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2008 Subaru Impreza WRX

17810121330

Comments

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The Sienna's AWD system, surprisingly, is actually full-time. Newer Toyota systems like what's used in the RAV4 are part-time and IMO less effective.

    Also, surprisingly, the Sienna is actually a tad lighter than the Ody. I actually liked the solid feel it had vs. the lighter feeling Ody. It also rides better, though the Ody handles better by far. It all depends on what you want from a van.

    Any how, we're veering off topic here, hop over to the van threads if you want to discuss further.
  • jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    I do think frameless windows have good advantages (supposedly allowing more metal to be incorporated to the door frame, making for easier loading of awkward objects, not smashing fingers in the door, sleeker looks). They are prone to wind noise when not properly adjusted, and rattle if they're closed partway down, both of which are minor things compared to the advantages, but I think people's perception of rattling windows as cheap construction was heard often enough for Subaru to abandon frameless windows in favor of changing that "cheap" perception to improve image and thereby increase sales.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Thinner pillars, too, which mean smaller blind spots. Visibility in the Forester was about the best I've ever seen, on any car. Yet they still managed to make it safe in crash tests.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    Yet they still managed to make it safe in crash tests.

    That was accomplished by better structural shape of the pillar itself having no "distractions" from door frame.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    In a situation where you need that edge to "win" then the cost of swapping in a mechanical LSD would be very small. As I said, when you get to the level where having an LSD will matter means you have considerable $$$$ invested and have considerable $$$$ at stake to win.

    As for "alienating the enthusiasts" means basically alienating the posers who wish they were racers. They want to be able to say "I have an LSD, therefore I'm a race car driver" when VDC would most likely serve them far better.

    I think this topic has been beaten to death, essentially the wanna-be racers want the LSD on the mid-level trim car so they can say "look I have an LSD" Real racers have the $ to get an STi or put in an LSD aftermarket or are good enough they don't need an LSD :)

    I looked at the mazdaspeed6, liked it but didn't like the transverse engine and really didn't like the fact that the Mazda folks didn't at all try to persuade me away from a LGT. I ended up with an '05 LGT 30k miles on it 5MT wagon and so far I'm having a blast with it.

    -mike
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    In a situation where you need that edge to "win" then the cost of swapping in a mechanical LSD would be very small. As I said, when you get to the level where having an LSD will matter means you have considerable $$$$ invested and have considerable $$$$ at stake to win.

    Its not a matter of cash, its a matter of classification in the SCCA rule book. I figured you would be familiar with this because of your racing past. In stock or nearly stock classes, they frown on opening transmissions and stuff. It gave the car an edge.

    essentially the wanna-be racers want the LSD on the mid-level trim car so they can say "look I have an LSD" Real racers have the $ to get an STi or put in an LSD aftermarket or are good enough they don't need an LSD

    I actually think its the opposite, I don't think most people care if it has an LSD or not, most wanna-bes just want the big wing on the STI. As far as if you are good you don't need an LSD, eh I don't buy that, its an edge, just like using P-zeros in stock tire classes instead of Michelin MXV4s. If you are good and you are racing against a group that lacks opposing thumbs, then I can understand not needing the best equipment, but outside of that, if it gives me an edge I want it.

    I looked at the mazdaspeed6, liked it but didn't like the transverse engine and really didn't like the fact that the Mazda folks didn't at all try to persuade me away from a LGT. I ended up with an '05 LGT 30k miles on it 5MT wagon and so far I'm having a blast with it.

    Yeah you found the needle in the haystack with that. I certainly wouldn't mind one of those either to replace the base Legacy 2.5i wagon we have now. I actually liked the gearbox better on the Mazda, but yeah, I concur about the engine being in sideways. Its fun when you turn on the Subie and feel the kick because the engine is in right.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Its not a matter of cash, its a matter of classification in the SCCA rule book. I figured you would be familiar with this because of your racing past. In stock or nearly stock classes, they frown on opening transmissions and stuff. It gave the car an edge.

    Actually the way that the SCCA rule book is setup is they will take into account the LSD when they classify it. Same goes for most other sanctioning bodies.

    I actually think its the opposite, I don't think most people care if it has an LSD or not, most wanna-bes just want the big wing on the STI. As far as if you are good you don't need an LSD, eh I don't buy that, its an edge, just like using P-zeros in stock tire classes instead of Michelin MXV4s. If you are good and you are racing against a group that lacks opposing thumbs, then I can understand not needing the best equipment, but outside of that, if it gives me an edge I want it.

    Tires make a significantly bigger difference than an LSD does. If you are running in a spec class then everyone has or doesn't have an LSD. I understand your point of the edge but I don't really know anyone who is THAT good that a few PSI here or there in your tires or an LSD will make or break you as a driver. Try harder :)

    -mike
  • schweikbschweikb Member Posts: 111
    Thanks for the interesting comments folks. I did not really mean to come off as anti-Subaru. I am somewhat of a solid door thunk, zero interior squeaks person. I would put up with slow acceleration, bad mpg's, anything - as long as it feels solid. A throwback to my fave "oldie" the 1960's - 1970's VW Bug. No frills, just bang the door and off u go. I have several friends who own Subaru's and I have found I tend to bash into the window corner when I get out. I am tall and my style is: stop the car, throw the door open and jump out - a couple of bruises and at least one cut later I now take it careful getting out of a Subaru. The door frame that may block vision when you're driving acts as a reminder to a guy like me that the door is there - maybe they should put little silver stars or birds on the Subi's windows like in hotel lobbies so you don't walk into them - lol!!!
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Tires make a significantly bigger difference than an LSD does.

    I concur, I think its the 2nd biggest factor in the whole thing. Early in my track driving days, I was pretty amazed at the difference between "performance tires" and R-compound tires. It was amazing. :D
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Yup, even among R-compunds there is a difference. For instance we ran the Yoko Advan A048R tires on our race car for a practice and were 2-3 seconds slower than we were with Victor Racer V710s on it.

    -mike
  • jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    "...maybe they should put little silver stars or birds on the Subi's windows like in hotel lobbies so you don't walk into them...

    :D

    p.s. Didn't think you came off as "anti-Subaru" at all. Unfortunately, the behavior of that salesperson you encountered WOULD be enough to turn potential customers against a brand. By the way, Subaru's R1, R2 & Stella in Japan also have framed windows. (But don't try to tell the salesperson that!) ;)
  • stevecebustevecebu Member Posts: 493
    As for "alienating the enthusiasts" means basically alienating the posers who wish they were racers. They want to be able to say "I have an LSD, therefore I'm a race car driver" when VDC would most likely serve them far better.

    C'mon Mike that's a pretty low thing to say and pretty much untrue. Sure not all of us track the car every weekend and not all of us have time to put in thousands of hours as an instructor but a lot of us auto-x the car.
    The LSD was pulled for whatever reason. I've been not posting as it's dead issue for me but that was a cheap shot against everyone who has made any comments about Subaru pulling the LSD.
    Unless you are making your living by racing cars and are into Rally or something where it's your livelihood then it's unlikely that you are more than a driving instructor fro track days. Yes you have more experience but still how many finishes have you had at wheel to wheel racing because that is what real racing is. The other stuff is just practice. Ask any racer and they'll tell you that. Sure you have track time but I know a few Brits who probably have easily twice as much time as you do. Track days are a big thing in the UK.
    Wheel to wheel is racing. I would never race a car like a WRX on a track wheel to wheel it's a rally car and needs ton of prep on the STI model to even think about using it in any sort of real rally.
    So don't try and make everyone who isn't out flogging their car on the track every weekend into a poser. It's disingenuous at best.
    Also mt brit friends have real race cars and they didn't always spend big $$$$$ (I don't have a UK pound symbol)
    Real race cars are very different than street cars used on the track and you know it.
    Why spend $7k+ to buy a car just to get something they had on the previous model?
    I don't think you're being fair here. :(
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    So the 5 door costs $500 more. Remember when the WRX came out the wagon was actually $500 cheaper?

    This might result in more sedan sales.

    I think it was VERY smart to keep all base prices under $30k, a real psychological barrier for a lot of folks.

    OBS is slotted between the 2.5i Premium and the 2.5i NAV models. Wonder exactly what content all those will have?

    Overall, though, looks like they really kept a lid on pricing.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    Joe Spitz posted 2008 WRX specs. It looks there will be "Sport Mesh Grill" available as either stand-alone option/accessory or in a "Sport trim package". Will have to see it first, but perhaps it's a good chance that terrible "Sebring" grille can be easily replaced by something better...

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Told ya we'd see several grille options. Only I expected them to come from the aftermarket. Looks like Subaru will offer it's own choices.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    Somebody posted on Nabisco (I think) a picture with a different grill - we then kept guessing where it came from. Perhaps that was it.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I think it was VERY smart to keep all base prices under $30k, a real psychological barrier for a lot of folks.

    Which is probably why we don't have a moonroof/leather option this year.

    I do find it hard to believe that WRXs, in general, are so much more expensive than non-turbos. The 2.5i w/NAV seems like an outright steal.

    Bob
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    Hmm.... so what exactly is "Premium Package" then if not moonroof/leather w/VDC? I think you may be incorrect here.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Heated seats, heated outside mirrors, windshield deicer, upgraded audio and aero kit. It does not include leather or moonroof.

    Bob
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    All that for two grand???? Are they kidding? :mad: :mad:

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    From their letter to the retailer:

    New for 2008 are framed windows that allow for improved body rigidity and provide for a quieter interior with better sealing for the windows.

    Weren't their frameless windows sold as better structurally and better sealed? I even bought into it, as it seemed to make sense (judging from the seal size). Now they say exactly opposite.

    Talking about spin... :surprise: I see the same salesman convincing someone to frameless windows on Legacy/Outback as more rigid and better sealed and doing exactly the same on Impreza when customer asks "why did they drop frameless windows"...

    It appears they are not free from corporate baloney...

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    Available audio/video input for MP3 players or video games (Navigation Models Only) allows for better integration of electronic devices into the vehicle.

    WHAT???!!!!!???????!!!!!!?????????!!!!!!!

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    Those without NAV come with an aux input jack for MP3 players, not A/V input, from what I've read.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    Oh - there is a difference between A/V and aux? :blush:

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • schweikbschweikb Member Posts: 111
    Exactly my point - see post #460 on 7/16 - these marketing people will sell apples one day and then sell the same piece of fruit the next day as Appleline!! Or whatever lol!!!
  • jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    A/V = 1 video input + 2 stereo inputs (L&R). Allows stereo sound plus video connection to the car's NAV screen for connecting a DVD player, video game console, video iPod, video camera, or whatever. Your car becomes a "home" theater system!
    image

    Aux = 1 stereo minijack, allows direct audio connection of an iPod or any MP3 player.
    image

    Also of note, a full-featured iPod interface kit will be available, allowing control of a connected iPod through the Impreza's stereo controls. Here's a link with all the technical details... just note that you'll be downloading a PDF by clicking.
    http://techinfo.subaru.com/html/downloadFree.jsp?doc_id=190291
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Good point, Bob, by my math the WRX costs EIGHT THOUSAND more than the 2.5i. That's one expensive turbo!

    2.5i NAV/auto is $22k. Hopefully they can build a Forester like that for $25k once the 09s come out, and that'll be the wife's next car.

    Sad to see the leather/moonroof disappear, and it sounds like Premium = AWP + 6CD change + cosmetics.

    Still, heated cloth sounds good to me. I hope the Forester 2.5i NAV is priced just as reasonably.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    C'mon Mike that's a pretty low thing to say and pretty much untrue. Sure not all of us track the car every weekend and not all of us have time to put in thousands of hours as an instructor but a lot of us auto-x the car.
    The LSD was pulled for whatever reason. I've been not posting as it's dead issue for me but that was a cheap shot against everyone who has made any comments about Subaru pulling the LSD.
    Unless you are making your living by racing cars and are into Rally or something where it's your livelihood then it's unlikely that you are more than a driving instructor fro track days. Yes you have more experience but still how many finishes have you had at wheel to wheel racing because that is what real racing is. The other stuff is just practice. Ask any racer and they'll tell you that. Sure you have track time but I know a few Brits who probably have easily twice as much time as you do. Track days are a big thing in the UK.
    Wheel to wheel is racing. I would never race a car like a WRX on a track wheel to wheel it's a rally car and needs ton of prep on the STI model to even think about using it in any sort of real rally.
    So don't try and make everyone who isn't out flogging their car on the track every weekend into a poser. It's disingenuous at best.
    Also mt brit friends have real race cars and they didn't always spend big $$$$$ (I don't have a UK pound symbol)
    Real race cars are very different than street cars used on the track and you know it.
    Why spend $7k+ to buy a car just to get something they had on the previous model?
    I don't think you're being fair here.


    Yes I am an instructor, however, I also have a race lisc. and race with NASA in both the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic. I have had my lisc. for several years. We have a full-on race car 1994 Legacy Turbo, cage, gutted, etc. We currently are in first place this season in our class PTE.

    So yes I am a REAL RACE CAR DRIVER :)

    If you auto-x or HPDE or Time Trial you absolutely don't need an LSD. Even in wheel to wheel racing, if you do it for fun then you probably don't need one either. If you are out there and are a 19 year old kid trying to break into a career as a race car driver, yeah you *Might* need an LSD.

    I'm not trying to belittle anyone, however I'm sick of people whining about not having an LSD that is not all that useful unless you are an outstanding on the cutting edge driver, which most subie drivers are not, in which case, deal with the lack of LSD and just improve your own driving without the LSD.

    Most folks who are excellent track/race drivers (Rally, HPDE, Road Race, Auto-x, etc.) will be the first to say "Yup get a POS go out there and really learn the track, learn the course, learn to make due with crappy tires, no LSD, no power, etc, then when you get the better equipment, you will be that much of a better driver"

    Heck most instructors suggest to their students that they not even us R compounds until they are at least in Group 2 or 3 in HPDE as they will mask places where improvement is needed.

    I go out and throw on a set or RE92s ever once in a while just to get myself back in tune with the car and track!

    Here is a pic of our car on-track.

    -mike

    http://www.pbase.com/paisan/teamiac

    image
    image
    image
    image
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Different strokes for different folks. The ITR was a lot quicker than the GSR out of the corners and the Focus with the aftermarket limited slip seemed to be much more stable out of the corners.

    I think the original issue is by removing this, they are in effect lowering the performance of the vehicle. I dont care if you think we are namby pansies or whatever for complaining that they are deleting a piece of equipment that differentiated it among its peers. The mainstream doesn't want a Subaru, people who want a Subaru want Subarus, and they are working hard to lose that market. They can ask VW how its working for them...
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    think the original issue is by removing this, they are in effect lowering the performance of the vehicle.

    Then buy the top Impreza trim level the Subaru equivalent of the ITR v. GSR the STi. My issue is not with what people want, my issue is that Subaru DOES IN FACT OFFER A FACTORY LSD in the Impreza, you simply need to step up to the top trim level to get it.

    You want to play, you gotta pay, same story over and over...

    Also your example of the the Focus is way off "seemed to be more stable out of the corners" This could be effected by a lot of things, of which the LSD aftermarket is probably least important, tires, suspension, sways, etc will effect how it "looks" much more. Oh and that's an aftermarket LSD so we can't really introduce that into this arguement since aftermarket LSD are superior to stockers even the best stockers.

    -mike
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    The mainstream doesn't want a Subaru, people who want a Subaru want Subarus, and they are working hard to lose that market. They can ask VW how its working for them...

    Seriously, in all reality will it's lacking an LSD really effect sales? I'm willing to bet that it doesn't effect the sales by more than 0.001%

    -mike
  • stevecebustevecebu Member Posts: 493
    Then buy the top Impreza trim level the Subaru equivalent of the ITR v. GSR the STi. My issue is not with what people want, my issue is that Subaru DOES IN FACT OFFER A FACTORY LSD in the Impreza, you simply need to step up to the top trim level to get it.

    I think the point is Mike that Subaru offered it in 2007 on the WRX but removed it for 2008 but didn't lower the price or increase the performance on the WRX.
    I'm glad you are defending the brand along with Bob, but you guys are missing our point.
    You should NOT have to go up $8K to get what came in a car that was cheaper a year before. No complaining will change that. but be sure of this Subie customers DO know this and we all can't afford the time and or money too race on a track. For me it's just plain lack of time. When i was in the US I had precious little of it.
    I think this article that was posted in another group says it all.
    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2778

    Oh and in another group they had sound clips f the EVO X on the street and it sounded like a 1980's Dodge Colt or something. My wife and i both think trying a base Impreza along with the WRX and some other brands is the way to go. Subaru has really not made me feel like I'd want their product as much as I did before. I might buy one but an $8K turbo is a lot of money and I just don't see enough extra in the 2008 WRX to justify an $8k difference and for what an STI costs I would seriously think BMW. The 135i should slot in about where the STI price point is if you don't load it with options and it will have really good performance, no AWD but still for the money Subaru is going more upscale and that's ok but even VW is dropping prices because it didn't work for them.
    Subaru will have to go back to producing edgy cars with quirky looks to get sales and mainstream sales are not what Subaru excels at. Honda and Toyota are so far ahead that it will be tough to steal away those loyal customers.
    What do you get for $25K well an Impreza with 224HP Turbo 4 and traction control and AWD or a V6 Honda accord with Honda reliability and comfort, ditto Toyota with Camry and the Impreza is closer to the Civic and the Corolla those cars are much cheaper.
    I think Subaru blew it this time. They got too excited by all the guys who didn't want the big wing on the back and I don't think Subaru will dramatically increase sales with their new tactics and retain them. The STI is a pretty limited production run car and quite expensive for what you get. I wonder if it's really anymore than new bodywork and interior or if it's really improved in the performance group. So far Mitsubishi has a hit with the EVO X with the looks but costly to buy and a limited market also.

    Also aftermarket stuff voids the warranty which matters for those of us who drive our car everyday and can't have it as a dedicated track car.
    For that matter a Formula Ford is a better buy as it's dedicated track use and cheaper and easier to buy and maintain.
  • stevecebustevecebu Member Posts: 493
    Seriously, in all reality will it's lacking an LSD really effect sales? I'm willing to bet that it doesn't effect the sales by more than 0.001%

    Seriously how much are you willing to bet and is it an even money bet or are you giving odds on it?
    Because I'd like to make some money. 0.001% is like 1 car or something in the WRX line up although if we are going to wager we'd have to figure it out.
    I think initially with it being a new model Subaru will have a boost in sales which will peak and fall off.
    Subaru doesn't really do luxury and it's a long road and they already cost a lot. yes great AWD but Joe and Nancy Average consumer don't know the difference so they buy a CRV or a RAV 4 with leather and AWD or a 4WD with a button on the dash for the winter.

    So yes I'd really be willing to take that bet. Consumers will move over to the Mitsu which are offering better handling and performance and not cutting performance for a better interior.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    Consumers will move over to the Mitsu which are offering better handling and performance and not cutting performance for a better interior.

    I will take some issue with that. Unless by some miracle new Evo's price will get to $25,999 there is no danger of losing WRX because of Mitsu. Last time I checked it was also deep into 30s, depending on trim. Evo should be compared to STI, whose specs we still do not know (neither do we Evo's, actually).

    We still don't know what the new midtrim (Raliart?) is going to look like - I bet it will have same number of compromises to make a price target.

    So Steve - don't jump all over the place. Mitsubishi looks better, indeed, but so far there is nothing from them to match '08 WRX that we could inteligently talk about.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think the point mike it trying to make it actually pretty simple:

    Subaru is trying to sell the WRX to a bigger group of consumers.

    People that buy a WRX for track purposes will likely get an STI anyway, so it simply doesn't matter.

    Therefore no muss, no fuss. If you're a true enthusiast and want a track car the STI is for you. The regular WRX is now being equipped with VDC since it's a safety feature that is FAR more appealing to a broad market, and even a requirement to make the IIHS Top Safety Pick list.

    Admit this - being an Top IIHS Safety Pick is about 87.3 BILLION (*) times more marketable than having an LSD to a mainstream, car buying public. Maybe even 87.4 billion.

    * - this is scientifically proven and verified by the laws of common sense. Safety sells to the public.

    LSD is more commonly known as a drug that the Beatles sang about in Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds. :D

    Very simple, really.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    * - this is scientifically proven and verified by the laws of common sense. Safety sells to the public

    Does it? When not so long ago Honda offered free stereo OR side airbags (or ABS - don't remember) with their JDM Civics, guess what was chosen OVERWHEALMINGLY. But trends change - yesterday it was CD Player, today it actually may be ABS, ESC, airbags, or whatever. It also varies from segment to segment. In some owners do not give s..., in others they would not touch a car that is low in crashworthiness.

    Back to WRX - IIHS HATES WRX to the point they recommended 2.5i in '06 and did not WRX, even though the latter has side airbags. Their lame excuse is "people buying those cars tend to be more dangerous anyway, so we don't recommend the car" I don't think they will suddenly have a change of heart now :cry:

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Admit this - being an Top IIHS Safety Pick is about 87.3 BILLION (*) times more marketable than having an LSD to a mainstream, car buying public. Maybe even 87.4 billion.

    LOL fair enough, I agree safety sells (we can watch the new Ford Taurus...:P) but Subaru isn't as marketable to the mainstream car buying public. It has a coarse engine and some NVH characteristics that are out of place in this segment. The styling is also far from "mainstream."

    People that buy a WRX for track purposes will likely get an STI anyway, so it simply doesn't matter.

    I disagree. I think that not having 35k to drop on a car doesn't exclude someone from being an enthusiast. I think I was more of an enthusiast with a $2000 SE-R track sl** (which did have a LSD, btw :P)than a 35k STI.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They are headed in the mainstream direction, though. On a sliding scale, the new design is less distinctive (quirky?) and will appeal to a broader audience.

    Sales are already up in Japan, so this is not just my opinion, by the way.

    Enthusiasts that don't have $35k can get a used track car. Don't they say you should never take a car to the track that you aren't willing to lose?

    Subaru would go bankrupt trying to market the WRX to this very small niche - people that want brand new cars to use on a track. I'm sure BOTH of them would be thrilled if the WRX had the LSD. ;)

    Meanwhile, the IIHS will change their tune as the WRX didn't gain any power (and competitors did) and added important safety features, namingly VDC.

    You mentioned other segments, so I will too. The CR-V has never offered an LSD, diffs were always open. Honda outsells the Forester about 3 to 1. Ouch. Forester has offered a limited-slip since MY2000. What good has it done for Subaru?

    Also, Honda made VSC standard on the CR-V, I think it was 2005 or 2006. Sales have grown, in fact so much that it's now the best-selling SUV in the country!

    Stability control sells to a broad market. LSD sells to a very tiny niche of enthusiasts that want a brand-new car for the track.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    They are headed in the mainstream direction, though. On a sliding scale, the new design is less distinctive (quirky?) and will appeal to a broader audience.

    Sales are already up in Japan, so this is not just my opinion, by the way.


    I would hardly consider Japan representative of the US market. I don't care for the '08 styling at all from the pictures I've seen, but will wait to see it in person.

    You mentioned other segments, so I will too. The CR-V has never offered an LSD, diffs were always open. Honda outsells the Forester about 3 to 1. Ouch. Forester has offered a limited-slip since MY2000. What good has it done for Subaru?

    The Honda has a better fit and finish, and better NVH than the Subaru, as well as much bigger dealer network. It has a more conventional drivetrain, and a better repair history.

    Enthusiasts that don't have $35k can get a used track car.

    So then you agree that Subaru alienated this demographic, if you are suggesting enthusiasts need to find a used vehicle as opposed to the new WRX?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You missed my primary point - the CR-V advantage grew when they started offering VSC. It continues to grow. VSC helped sales.

    When Subaru added a rear LSD in MY2000 sales were flat, and they've been flat since. The LSD didn't help sales.

    Every point you made existed back in 1998. I'm talking about Honda widening the gap.

    Finally, yes, Subaru alienated both of the people that want to buy a brand new $25k car for the track.

    With VDC, they will bring back thousands that crossed Subaru off their list for lacking the most talked about safety feature from this decade.

    Before you offer yet another rebuttle - I challenge you to answer a very simple question.

    What do you think is a bigger selling point for more people - LSD or VDC?

    The choice is obvious.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    You missed my primary point - the CR-V advantage grew when they started offering VSC. It continues to grow. VSC helped sales.

    So did making the CD player standard.

    Every point you made existed back in 1998. I'm talking about Honda widening the gap.

    Right, and Honda has had 3 redesigns since then to Subaru's 1 redesign. They also STILL have a much bigger dealer network, more inventory, etc. CR-Vs aren't flying out of the showroom because of stability control.

    With VDC, they will bring back thousands that crossed Subaru off their list for lacking the most talked about safety feature from this decade.

    Given that its 3 years from being mandatory, I don't think its a super advantage. Hopefully on the "sporting" applications they will take a cue from the MazdaSpeed6 and others and make it defeatable.

    I think there is a big risk in going "mainstream" for Subaru, as I pointed out, it didn't work so well for VW in the states.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    I agree with you on point of LSD - it will likely have very little impact on sales on its own. What is much more bothering is the combination of "going generic" with lagging feature content.

    When they offered quirky product for the almost-fanatic following, it was forgivable not to include certain "semi-standard" equipment in your aspired segment, even as option, or making some "funny" trim choices (to name a few lacking areas). Those people were willing to put up with that just so they have something unique and otherwise excellent. When you go mainstream and STILL insist certain stuff is not important (like "who would want leather, sunroof, HID lights", etc.), it's a kiss of death. Your following is gone, but those who you tried to attract aren't coming. See Mazda and Nissan in late 90s.

    I'm just afraid that's what may just happen now to Subaru.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    So did making the CD player standard

    Show some data to back up your claim? You're just saying that. What year did they do that? They did that a looong time ago and sales only spiked up recently, so I disagree.

    Honda has had 3 redesigns

    Wrong, they've had 2.

    VW didn't go mainstream, VW went premium. Sort of the opposite. They could not compete at the same price to they fled upscale in price. It was a big mistake for the People's Car to leave the mainstream, actually. Bad example.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    Subaru tried premium, too, didn't they? Of course you can't even call it "trying", as it lasted whole two years or so.

    As said before - now it seems they are trying what Mazda and Nissan dis in 90s and failed MISERABLY. Lets see how Subaru will. I don't hold my breath, although it is possible they learned something from those lessons.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Show some data to back up your claim? You're just saying that. What year did they do that? They did that a looong time ago and sales only spiked up recently, so I disagree.

    So sales spiked recently when the new model came out? Hmm.

    Honda has had 3 redesigns

    Wrong, they've had 2.

    1996-2001/2001-2006/2007+ (arguably the 2005 model was also a redesign, as they updated the body, changed the windows, and modified the drivetrain- which is also when they added DSC)

    VW didn't go mainstream, VW went premium. Sort of the opposite. They could not compete at the same price to they fled upscale in price. It was a big mistake for the People's Car to leave the mainstream, actually. Bad example.

    A Jetta starts at 17k, a Passat starts at 23k, that seems pretty mainstream, especially compared to Suabru pricing.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    A Jetta starts at 17k, a Passat starts at 23k, that seems pretty mainstream, especially compared to Suabru pricing.

    Only after they decontented them after realizing that fully loaded $25K Jettas and $30K+ Passats weren't selling.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Only after they decontented them after realizing that fully loaded $25K Jettas and $30K+ Passats weren't selling.

    Which was a recent phenomena in the first place. A 2000 Jetta 1.8t was about the same as a Impreza 2.5RS at the time.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yes, Subaru's Premium push was something I opposed from the beginning.

    So sales spiked recently when the new model came out? Hmm

    The new CR-V came out and jumped to IIHS Top Picks list. Forester is on that list too, but with a big (*) - models with VDC only. :P

    Honda has had 3 designs total, but 2 REdesigns. There was the original 97-01 (RAV4 came out in 96, but the CR-V arrived here in 97). The first re-design was the 02 model. The 2nd re-design was the 07 model.

    The 05 was not a redesign. It was MMC, mid-model change, a face-lift only. They did not change the windows, nor did they change the drivetrain. They installed the 2.4l engine in 2002 and kept the same engine, same AWD system, it was not a redesign.

    VSC is a stand-alone thing for Honda, as proof note that some JDM models got it sooner than 2005.

    When the Jetta came out they priced it too high. VW learned their lesson and dropped prices and content with the value priced model. They corrected their mistake.

    Even now, go price a VW with 4Motion.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,162
    Exactly - but VW wanted "more" and in their quest for higher margins they tried "upscale". Jetta sales plummeted, Passat wasn't doing great either. They came back (unhappily) to their "middle road" niche and started selling "value editions" in larger numbers than really wanted at the first place.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

This discussion has been closed.