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Buying a Used Sienna
I'm in the market for a mini van but not wanting to spend too much money. We found at a dealership a 2002 Symphony model for $8600. It has been very well kept, body in excellent condition, interior good, runs excellent as far as I can tell. Noticed a funny odor from the exhaust when dealer first started up that is hard to describe, but finally went away. She has 120,000 miles on her, but have been told by a mechanic it is just broke in. Your comments please, should I bring her home?
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Comments
Good running mini-van if I must say. I'll keep you posted as we run the wheels of of it.
Considering the price is so low, ask if the dealer will run it through the CPO program so that you get it CPO. Even if it adds a grand to the price, you're still getting a bargain.
An 07 LE with that package is over $25 grand.
I did some research on KBB and almost decided to buy 2000/2001 Honda Odyssey. Mainly due to it's 5 star front
crash rating plus folding rear seat. Sienna is little behind wrt these two points.
My brother who also owns a 2001 Sienna told me about this forum. I did some digging in this forum on Odyssey and Sienna. And now, my general feeling is that Honda Odyssey has more repeating problems with Engine and Transmission. Whereas I could not find very prominent and repeating problems being disucssed about Sienna. That makes me think
now I should start looking for Sienna rather than Odyssey.
Please correct me if my feeling is wrong. Also any advise about 2000/2001 Sienna is welcome.
I'd search for a later 3.3l V6 model, whenever that was introduced.
If you do get the 3.0l, ask for proof of oil changes, and consider using synthetic oil, which better protects against sludge.
Maybe spend a bit more and get a higher mileage 3.3l V6 that is newer?
No engine sludge. Previous owner changed oil regularly.
The 3.3l V6 uses a timing belt. I'm not sure about the interval for replacement, though. The 3.5l V6 they started using for MY2007 uses a chain.
Honestly? Get him to sacrifice a few options and just buy new. You can get a CE for $22k brand new, and that's with 266hp. I got an LE package 3, that has power sliding doors on both sides, alloys, trip computer, and stability control cost me just over $25k.
That plus the rebate looks like it went up for June, so he might be able to get one just under $25k new.
I know that seems like a stretch from $19k, but if you think about it the ownership costs might actually be lower. You get lower rates for new car loans vs. used. No timing belt to change, ever. 0 miles vs. 68,000 miles. And I'm sure an 07 will be worth a lot more than an 04 when he ends up selling it.
At least shop for a better price. $19k is just too close to a new one for comfort.
Would be VERY interesting to see an actual test of a 2007 Sienna 3.5L vs the 2006 Sienan 3.3L. Does the 2007 Sienna ACTUALLY accelerate any faster than the 2006 since the 2007 engine must be revved higher to develop the increased power? :shades:
The results are noticeable, too. Even the slow pokes at Consumer Reports got it to 60mph in 7.8 seconds. Another site had it clocked at 6.7, which is sports sedan territory.
Both results are substantially faster than the 3.3l managed to obtain.
Peak horsepower is only 600 rpm higher than before, not exactly "much higher" as you stated.
Not to mention the Direct Injection actually made the torque curve flatter. It makes more torque at all RPM, even near idle.
I saw a torque curve, and it was very impressive.
Sorry, hansienna, but my advice is DO NOT test drive the 3.5l model or you will go into a deep and severe depression. The new engine is much, much quicker. :P
Look like at 2000rpm it's making more torque than the old 3.3l engine did at its peak, just about.
No contest.
Oh, and no sacrifice in fuel mileage to boot.
3.3L has 215 HP at 5600 RPM / 222 Lb-ft at 3600 RPM
3.5L has 266 HP at 6200 RPM / 245 Lb-ft at 4700 RPM
Tachometer REDLINE is 5900 RPM...so the 3.5L V6 NEVER does achieve Maximum HP unless the tach is in REDLINE. :shades:
Didn't CR test the Sienna 3.3L in an WLL WHEEL DRIVE Sienna that will NOT accelerate as fast as the FWD only? :confuse:
The new 3.5L is just MARGINALLY quicker than the 3.3L if both Siennas are either FWD or AWD. :shades:
What the numbers actually mean is that the new 3.5l breathes better and maintains torque at higher rpms, while the old engine had the torque drop off sooner.
You are (erroneously) concluding that the new engine has less torque at the same rpm. That is wrong, as the graph proves. In fact it makes more torque at all rpm.
So what if peak HP is near redline? It still makes more HP than the old engine at all RPM, from idle all the way up to redline, but even at low RPMs.
Look again at that flat torque curve. It makes more torque at 2500rpm than the 3.3l did at its peak.
More torque all the time in every scenario. With no sacrifice in gas mileage.
The 3.5l wins, period. It's better in every way.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Remove your blind fold and you will see the 3.5l is a brilliant engine and far superior to the 3.3l in your van.
I think you're unhappy with your van for some reason and you've made it your mission in life to put down the Sienna, and that has made you biased enough to ignore facts like the torque curve above.
That's a shame. You seem knowledgeable and could be a good resource to the Sienna owner community, but you simply refuse to. Too bad.
Incorrect. It has MFI, but not DI.
Tachometer REDLINE is 5900 RPM
Incorrect. Redline is 6400 rpm.
The new 3.5L is just MARGINALLY quicker
Incorrect. You have not driven the 3.5l, otherwise you would not say that.
The 3.3l delivered a mid-8 second 0-60 in most publications (sources: Motorweek, Consumer's Guide). Certainly adequate, but not quick by today's standards.
The 3.5l has been clocked at 6.7 and 7.8 seconds (sources: KBB and Consumer Reports), appreciably quicker.
CR's fuel mileage was identical to their old one: 19mpg overall. No sacrifice there either.
Do you know more about the 2006 Sienna 3.3L engine than Toyota does? OR, could you be misinformed? :confuse:
Toyota states that the 2006 Sienna 3.3L engine has "Electronic, with Toyota Direct Injection (TDI)" wich is EXACTLY the same description for the 2007 Sienna 3.5L engine.
I have NEVER written that the 3.3L has more power at any RPM than the 3.5L. On the contrary, I pointed out the 3.5L must be revved higher to get maximum HP or torque than does the 3.3L.
As also written earlier, it would be interesting to have an ACTUAL comparison test of the 2006 Sienna 3.3L side by side with the slightly heavier 2007 Sienna 3.5L driven at the same time on the same course where the conditions are as nearly the same as possible.
It is remarkable that the larger 3.5L V6 in a 2007 Sienna can get the same EPA fuel economy rating as the 3.3L V6 in the 2006 Sienna. :shades:
Wikipedia says it does not:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_MZ_engine
The relevant quote:
uses Multi-fuel injection(MFI)
2nd source:
http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/kitcar/kb.php?aid=247
quote: "It uses MFI fuel injection"
3rd source:
http://car-reviews.automobile.com/Toyota/review/2004-toyota-highlander-4wd-v6-road-test/831/
quote: "sequential multi-port fuel injection"
4th source:
http://www.electricdrive.org/index.php?tg=articles&idx=Print&topics=42&article=113
quote: "Fuel System Multi-Point Injection (MPI)"
And, drum roll please, from Toyota itself:
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/environmental_rep/05/download/pdf/eco_02.pdf
quote: "Common rail fuel-injection system"
Sorry but your 3.3l engine does not have Direct Injection. :P
You say the torque curve for the 3.5l doesn't have much value, I beg to differ! It has TONS of value.
You're talking about peak torque, just one single data point.
I'm talking about the torque curve, i.e. torque at every RPM. How can we discuss torque if you're only willing to use one single data point and not all the information I posted right in front of you?
the 3.5L must be revved higher to get maximum HP or torque than does the 3.3L
To get MAXIMUM, peak HP and torque yes, but you do *not* have to rev the 3.5l to get MORE torque and MORE HP than the old engine made, enough to make the 2007 Sienna significantly quicker then the 2004-2006 models.
In other words, just because peak power happens later in the rev range doesn't mean there isn't more power available at low rpm. There IS more power available at low rpm. Torque too.
I agree it would be nice to see torque curves side by side, but as flat as the 3.5l's curve is, the 3.5l is making about 10% more torque across the entire rev range.
Has Toyota been guilty of deceit when they published their Sienna brochures? :confuse:
Why did Toyota increase the 2007 horsepower by a larger percentage than the torque when torque is THE more important item in a minivan?
Yes, actually. The 2007 brochure says the LE package 3 does not have power seats. Guess what? Mine does.
Also, the 2007 brochure says 20 gallons. The owner's manual and other sources I've seen all say it's 21 gallons.
The brochure also says the LE package 5 drops the VSC option but that's also not true.
I don't know who prints these things but the fact checker was on vacation. I find it so misleading it's not even funny.
Even the colors are off. The light blue looks too light in the catalog, it's darker in person. Even the interior color is off, it's dark in the catalog and lighter in person.
Any how, I would not be surprised to see that the 06 brochure had more mistakes as well.
Shame on whoever published those.
In other words the 3.5l breathes a bit better in the high rev range.
It's bigger displacement so it makes about 10% more torque, and that explains 10% of the HP gains. The better breathing at high rpm explain the rest of the HP gains.
HP = (torque x rpm)/5252
The 3.3l's torque dropped off sooner, so HP peaked sooner. Basically the torque drops faster than the RPMs rise.
The 3.5l torque curve is flatter, so at RPMs increase the drop in torque is smaller (less than linear) so HP increases at higher RPM.
The Sienna has NOT provided the value for the $$,$$$ spent that I got with the $$,$$$ paid for the 2002 Chrysler T&C. The Toyota Sienna and Honda Odyssey are overpriced. :lemon:
So.... I'm looking at an '06 LE with 33K miles on it for $20,990. And I'm gonna do something I should've done last year. I'm gonna compare the two. I need your help. Can you tell me honestly that the Sienna gets really good gas mileage? I really need to know that. The Sedona doesn't. To me, when I got behind the wheel last year to testdrive the Sienna, it was so familiar, and I liked that. Call me crazy, but I like knowing where everything is. I need to settle in my mind for once and for all which is better for me. The guy I talked to on the phone said that he'd try to work with me in my "upside down-ness". 'Course I'm not going alone.... 'cuz I'd probably come home with an XLE with every bell and whistle known to mankind with an $800 payment :P
Sorry for rambling! I really believe that if I'm gonna be making a car payment, it'd better be on something I like driving!
Michelle
I only have about 1800 miles, but still, my mileage has been excellent.
My last full tank I averaged 25.1mpg, and this is actual miles traveled divided by fuel used, the slightly optimistic trip computer read 25.5mpg.
We took a drive to Six Flags and for that trip we got 27.6 mpg. Then we drove from DC to Ocean City, MD, and got 28.8 mpg. Coming back, all highway, I averaged 29.8 mpg. It just keeps getting better.
At one point, all highway, speeds of 50-65 mph, the trip computer actually read 31.3 mpg, average, not instant. That dropped when my speeds picked up. That was the 29.8mpg trip I mentioned above.
If these numbers sound good, I suggest a 2007 model. You can get a CE for $22k brand new. The rebate is $1500 right now. An LE will cost a tad more, but people are getting package 3s for under $25k now, which is still great.
That's $4 grand above your budget, but remember you'll have longer warranty coverage and get it back at resale anyway.
Thanks for your advice. I saw on the dealership website the different '07s that they have there, and I have to admit that a brand-new Sienna is very tempting+they offer a lifetime warranty on their new vehicles.
Package 3 includes power seats, though the brochure says it doesn't. Trust me, mine has them, they're included.
Basically, though, you get power doors on both sides and the safety feature I wanted most - stability control. Alloy wheels and rear discs, too, so it looks good and stops nicely. Rear pads are easier to change, too.
Pkg 3 basically pushes the content from Odyssey LX levels to Odyssey EX levels, for not much money. It's a great value, IMHO.
Thanks for your advice!
Michelle
fitzmall.com
Fitzgerald Toyota has no-haggle prices, just add $99 for processing because their prices even include freight.
I actually got an e-quote from 355Toyota.com that was a little bit lower, and ended up buying mine there.
Get quotes from them, then ask local dealer to beat their prices (watch out for added fees).
It might even be worth making the trip up to MD if local CEs do cost $25k, because I think at fitz they are $22k or even less.
We are concerned about the high kms. Please let me know your comments on the milage and asking price.
Thanks, Sri.
Plus, they must be a lot of trip miles given how quickly they accumulated.
I really have no idea about the used car market in Canada, but I'd expect the 3.3l V6 to be good for a long, long time before any major rebuild, probably 200k miles. It was a very robust engine, and never had the issues the 3.0l predecessor had (sludge).
toyota has know about it for years and has not changed it yet...paid out class-action suits up to 2002 and now they words things in contracts that make it real hard to re-coup any $$$....
Not sure what you mean about "not changed it yet"? The engine has been upgraded/replaced twice. :confuse:
Also, they extended the warranty on those to 100k miles.
thank you,
kimiko
but i was wondering whether anyone been able to confirm whether edmunds is correct about the delay in the safety improvements bec toyota says the improvements apply to the whole model year, regardless of mfg date.
thanks again!
Is there any modification required to meet canadian standards?
Any more INFO on this,PLEASE
After they totaled our LE, I searched briefly for something maybe a little different, used Pilots or 4 Runners, CR-V's, nothing else made sense to me, couldn't be happier. I plan on seeing this one spin 200k. :shades:
Jason
Try E-bay motors, craigslist, etc.
After some looking around the Phoenix site of CraigsList we ended up with a '95 CE model with 24,000 miles on it. Gave the original owner $13,500 along with new brakes and Michelins from COSTCO. Total ended up around $14,300.
Doing this avoided and 8 pcent sales tax of $1080 (AZ has tax-free private party sale) and dealers fees of $400 along with their higher sales price.
We love the van! It is of perfect height so she can just slide in and out. It is very comfortable riding and our 2 young g'sons boosters easily fit.
With a bit of CraigsList research (I spent 3 weeks) and a "cash" offer via our credit Union it was a snap. Remember YOU are in control when you have cash or a loan lined up. What you are looking for is an older and LOW MILES vehicle with minimal expensive options.