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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,382
    A interesting post and indicative of GM's plight - the customer expects a trouble-free vehicle at a giveaway price.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Also indicative of the extremely tough market for mid-sized cars, and vehicles in general this year. The fact is, reliable if not trouble-free mid-sized cars are available for a give-away price these days--and not just the G6. For example, how about a nicely equipped sedan with all the power accessories, ESC/traction, six airbags, decent audio system with at least six speakers, CD/MP3 (and maybe satellite radio), and possibly other niceties like alloys and fog lamps for under $15k + T&L? These days it's impossible to find a new Civic or Corolla for that kind of money.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Also indicative of the extremely tough market for mid-sized cars,

    It's a tough market for mid-size cars, but not a tough market for the Accord.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Watch how fast they convert truck/SUV plants to produce small cars.
    Yeah right IN MEXICO, of course. As long as Ford (and the other 'American' Cos.) continue to put real Americans on the the unemployment line they will play hell getting any of my dollars.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Yeah right IN MEXICO

    Last time I checked Louisville, KY and Avon Lake, OH were in the United States. But don't let the facts stop your biased tirades.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Interior volume is a silly way to categorize cars as demonstrated by the fact that EPA says the Malibu is midsize but the Pontiac G6 is compact.

    Prius is not midsize on the inside or the outside. Here are inside measurements of width:

    Front Shoulder Room 55 in.
    Rear Shoulder Room 52.9 in..
    Front Hip Room 51 in.
    Rear Hip Room 51.6 in.

    Here they are for the barely midsize Mazda6:

    Front Shoulder Room 55.9 in.
    Rear Shoulder Room 55.2 in..
    Front Hip Room 54.7 in.
    Rear Hip Room 54.1 in.

    More empty space above your head, under the windshield, and wherever else the Prius has added volume over actual midsize cars, does not make a narrow car midsize, no matter what EPA classifications may say about it.

    The inside and outside dimensions of the Prius are similar to other compacts, such as Corolla, Civic, Jetta.
  • packer3packer3 Member Posts: 277
    Use your money more wisely, stay away from the G6 it's identical to the old Malibu, if your going to use your points get the new Malibu. Or better yet test drive them both and drive them hard you will see a big difference.
  • packer3packer3 Member Posts: 277
    The Sonata sales increase is really due to getting a better bang for your buck like in options vs the Acc. & Cam.
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Member Posts: 1,722
    Not a tough market for Camry either. Camry was down a little in June, but in May Camry sold 51k, vs. 44k for the Accord. They both dominate the segment, and the biggest problem Toyota and Honda have is the huge demand for these cars.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The Sonata sales increase is really due to getting a better bang for your buck like in options vs the Acc. & Cam.

    But it has always had more bang for your buck vs. Camry and Accord, since the current model Sonata debuted a few years ago. That doesn't explain the current increase. The upgrades to the interior does (I'd look a lot harder at it now than I did back in '05 when I decided on my Accord).
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    so now they don't produce the Fusion in Mexico as well as many of their trucks and engines etc., and they didn't just make a wonderful decision to refit a truck plant down there to produce their new Fiesta?????
    Your continual company shill lines get very tiring and then you accuse me of not having my facts straight? :mad:
  • packer3packer3 Member Posts: 277
    Three years ago the economy wasn't as it is today so money becomes more important in peoples hands, they will be satisified with a second rat car because they belive what people write about the car especially CR, check out the banging noise from the front end issuse on the Sonta going over simple bumps, did CR report that.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I said they were refitting truck and suv plants to make more cars and you implied that they were only doing this in Mexico, which isn't true.

    You also conveniently forget that Ford moved Focus production OUT of Mexico and BACK to the U.S. exclusively back in 2005. It works both ways.

    One reason they build vehicles in Mexico is because they can be exported to Latin and South America without tariffs or restrictions.

    Don't gripe about the Fiesta not being built in the U.S. while the Fit, Yaris, Versa and almost all other B cars are also imported. I'm tired of seeing Ford get bashed while the imports get a free pass for doing the SAME THING.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    well don't get too tired of watching Ford get bashed - they deserve it for putting more Americans out of work than any other American based Co. (I can think of) They could have refitted one of the dozens of US plants they have recently closed to build the 'new' subcompact but no-o-o , let's support the Mexican economy. Toyota, Nissan, and Hyundai, for example, can spend literally billions building plants all over this country not to mention provided tens of thousands of employed taxpayers. Right now and apparently in the future the only country that may benefit from Ford's existence is probably Mexico - economically Ford probably does more damage than good in this country, and it's getting worse.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Thanks for the update on the Accord. I had no idea they were all selling for at least MSRP, since this is not a tough market for selling them.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I'm reading lots of stories on the Accord Prices-Paid and Buying Experience forum about Accords for at least $2,000 under sticker. :P
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    So now it comes down to how wide a car is inside? If someone is tall, or of someone needs to carry two long-legged adults in back frequently, interior height or legroom could be more important than width.

    But if width is important, then I guess the Elantra is definitely mid-sized. It is within fractions of an inch of the width inside of the Mazda6. Plus the Elantra has more front leg room than the Mazda6.

    If you really need those extra inches of steel and plastic outside to call your car "mid-sized", go ahead. To me, it's what's inside that counts.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    That seems very odd, since apparently this is not a challenging market for the Accord. Why would dealers give discounts like that on Accords when they don't have to? :confuse:
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I'm not even going to respond to such a ridiculous statement. Go find the number of vehicles produced in the U.S. and the total number of people employed by Ford, Honda and Toyota (including sales and service) and report back.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Perhaps the poster is a little optimistic about the model of car they drive.
  • 2002slt2002slt Member Posts: 228
    That seems very odd, since apparently this is not a challenging market for the Accord. Why would dealers give discounts like that on Accords when they don't have to?

    I was offered one at invoice. Decided the more than $5k savings for a similarly equipped Sonata was a much better deal. :) Not to mention I perfer the Sonata's driveability over the Accord's.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Lets not forget why the domestic brands are having trouble financially. It is not just from lack of product sales, but how much money they have to pay out to the money grubbing UAW Union!!!!! Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai workers here in the U.S. are not members of the UAW, and therefor, are not financially strained by the 85yr olds collecting benefits, pension and other little perks for being a fender stamper 40 years ago. Lets be real here, until the domestics can get rid of the UAW, they will never survive, regardless of how much they improve their product.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    You should tell Toyota that. Apparently they missed the memo about how easy it is to sell cars in this segment. Surely they missed it, since Toyota started offering $199 lease specials, special financing rates, only a few months after the Camry introduction.

    Just because Toyota is selling x number of its Camry units, doens't mean this segment is too easy for them. This is probably the toughest segment of all, especially now since every brand is likely putting their best efforts into their midsize product. Also, all midsize sedans are benefiting to some degree consumers trading down to a fuel efficient car from mostly SUVs.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    So now it comes down to how wide a car is inside?

    It certainly is an important factor, not the only factor. A car that is about 3 inches narrower inside, for most of the interior width meassurements, than the Mazda6 (which many call cramped) is not a midsize.

    But if width is important, then I guess the Elantra is definitely mid-sized.

    Ah, but don't forget that the outgoing Mazda6 is called "cramped" by many. ;)

    Edmunds classifies both the Elantra and the Prius as compacts. I tend to agree with their opinion on this. Maybe you'd like to try convincing them that the Elantra is misclassified, despite it's "compact" exterior dimensions.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I heard from fairly reliable sources that Honda began offering current Accord owners $6000 off on a new Accord but current owners refused and insisted on paying MSRP because they didn't want to hurt their future resale value. Do you think it could be true???? :D
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    It's really straight forward - usable space. It really doesn't matter how big or small the car is on the outside, it's the interior volume and trunk space that count.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If Edmunds classifies cars by exterior size, then the Elantra is a compact by their classification scheme. That is one way to classify cars. Another way, e.g. used by the EPA, is by interior volume. Personally, I find that kind of classification to be more useful. And I really like the fact that the Elantra (and Prius and Sentra and Versa) is "compact" on the outside and "mid-sized" on the inside. With gas prices as they will be for the forseeable future, i.e. high, I bet we'll be seeing many more cars that are big inside and small outside--ala the trend in other lands, where gas has been expensive for some time. Classifications based on the outer dimensions of a car will have little meaning then. As I think they do now. :)
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    It's really straight forward -

    what you just said is just your opinion! If that was a fact it wouldn't matter whatsoever what the exterior looked like, a box for example, and that is simply not the case. Length of the car and it's wheelbase have a definite effect on how a car rides. Small cars ride choppier than bigger cars. I'm not saying they ride badly but they do ride different. They might scoot and park easily but I don't think that is what the majority of midsized buyers are looking for IMO.

    BTW, tall people usually have wide wing spans so to speak and appreciate elbowroom as well as headroom.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    they have to pay out to the money grubbing UAW Union!!!!!

    I don't appreciate the UAW all that much but unions were formed in this country for good reasons. They just got corrupted like many companies before and since. Remember it was the car company management that entered into the pension/retiree healthcare agreements with the unions. Why? Because they were making so much money that they believed it didn't matter and never would. Very short sighted I say.

    It takes two to tango and it's all coming back to bite them all in the butts.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    This is not the right place for this recent thread on the manufacturers. Please take it to the more appropriate discussions.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    I was talking soley on the measurement factor, nothing about how the car rides, or anything else within such regard.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    But in regards to measurement, isn't the wheelbase a measurement and doesn't it affect ride? So the "how big or small a car is on the outside" would matter at least to some degree, wouldn't it?

    I do agree that the interior dimensions, for most people, do have a more important role to play overall though.
  • moocow1moocow1 Member Posts: 230
    Actually I totally agree it's all about width and legroom to determine the REAL interior usable size. Height doesn't mean anything to most normal size people, only seriously tall people. And yes the Elantra really is mid-sized inside, unlike the prius, which is MOST CERTAINLY compact for all usage. Hell it's almost subcompact with how squished 3 tiny people are in the back. Meanwhile I've fit one big, one moderate, one small in the back of the elantra. So yes there is a huge difference between a real mid-size vs a prius.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Honda began offering current Accord owners $6000 off on a new Accord but current owners refused and insisted on paying MSRP because they didn't want to hurt their future resale value.

    Now that's funny. :D
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    Yeah, it's funny because there is a good amount of truth in it when it comes to the mind set of some people's thinking regarding "resale value."
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Interior height means something to me, in three ways: 1) adequate headroom in the rear (I am only 5'10" but my rather short hair brushes the roof on some sedans); 2) enough headroom so that I can adjust the driver's seat up fairly high, both for good visibility and also to add maximum legroom behind me (for example, when I did this in a Versa there was nearly limo-like leg room in back); 3) enough headroom so that adding a moonroof doesn't cause a problem.

    Another plus for a fairly "tall" car, interior-wise, is that it usually means the seats are fairly high, which makes entry/exit easier, and makes the rear seat more comfortable (providing good thigh support, which is often lacking even in mid-sized sedans).

    A wide car is useful if you need to carry three adults in back on a regular basis. Since I don't, other measurements are more important to me. A wider car means to me that it's harder to fit in my garage, and harder to fit the car into parking ramp spaces that seem to be growing smaller every year. The real downer is a fairly wide car w/o folding mirrors, e.g. Fulan and Sonata.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Sure adequate height, or really adequate head room is important, more than that is not. What is adequate head room can vary for different individuals. But a car can be midsize and still be lacking adequate headroom for a particular purpose. For example the mid-size Mazda6 in hatch form lacked adequate rear seat headroom for my purposes, while the sedan had just enough.

    I think to be classified midsize, one thing a car should be able to do is fit 3 normal width butts in the back seat, on occassion. My Mazda6 can just do that and it is at least tolerable for a trip of a couple hours, in my wife's Jetta you need a shoe horn and then the bodies are kind of over-lapping. The extra ~3 inches make all the difference.

    I'm no fan of super-wde cars, either. Elantra, on paper (I've never been in the current one), looks like it is quite spacious for it's size. The Prius, otoh, is just another compact...that is not to say that it might not be more spacious than some other compacts.

    Passenger volume does not even tell the whole story on how a car feels when you sit in it. In 2005, when we compared the Volvo S40 to the new Jetta, the Jetta felt much more spacious. Yet EPA reports 92 cf passenger space for the S40 and 91 for the Jetta.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I also had a good laugh from a recent Hyundai compaign imploring people to pay more than MSRP for their cars to help resale value. :surprise
  • moocow1moocow1 Member Posts: 230
    Except for sports cars, I've never found a car where headroom was a big issue. But I've found tons of cars where width and legroom were issues. Adequate headroom seems a dime a dozen.

    The bigger issue is that a car that cannot handle 3 people comfortably is somehow classified midsize. Mid to me means 3 people should be reasonable. While large would obviously hold 3 people well. A prius does not do this. So it's a faux mid.

    The advantages of being exterior being wide or not do not apply in this discussion. It's about how legit the interior mid-size classification is for a prius. And it's quite clearly bs.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Lack of headroom in back is pretty common I've found, although moreso with cars with swept-back rooflines.

    Everyone has different needs. As I said, if someone really needs room for 3 adults in back on a regular basis, interior width is a big deal. It's just not a big deal for me. I can't remember the last time I needed to carry 3 adults in the back seat. What is a big deal for me is having enough leg room in back for a couple of tall teens (over 6') and a really small, slender girl. They fit just fine in a Prius (I know because we all took one for a long drive once) and even in a Gen 3 Elantra (my current daily driver). So in other words, I need a car with "mid-sized" leg and head room, but I can take "compact" sized width. How do we classify that kind of car? I see interior volume as being just as good as any other way to do that. Certainly if we judge only by exterior size, I have no idea whether everyone will fit inside. And if we judge by width, I have no idea whether there's enough leg room, or headroom.

    Maybe what I am talking about is not compact-sized or mid-sized, but "right-sized". :)
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    Well, since Hyundai sold more vehicles in 2007 than Honda did, maybe some will claim that Honda is more scarce and therefore will command a higher resalevalue.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I didn't realize that. I don't think they'll be adding Honda to the endangered species list anytime soon though. I like Hondas but not the Honda drivers with blinders on.
  • moocow1moocow1 Member Posts: 230
    This must be a joke because honda sold over 3 times I think :)
  • moocow1moocow1 Member Posts: 230
    Hmm, I found the prius legroom wasn't very good either. In fact I find it's only good for 2 not too big people in the back and that's it. Not exactly what I'd consider mid-size or right-size even. The elantra is MUCH bigger and I am counting by Gen 3 since Gen 3 is also mid-sized interior.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Many forget that a car is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it, regardless of who makes it and regardless of what a web site says it's worth.
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    No joke...

    2007 Global Auto sales

    2007 Global Sales Rankings

    1. Toyota 9,366,000

    2. GM 8,902,252

    3. Volkswagen 6,191,618,

    4. Ford 5,964,000

    5. Hyundai-Kia 3,961,629

    6. Honda 3,831,000

    7. Nissan 3,675,574

    8. PSA/Peugeot 3,428,400

    9. Chrysler 2,676,268

    10. Fiat 2,620,864

    ;)
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I'm pretty surprised at Volkswagen. Does that total number include Audi and Porsche? Considering VW by themselves only sell about 200K units in America, it would seem that they dominate the rest of the world with over 6 million units sold.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I think it would include all brands under the corporate umbrella. Lexus with Toyota, Acura with Honda. I would imagine GM includes Hummer. You can guess what that brand is adding to the numbers right now.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    But when one narrows that down to the North American market I will bet the numbers look very very different.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Not that different. Few companies would switch (i.e. VW, Honda), and Hyundai would be 7th behind the big six of US and Japanese makers.

    FWIW, last month, Hyundai/Kia outsold Nissan/Infiniti in the US for the first time (78,325 vs. 75,847).
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