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SOA Warranty Problems & Questions

bogey5bogey5 Member Posts: 35
edited March 2014 in Subaru
I have a 2006 Outback with 18,500 miles. The first 7,800 were driven by a Subaru employee (factory car). A week and a half ago in anticipation of an 800 mile round trip I checked all the car's fluids. All were fine with the exception of front differential. I added 1.3 quarts of mfg. specified gear oil.

Arrived at destination with front end noise. Took the car to the nearest Subaru dealer who confirmed noise but said it would take them a week to fix it. Called the selling dealer who said DO NOT DRIVE call Subaru 800 number.

After discussion back and forth, SOA told me to get a quote to flat bed the car home 388 miles at 3.00/mi. Said they would pay if warantable repair.

Called the local dealer to say that I would leave the car with them and would retrieve after repair. Was told that they could not fix it in a timely manner so I should take SOA up on their offer to pay for transportation.

Transported the car to the selling dealer (even though there were four other Subaru dealers in the area where the car was located.) Without ever looking at the car he said that it would be $1,500. And they had no idea why SOA would authorize that expensive a tow.

Selling dealer called to say that the car had bad bearings in differential they were on order and car would be done the next day. Servise manager called back to say that the first call was a mistake. The co. rep had determined that the gear oil was wrong and they would not cover repair.

More than a week later the car sits at the dealership and I'm not feeling a lot of love from Subaru or the selling dealer.

Any thoughts?
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Comments

  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    We are going to need to crawl thru this for more details before passing judgement.

    I have an older OBW, so things might have changed depending on what tranny you have (4 or 5 spd auto, 5 spd manual). Making an assumption that you have the 4 spd auto, a full fill of the front differential after a complete drain is around 1.25 qts, IIRC, of 80w-90 gear oil. This is the little dipstick back along the firewall.

    If you put 1.3 qts in, then either it was completely empty to begin with, or it is now grossly overfilled. Also (assuming same front diffy as I have), did you use the correct gear oil?

    What did the dealer that confirmed the noise say it was?
    Why did the selling dealer say it would cost $1500, when the drivetrain is covered by a 5yr/60k warranty?
    Did you get a rejection from the area rep with an explanation in writing, clearly stating their findings and reason for rejection?

    Steve
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I'm going to have to agree with Steve, something doesn't sound right here at all. Need more details before we can help you.

    -mike
  • bogey5bogey5 Member Posts: 35
    Went for oil change at an oil change store and was advised that Subaru recommends changing front and rear differential oil at 15,000 miles. They did not change the diff. oil. Until then I wasn't aware that the car had a front diff. So I went looking for it. When I found it I pulled the dipstick three times to find just a trace of fluid on the bottom. I bought api gl-5 80w-90 gear oil as recommended by the spec's and put some in, checked the stick, put in more and checked. Back and forth checking the stick and putting in oil until it was full.

    Prior to that I had had no noise or trouble with the car. There was no leakage before or after from the diff.

    I took the car to the closest available dealer in the other city and was told it would take them at least a week.

    Dealer to first inspect it said it was warranty and based on that assessment I finally agreed to have it transported.

    If in fact the diff was empty, why was it empty? There was not and is not now any indication of any leakage.

    I own a my04 OBW too and my son owns an older Legacy. I've had no problem with the 04 but it came from another dealer.

    I hate to be cynical but I'm wondering if the factory rep looked at the $900. transportation charge on top of the $1,500. repair and decided that it was too much.

    Additionally others have suggested that the $1,500 is retail and SOA wouldn't reimburse the dealer that much or as quickly as he can get my check. From the very beginning when I called him from 400 miles away I had a sense by the way he talked that he was predisposed not to find a warrantable problem.

    I cannot tell you how much I am hoping that I am off base and that we can work out a solution because I am now concerned about warranty coverage on both OBW's and don't want to face a similar dilemma in the future.
  • bogey5bogey5 Member Posts: 35
    Forgot to mention that it's a four speed automatic. Basic 2.5.

    Have not received an official rejection letter from the Co. it was verbal from the service manager. If cannot resolve it I will ask for a lot of documents including a copy of the 152 point check.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    It is often the case that the AT stick is pulled rather than the diffy stick when filling the front diffy. The Front diffy is also integrated into the trans housing so it can be an internal leak, instead of one you might see readily.

    As for the tow home, I'm still not sure why they would agree to it, as the contracts clearly state that it is to be fixed at the closest dealer.

    Also if your diffy was low, and it was under warranty, why didn't you bring it to your local dealer when you noticed the problem? That is an indication that there was a consumption or leak associated with the front diffy.

    -mike
  • bogey5bogey5 Member Posts: 35
    ...after I found the location down next to the firewall on the opposite side from the AT. After filling it I checked it the next day and it remained full. After detecting the noise after the trip (about 500 miles)I had an oil change place check all the fluids (AT, oil, front and rear differentials)and they were all full and clean Then I called the nearest local dealer.

    Took the car to the dealer at 8:30 a.m. the next morning. They again checked all of the fluids and drove the car. I cannot say if they opened the differential. They didn't say and I wasn't in the shop to observe but told me it would take a week to fix. I can't imagine that they could diagnose a problem that would take a week to fix without some kind of detailed investigation. Their invoice indicated that they had confirmed the noise, confirmed that there was no problem with fluids and it was a warranty claim. They also said that they believed that I "might" (a qualified might)be able to drive it home and then have the selling dealer fix it.

    I reported earlier the selling dealer's response. DO NOT DRIVE IT because we won't warranty it.

    I don't believe I'm being unreasonable but it's quite evident to me that there were a number of mistakes made,maybe the selling dealer was going to replace the fluid under the "152 point pre-sale prep" and forgot to refill. Maybe Subaru never put it in in the first place, perhaps the first dealer should have agreed to keep the car and repair it. Perhaps I should have insisted. Perhaps I should have taken it to the selling dealer rather than adding fluid myself.

    I think there needs to be some inherent reasonableness in this whole situation. If the first dealer had said it will take a week, we'll give you a loaner it's inconvenient but we'll do the best we can. So be it. Or if Subaru had said we'll pay for transportation because we want your car back with the selling dealer warranty or not. Again, so be it. But this is strange.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Some of the blame may lie with you in that upon discovery of the low fluid, you should have brought it to the closest dealer for repair, or at least to check it out. I never mess around with warranty work. At the very least I would have left it with the dealer that originally diagnosed the problem, as that's how the warranty works. I also don't believe you are entitled to a loaner car under the factory warranty.

    -mike
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    ...after I found the location down next to the firewall on the opposite side from the AT. After filling it I checked it the next day and it remained full. After detecting the noise after the trip (about 500 miles)I had an oil change place check all the fluids (AT, oil, front and rear differentials)and they were all full and clean Then I called the nearest local dealer.

    How did you know th fluid was "clean" unless they did a drain and fill, I belive the diffys have a magnetic plug that will collect any metal shavings so the fluid will likely look "clear" even if you sheared off a piece of the diffy.

    -mike
  • bogey5bogey5 Member Posts: 35
    quoting the dealer invoice, "all fluids were checked and no problems were found."

    I don't know what a dealer does to come to that analysis.

    And I did try to leave the car with them. There response was that they didn't want to turn away business but they didn't think they could fix it in a reasonable time and I should take Subaru up on their offer to reimburse towing.
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    I assume that your car is still sitting at the selling dealer awaiting a decision on how to proceed.

    Now that we have asked questions, and you have provided reasonable sounding answers, you need to collect all this data into one complete flow and get it to SOA for their review. I assume as you have been talking to someone at SOA (1-800-subaru3), and that you have a case number. Get an email address or fax number, and send in your full description (situation, dates, places, names, etc.). Request a review and official response as to reason for denial.

    Steve
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yep, call the 800 number to get everyone one the same page. They should coordinate with the dealer.

    -juice
  • bogey5bogey5 Member Posts: 35
    Received a case number within a hour of having returned from the first dealer. And yes it has been sitting at the selling dealer for ten days. There doesn't seem to be any sense of urgency on their part or SOA.

    As a matter of fact SOA was on the phone with the first dealer at least twice before the dealer decided that they didn't want to repair it.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Call them again for a status update, and also ask to speak to a supervisor.

    Let them know you're part of the Edmunds.com Subaru Crew community, and that we are all tracking your case closely. Hopefully that'll motivate them.

    -juice
  • bogey5bogey5 Member Posts: 35
    Thanks everyone, I sincerely appreciate your concern.

    So that I don't mislead anyone I DO have some faults. At least according to my wife.

    1.I'm patient to a fault.
    2.I trust people
    3.I believe what people tell me even if there is evidence to suggest I shouldn't.
  • mrk610mrk610 Member Posts: 378
    OK wait a minute here . On post 4 he said that he took it to a oil change place.Did you discover the diff empty before or after you had the service done there. I have read on this board and others that those stores have emptied the trans or sometimes the front diff instead of the oil. I go to a local place for all the oil changes on the CO vehicle's I work for . I have seen with my own eyes them drain the wrong fluid . I'm wondring if they drained the front diff by accident and forgot to fill it back up . The diff plug is by the back of the engine and could be mistaken for the oil drain plug .
    Just a thought.

    Mike K
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    Oooh, good catch, Mike! That would explain why it took 1.3 quarts.

    If I remember the sequence right:
    1) Quick Change place reported that diffs should be serviced, but did not actually report them as low.
    2) Customer drove home (how far?), did some research, found the front to be low, and filled it up (full amt, as though it was empty).
    3) Possible damage from dry running very evident after long trip.

    All this makes sense as to the initial cause. Fault probably lies with Quick Change shop. Certainly difficult to prove, unfortunately, but logical. How does it play into the response from selling dealer / district rep? As they probably do not knowing all of the above, what explains their actions?

    Steve
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,762
    I also don't believe you are entitled to a loaner car under the factory warranty.

    I had my '07 at the local dealer for warranty work last week. They called late in the afternoon to "ask" if they could keep it overnight. I told them fine, as long as they provided me with alternate transportation. They did (free of charge), but it was an '05 Hyundai Accent with POS slicks on it. Real chore to drive that tin can around after coming out of that Outback. :P

    I am unsure if I was "entitled" to a loaner, but I asked and they gave me something. It was sure a lot better than walking for a day.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Ding Ding, I think Mike K is correct. I hadn't followed it that closely but yup that sound exactly correct. If I were a betting man I'd put my money on it.

    -mike
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,762
    I was coming to the same conclusion - glad I read through all the posts before chiming in!

    I would be very suspicious of the oil change place if your stop there was very recent prior to your checking the differential oil. It would take next to no time for the differential to seize up without oil, so it could not have been that low for very long. I have to wonder why SOA came to the conclusion that "the wrong oil was in the differential" if you filled it with 80w-90. That seems absurd. I also wonder if the quicky change place actually drained the engine oil. Makes me wonder if perhaps they realized they messed up and drained the wrong unit, but did not want to eat the cost of the fluid change, so instead of refilling it they tried to up-sell you on the differential change. When you did not go for it, they just shrugged it off. Haha, I would not put it past one of those places. :sick:

    If the damage was not caused by a drain situation, then it is definitely warranty work. I do not see how improper oil could even come into play unless it was changed out by the first dealership without your knowledge and they refilled it with the wrong lubricant.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • bogey5bogey5 Member Posts: 35
    You know that could very well be the case. And if so I'm afraid that it would mean that every time we have work done we need to confirm that it was done correctly before we leave the shop. From what I've read that even means the various Subaru shops.

    SOA finally called to confirm what the selling dealer had reported.......no warranty. What is troubling and should raise a RED FLAG for all of us is that I attempted to leave the car at the first dealer and in very polite terms they said no, they didn't want to repair it. Even though I agreed to let them keep it for a couple of weeks if they needed additional time. Again the response was "we hate to turn away business but..... take Subaru up on their offer to transport it."

    I can assure you all that I would never have spent $900. to transport the car if I had any inkling that Subaru would respond in the way that they have. Being disappointed in their service and response to my problem hardly describes my feelings at the moment.

    The problem is what do we do as consumers, as Subaru owners if the nearest dealer that we are required, under the warranty to find and transport our car to, refuses to make the repair. What should our expectation be of Subaru to provide assistance under the warranty. I was told that once the dealer said they wouldn't repair it I was on my own and that the decision to tow was exclusively mine. So what do we do, look for the best two out of three answers?

    They also said that they would not give me a written denial. That is the responsibility of the selling dealer according to them. That, even though the selling dealer had begun the repair process before the arrival of the factory rep.

    To date I haven't received an estimate of the cost of the repair beyond the selling dealer looking at my snow covered car in his parking lot and saying it will be $1,500. I haven't received anything but two verbal denials without specifics. I have learned that the warranty may well be more of a selling tool than a promise of assistance on Subaru's part.

    Finally, if in fact the oil change place "messed up" I wonder if the crank case is grossly overfilled with oil and if so can the dealer drain and measure to help me to approach the store with evidence to help me pursue it with them.

    Once again, any thoughts?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Hope you still have the receipts for that oil change...

    Someone here had Jiffy Lube drain his trans oil and then proceed to overfill the engine oil, potentially damaging both systems. :mad:

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I would have the Subaru dealer check all the fluids and start taking it up with the "quick-lube" place with the written estimate from the selling dealer for the repairs. I would also not be too confident that the quick-lube place is going to pay and in the end it may end up being cheaper and less hassle to pay out of pocket for it. However, I have had good luck with going after quick-lube places as long as you have the reciepts for damage done.

    I had transmission work done by AAMCO on an old Ford and they repaired it under warranty 4x, eventually the last place that had my car in Philly did some damage to it (burned cig hole in the seat, several scratches and dents, and a ticket in a place I had never been, and never finished fixing it properly) I contacted them and eventually after 2 or 3 months they wound up totallying my Ford Escort and their insurance company paid me out like $3k for the car. It wasn't easy but in some states if you take them to small claims court, a company is required to pony up a lawyer which will usually cost them more money than just paying out the claim.

    -mike
  • wlbrown9wlbrown9 Member Posts: 867
    Most of the Jiffy Lube and VIOC places keep your records on the computer...but it just depends on what they entered as to what is there. If they show servicing the diff in their records you 'might' have the starting point for making a case against them. They ususally will note that they have checked certain things, so if they show they checked the diff and you had to add fluid when you got home, then that might help.

    On the topic of quick lube places, I hate it when they show you the mfg calls for service ever 15K miles...that is usually off the severe service schedule. I think it is deceptive that they use that as a selling point without being clear that the 'normal' schedule would call for 50K miles and the severe schedule would call for 15K miles. Seems the older I get the less tolerance I have for BS like this :-)
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    You are indeed the victim, but I'm not sure that SOA is the villian. To be fair, if the Quick Change place really did dump your front diff, they are responsible for the failure. Of course this is still a best guess based on the history related to us. But if this is the case, to expect SOA to foot the bill is unreasonable. I think I'd be looking at small claims court as your recourse.

    This is not to say that SOA and the two dealer's actions are beyond reproach. I assume that you told the whole sequence to the dealer you encountered on the road, and that may be why they didn't want to touch the car. Or, they simply figured it out for themselves, based on experience. They didn't want to be involved in something that was going to get ugly fast. But if they suspected it was due to neglegence, especially if they told SOA and knew that the expense of a tow plus the toasted diff might end up being your bill, they should have been honest with you. You might have been able to make choices that would have minimized the loss.

    Steve
  • bogey5bogey5 Member Posts: 35
    haven't disappeared folks. Just doing some research.
  • bogey5bogey5 Member Posts: 35
    Spoke with Valvoline store manager and told him that his tech had drained the diff. Service manager at Subaru drained my crankcase and found that there were three quarts too many in the engine.

    One of you I believe mentioned how both plugs are in close proximity. The tech obviously wasn't being attentive.

    It would seem that the VOIC home office might send out a service bulletin to its stores advising them to be careful. Maybe they have.

    Meeting with VOIC tomorrow morning to present copies of bills.

    I will let you know how it goes. Thanks to all for your knowledge and advice. It seems that maybe we Pastors ought to be cross trained in automobile maintenance.
  • bogey5bogey5 Member Posts: 35
    Spoke with Subaru service manager today. Engine had three quarts of oil too many. I have an appointment with VIOC manager tomorrow morning. I have already reported to him and VIOC home office that his tech had drained the differential and overfilled the oil.

    While he offered a couple of possible explanations including the front diff. dipstick worked loose and the gear oil was pumped out, it's apparent that he doesn't believe that himself. It would seem that VIOC would sent out a technical bulletin cautioning their techs that the two plugs are in close proximity and to be SURE of what they drain.

    Thanks to all who offered insightful advice and counsel. I'm thinking maybe we Pastors don't need to be cross trained in auto mechanics after all. We just need to turn to you folks.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,762
    :surprise:

    I hope it works out for you. It sounds like, at this point, there is some measure of hope for an appropriate resolution!

    If the engine is overfilled by 3 quarts, it is quite likely that all the seals/gaskets are shot on it as well. You will likely see leaks in the camshaft seals and the valve cover gaskets, if not other locations, begin to noticeably develop within the next 3,000 miles (assuming the differential is replaced).
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • bogey5bogey5 Member Posts: 35
    I'll make sure that VIOC is aware that I may be revisiting them in the future.

    Diff is being replaced as we speak.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,762
    Hey, maybe they will give you free oil changes for the life of the car! Oh, wait.... that might only be one or two more oil changes..... :P
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • bogey5bogey5 Member Posts: 35
    Swell!
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    VIOC I take it is the oil change place?

    -mike
  • bogey5bogey5 Member Posts: 35
    Valvoline Instant Oil Change.

    I'm thinking there should be a thread somewhere for people to share their misfortunes with unscrupulous or inept service companies, especially national companies. It might help to get satisfaction if they (VIOC)knew that there was a repository of horror stories that folks could point to for a pattern of behavior.

    There are several places where I have found anecdotes about issues like mine but they require a lot of work and time to find. I even found a place where a Valvoline employee was on a site like this advising someone about how to make sure they were reimbursed by Valvoline after they blew out a transmission. He said that VIOC is scared to death of bad publicity. his line not mine.

    I don't believe in taking advantage of people. But at the same time not everyone can afford the time that I've taken to come to the correct conclusion to this problem. I think perhaps most folks would give up, pay the bill and move on. I know quite often people in my flock are living right on the edge anyway, and this kind of thing can be devastating.
  • jfljfl Member Posts: 1,396
    Hey, maybe they will give you free oil changes for the life of the car!

    But would you really want THEM to touch your car again??? :P
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,762
    I know quite often people in my flock are living right on the edge anyway, and this kind of thing can be devastating.

    Indeed. That is why it is so important to weigh the costs. Time is valuable, no doubt, but if the cost of a person's time is less than the personal financial impact the problem poses, it is worth every minute to root out the source and seek proper resolution. In this case, if VIOC was the source of the problem, it is certainly just that neither Subaru nor you foot the bill.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    I still have some problems with all of this. Anyone that has ever drained 80w-90 gear oil would know both by the thickness, volume, distinct color, and putrid smell that it was not 5w-30. Then he set the dial on the bulk tank to deliver 4.5 qts, pumped it into your crankcase, yet didn't notice the dipstick indication that there was oil up to his elbows... This guy must have been a real winner!

    I wonder about the missing quart. Probably churned into foam by the crank (splash oiling, anyone?), and sucked thru the PCV into the intake. Your cat won't like that longterm either. Perhaps you should approach Subaru with the question about the status of your new car warranty. Prepare yourself for future problems. Wonder if VOIC wants to buy the car so that you can move on?

    Well, at least it is all coming together for you. Hopefully you also feel better about Subaru as a company, although I think they could have been more helpful and more open with you about what the knew.

    I'd say that you could probably spin all this into one heck of a sermon about men, machines, and community support!

    Steve
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Those places put a funnel up near the drain hole, and probably avoid the fluid as much as they can. If they're uninformed enough to use the wrong drain, I'm sure the thickness and smell would not stop 'em.

    -juice
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,762
    I wonder about the missing quart. Probably churned into foam by the crank (splash oiling, anyone?), and sucked thru the PCV into the intake. Your cat won't like that longterm either. Perhaps you should approach Subaru with the question about the status of your new car warranty. Prepare yourself for future problems. Wonder if VOIC wants to buy the car so that you can move on?

    Great point, Steve. I have a feeling this one is going to haunt the car for a long time to come. Bogey, if you do find yourself keeping the car, make sure that everything is documented.

    I also feel like SOA, or at least representatives of it, do know much more than is being let on. They need to share that information with you so you know what to expect (and what to watch!) in the miles and years to come.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • bogey5bogey5 Member Posts: 35
    I'm preaching Sunday on the parable of the Good Samaritan which all of you are!

    Visited with mgr. of VIOC this morning and informed him that I expected reimbursement by next Friday (that ought be interesting). Gave him a list of all the folks who would be receiving packages of information about the events of the past two weeks. Included the AG consumer protection unit, small claims court, DMV division that issues repair shop licenses, BBB, and if that wasn't enough the local news channel.

    I am a man full of loving kindness.........but don't mess with my Outback!! Also informed him that I was holding VIOC responsible for engine work that SOA denies under warranty as the result of the overfill.

    The car comes back home Monday. I'll keep you informed.
  • bogey5bogey5 Member Posts: 35
    I should add that the info packets will go out if he and VIOC don't demonstrate a real sincere sense of urgency.
  • mrk610mrk610 Member Posts: 378
    Yea I like your wording .Don't mess with my outback.
    I would have your dealer give you something on how bad it is to run your engine when over filled . Then "TELL" the oil change place that they will pay for any damage.

    Mike K
  • bogey5bogey5 Member Posts: 35
    Just received a phone call form the local Valvoline magr. They are reimbursing for the entire amount, $2,755. If I can get the final invoice to them by tomorrow they will have a check for me by Wednesday. They will also acknowledge responsibility for repairs that Subaru denies under warranty if that happens.

    I have apologized to dealer for my frustration and a call to SOA is next. I'm still a bit disappointed in the $900. tow bill but perhaps SOA will look at it in their after action report under lesson's learned.

    As for me if I ever have a circumstance like this again it's a rental car with a hitch and a U-Haul flat bed.

    I believe that this conclusion in large measure was because of the help of all of you.

    Thanks Steve, Mike, Mike K and Juice and anyone else who offered valued opinions.

    Pastor Steve
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yay! :)

    Call your insurance and see if you can add tow coverage to your policy. It's a lot cheaper than AAA.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Glad it's working out!

    Uhaul truck + trailer has been more than one track-driver's way of getting his wrecked car home. Heck I know a few hondah guys who have put their civics in the back of a uhaul box-truck to bring it home after crashing it!

    -mike
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    Hey, another Steve! We are all very glad to be of service. Call it a hobby of our to listen, dig and share. And just maybe we will get brownie points with the big guy for being Good Sams! (just kidding...)

    And it works all around. I posted a logic interlock problem I am having with my Honda Odyssey over on a dedicated Odyssey site, and got some suggestions. I relayed it to my dealer, who called me back an hour later after he had talked to the electrical tech to ask for more details. Said it made good sense, and they would check into it. So we keep the chain going!

    Steve
  • acdialacdial Member Posts: 4
    We were planning a trip to Miami for the Super Bowl, and our 2002 3.0 LLBean Outback (48000 mi). We took the car in on Monday to our regular mechanic for a whiny noise, apparently the s-belt. We got an oil change etc. The s-belt was replaced the next day (Tuesday). On Wednesday, there was still some noise, so back it went, but we were told the belt was just new. Thursday AM we drove south. The whining noise was very loud - you could hear it over the radio.

    When we stopped for burgers and gas, I could smell the car. When we went to back out of the burger joint, the car jerked violently. I knew the transmission was shot. It would go forward so we searched quickly for mechanic. We found one. He pulled the differential dipstick and said "It's burnt up". I asked "Does it need fluid?" He said "No, it's got plenty of fluid." He said I might be able to limp it sliowly further (bad idea).

    It died a little later. We had it flatbed towed to the closest approximate dealer (it was a near threeway tie). We were still covered by the powertrain warranty.

    SOA indicated they would help. The Subaru dealer (in Savannah, GA) took a look and said the front diff was burnt up. They rented us a car to continue our trip the next day. Eventually on Friday, we spoke with the dealer. The car repair wouldn't be covered by the warranty.

    Why? Because, according to the mechanic when he drained the differential, only a cup or two of fluid came out. He also didn't see any apparent evidence of leaks.

    Based on those observations, my warranty claim was denied *by SOA regional rep Ed Lucksic.

    The mechanic didn't measure the volume that came out, nor did he retain it. Just eyeballed it in the 30 seconds it takes to drain it.

    The mechanic makes that statement, and, sight-unseen, Subaru denies my claim stating "Given that you had the oil changed recently, we believe your mechanic drained the wrong fluid."

    They *believe* that's what happened. Can they demonstrate that?

    So I spoke with a couple of mechanics (mine in Cary, NC), including the Subaru one, and the Service manager, Mark Naman. I asked our mechanic if he may have pulled the diff plug accidentally. He said that may happen, but if someone did, there wouldn't be *any* oil left in there.

    I posed the question to the Subaru mechanic in the precense of M. Naman - If you pulled the diff plug, how long would it take for it to drain? He said "less than a minute". I continued, "If you pulled the plug accidentally, could you quickly screw it back into prevent it from draining all the way?" He said "No way. By the time you realized it was the wrong drain, it would all be out." So I asked, "Then how can we assign the loss of fluid to my mechanic pulling the wrong plug?" That was met with silence. Mark Naman, the Savannah service manager tells me he relayed that to SOA (Ed Lucksic the regional rep, and Kevin Shumaker, a superviser in NJ). I spoke with Kevin a bunch, and he said "That makes sense, but still denied". We have requested everything in writing.

    When speaking to Kevin and Ed, Ed accused me of "grasping at straws at what might have happened" and that I should "just pay to get the car fixed, or get it off the lot." I asked to speak with Kevin's supervisor, Renee Fricke. She wasn't overly available, but eventually called back stating "It is not possible the oil got out any other way than my mechanic draining it."

    So when I left Savannah a week ago, I was given the estimate of $3022. Today, I received a call that it was now going to cost $4700, with the explanation that when the diff burned up, it caused the transmission to overheat and that now has to be replaced as well. Gears are torn up, etc.

    Now, Naman keeps telling me my mechanic has insurance that will cover this (not unlike VOIC/bogey5's situ), but will it? Why wouldn't they deny his claim?

    Does the warranty work like this: I have to prove it was a mfg failure? Does SOA have to show it was some other cause from neglect, or abuse,etc. The NC Lemon Laws clearly state that under express warranty, that the mfg has the affirmative defense (not sure what that means) if it is shown that the nonconformity is from neglect abuse etc.

    Doesn't "shown" indicate some level of proof other than mere supposition?
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    That 1 cup of fluid that came out when they drained it when getting repaired was probably the risidual left when the initial place drained it. The fluid in the diffy is considerable thicker than motor oil. If there is no leak in the diffy and there was little to no fluid in the diffy, why should SOA be saddled with the bill?

    My guess is that the mechanic doing the oil change pulled that plug instead of the oil plug, realized it and put it back in. Figured it was the Automatic trans fluid and the small amount that came out wouldn't be noticed since ATs have 7-10quarts in them.

    I'd let the mechanic that did the oil change be responsible for it as that is the only logical reason for the failure.

    -mike
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,762
    No, this time around, I am not so sure that is the case. Keep in mind here that the "whining" noise was present prior to taking it to the mechanic in question. Granted, how that mechanic came to the conclusion that the "s-belt" - is that the serpentine timing belt? - needed to be changed, I have no idea. So, the failing on the part of the mechanic was to not diagnose the problem correctly and, what is more, to recommend an irrelevant "repair." Sorry, but belts do not whine. They might squeal, but no whining - bearings whine (and sometimes crunch!).

    Second question - why would the later mechanic have said the differential fluid was full if, indeed, it was not? The only basis that person had to judge was the dipstick, so if the dipstick was within the "safe" zone, how could it have ended up nearly empty in the interim without a significant leak having developed?

    I think I would find out exactly what failed in the differential. It sounds to me like it was a bearing - hence the whining sound.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • acdialacdial Member Posts: 4
    While that's an interesting observation, mike, why would there be 1-2 cups of residual? That's not how the Subaru mechanic (nor our shp) said it worked. The car had been driven into the shop, so it isn't likely it had time to pool up like that.

    The diff only holds 5 cups. 20-40% is a lot to still be left behind after draining. And any diff oil coating the interior should still be coating the interior unless someone flushes the diff. - which hasn't happened. In addition, the mechanic didn't measure the amount that came out AT ALL> He guessed - I don't think that's enough to invalidate a warranty. If he measured the amount and said only a cup, I might be more sympathetic, but it flowed out. If it took 10 seconds, it's one cup, 30 seconds it is three cups. Should I be responsible for $5k worth of damage off a "guesstimate" by a guy who was barely paying attention?

    I think the burden of proof for Subaru is a bit more than that.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,762
    Agreed. If they admit that there was fluid in there, and yet did not retain the fluid, then that cannot possibly be grounds for refusal. Amazing, really. As routine as warranty claims must be for any auto manufacturer, it is surprising how sloppy they behave.

    I will remember this with my car, and if anything major turns up I will insist on being present for "inspections." Hopefully, though, this incompetence is not as widespread as it would seem from reading the entirely of the thread here! :P
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
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