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Right To Repair - A Hot Issue or Big Problem?

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Comments

  • 0patience0patience Member Posts: 1,712
    Absolutely. At teh risk of coming off as an advertisement.........

    http://www.alldatadiy.com
    $24.95/year for the first vehicle, $14.95/month per additional vehicle or renewals.
    This is the same factory information that shops have.

    Another site is Autozone.com, there is a ton of repair information on that site, but you have to search it pretty good.

    Check out Steve's page.
    http://www.carspace.com/guides/Online-Repair-Manuals
  • rockfish1rockfish1 Member Posts: 113
    Thanks for the site info.
    I have found that some tech forums on specific models can provide pretty good repair help. I have been successful asking questions about Saturn ION and Dodge Grand Caravan.
  • 0patience0patience Member Posts: 1,712
    The one word of caution about vehicle specific sites.
    Remember that most of those sites are enthusiasts, not mechanics.

    So use a bit of caution in what information you often get.
    There are so many times that the group of guys, I deal with, run into people who were told to replace this and that and find out that they should have done the diagnostics instead of listening to people who are weekend mechanics. A prime example is several people who post a reply to a check engine light to check the gas cap.

    While the gas cap loose can turn the light on, that is their answer for everything.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think the vehicle specific sites are much better for asking about the LOCATION/PRICE/FAILURE RATE of components than they are at Internet diagnostics. It's hard enough diagnosing a REAL car in front of you, much less trying to do it remotely.

    Sometimes I go to the automotive section of Yahoo Answers just so I can butt in and say "NO DON'T DO WHAT'S POSTED HERE!!!"

    But here at Edmunds, the advice tends to be far more sober, even if it sometimes leaves something to be desired. People are trying to be helpful and that is commendable. It's up to the car owner to judge the offerings.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    They had a brand new Trek, gas powered, motor coach and the "Check Engine" light was on. I was asked of my opinion.

    First, I made a visual check under the hood and the only thing I could find was the coolant overflow was needing fluid. After adding some H2O to the overflow container, the "Check Engine" light was off. You're right, visual 1st.
  • 0patience0patience Member Posts: 1,712
    But here at Edmunds, the advice tends to be far more sober, even if it sometimes leaves something to be desired.

    That is where quality moderation comes in.
    ;)
  • rockfish1rockfish1 Member Posts: 113
    You are correct with using caution and common sense on some of the vehicle specific site but I have benefited with actual fixes at times. The last "Great" info I received was for my daughter's '04 Saturn Ion that had an intermittent starting problem. By reviewing the history on the Saturn site for fans I was able to find multiple hits on the same problem. I asked about it and was given part numbers and complete instructions. It cost me about $30 to fix this problem.

    I agree with you that you can not just blindly follow somebody's suggestions. You do have to do research and use a lot of common sense but for some problems that seem to be endemic with a car these site specific forums are helpful.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Most experienced techs will say test this part, or ask questions, in an effort to narrow the possibilities. And many people will just guess which part is the problem, and do no testing to verify the part is bad. This is referred to as "throwing parts" at the problem. This can be a very costly practice, when you keep guessing the wrong part.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    you can't assume anything. You can't even assume that the new part you just took out of the box was good.
  • rockfish1rockfish1 Member Posts: 113
    While you can't assume anything, when you research your symptoms and

    Find multiple sources pointing to the same problem.

    The same part is ID'd - the ignition switch.

    When I get the part from Saturn and the parts guy says yet we have lots of those.

    And when the part is replaced the problem is solved.

    I am happy :)
  • doofus54doofus54 Member Posts: 21
    Auto companies reap the rewards by selling cars.They also reap rewards by selling the rights to their technology to the makers of the tools independents need to remain competetive.The last thing we need is another monopoly to enable dealers to screw us even more than they already are for what should be simple, cheap repairs.Like thirty eight bucks for a twelve inch long rubber boot. Disgusting.
  • srlech2srlech2 Member Posts: 1
    Hi i have a question you mention none of the devices mentioned will repair SRS airbags. Do you know of any devices that will reset GM airbag control modules? i have been looking all over for about 6 months and cannot for the life of me find a tool that will reset the modules. i have people that claim the tools do it and a salesman will come down to the shop and try to reset it and i end up sending them home without a sale...

    steve
  • 0patience0patience Member Posts: 1,712
    The OTC Genisys scanner with SRS module and the OTC Tech 2 scanner will do SRS and ABS.
    Both these units are $3,000-4,000

    The other option is the OTC3762 Air Bag/ABS Scan Tool which is about $1500.

    The Tech 2 is made for GM, so it will do far more than just airbags.
  • photog1photog1 Member Posts: 2
    I HAVE A 01' DODGE DAKOTA 4 DOOR 4X4. I WAS OPENING THE D/S WINDOW AND I HEARD A BANG AND THE WINDOW JUST FELL DOWN. I REMOVED THE PANEL AND DISCOVERED THE GLASS WAS OUT OF THE TRACK AND THE CABLE WAS LOOSE. I PRETTY MUCH FIGURED OUT HOW THE WHOLE THING WORKS EXCEPT THE CABLE ROUTING. ALSO I'M NOT SURE WHAT KEEPS THE WINDOW FRAME UP. I SEE THE CABLE PULLS DOWN ON THE FRAME BUT WHEN YOU RUN THE MOTOR THE OTHER WAY THE CABLE GETS SLACK AND THE FRAME DOSEN'T GO BACK UP UNLESS I PUSH IT BY HAND AND KEEP TENSION ON THE CABLE. COULD SOME ONE PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW THIS WORKS AND WHAT I NEED TO DO TO CORRECT IT. I'M AN AIRCRAFT MECHANIC SO I UNDERSTAND MECHANICAL WORKINGS, I'M JUST NOT FAMILIAR WITH THIS SET UP. ANY HELP WILL BE GREATLY APPRECIATED.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    You may want to try finding a Dakota specific forum. It would greatly increase the chances of someone with experience seeing your post, and being able to give advise. Good luck
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    photog--elroy is right, this ain't the place for you. But I'll direct you to a topic that might help you, since professional technicians often visit there:

    Got a Technical Question?
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    Photog,

    Sounds like you lost a window regulator to me...
  • bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    ...the auto makers may even want to go as far as making it illegal for vehicle owners to do their own regular maintenance such as changing fluids and filters, rotating tires, etc. This is just getting ridiculous!
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    Well, I wouldn't believe anything like that.

    Fact is, modern cars are very complex and represent a significant investment on the part of the motor co's.
    Alot of proprietary info goes into a modern car.

    It is the same in alot of other products.
    Only their maker is equipped to fix them.

    Given how fast cars are changing, esp as more esoteric powerplants come along, it will be virtually impossible for a DIY'er or an Indy mechanic to fix a car,let alone service one.
  • rockfish1rockfish1 Member Posts: 113
    Where did you hear that?
    I don't know how auto makers could make anything "illegal". They could void warranties if a DIY'er tries to "FIX" or upgrade parts under warranty. As for routine maintenance prohibition, a lot of tire companies, oil changers and independents would be quite upset.
  • 0patience0patience Member Posts: 1,712
    the auto makers may even want to go as far as making it illegal for vehicle owners to do their own regular maintenance

    At one time [a very long time ago], some of the manufacturers were pushing for repairs to be done by certified/licensed mechanics, such as is done in some countries.
    But they met quick resistance by groups who pretty much shoved the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act in their faces, so it was dropped as quickly as it was mentioned.

    Given how fast cars are changing, esp as more esoteric powerplants come along, it will be virtually impossible for a DIY'er or an Indy mechanic to fix a car,let alone service one.

    I have to disagree with that. They are complex, there is no question about it, but the aftermarket tooling is keeping a fairly decent pace with them.
    Add to the fact that Indy shops are paying for that training more and more every day. I don't work for a dealer, yet I go to GM and Ford training every year.

    It is the same in alot of other products.
    Only their maker is equipped to fix them.

    But a lot of DIYers still fix alot of other products.
    There are mechanics out there who would love to require auto owners to not be able to work on their vehicles, but they are the same ones who would do their own plumbing and electrical in their house. Even though a licensed elctrician or plumber is required, homeowners are not required to be licensed in most states.
    So those types of people are hypocrites.

    They could void warranties if a DIY'er tries to "FIX" or upgrade parts under warranty

    Nope, they can't. The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act specifically prohibits them from doing that.
    They can void warranties for using inferior parts or non-approved aftermarket parts, but they cannot void a warranty, because someone does their own repairs and service, provided the repairs are done properly.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    I have to disagree with that. They are complex, there is no question about it, but the aftermarket tooling is keeping a fairly decent pace with them.
    Add to the fact that Indy shops are paying for that training more and more every day. I don't work for a dealer, yet I go to GM and Ford training every year.

    no offense, but current ford's and Chevy's are pretty simple cars compared to a BMW, Volvo, Mercedes.
    Evena Prius.

    No indy mechanic can gain the same proficiency as a dealer mechanic that only works on 1 brand of car.
    Next, there are the computer issues.
    Most lux and even soem immport makers have their own dedicated computer networks.
    You either have to buy theri machine, or subscribe to their network.
    It isn't cheap either way.
    Most indy mechanics bring us the cars that require software work,and that is most Volvo's after 2000.
    This isn't about changing oil, or rotating tires.
    That is simple and likely to stay that way.
    Fixing a broken car is complicated and getting more so every day.
  • 0patience0patience Member Posts: 1,712
    Really?
    no offense, but current ford's and Chevy's are pretty simple cars compared to a BMW, Volvo, Mercedes.

    I have Volvo Factory traiing every year too.
    I understand what you are saying and agree in some parts, but that is that mentallity that dealers have that is irritating to the rest of the industry and why the right to repair act was even started.

    As for the software work, since Volvo requires access to their main systems to reprogram, I guess they have everyone by the (you know whats). Indies can't very well do something that the manufacturer won't supply to the outside market.

    I guess I don't know anything about fixing cars, so I'lll shut up.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    I have Volvo Factory traiing every year too.

    Really? Where do you do your training?

    As for the software work, since Volvo requires access to their main systems to reprogram, I guess they have everyone by the (you know whats). Indies can't very well do something that the manufacturer won't supply to the outside market.

    Volvo will supply it. For a helluva fee.
    Most indy's can't/won't spend the money for it.
    Which is why we end up doing all their computer work.

    Sooner or later, this approach will trickle down to the mass marketed cars.
    Lux makers like Volvo, Lexus, Benz etc are at the forefront of this, but it will find its way to Honda's and Chevy's.

    I guess I don't know anything about fixing cars, so I'lll shut up.

    Relax, there are still plenty of old cars to fix.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    What I want is an OBDII cord that ends up at a USB port on my computer. I log in and Volvo tells me there are 2 new critical updates and an optional update if I want to let my 80 pound standard poodle sit in the passenger seat without triggering the fasten seat belt light. And btw, my left rear tire inflation is more than 3% different from my other 3 tires, and my plugs have 68% of life left in them based on the platinum erosion.

    Yeah, I'm old school - I guess a wireless download right to the car on Tuesday nights at 3 am would be ok. :P
  • rockfish1rockfish1 Member Posts: 113
    I would like that also BUT having all the sensors to relay that info and make it user friendly would jack up the price of the car even more than it is now. Then you have to determine if the component is defective or the sensor is incorrectly functioning. I guess everything is a trade off between paying for an intelligent car up front or paying more to try and replace parts later in the car's life.
  • 0patience0patience Member Posts: 1,712
    Really? Where do you do your training?
    Portland and Seattle mostly.
    Other times, they bring in some folks from Volvo on site to do the training.

    Volvo will supply it. For a helluva fee.
    Most indy's can't/won't spend the money for it.
    Which is why we end up doing all their computer work.
    Interesting. Beings as the programming is sent from Volvo to the dealer's computer to the vehicle through an interface. Curious as to how an independant can get Volvo to do that, when they won't even do it for large fleets who make the provisions part of their contract.

    Besides, you are using the arrogance of the "luxury" vehicle manufacturers, which is why the Right to Repair act was started in the first place.
    The idea that ONLY the dealer mechanics should be able to fix their brand of vehicles.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    nteresting. Beings as the programming is sent from Volvo to the dealer's computer to the vehicle through an interface. Curious as to how an independant can get Volvo to do that, when they won't even do it for large fleets who make the provisions part of their contract.

    Hmm.
    I don't think that you know how Volvo does their software downloads.
    Which, if you were factory trained you would know.
    Volvo uses VIDA, which is an internet based system.
    That means anyone who can access the web address, and get Volvo's operational software downloaded to their PC or laptop can use the system.

    See what I mean about Indy's not being up to spec?
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    the problem with that is that most people simply aren't savvy enough to know HOW to apply that information.
    People screw up their computers all the time because they try to change something and don't know how to do it.
    Cars are not different. They are just rolling computers.
    Imagine how pissed you would be if you downloaded, say a software update for the suspension module and you Xenon headlights went off aim. Which has happened.
    Without the proper training, you would know that you have to re-calibrate the headlight aiming.
    Volvo( or any other car co.) simply can't take the time to make their software idiot proof, or lay person friendly.
    Nor can they set up the necessary hot lines so cutomers can fix what they screw up.
    sometimes it can take the dealer days to hear from volvo baout a software issue.
  • 0patience0patience Member Posts: 1,712
    Volvo uses VIDA, which is an internet based system.
    That means anyone who can access the web address, and get Volvo's operational software downloaded to their PC or laptop can use the system.
    Yep, seems that both VIDA and VCADS Volvo will not allow downloads outside of the dealer's computers. Or at least they haven't. That was the information that we were provided.

    If that has changed in the last year, then that is good to know.
  • 0patience0patience Member Posts: 1,712
    the problem with that is that most people simply aren't savvy enough to know HOW to apply that information.
    That is arrogance at its best.

    To be honest, I pay little attention to the automotive part, mostly because trucks are what I do.
    If it weren't for the truck portion of Volvo, they'd be just another car to me.

    The whole point of this thread is the "Right to Repair Act".
    Not, "I can puff my chest up further than you".

    So, if you want to get back on track with the discussion, that would be nice. If not, then I am wasting my time with this discussion.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    It's not arrogance, its the truth.

    You are a shining example.
    Volvo Truck is completely separate from Volvo Cars.
    They have different owners,different everything.

    You have a little info, on a completely different company,and you are not applying it properly.
  • 0patience0patience Member Posts: 1,712
    Yep, I am a shining example. :P
    You are welcome to have your opinion.
    You're right, I don't know anything at all.
    I bow to your almighty knowledge of cars, you sure told me.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    You don't have to see everything the same way, but let's not make this personal, please.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I have to confess that while I am totally in favor of giving the consumer access to whatever information he wants, I'm not so sure I really support the American system of auto repair, which would allow a 12 year old to open up a garage and work on your brakes, should you choose to let him.

    However, I sure don't want another regulatory body in place, so I don't know how to solve the issue.

    Perhaps you'd require at least an automotive degree in order to get a business license?

    You can't (theoretically) do commercial electrical contract work without a license, so why can you work on brakes commercially with zero zip zilch training?

    And defense of "free market" doesn't work for me so well, because any fool can hang a sign out that says "Brake Experts" with no supervision or penalty unless they kill someone.
  • 0patience0patience Member Posts: 1,712
    I do agree with you on that point.
    State certifications should b required, just like electricians, plumbers, etc.
    Funny thing is, I had to get a license to work on LP/Natural gas plumbing on some of the trailers, but don't have to have it to work on LP powered engines.
    Makes a lot of sense.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    Which is yeta nother reason to get your car fixwed at the dealership.
    At least you know that you are dealing with licensed, competent people.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Which is yeta nother reason to get your car fixwed at the dealership.
    At least you know that you are dealing with licensed, competent people.

    Unless it is a VW dealer... :P
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    LOL! I guess he forgot the asterisk!
  • estrekaestreka Member Posts: 28
    I disagree. In the state of Texas, you are required to have an electrician license to perform electrical work for money. Unfortunately, in order to get the license, you must work for a major contractor for 12 years.
    Why you ask? Mr. Perry (of Perry Homes, THE major homebuilder in the state of Texas) is a state senator who formed an oversight committee to establish laws regarding homebuilding and engineering. Guess who chairs the committee? Yep, Mr. Perry.
    So basically, you have to work for Perry Homes for 12 years in order to go into business for yourself. By that time, you're either way up the food chain and thinking about retirement, or you're intending to be a support asset for Perry Homes.

    I could easily see the same thing happening to mechanics.
  • 0patience0patience Member Posts: 1,712
    Wow, you have some serious hang up about things must go to the dealer. Are you a dealer mechanic?
    And by the way, dealer mechanics are not licensed.
    Certified by the manufacturer maybe, but not licensed.
    Very few states require any kind of "license" by mechanics and those are DEQ certifications.

    Let me ask you this...........
    Do you ever do your own electrical work at home?
    Do you ever do your own plumbing work?
    Do you do your own auto repairs at home?
    Do you do your own carpentry work?

    If you do any of these things, you are a hypocrite.
    And I am curious. Are you referring that since I am not a dealer mechanic, that I am not competent?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think he meant "competent" as opposed to bogus mechanics operating out of backyard sheds and filthy old storefronts, not good indy mechanics.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Sorry, but what's DEQ?
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    No, I am not a dealer mechanic.
    I don't do my own plumbing, or auto repair(even though I could do that)

    You are also not paying attention to what I am saying.
    If you own an older car, taking it to a competent independent mechanic isn't a bad idea.

    For newer cars, esp lux cars given their complexity it is BEST to have the dealer service and repair them.
    Now, almost anyone can change oil, but most people cannot deal with the complex electronics of modern cars.
    I have simply seen too many people who thought they could fix their own cars screw them up.
    We had a guy who had an indy stereo company replace the sound system in his S60R, which isn't easy to do.
    Fried his entire wiring harness, which is easy to do.
    Bottom line, if you have a 10 yr old Honda, anyone can fix it. But, if you spend big boy money on a big boy car,spend a little extra and have the people who are trained to deal with it, fix it.
  • 0patience0patience Member Posts: 1,712
    DEQ = Department of Environmental Quality.
    Some states have "Clean Air", vehicle emissions testing or EPA testing.
    Depends on the state.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Thanks.
  • rlordyrlordy Member Posts: 1
    I would like to know if an 5.2 engine can interchanged with a 5.9 . Its a grand cherokee 1997 .will any of the computors- injecters-sensors have to be changed to make an the engine swap ,any advice,or facts, thank you
  • rider62rider62 Member Posts: 13
    Did you all know that the teenager computer geek at home is the latest shade tree mechanic, rephrase; the latest diagnostic troubleshooter.....better than the factory trained and ASE guys at your local dealership or independent garages!!!!!
    Why is that? uhm
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    maybe so, maybe not. The machine is only as good as the person operating it, or as they say: "Data is not knowledge".
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    Really?
    What proof do you have for this assertion?
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