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Which Porsche to buy
I've had 911's since 1970. All were air cooled with 6 speed.
Last one was a 98 cab. I am going to buy a 2008 when they come out. Price is not the primary consideration.
Which one should I get, 911, a turbo, 2WD, 4WD, Tip or stick.
I know it makes a difference as to what I want to do. Not racing, just as great car to drive aggressively, if I feel like it. I am an older guy so I think I've had all the clutching I need but will I be disappointed in the automatic? Is there really a big difference between 2 and 4WD? Do you need to be a real speed nut to go for the Turbo?
I'd like your comments. Any options I should get and those to forget. Also are you concerned that Consumer Reports could not recommend Porsche because of reliablity problems? Have you heard that the 2008 will have some body changes and maybe engine and transmission too?
Last one was a 98 cab. I am going to buy a 2008 when they come out. Price is not the primary consideration.
Which one should I get, 911, a turbo, 2WD, 4WD, Tip or stick.
I know it makes a difference as to what I want to do. Not racing, just as great car to drive aggressively, if I feel like it. I am an older guy so I think I've had all the clutching I need but will I be disappointed in the automatic? Is there really a big difference between 2 and 4WD? Do you need to be a real speed nut to go for the Turbo?
I'd like your comments. Any options I should get and those to forget. Also are you concerned that Consumer Reports could not recommend Porsche because of reliablity problems? Have you heard that the 2008 will have some body changes and maybe engine and transmission too?
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Comments
Phil Hill
If you are, I am not worthy to respond.
If you aren't, you might want to ask your namesake. If he isn't available, my opinion is that I certainly like my C2S Cabriolet and, given the choice, would only consider trading it for a C2S coupe. I would not use the power of the Turbo and I'm not a big fan of the heavier AWD versions. (And, if you are THE Phil Hill, you certainly don't need AWD in Florida).
One thing's for sure, you should be able to use your name to get a hell of a discount.
Phil
Thanks
Andy
I have a 6-speed manual and have never thought for a moment that DC area traffic warranted a Tiptronic. A friend's 996 Turbo had a heavy clutch that was tough to modulate, but the 997 911S is smooth and easy. It really comes down to a personal decision and I've always driven sticks - now that I'm a few days from 50, I probably always will.
I still think you need to use your name for a discount. Let the dealer take out an ad, "Phil Hill bought his 911 here, who's next, Michael Schumacher?"
slk32amg:
The 996 911 (and comparable Boxsters) had a history of rear main seal leaks (RMS). Not sure of the frequency, but an out of warranty repair would be very expensive - in some cases requiring engine replacement. I've heard mixed reports of whether or not that was completely cured for the 997, my dealership has yet to see one come back for it. If you get a 996, you might want to either go for a Porsche certifeid used car or get an extended warranty. Also, from what I understand, the 996 GT3 and Turbo models were not affected by RMS leaks. But they would likely be above your price range. The 993 model was unaffected - but late model 993's cost more than older 996's.
I would not get the tiptronic - you will probably regret it. There is a great article on Inside Line about their test drive of a red C2 cab with Tiptronic.
Hard-core but not for Porsche puritans:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Followup/articleId=115627
If you can, wait until the new F1 style clutch comes out if you absolutely do not want to shift manually. I do not know if it is planned for 2008 MY or 2009 MY. Rumor mill says it will be available on the 2008 MY Turbos.
2008 MY is slated for the newly tweaked front and rear ends. There are photos on Rennteam. Nothing too dramatic but I do not like the changes (esp the rear) but judge for yourself. Also, you never really can tell from spy photos so I'll wait until I see it in the flesh before I finalize my opinion.
Don't get the 4WD unless you plan on driving in bad conditions a lot. It adds weight which affects performance.
If everyone paid attention to CR we'd all be driving around in Camry's and Prius'. I had my last Porsche for 6+ years and it was very reliable. My only problem with the 997 is that a spare tire is no longer standard. I added the spare tire option to my order so I can have it with me on longer trips where delays are not an option.
I haven't heard anything either on the 997. Too soon to know, but at least you'll have the full warranty if they need to put another engine in there.
I think the Turbo and GT3 uses the dry sump engine which may not suffer from this possible issue. Need to check up on that.
Costs appear to range for a 50k-60k mile car around $55k to $65k for the 996 Turbo, and about the same cost for 35k mi Carrera.
Which one would you buy if cost is nearly the same?
If I go with the 996 Turbo...
Reviewing the forum, the only key item to look out for is the "rear main seal leak"...what part of the engine is this actually on? Do you need to take it into a dealer to check or simply look underneath as soon as the engine runs and look for a drip?
Are there any other key items to check or have a dealer inspect for a 996 Turbo(especially if the car is 1500 mi away)? How about the two turbos and intercoolers? These are expensive replacememt items. How long should they last if serviced properly and not abused? How do you check their condition?
All advice is greatly appreciated to speed up my first Porsche find! Regards, Elmar
The 996 Turbo is faster than the 997 Carerra S, but up until about 80+, not by a huge margin. On the other hand I personally like the handling and RWD feel of the 997 Carerra S. The Turbo, with the sport suspension, may match the handling of the 997, but at the expense of your fillings. You should really try to drive both cars to decide which you prefer.
The 996 Turbo does NOT have the RMS leak issue, as I understand it. The 996 Turbo uses a different engine, as does the GT3, and from what I've read, do not have that issue. On the other hand, out of warranty repairs on a 996 Turbo could cost you a bundle. Unless money is not an issue, I would try to find one at a dealer with a Porche certified extended warranty.
The mileage you are quoting seems high - I've seen very few 4-6 year old Turbos advertised with 50k+ miles. More typically, 5,000+/- per year. Neither have I seen any 997's advertised with over 25,000 miles. My 2005 Carerra S at just under 14,000 miles is considered average, according to my dealer.
Before you spend a nickel on anything, drive both cars. Very different, IMO, and a matter of personal preference.
What about the 993 and 997?
I think that is geographic, because it doesn't appear to be true in my area (DC). The Tiptronic is a $3,420 option that, at my dealership and others in the DC area, seems to result in the car being worth LESS than a 6-speed on the resale market. At least with respect to the 997 911S and 996 Turbo models. Even the Cayman S with Tiptronic is a tough re-sell in my area.
Also, I would agree with you that all of the 997's are fast. But, that said, the performance "penalty" for the tiptronic is about the same as the "gain" in going from a base model to an "S". I respect that for some, the convenience is worth it. But for anyone who has driven a super-stiff clutch 996 Turbo and thinks that's what a 997 911S would be like, you owe yourself a test drive. The 997S 6-speed is as easy to modulate and use as any I've driven.
There isn't a bad (or slow) choice in the 911 line-up - just get the one that's right for you.
philhill
The old words of wisdom apply here " If it ain't broken, don't fix it ". If the RMS was such as easy fix, the issue would not haven been beaten into the ground here on this forum, as well as all the others. My understanding is that if the seal is not placed in perfectly " square " it will leak. The Porsche company has replaced complete engines under warranty on the RMS issue. Even if it leaked just a little, you'll probably burn more oil that you'd loose; I don't care how good your mechanic is, you never get the car back to original factory fit once things have been removed.
These are just my opinions from varied experiences with mechanics... that's why I always change my own oil, Jiffy Lube won't cut it.. People will tell you that the 997 has resolved the RMS issue, ( I have an 06' C2S ) that will yet to be seen. Again , the little ditty about opinions....they are just like a-holes everybody has one. Good luck
CHromedome...enjoy the car, they are a kick!!
A man after my own heart. Have you changed the oil in your 911 yourself? If so, can you refer me to any source for directions?
As a side note, we were at our second home over Memorial Day and when driving my old 1995 Nissan Maxima, I got pulled over for an expired inspection sticker. As I was fumbling to get the registration card for the officer, he saw my "Mileage Log" book that I kept in the glove compartment and asked to look at it. As he looked at it, he commented, "My God, you've changed your own oil in this car 42 times??". With that he let me go with a warning, but only with my promise that I would call him first before I ever sell the car. (The car has 155,000 miles and runs like new)
Yep, oil changes. As my 2 children were in college and my wife and I were spending far more money on the " 2 girls " than we spent of ourselves ( we are now "two" and hense my Porsche ownership again...YES!!!), I had one car with 186,000 miles and the other with 165,000 miles..giving both to charity as the result of religious oil changes. Renntech.org has a DIY section with complete instructions for 997 oil changes. Actually the easiest oil change I've ever done. Drain and filter are within easy access, the only necessity besides the correct wrench to remove the filter canister is a large capacity oil drain pan ( obviously ). The only issue of caution in my opinion is to center the oil filter sleve carefully and do not over tighten the oil filter canister housing, other than that it's easy. Renntech s direction supplies illustrations, so it's a no-brainer.
Good luck,
Chromedome
Was all set to buy a new Cayman-s, but a low mileage C4S-'03 is available,would that be a better choice for the north east.appreciate your advise.Thanx
Between your choice of a new Cayman S and 2003 C4S, there are a lot of factors to consider - new car warranty, comfort, preference for the way the car drives/feels, etc.
You should drive the Cayman or a Boxter for some distance to check the comfort, especially if you are 6' or taller. The seat simply does not go far enough back, and cannot recline like a 911. If the Cayman fits, you can find a heck of a deal on 06's.....they are taking a hit.
Regards,
BH
Of course, there is a number of people who still prefer the air-cooled ones, which ended in 1998, type 993. Interestingly enough, the 993 looks pretty much close to the current 997 models, which are the 911-types from 2005 till now. If I would go for an old, air-cooled one, I would probably opt for the Strosek body, as it would add a very different look and thus make it more "special". Let us know what you have decided, or at least, I would like to find out.
In case you are still looking... Each 911 generation has its own personality and all provide a great driving experience. The 996 although a “water cooler”, is more comfortable and slightly bigger than the preceding generation. I would stay away from 99-2001 MY, Porsche had some difficulties with rear main seal leaks, an expensive repair if out of warranty! For 2002 and up the 996 was revised with a new front fascia (looks better in my opinion) wider track, turbo headlights, much better exhaust sound and more HP. I have owned several 911's and again, they are a blast to drive. I like my 02 for its looks comfort and power. By the way the 02-04 MY is not completely off the list when it comes to RMS failures, mine is on its second RMS. Whichever model you choose insist on a pre-purchase inspection by a qualified independent Porsche service center or dealer. Take your time looking , there are enough 996 models out there so can afford to be picky. Good luck
I got about 10.5% off my 2005 911S Cab 2 years ago and have been happy ever since. Enjoy your ride.
Actually I am surprised that they didn't discount it more...
Back when I bought (September 2005), it was a lot easier to get a bigger discount on a loaded 997 than one with minimal options. And when you look at resale values, a base 911 holds its value considerably better than a loaded one, especially one with customized interior colors, etc.
So I commend anyone disciplined enough to go for a black base C2 coupe at $67k. And if the Florida dealer had any sense, he might have looked at swapping it for a loaded, lighter color 911 up north. My dealer had a priswtine 2005 black/black C2 coupe with 20k miles with minimal options that sold for $59,500 as soon as it went on his lot. Friend of mine went to look at in on a Wednesday and by the time he took his wife back on Friday, it was gone.
One other question for this esteemed group: When I was at my local dealer looking at a 2003 911 cabo which was right next to a 96 911 cabo on the showroom floor, the dealer informed me that the cars were the same price - $50k... why would I want to pay $50k for a 96 911 cabo with 50k miles on it when the 2003 with 20k was the same price - what am I missing in the logic here?
Thanks
Many would also argue that the 993 is better built. Higher quality materials and sturdier (pre-CAD) design make for a Porsche that is over-engineered and will likely perform and last longer than the 996.
Look at the used Porsche market to see how much in demand clean 993's are - they command a price premium over the newer 996, in spite of their age and mileage. The 996, like the Boxster, is something of an also-ran in the Porsche lineup - there are still a lot of enthusiasts who think that it isn't a real Porsche unless it's air cooled.
Thanks.
While it is true that many long time "enthusiasts" prefer the 993 to the 996, a big part of the resale value equation is supply and demand. I don't have the actual production numbers handy, but at the time they introduced the 996, Porsche also considerably ramped up production and export of the 911 to the US. It's a lot harder to find a pristine 993 than a 996.
The 993 was the last of the air cooled 911's, giving it a sound and feel that is more "raw" than the 996. However, in actual objective perfomance, the 996 was hardly a step backward. In fact, the power and torque of the 996 Turbo exceeded what was possible in an air cooled engine, and allowed for modifications which further increased the output. A friend's former 2002 Turbo, with some "easy" modifications, had 550 hp and torque at the wheels. It was capable of 0-60 in the mid 3's and a sub 11 second quarter mile, both on par or ahead of a Carrera GT and well beyond what could be achieved in a 993 Turbo. Not much in common with a Honda Accord in that ride.
Subjectively, the 996 got knocked for perhaps the worst design revisions of the 911 evolution. The "fried egg" headlamps, narrower rear end (on non-turbo models) and a few other design features made it look less distinctive and attractive than the 993 in the eyes of many, yours truly included. Fortunately, the 997 regains the round headlings, wider stance and a much improved interior over either the 993 or 996.
As a classic, semi-collector's car, the 993 will likely continue to retain its value better than the more prolificly produced 996. But if you are looking for a car to drive daily rather than to take out on weekends to Porsche car club events, I think a 4-5 year old 996 (with an extended warranty) might be a better bet than an 11-12 year old 993. Especially if they are the same price.
Lastly, the other urban legend is that Porsche quality suffered, post air-cooled 993. The 996 did have the RMS leak problem, but that should be able to be warranteed over, if you are considering a 2003 model. But, with an 11+ year old 993, as well built as it was, you are on your own for repairs. And it has only been in the last 2 years that Porsche replaced Lexus in the top spot on JD Power's IQS list.
curious to hear peoples thoughts on this.
The Cayman S is a great car. If you are single, and/or never want to carry more than 1 passenger, it would certainly be a fine choice. And now with 295 hp, it narrows the gap a bit. But the 911 is a great car and I have never looked back. Test drive the heck out of them. It's really a decision only you can make.
well after 7 months in my bmw 650, I still long for a more sporty feel. I am wanting to get into that 911 now.
I have never owned a porsche.
have had 4 bmw's and one MB.
My question is which 911 is recommend. I need a daily driver and wanted the manual, if not too much a hassle.
Also, don't like the convertible look, but am considering the targa versus C2.
Any advice would be appreciated.
thanks,
Steve
The Carerra and Carerra S are Rear Wheel drive, and the Carerra 4 and Carerra 4S are All Wheel drive.
The difference between the S and non-S model is 30 HP and a few standard features.
All 4 of these models are available as a Coupe or Cabriolet. Only the 4 and 4S can be had as a Targa.
Spend about 10 seconds at www.Porsche.com/usa/ and you'll find all of this info (plus a lot more).
I have no direct knowledge of whether the parts availability or reliability of one is better than the other. But if you are considering a 20+ year old car as a weekend cruiser, I would suggest researching it yourself, to make sure you don't end up with a 1+ ton paperweight in your garage. Maybe you could check with your local Porsche Car Club of America to get some info/referrals.
I am in the market for a used 911 in the $35K range.
Since I was a kid I always wanted one and now I have finally saved up enough cash to take leap but I do not know much about the various models and the pros and cons of each.
I want one that I can drive on weekends and that will give me the least amount of mechanical problems.
Can you please recommends which models I should focus on and the best places to look online for them?
Thanks,
D
How much of a "leap" are you prepared to take in terms of maintenance and potential repairs?
$35k is a fair amount of money to spend on a used car. But that's only part of the story with a 996 model 911. You have fairly expensive routine maintenance requirements and the possibility of significant repair expenses. An earlier air cooled 993 model is a better "classic", and generally reliable, but still poses the potential of significant reapirs and parts are often a multi-week wait.
My recommendation is that you budget $40-$45k for a car, find one to buy for $35k and put at least $5k, if not $10k into an unexpected repair fund. A Schwab or Fidelity checking account pays 4-5%+ interest. If, over the course of ownership, you do not deplete the fund, great - you can carry it forward to your next car. But at least you won't be dipping into juniors college fund or some other account to keep the car on the road.
Saving up just enough to buy a used $35k 911 and then being upset when you have an expensive brake job or clutch replacement is no fun. You should be in a position to enjoy such a discretionary purchase.
Last recommendation is to get on a first name, friendly basis with a good Porsche mechanic and have them do a pre-purchase inspection of the car. The first expenditure out of your repair account should probably be a case of beer or nice bottle of wine for the mechanic. Hopefully, you won't see him frequently, but it's good insurance to have someone in the wings that isn't going to take you to the cleaners.
I'll cut to the chase - the 911 was hands-down my favorite. The 944 Turbo was a better performing car - faster, easier to drive harder, great suspension/balance, etc. But the 911 had that rawness to it and all the other intangibles that you can't really summarize on paper. The one area I can quanitfy is the immediate torque of the engine while moving from a standstill as opposed to waiting for the Turbo to spool up on the 944 (but when it did ... !). As far as reliability, I sold each by the time they had 50k miles (911) and 80k miles (944Turbo - a lot of freeway miles and some DD use). I've owned two 911's and both have been bulletproof. The 944 Turbo pinged me to death. It was always a $300-400 bill for a motor mount, sunroof motor, window relay/motor, etc ... you get the picture. I don't know how the 20yr old cars will hold up, but i have to imagine the 944 will cost you a lot more. I advise purchasing from a private owner/enthusiest who knows the car's service history - that's your safest route to happy Porsche ownership!
-soft roof= less security; although factory alarm has motion sensors... cool for when you lock the car with the windows down and someone reaches in your car to take something... less cool when it is you who does it on day#2 of ownership and you wake your 5yo from his nap... and can't find your keys to disable...
-convertible is louder, but that is a big part of the fun (wind is your hair... great exhaust tone)
-less room in back seats with cab due to roof mechanism.
-cab is slower (0.1-0.2 on 0-60) due to the weight of roof mechanism. 4 is slower than 2 due to weight also... but S negates alot of that.
For me, I like open air driving, but like sunroofs with window down and beastie boys blaring... so I got a 2009 carrera coupe. Only thing different I would have done would be to get an S.
Good luck and happy trails.