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Comments
Our symptoms for the HG issue was leaking coolant, a sweet smell like maple syrup, and some smoke from the hood after driving -Yikes! We went online to search for great reviews of the best independent Subaru mechanic in the Twin Cities and found a honest mechanic who did the oil/coolant test to confirm (along with other checks).
I think he charged 40.00 to go over the entire car. There is an oil test you can order online and do yourself (read this forum) for less. We will only go to the dealership if SOA is going to help pay or a recall from now on. For example: We had a rattle sound under the hood and the dealership said it was our heat shield or something $$$$. Then we took it to the independent shop and the mechanic found that one of our deer whistles had broken off and was rattling around somewhere in the grill area. Save tons on that visit.
Not all independent mechanics are honest but with a little research (click and clack) -you might find one in your town. Hope this helps
Because Subaru says it is perfectly alright to use synthetic oil. The following is taken from an issue of EndWrench (http://endwrench.com/), a Subaru publication for professional repair technicians in Subaru dealers:
"The Use of Synthetic Engine Oil.
Subaru of America, Inc. allows the use of synthetic oil that meets the same requirements for conventional engine oil. When using synthetic oil, you must use oil of the same classification, viscosity and grade specified for the vehicle, and you must follow the oil and filter changing intervals shown in the specified mainte- nance schedule."
http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/NotSoBasic_08.08ew.pdf
You say your Owners Manual does not say "No Synthetic Oil"? On the contrary, my Owners Manual goes so far as to specifically allow it. Page 11-11 says:
"Synthetic oil.
You can use synthetic engine oil that
meets the same requirements given for
conventional engine oil. When using
synthetic oil, you must use oil of the same
classification, viscosity and grade shown
in this Owner’s Manual, and must follow
the oil and filter changing intervals shown
in the maintenance schedule."
And head gaskets have no physical connection to oil like bearings and seals, so it matters even less the type of oil used.
I saw that quote, but I don't think his opinion means anything.
I think the flaw is in the "open-deck" engine design, not the engine assembly or gasket.
http://www.grindstonemotorsports.com/tech/blockdesign.jpg
The cylinder tops float in the block, completely surrounded by space, with no steadying bridges to the outer block. This is hard for a gasket to seal forever.
The types of decks are explained here:
http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f88/2006-head-gaskets-problem-64464/inde- - - x2.html#post716946
In the new H-4 diesel engine, Subaru has gone to the semi-closed deck design:
"... the BOXER DIESEL adopts a semi-closed cylinder block deck to improve the rigidity around the head gaskets..."
http://www.boxerdiesel.com/engineering/en/index.html
BTW, do you know whether or not they're bringing the diesel to the US?
There are no published plans to bring the Subaru Diesel here, though that is probably the eventual intent. I think they are waiting on certain issues like further testing in other markets and reformulation of US diesel to avoid a urea additive injection pump.
Rats on the diesel! It would've caused me to trade now instead of waiting a few years. I like the idea of 48mpg and AWD.
The internet is literally saturated with tales of head gasket problems for Subaru engines. Head gasket problems are definitely not rare.
Call 800-SUBARU3 and be nice, see if they can help out in any way.
I had a 98 Forester for 9 years, wifey had an 02 Legacy for 7 years. Dad has a 2000 Outback, sis has an 03 Forester, bro has an 04 Legacy.
Remember these are boxers, so that's 10 flawless engines.
I'm not counting our current 09 Forester or my cousin's 99 OB, also flawless.
Problem was acknowledged by CR, internet forums etc. Yes, all brands have problems (I am not brand loyal), but this is clearly a problem with the Subaru 2.5l motor. If it wasn't a problem, Subaru wouldn't have issued the recall/extended warranty and pay 50% of repairs costs for many people excluded from the recall. So I'd say that your family was lucky.
If you count my cousin's that's 12 head gaskets.
I'm not saying the problem didn't exist, far from it. Subaru acknowledged it with a 7/100 warranty, even. Thing is, they covered 'til model year 02, so those 7 years are up even for the later cars.
What I'm just saying is it didn't affect every gasket.
There was a previous post regarding the correlation between head gasket failure and the type of coolant used. Recommending only Subaru brand coolant? Can't find that post but it might help prevent further problems.
Good luck and please keep us posted.
There is no correlation between head gasket leaks and coolant. The proper coolant is used to assure no corrosion in the system. The proper sealant additive is what Subaru believes helps seal head gasket leaks. The actual cause of the gasket leaks is movement of the unsupported tops of the cylinders in the "open deck" cylinder blocks, which the gaskets cannot endure.
Subaru has given the DOHC turbo and diesel engines "semi-open deck" cylinder blocks which brace the cylinder tops and avoids the problem.
The open deck is die cast, where the metal die is reusable. The semi-closed deck has bridges (braces) between the cylinder tops and the block, requiring a single-use sand casting for each block, which is much more expensive.
A new timing belt for $100, heck yeah!
You could have done that yourself. The filter is $40 from the dealer, or $10 aftermarket, and it is easy to remove the glove box to change filters.
http://www.logical-source.com/2004-SUBARU-FORESTER-2915.html
http://www.cars101.com/subaru/airfiltration.html
Probably, but if might plug up the fine passages in the radiator or engine. Subaru requires a specific sealant additive that they know is compatible with their engine.
Subaru calls their additive a "conditioner":
http://homepage.mac.com/smoresi/.Pictures/SOA635071.jpg
But it appears to be repackaged Holts Radweld "sealant":
http://www.holtsauto.com/products/group/repair-and-maintenance/cooling-repair-sy- - stems#holts-radweld
Use one or the other, preferably the Subaru label if you expect to be dealing with Subaru over the problem.
No on the help from Subaru though. 177k miles and you're the 3rd owner? I don't think there is a manufacturer in the world that would help an owner in that position.
At 177k miles, the condition and care are vital. Does it look well taken care of?
If the original gaskets have not failed yet, I doubt they ever will. Certainly it would have failed by now (perhaps twice).
To be on the safe side, have a mechanic check the compression on each cylinder, look for no more than 10% variance. Inspect the head and valve cover gaskets for oil leaks. Also check the front and rear main seals. Those and the gaskets are all the trouble spots.
If all that checks out OK, buy it. :shades:
So if the original gaskets have not failed once or twice before 177K, they will probably not fail after 177K. The more miles on an original head gasket, the less likely it is to ever fail.
Those gaskets belong in Guinness for the highest longevity in a boxer.
Frankly, anyone buying a high mileage car has to accept the fact that maintenance and repair expenses are par for the course. Spending money on those items does not mean the car will not be reliable, though; it just means one must prepare and plan for the regular maintenance and periodic repairs that come along with the lower initial cost of the vehicle. All cars get there at some point.
There's no perfect car.
Heck, I took our Caravan on a 12,000-mile trip last year and it had about 196,000 miles on it when we left.
I think you're right in questioning their credibility here.
Still, I sold my '98 Forester for $7 grand about 2 years ago, so a '99 in decent shape should still be worth $5-6 grand or so.
I finally dropped the belly pan and cleaned everything up...started it up and checked it 30 mins later...and saw that there was a very slow leak coming from the back lower portion of the head gasket, driver's side. Figuring it was a gravity feed return hole from the head back to the oil pan, and not wanting to spend a bunch to pull a great running engine apart, I thought I'd try a patch.
There was no good access to the spot, the only possibility was between the motor mount and exhaust. I thought I'd try the RTV copper gasket maker to seal it. I found a small wooden handle brush in the shop, handle was about 1/2" wide, and used that as a dauber and applicator to put on a 1/4" bead about 3" long. Then I took a piece of aluminum tape, cut out about a 1 1/2" x 4" long piece, ran another 1/4" bead in the center, and used the same wooden handle to press it onto the area and smooth it out, making a tight seal.
I didn't really expect this to work, but it's been clean now for several days and several hundred miles. "Good to go" the next 150k? Dunno, but not wrinkling my nose anymore at intersections.
John
So it had taken us about 1.5 years to put the 5,000 miles on which made it time to bring it in again. Last time: everything fine
This time they recommended:
head gasket leaking $3200 repair
and:
throttle body service
brake and power steering flush
1 side valve cover gasket
front and rear differential fluids
drive belt
...
all together $5000!
Given that the car only has 54,000 miles on it, i'm pretty darned surprised that it needs this much work. I talked to an independent (ie, not at the dealer) mechanic. He said it is well known that the head gasket problems continued after 2002 but that Subaru refused to stand behind later model years and cover the work. And that it is common that Subaru dealers service departments would use stop leak fluid to deal with the problem until the car was out of warranty, at which time they would tell you that it needs to be replaced at your own cost.
Given that i purchased the car 9.5 years ago, I really doubt that Subaru would give me any significant help to fix this.
---
I'm thinking of trading in the car (for a new Rav4) rather than have all this work done to it. I probably can't, in good conscience, sell the car to an individual for very much since i would disclose this issue. I'm not sure that if i went to trade in at a dealer that the problem would be identified. Your thoughts? How long can one keep using the stop leak fluids rather than getting the thing repaired?
$3,200 for the gaskets?! You should find a mechanic that doesn't smoke so much crack. Swap those first two numbers, and you'll be getting closer to an appropriate price for both gaskets, which would also include timing belt, water pump, and the valve cover gasket mentioned in your list.
If you have all that work done and pay over half the quoted amount, the mechanic took you to the cleaners. :sick:
The idea is not much different than putting a patch on a bicycle inner tube.
John
Although I haven't confirmed the location yet, I seem to be having this exact same problem. Is the patch still holding? If so I'm thinking of doing the same thing.
Let me know your thoughts.
Baher
Have 173k on this car now. Did the rear bearings last month. Other than that, have had just the normal maintenance. Clutch isn't as light and feathery as new, but still very solid. This model Forester is well put together.
John