2008 Subaru Impreza WRX

stevecebu · July 2007

I will be willing to overlook the lack of cargo room and roof-rails, for a non-compromised STI with front/center/rear LSDs.

Wow the new STI will come with all 3 LSD's? I know the EVO has that system similar to Acura along with yaw control etc...
But the STI coming with 3 LSD's you'd think they could spare one for the WRX but the STI from what I've read is supposed to come with 330HP.

I'd agree tho the STI has become the lone model in the lineup worth plunking down the money for at this time.
But the STI will probably sell for around 36 Large and you can buy a lot of nice cars for that price. The STI being one of them.

aaykay · July 2007

No longer an Aluminium hood in the 08.

ateixeira · July 2007

Well, we haven't seen pricing yet, either. So I was talking about the models we know the pricing for.

aaykay · July 2007

The current STI comes with 3 LSDs (front/center and rear), which I am hoping will be the situation in the 09 version. Also, the current STI's center Differential (called DCCD) is a whole different ballgame from the center LSD in the current stick WRX. The regular REX gets the viscous-coupling system present in the lesser Imprezas, while the STI gets a full-mechanical Planetary gear-based center diff and Electonically controlled transfer clutches with user-adjustable torque split...truly a bargain for people who know what these differences are. :shades:

lilengineerboy · July 2007

Eh, a Civic LX is like 17k and a Civic SI is like 21k. With the exception of some aero package, they look pretty much the same.

I don't think they are targeting the WRX for everyman, someone looking at the base Impreza is going to be looking at the Civic LX and Corolla, not the SI. I think the people looking at the WRX are going to be looking at the WRX (and maybe the MS3, Civic SI and SRT4, although those are cheaper). I would think the STI buyer is going to be looking at the Lancer EVO as well.

I don't think you are going to get a lot of base Impreza buyers to "step up" to a two hundred and something horsepower, premium fuel only, rougher riding, thirstier, more expensive to insure WRX. They are different market segments. I think if that is Subaru's game plan they are a bit silly.

stevecebu · July 2007

And what difference did having an LSD and the 4-pot brakes make back then?
None.
Exactly my point.

You actually have a very good and valid point. I can't argue that Subaru had great sales. I'm dubious that the new model will sell much better but maybe it will maybe people really don't want performance but a cushy AWD ride and good in snow and ok on dry pavement. Maybe the low key styling is going to attract a lot of buyers who have shied away from buying a Subaru because it looked too macho? Weird? Bug-Eyed? Muscular? I certainly liked it but I am just one customer and hey if Subaru can remove parts and still sell the car for the same price based on the new style well then that's great! I'm really not being sarcastic. I hope the new style works out for Subaru. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean it won't sell.
Most customers really have no idea about most of their cars past the size of the cupholders and lots of nifty storage bins to stash things in. Sure they know it has AWD and is great in the snow but they have no interest in how it works as long as it works.
Of course price is a factor and $25K is not cheap so there is a lot of competition but among the $25K cars not a whole lot have a good AWD system. I went with Subaru before because they at least to me emphasized performance and that was/is what I was looking for. I still am.
But subaru does need to increase their sales and not just for the first 3 months but over the long run. The older cars did not sell as many units as they want and people like me do not buy a new car every 2 years.

ateixeira · July 2007

Weird - yes. Subarus have been anything but mainstream.

The new WRX takes cues from the Mazda3 and the BMW 1 series, but in a year or two it will definitely look modern mainstream.

It won't stand out - but that's intentional. They got bit pretty badly with Tribeca sales by going risky.

The most important update is the interior. You see an MSRP of $28k or so on the old car and some people will tolerate it to get the performance, but few liked it. The new one people may actually like.

stevecebu · July 2007

Again, you know nothing about me, as is clear from this and other posts that try to belittle me. I've never been a "yes man" for Subaru. Go back about 5 years and seek out some of my early comments about the Baja. They we're highly critical of the vehicle. There were many other critical comments regarding other models as well.

I am sorry Bob, I did not mean to belittle you. I do disagree with the style of the new WRX and a few other points. But honestly I don't think poorly of you at all.
I'm sure you like a lot of other good people have given Subaru lot of input as others have given other companies over the years.
Yes my mind is made up about the styling and I'm unhappy about the stuff they changed/took off. But that's the car business.
I do apologize to you for being sarcastic to you. I tend to be that way sometimes and being mostly Scottish doesn't help that much.

ateixeira · July 2007

There's always the Forester XT for you.

I like the uniqueness of Subaru, but there just aren't enough of us for them to remain independent and profitable.

lilengineerboy · July 2007

I like the uniqueness of Subaru, but there just aren't enough of us for them to remain independent and profitable.

Hmm thats not the way BMW thinks about things...

stevecebu · July 2007

The current STI comes with 3 LSDs (front/center and rear), which I am hoping will be the situation in the 09 version. Also, the current STI's center Differential (called DCCD) is a whole different ballgame from the center LSD in the current stick WRX. The regular REX gets the viscous-coupling system present in the lesser Imprezas, while the STI gets a full-mechanical Planetary gear-based center diff and Electronically controlled transfer clutches with user-adjustable torque split...truly a bargain for people who know what these differences are.

Is it for certain that the 2008 STI will have the new system or will they rebadge the old one? I haven't read much on the new STI as very little technical info is available on it.
The STI is also a lot pricier and it's going to have to compete with the new BMW 1 series with the 135i putting out 300HP from the Turbo inline 6 and the M Sport suspension package and it's going to slot in next to the STI and EVO for a price point or close enough unless you load it with options. But no LSD in the BMW so that is a factor 300HP really needs a LSD.
The regular WRX seems like it's not much of a bargain when you figure out the price difference and 50HP is easy enough to get with mods after the warranty is expired.
In fact 224HP isn't all that much as it is. I know it really puts it to the ground whereas others just smoke the tires either front or rear.
I can easily justify spending $25K on a WRX but it's tougher to justify an EVO or an STI. It's $10K more or maybe even a bit more than that. For me to blow $35K is has to have a pretty high WOW! factor no matter who makes it. My old WRX had that. Maybe the new one will and I'll adjust to the styling. I sure could live with the styling if it was about $5-6K lower in price!

rsholland · July 2007

No harm done.

Bob

stevecebu · July 2007

Weird - yes. Subarus have been anything but mainstream.

A Major selling point for me and I like weird cars. But a Camry can't excite me unless it lays real golden eggs.

The new WRX takes cues from the Mazda3 and the BMW 1 series, but in a year or two it will definitely look modern mainstream.

No argument from me there but I see a lot of basic similarities in a lot of the 5 door hatches nowadays. Not the same but similar.

It won't stand out - but that's intentional. They got bit pretty badly with Tribeca sales by going risky.

Yes and I think Subaru might regret that decision but only time will tell. The WRX is not going to do it for me not with a loaded Lancer selling for $21K with everything including a Nav system and a 5/60 warranty. Sure it's underpowered but it looks great and gives you a lot of bang for the buck. The same with the MS3 and a slew of other cars. Price is a factor for most of us. Myself especially because I only pay cash and no financing.
Subaru might find that being a really good niche player is better than mainstream but no way to know and in New England which is my area they'll sell like hotcakes anyway.

The most important update is the interior. You see an MSRP of $28k or so on the old car and some people will tolerate it to get the performance, but few liked it. The new one people may actually like.

Yeah interiors have become the new big thing. Myself I'm more into diesel but none of the players will be on the field when I will absolutely need to buy a car.
VW doesn't count in my book as I won't buy any more of them ever again.
$28K MSRP wow I hope the interior is really nice.

ateixeira · July 2007

I like the new Lancer but the non-EVO models do nothing for me. I like the new styling but that's not as important as the fact that it shares a platform with the Caliber, at least to me.

stevecebu · July 2007

I don't think they are targeting the WRX for everyman, someone looking at the base Impreza is going to be looking at the Civic LX and Corolla, not the SI. I think the people looking at the WRX are going to be looking at the WRX (and maybe the MS3, Civic SI and SRT4, although those are cheaper). I would think the STI buyer is going to be looking at the Lancer EVO as well.

Yeah I think you're right. I do think tho that someone might pony up more cash for say a Civic SI if they looked at low end civics same as looking at low cost Imprezas they might ante up for a WRX but most people today shop by price and brand and reliability is very important. Once people find a brand they like they tend to stick with it. but when you weren't happy with your last *Fill in the Blank* car. Then you shop but price is such a big factor as are payments and The Impreza is like about $18-19K base and Mazda has a 3 around that and VW has the rabbit, corolla. etc....
Maybe someone will stretch up $20-3K if a model is really hitting their sweet spot. But if you need to stay at $20K max and I mean MAX then the WRX will be just too high to consider as will a bunch of other cars. But at $25K. You have a lot of great choices. The WRX seems to have lost a lot to th base model as someone pointed out. I'll probably drive the base model Impreza and the WRX and see if there is that much difference. Once you get into the almost $40K range the STI and EVO and a whole other range of cars but only real enthusiasts will go for an EVO or an STI. You re in BMW and Lexus country and comfort and reliability on that level really sells cars at $40K. Oh the $40K came from a forum where they were guessing the price of the new EVO. The old one was $36K for the 6 speed.
i'm glad you mentioned the premium fuel what with gas ever on the increase that will play a large factor in many peoples decisions at this price point, IMO.

stevecebu · July 2007

There's always the Forester XT for you.
Ahhhhhhhh.... runs around screaming like a madman Nooooooooo! Not an SUV anything but that! :P

I don't really like SUV's. If it's going in the dirt ok then give me a Jeep. (A Limited Rubicon in case Santa is listening.) But I like cars. I like them to look good and drive better. If I had to plunk my fat butt down on a seat for 4-5 hour drives I would want a lot of comfort.

I like the uniqueness of Subaru, but there just aren't enough of us for them to remain independent and profitable.

A sad truth, Subaru was unique.

stevecebu · July 2007

I like the uniqueness of Subaru, but there just aren't enough of us for them to remain independent and profitable.

Hmm thats not the way BMW thinks about things...

BMW makes Taxi's and cheap cars in Germany, they just import their expensive stuff here. They have a lot of $$$$ to play with and they do make great cars albeit expensive ones.
The BMW 120d 4 door hatch now that's a nice car! Lots of torque and awesome economy. Plus a hatch. The US will never see it. I drove one but not the diesel. It's pretty sweet! The new 135i coupe I can't figure out if I like the looks or not (love the 4 door hatch) but with 300HP on tap BMW will sell a lot of them.

stevecebu · July 2007

I like the new Lancer but the non-EVO models do nothing for me. I like the new styling but that's not as important as the fact that it shares a platform with the Caliber, at least to me.

Ok you've got me this time. What is the significance of sharing the Caliber platform? I haven't heard of this.

aaykay · July 2007

I think the Lancer Ralliart is the one targeted at the WRX, with AWD and a comparably powerful engine. Why should the fact that the Caliber has borrowed some of the mechanicals from the Lancer bother you ?

The Lancer/EVO are world cars engineered and built exclusively in Japan. The current ferocious Lancer EVO has become even more meaner, leaner, sharper and stiffer in the new version, if reports are to be believed. They say that the world renowned AWD of the EVO with the AYC etc., has been made even more superlative and now can make even the SH-AWD system of Honda look like a neutered rendition for sheer handling prowess. :surprise:

If the Caliber has borrowed some of the Lancer's mechanicals, then good for the Caliber. :shades:

lilengineerboy · July 2007

BMW makes Taxi's and cheap cars in Germany, they just import their expensive stuff here.

That actually supports my point, the US is a VERY small market for them and they can be extremely profitable with low volume/high mix production.

Units are units - Worldwide, BMW sold 1.1 mil units last year and Subaru sold 1.06 mil. That sounds like a draw.

lilengineerboy · July 2007

I think the Lancer Ralliart is the one targeted at the WRX, with AWD and a comparably powerful engine.

For 2008, they don't list a Ralliart, just a DE, ES, and GTS, none of which are AWD or particularly powerful (in fact all are less powerful than the Impreza). I think these are comparable to the base Impreza or Civics.

dino001 · July 2007

Units are units - Worldwide, BMW sold 1.1 mil units last year and Subaru sold 1.06 mil. That sounds like a draw.

That's interesting - so you can roughly manufacture this number of units and make them not-so-mainstream, and make good profit. Excuse of being too small company for executing off-beat vehicles simply falls. Nobody says it's easy (mind Saab, AMG, Rover, etc.) - but certainly it's doable if you have a right product. Even on the most competitive market, which US is.

stevecebu · July 2007

That actually supports my point, the US is a VERY small market for them and they can be extremely profitable with low volume/high mix production.
Units are units - Worldwide, BMW sold 1.1 mil units last year and Subaru sold 1.06 mil. That sounds like a draw.

Yes to a point, but also consider how much a BMW costs versus a Subaru and factor in discounts and everything else and I think BMW makes more money per unit than Subaru I mean the price of a loaded 7 series, How many imprezas could you buy for that amount?
it's probably close in total unit sales but overall profit I think BMW is way ahead financially they aren't all that cheap in Germany and they sell a lot of them. But the Germans like small economical cars and buy a lot of stuff we don't get in the US.
I don't think anyone will cross shop BMW and Subaru. It's too different a market. The new 1 series is very tempting but we will have to see about that. The price and release date of the EVO might factor into it.
I can only imagine how much the insurance would be for my wife to drive it!!!

stevecebu · July 2007

For 2008, they don't list a Ralliart, just a DE, ES, and GTS, none of which are AWD or particularly powerful (in fact all are less powerful than the Impreza). I think these are comparable to the base Impreza or Civics.

The rumor mill says it's coming and before the release of the EVO. If it looks as sharp as the EVO and drives as good as it should.....
Well in the long run competition is a good thing.

lilengineerboy · July 2007

Yes to a point, but also consider how much a BMW costs versus a Subaru and factor in discounts and everything else and I think BMW makes more money per unit than Subaru I mean the price of a loaded 7 series, How many imprezas could you buy for that amount?

But how many 7-series does BMW sell? How many of those are in the mix? Not that many. Its mostly 3-series cars. I agree with your point that BMW makes more per unit that Subaru. Thats because they can. They have a very efficient manufacturing process, and they have cars that are interesting enough to command a premium in most markets.

As Subaru melds into Toyota, more and more of what makes them unique goes away and the more of a commodity they become. That isn't going to help profit margins.

aaykay · July 2007

I think BMW's strength is that they have never strayed from their primary message, the underlying principle of which is reflected in their slogan - "Ultimate Driving Machine". All of their products reflect the above, without exception. They can tack on 1000s of additional dollars into their pricing strategy and their customers would snap up their products as if they are value priced.

What is Subaru's message ? How consistent are they in delivering it to their target market ? Is it a message that can command premium pricing, without batting an eyelid ?

rsholland · July 2007

Same car, but on the street, from a Dutch car site. 5 images here.

http://www.autovandaag.nl/foto.php?x=800&y=534&f=http://www.autovandaag.nl/upl/newsitem_674_2935.jpg&t=newsitem&tid=674&pid=2935

You may have to copy and paste URL.

Bob

stevecebu · July 2007

This is a breakdown of BMW's sales figures and units sold.

BMW Car Sales Report for June 2007

2007 2006

June 20,068 19,695
Year-to-Date 113,396 107,651

Year-to- Year-to-
Model June Date June Date
2007 2007 2006 2006

325i (E90 & E46) 410 1,476 4,342 25,632
325Ci (E46) 11 40 253 1,700
325Ci Convertible (E46) 5 41 455 2,519
325i Sports Wagon (E91) 0 0 0 4
325xi (E90 & E46) 27 82 1,320 8,325
325xi Sports Wagon (E90 & E46) 15 51 239 1,276
328i (E90) 4,234 25,251 0 0
328i Coupe (E92) 736 5,283 0 0
328i Convertible (E93) 935 4,977 0 0
328i Sports Wagon (E91) 117 787 0 0
328xi (E90) 1,932 11,501 0 0
328xi Coupe (E92) 308 2,852 0 0
328xi Sports Wagon (E91) 127 909 0 0
330i (E90 & E46) 55 314 1,800 9,432
330Ci (E46) 3 8 106 946
330Ci Convertible (E46) 4 27 477 2,627
330xi (E90 & E46) 8 28 1,090 5,636
335i (E90) 1,333 8,960 0 0
335i Coupe (E92) 877 5,297 0 0
335i Convertible (E93) 1,026 3,668 0 0
335xi (E90) 569 1,422 0 0
M3 (E46) 6 12 334 1,467
M3 Convertible (E46) 0 15 145 792

3 Series 12,738 73,001 10,561 60,356

Z4 2.5i Roadster (E85) - US 13 73 35 297
Z4 3.0i Roadster (E85) - US 440 2,287 920 2,731
Z4 Roadster 3.0si (E85) - US 225 1,229 486 1,420
Z4 M Roadster (E85) - US 49 238 100 525
Z4 Coupe 3.0si (E86) - US 57 393 42 43
Z4 M Coupe (E86) - US 50 356 50 56

Z4 834 4,576 1,633 5,072

525i (E60) 9 3,245 1,353 6,670
525xi (E60) 28 1,685 411 2,797
528i (E60) 1,265 2,942 0 0
528xi (E60) 630 1,361 0 0
530i (E60) 22 3,451 1,466 6,655
530xi (E60) 45 2,804 723 4,576
530xi Sports Wagon (E60) 13 407 259 1,437
535i (E60) 964 2,272 0 0
535xi (E60) 792 1,769 0 0
535xi Sports Wagon (E60) 137 284 0 0
545i (E60) 0 0 0 6
550i (E60) 559 2,709 792 3,803
M5 (E60) 193 878 195 1,891

5 Series 4,657 23,807 5,199 27,835

645Ci (E63) 0 0 0 21
650i Coupe (E63) 184 963 178 1,395
645Ci Convertible (E64) 0 0 0 16
650i Convertible (E64) 426 2,205 499 2,985
M6 (E63) 63 514 186 444
M6 Convertible (E64) 113 785 0 0

6 Series 786 4,467 863 4,861

ALPINA B7 42 188 0 0
745Li (E65) 0 0 0 0
750i (E65) 238 1,683 359 2,240
750Li (E66) 762 5,589 1,048 7,069
760i (E66) 0 0 3 26
760Li (E65) 11 85 27 188

7 Series 1,053 7,545 1,437 9,523

Z8 0 0 1 3
Z8 Alpina 0 0 1 1

Z8 0 0 2 4

BMW Sports Activity Vehicle (light trucks) Sales Report for June 2007

2007 2006

June 5,152 4,484
Year-to-Date 31,183 29,569

Year-to- Year-to-
Model June Date June Date
2007 2007 2006 2006

X3 2.5i (E83) 0 3 5 174
X3 3.0i (E83) 89 366 2,402 15,753
X3 3.0si (E83) 2,546 13,657 0 0

X3 2,635 14,026 2,407 15,927

X5 3.0i (E53) - US 46 179 1,507 10,084
X5 3.0si (E70) - US 1,475 10,935 0 0
X5 4.4i (E53) - US 55 156 495 3,048
X5 4.8i (E70) - US 940 5,878 0 0
X5 4.8is (E53) - US 1 9 75 510

X5 2,517 17,157 2,077 13,642

MINI Sales Report for June 2007

2007 2006

June 4,174 3,556
Year-to-Date 19,759 20,026

Year-to- Year-to-
Model June

dino001 · July 2007

These are obviously US figures (so high-end stuff only, no cheap(er) models).

So it just hit me - BMW has same sales volume, larger margins and MANY MORE models than Subaru (counting by powertrain varieties and body styles) - by far.

So it can be done, even by relatively small company. You just need to have right stuff and clear strategy.

lilengineerboy · July 2007

Is that just US or is that world sales? It looks like they sold 75,000 3 series and 7,500 7 series, so they sold 10 3 series for every single 7 series.

The other thing is they have 57!!! models listed for just cars, not counting light trucks (teehee I just can't think of a BMW as a light truck). I am amazed they can keep that many models straight, let alone profit from cars they only sell 4-5 vehicles/year.

dino001 · July 2007

It must be US. No low-end 3- or 5-series (w/4 cylinders), no 1-series at all, no diesel models (huge in Europe). And profit they do - perhaps not every single one, but they do.

paisan · July 2007

The chassis for the new cars is the same...

Evo
Lancer
Caliber
Compass
Avenger
Sebring
Patriot

That's the part that Juice was getting at.

-mike

paisan · July 2007

Hmm, I guess since I go out and RACE a Subaru and put it on the Podium giving them free advertising coupled with my owning upward of 6 Subarus over the years my opinion should count the most.

The 1/2+hr I spent on the phone with their engineers explaining how 200+ of their cars got stolen in a 20 mile radius of Newark, NJ in a 6 month period and how they can prevent the thefts I guess then I definitely have an opinion that could be counted more.

Or perhaps it's just my overall weight that is more

haaaa

-mike

stevecebu · July 2007

These are obviously US figures (so high-end stuff only, no cheap(er) models).

Yes, but I think it would be too far off topic to post all of BMW's sales figures worldwide. The comparison is basically because both companies have a lot of similarities yet one is booming and the other is not.

So it just hit me - BMW has same sales volume, larger margins and MANY MORE models than Subaru (counting by powertrain varieties and body styles) - by far.

Yes and i believe this is because BMW has a very purposely set direction in their corporate strategy.
Oh sure they do have problems and recalls and anything thing like any other car maker but they don't mind being in a niche market and have capitalized on it.
Subaru is still IMO floundering with what they want to be.
That's why they bounce around so much, no clear and dedicated corporate goal.
Subaru could clean up if they actually had a strategy but looking at the company over the years I've been dealing with them they make a lot of funky vehicles, ok so make really great funky vehicles and specialize in it and make solid reliability the foundation, with quirky but functional styling and be innovators instead of following the lead dogs.

So it can be done, even by relatively small company. You just need to have right stuff and clear strategy.

Yes, precisely, but they won't do it because it's very risky.

stevecebu · July 2007

Is that just US or is that world sales? It looks like they sold 75,000 3 series and 7,500 7 series, so they sold 10 3 series for every single 7 series.

That was just US sales and it is for the month of June ONLY not the entire year to date. I did include the link for it right?

The other thing is they have 57!!! models listed for just cars, not counting light trucks (teehee I just can't think of a BMW as a light truck). I am amazed they can keep that many models straight, let alone profit from cars they only sell 4-5 vehicles/year.

That's in a month, and yeah it's lot of models to keep track of but look at Subaru and when you include trip levels etc... It's quite a lot. I can post Subaru if you want but I think it was posted before.
The point is a small company CAN make it but it takes time, money and a lot of dedication to fill the niche market rather than try and beat Honda at their own game.

dino001 · July 2007

The point is a small company CAN make it but it takes time, money and a lot of dedication to fill the niche market rather than try and beat Honda at their own game.

Exactly. To be fair, there are other factors to consider, of course. For example, BMW enjoys family holding, which protects them from hostile takeover - FHI does not. There are also tons of examples of small independent companies that didn't make it, which can have a chilling effect on everyone. Margin for error is definitely very small and they know it.

To be brutaly honest, I'm not sure Subaru leaders and engineers really do have what it takes and they probably know it - hence their "bouncey" attempts from infamous upscale-schmapscale move, to inconsistencies in their lineup.

I think the biggest weakness of their leadership is they didn't let any new "strategy" (whatever it was) to really work before they got scared by early problems - instead of correcting/tweaking they run away screaming and changing direction. One thing is to recognize something isn't working (Baja fiasco, Tribeca shortcomings), quite another is scrapping everything else because of some issues that could be solved by much smaller moves.

When you're on quick sands, the last thing you want is start jerking around.

aaykay · July 2007

So that means all of the others are benefitting from sharing some of the mechanical components from the super-stiff-designed-to-outhandle-anything-else-within-twice-its-price-range EVO. Good for them !

Also, since the EVO is made with 100% Japanese componentry and comes off of an exclusively Japanese assembly line, and the others mentioned are all made in the US or Mexico, the only commonality might lie in the DESIGN of some of the mechanicals. Either way, good for them, since they are partaking the componentry design from a world beater !

I believe even the new 08 WRX has sourced its Turbo from Mitsubishi....not trying to put it down in any way, of course. :P

dino001 · July 2007

If certain design features are shared between vehicles and some of them happen be not so great, it does not mean the other must be bad, too.

Never underestimate Detroit's execs' ability to screw up. Track record shows their minds are very capable

paisan · July 2007

Not saying it's good or bad that they share stuff, just saying it's odd. Also is the new EVO all Japanese or perhaps they have farmed some stuff out to save money to Chrysler?

I never had a real issue with DSM cars over the years, always wanted a Conquest TSI/Starion and wanted a Talon TSI/Eclipse during my HS years....

-mike

ateixeira · July 2007

People love to point that out, but the Mitsu turbo is actually the weak link in the powertrain.

Note the special edition JDM models all swap out that turbo for a twin scroll or ball bearing turbos.

aaykay · July 2007

People might also point out the fact that during the core development of the new 08 Impreza, General Motors had a 20% stake in FHI (Subaru's parent company) and was the single largest shareholder and most of the design direction of the new products from Subaru (including the new Impreza), probably had GM's prodding behind them. Cutting corners, eliminating the more expensive Aluminium components, cutting out things that people would not notice right away etc., probably with an eye to using the Impreza platform as the basis for their next generation Chevy Cavalier or Aveo.

Not saying that has happened but people could always speculate, right ?

ateixeira · July 2007

I'm sure you don't actually believe that, but it was a funny point!

GM could not find any synergy at all with Subaru, none. Longitudinal layout, boxer engines, symmetrical AWD. There was simply nothing in common with any GM models.

Closest we got to that was the Saab 9-2x, and I'm sure Saab mechanics struggle to work on those to this day due to being completely unfamiliar with them.

stevecebu · July 2007

To be brutally honest, I'm not sure Subaru leaders and engineers really do have what it takes and they probably know it - hence their "bouncey" attempts from infamous upscale-schmapscale move, to inconsistencies in their lineup.

I agree but you need a leader with a vision, publicly held or not someone has to have a clear vision for the future of the company. I don't think the leadership at Subaru has that. Some new blood and forward thinking might help that but Ferrari doesn't sell many cars compared to many other auto makers but everyone knows what a Ferrari is. Subaru needs to head in that direction rather than in the direction of Toyota. The Baja was a mistake but it could have been swung around with the right people doing the job. Re-creating the BRAT didn't work for a ton of reasons and combining it with the Chevy Avalanche, another mistake. The Tribeca, well, I didn't keep on top of that one. I don't think a better interior is going to sell the WRX and considering what they took out and if it's not such a big deal then just leave it in. But the car was de-contented from before regardless of the consumers knowing it and the bland looks. This makes as someone on here said the base impreza to be a much better deal by far. You get everything but the turbo and the sport suspension well I can't say how different that is but my guess is you can add a turbo and remap the ECU and get gobs more power which enthusiasts do anyway. The suspension bits, no idea but it seems you pay too high a premium for a few more HP and almost everything else is the same.
This is NOT The way to sell higher volume. Make a full line of Rally type cars, get one on a TV show and make everyone want to buy one and keep pushing the cars abilities. Hey I owned a 1969 Charger General Lee style and it was a good car, looked great, but mine was brown, and cost $800 :P
Still that orange car became an Icon the KITT car from Knight Rider was just a Camaro and Selleck had the 308 Ferrari in Magnum, The Mustang in Bullit etc... Subaru needs an aggressive look and aggressive performance at a good price. Put it on TV in some sort of action show and of course do a lot of stunts with it. But looking like it does it's not going to impress.
Subie does have to be careful as they are small but at some point you have to make the move to go for it or be left behind. Total unit 2008 sales will tell a better story. But I don't think the profit margin will be that much greater. So maybe better than 2007 but by how much? Enough or Wow what a great year! Time will tell.

aaykay · July 2007

The Saab 9-2x had ZERO input from GM, since that was an existing Subaru product (pre-08 Impreza) in existence, prior to GM's acquiring a stake in Subaru's parent (thank goodness !

).

But as a major share-holder (part owner), who intended to make a killing from their investment (a company like GM does not do investments for charity reasons

), even without any other synergies, they almost certainly would have prodded Subaru into severely cutting costs to increase their margins, wouldn't they ? Why would they not ?

Any new products in development (like the 08 Impreza), would have been BULLS-EYE in General Motor's cross-hairs, I would venture. Thus when people speculate that the new 08 Impreza is not what it should have been, they are not being merely mean, are they ?

Removing a component like the rear LSD or Aluminium hood or replacing Aluminium with Plastic etc are obvious changes that are visible....what other changes have happened under the surface of the car, that are not as easily visible or not that obviously noticeable ?

lilengineerboy · July 2007

And now it a chunk is owned by Toyota, who doesn't make a sports car, doesn't make a turbo car, makes very few manual transmission cars, etc. :sick:

lilengineerboy · July 2007

Still that orange car became an Icon the KITT car from Knight Rider was just a Camaro

Pontiac Trans Am (Firebird), not Chevrolet Camaro, but we get the idea.

stevecebu · July 2007

People might also point out the fact that during the core development of the new 08 Impreza, General Motors had a 20% stake in FHI (Subaru's parent company) and was the single largest shareholder and most of the design direction of the new products from Subaru (including the new Impreza), probably had GM's prodding behind them. Cutting corners, eliminating the more expensive Aluminium components, cutting out things that people would not notice right away etc., probably with an eye to using the Impreza platform as the basis for their next generation Chevy Cavalier or Aveo.

Now that really WOULD explain a lot of things. :mad:
The Aveo is a 2 year old Suzuki Sprint and we have the new sprints here and they look great but Chevy is buying old cars from Suzuki! I posted a pic of the new Suzuki Swift to the Fit forum and it's an eye catcher but of course GM doesn't want that! Chevy makes good trucks and the Corvette and that's it! You can keep everything else including any Camaro's or Trans Am's or anything! Ford doesn't make a single car I'd own except for a fleeting thought about the Ford GT. But I'd rather have a Porsche GT3 over that so.... not one Ford.
US car makers have lost the plot and apparently they helped Subaru to lose their vision as well. :sick:

stevecebu · July 2007

Any new products in development (like the 08 Impreza), would have been BULLS-EYE in General Motor's cross-hairs, I would venture. Thus when people speculate that the new 08 Impreza is not what it should have been, they are not being merely mean, are they ? Removing a component like the rear LSD or Aluminium hood or replacing Aluminium with Plastic etc are obvious changes that are visible....what other changes have happened under the surface of the car, that are not as easily visible or not that obviously noticeable ?

Was I just being mean? I didn't think so and I think you've summed up what I've been saying pretty well.
GM is all about maxing profit while killing quality and reliability. Imagine if GM bought BMW, how long before the company's sales tank and it becomes second place to the Vette, which of course they would do that since nothing is allowed to surpass the Vette.
If only I had enough dosh for a Porsche 911 S....

lilengineerboy · July 2007

I thought we were talking about the WRX? :confuse:

ateixeira · July 2007

All speculation, besides, the synergy never happened, that's why the whole GM-Subaru partnership never worked at all. Subaru refused to be just another generic GM division.

If GM had even half the influence you imply they had, the 08 Impreza would have a transverse engine and we'd be seeing FWD models in the lineup.

2008 Subaru Impreza WRX

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles