you to can experience what those of us OWNERS are. The fact is I did get the mpg and can do it with regularity with a conscious effort and a light foot.

    Now you are changing topic and retreating now that you want to discuss the 3rd row of the expedition or grand caravan as opposed to being so vehement in you mpg misinformation. Good move on your part as you weren't going to win that one.

    Who cares what we all agree to(or won't...EVER), people around here are befuddled by the attributes of the FS and the fact that in the REAL WORLD there are owners that can get 30+mpg in a package that has usable space behind an occupied third row, gets highest marks for all of the crash and roll over testing, is forward thinking in the fact that they didn't stuff the biggest motor they had in the thing but put their best at the time and attached the very simple and competant CVT to it to maximize its efficiency in a package that is simple and understated in it's design aesthetic(much more successful in monochrome in my opinion as it all comes together as opposed to paint by numbers 2-tone). I just wish the interior materials were a bit better as that is my only real criticism.

    Ford had picked the best from it's corporate parts bins initially and with the '08 has sold it out with the adoption of the 3.5l/6spd for all the simple minded folk that can't wrap their heads around a package that is quite competant in it's current guise because they don't know what a CVT is(piss poor marketing Ford) and a lower hp number(typical american I want more, more, more think because being faster than its competition at introduction is never enough for anyone) and light weight(relatively). Oh yeah and you can get all of this at a price multiple thousands less than msrp and invoice making them significantly cheaper than the competition because people haven't gotten the clue yet.

    Put your dockers on, grab your starbucks and leave your beige development house and go buy the latest hyundai/gmc/saturn/honda/toyota flavor that you will inevitably find flaw with over time just you have with the FS because it was out to market 2 years BEFORE the competition with happy owners. The competition has had 2 years to learn the market that the FS went headlong into making them a little late to the party. Ford's problem is that they have management that didn't know what to do with the segment and now they are walking around with a big spot on their suit pants where they wet themselves for missing a very lucrative and growing market segment and playing to the strengths of the package they introduced initially.

    Is the FS perfect, no, none of them are but you pick your poison and move on.
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    No, the Freestyle is being replaced by "Taurus X", so there would be no point in having both models there. The auto shows are there to highlight the newer models.

    They had a Freestyle at the Houston show. Maybe somebody decided to drive off with it. :D
  • jrocco001jrocco001 Member Posts: 17
    New Acadia owner...I'm getting about 20 mpg mixed city/highway. Not bad at all for such a big vehicle...I'm sure it will be more on a long highway cycle after the engine breaks in, but don't expect much better in the city. I'm not fond of the transmission - it shifts into higher gears way too soon. I understand there is a recall for this issue to re-program the transmission control module...all the other owners on the discussions boards love it (says it makes driveability and performance much better). I've yet to have it done, but wonder how it will impact real world MPG.

    And...no offense, freealphas...I have nothing against the Freestyle, but you must have the only car out there that does better than its EPA ratings....if you're getting 30 mpg @65mpg then good for you...but frankly I think you need to re-measure that. You're doing better than a 4 cylinder Honda Accord, which is much lighter and more efficient than the FreeStyle.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    i agree w/ freealphas 100%.
  • Actually, there are lots of people who do as well or even better than the EPA numbers. I usually exceeded the EPA numbers, whether I was in my Mazda Millenia or 4 X 4 Ranger or Audi TT or, going back a few years, my Olds Touring Sedan.

    If you notice the tests done in Autoweek, it is not that uncommon to see auto testers (who are not likely to feather the throttle) as often as not meet or come close to the EPA figures. If anything, the EPA numbers, even before the 2008 changes, are conservative for many models. In fact, I doubt I have had a single vehicle that didn't exceed them when the weather and roads and traffic conditions are all good.

    I think part of it is how people drive. If I go 66-70 (which I usually do on the interstates because I like good mileage), absolutely everyone goes flying past me. Why anyone thinks an EPA figure obtained on a cycle going 45 - 55 should approximate anything at 80 is beyond me. Wind resistance effects rise exponentially at higher speeds. The other factor is how loaded down some of these 80 mph missiles are. If you have 4 people are lots of stuff aboard, you're just not going to see high mileage. Same if you weigh 300 lbs (not that there's anything wrong with that, but bigger people come equipped with more mass).
  • freealfasfreealfas Member Posts: 652
    My mpg is not the only one, look around the posts for the FS and you will see a lot of people agree with what I'm saying and some of them even have the AWD as mine is FWD which has proven more than capable through winter and all.
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    Wind resistance effects rise exponentially at higher speeds.

    That's a common mischaracterization but the drag force actually varies quadratically with speed - not exponentially. :)

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • passat_2002passat_2002 Member Posts: 468
    I've gotten 31.1 MPG on Interstate highway with my 2WD Freestyle. No mountains and no wind. 62MPH/100KPH. Cruise control on.
  • jrocco001jrocco001 Member Posts: 17
    Well, that I can certainly believe.

    And I'm sorry - I do not mean to question anyone's honesty. My point (not very well said) is that the 31/32 MPG Freestyle posts seem to want to compare it on this basis to all the other vehicles' EPA numbers, which seems to me to be a little unfair. 31 MPG at 62 mph on a level highway with cruise control seems plausible (and very good for a vehicle the size of the Freestye). However, that seems to the ideal driving condition for maximum mileage, and not what one would likely get in more normal conditions, which the EPA cycle tries to estimate.

    Most cars will exceed the EPA estimate in ideal conditions. My last vehicle usually got 2-3 MPG better than what it was rated when cruising at 70mpg on long trips.

    For the sake of comparison, I'll try to report in on the Acadia once I've broken it in and had a chance to take a longer highway trip (although I simply can't drive 62 MPH on an open road :)
  • passat_2002passat_2002 Member Posts: 468
    "I simply can't drive 62 MPH on an open road"

    You're like most people then. But it wasn't that long ago that the national speed limit was 55MPH. 62 seemed perfectly adequate, and no cop was going to stop you for driving at that speed. 63-65 was a judgement call. Anyone who insisted on driving over 65 spent a lot of time on the shoulder of the road with their license and registration in hand.
  • arumagearumage Member Posts: 922
    Many states are moving some straight highway speeds up to 70mph. I know Texas does on some highways. It makes it hard to hit that mpg sweet spot without someone giving you the finger. :P
  • Yes, our driving culture is strange. Seems at times to be a license to be discourteous or obnoxious.

    Granted, American drivers are some of the very worst I have encountered anywhere (unable to back up and resume going forward without a big pause, unable to exercise simple evasive maneuvers, routinely drive too fast for conditions, are unaware of vehicles around them, take corners like they are driving a loaded hay wagon, tailgate at speed but can't seem to merge at speed into expressway traffic, cut people off, yada yada), but nonetheless, so many feel an entitlement that is totally unwarranted, and a tendency to yell or flip the bird even when when they are at fault.

    So someone drving in the right lane at 65 should not be penalized by the impatient guy who discovers the left lane is even more tied up at the moment...so Mr. 65-on-the-right must purposely be trying to impede his progress.

    Left lane bandits are another story, or another example of typically incompetent American driving. Whoa, did I get off topic. Let's all try to be both a bit more tolerant out there, and a lot more alert...and now we resume the CUV discussion. :)
  • arumagearumage Member Posts: 922
    I try not to get angry at those driving the speed limit or higher. I save my anger for those driving way under the speed limit and those pulling some of the maneuvers you described.

    In many other countries, it is harder to get your driver's license and costs alot more money. It's also harder to get your license back after many driving transgressions. Many Americans also view driving as a right, rather than a privelege.

    Quick question: Has anyone with one of the CUV's listed in this forum actually towed anything yet? I'd like to hear what some people think as I will be doing some light duty towing from time to time.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "The Edge has the same drivetrain and gets 18/25 miles per gallon. The 3.5L V6 is also heavier than the 3L V6"

    The Edge is also 400 lbs heavier than the FS.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "Many states are moving some straight highway speeds up to 70mph. I know Texas does on some highways. "

    New Mexico and Arizona have 75 MPH limits on Interstate 40. Believe me, with 40 miles between cities, you need that speed... :shades:
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "Left lane bandits are another story, or another example of typically incompetent American driving. "

    Not really. There is no law requiring one to move to the right hand lane, such as there is in Europe. So those people are perfectly legal (if a bit frustrating). :mad:
Sign In or Register to comment.