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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I did try to define it, as best I could. It's clear we just disagree on this. No big deal, right? No need to think you have failed. You just stated your opinion, as I did. That is what this forum is all about.

    Another thing we disagree on is that you see a big grin on the pblt symbol. I see what could be a grimace. Try smiling and doing a "pblt" with your tongue. It's pretty hard to do, isn't it?

    The "pblt" seems to me to be like the sound one would make when doing a raspberry. That's the closest I can come to it. Maybe the person who developed the original "pblt" Emotorcon will see this thread and tell us exactly what he/she was thinking. Then we'll know for sure. Otherwise it's just specualtion, and different opinions.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Tks. It's just kind of funny that nobody knows what "pblt" stands for. To tell you the truth I couldn't tell what the heck the face was doing....that's why I was curious as to what "pblt" meant. Oh well, I'll have to ask somebody that text msgs all the time. They'll probably know.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    VW could do a lot worse than bringing an actual Skoda Superb to the US market. IMHO VW's current US offerings are too expensive to compete directly with cars of similar size from other manufacturers. The Rabbit is the lone exception. VW's "traditional" virtues are better represented by the Skoda lineup than by the current Jetta and Passat or the upcoming CC.

    I think the same of the Euro Mondeo and S-Max, but I think the issue is in Europe, those are $40-45k vehicles, and that isn't going to fly in the US. This is why our market gets "dumbed down" versions.

    VW did a US tour a few years back and came to the conclusion that in Europe its about The Drive, and in the US its about everything but...that is a paraphrased quote. Kind of sad I think.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    Based on what little I know of European pricing, it seems to me that VW could field Skodas (probably with VW badging) in the US market for perhaps 15-20% lower prices than the corresponding VW. That would be enough to put them a lot closer to the mass market.

    I think the problem is that we don't get dumbed-down (i.e., market-appropriate) VWs.
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    Here's a link to an interesting article about the challenges US and other automakers have to deal with to "Americanize" their European models for the US market...

    European to US standards challenges
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Very informative article. Tks.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    Aside from the powertrain choices, I wonder how different the US-market VWs are from their Euro-market platform mates. It stands to reason that VW would have had to either (a) design the Passat platform to meet both sets of standards, or (b) design one version for Euro standards and one for US standards. If the platform has already been engineered to fit both sets of standards, and the Superb uses the Passat platform, then it ought to be as easy to sell the Superb in the US as it is to sell the Passat. The same principle might also apply downmarket, to arguably greater effect, as some variation on the Octavia could replace the Rabbit/Jetta.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    That is a great article. In graduate school I was very familiar with a lot of the details and requirements that differed between the continents. Each region would have it's own standards.
    Part of the issue is the use case for a car is different in the US than in Europe or elsewhere. In Europe, people walk to work *gasp* and are unlikely to drive an hour to get to a Costco or something. It is also one of the reasons EU takes pedestrian crash safety more seriously than the US. A lot of the driving is on rural or urban streets. In the US, people commute over an hour each way to work and don't blink an eye; most of that commute is on ultra-boring low-workload high-speed super-slab. So where cars are driven and why is somewhat different.
    Also, in Europe they have ENCAP (I might have the name wrong) that rates safety using a slightly different paradigm than NHTSA or IIHS. Europeans are less fearful of government and legislation than Americans (which is why photo radar is much more prevalent there than in the states).
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Kind of silly that one of the specific "problems" identified is "Europe refused to allow rear turn signals to blink red instead of amber". Sooo...just make them amber, since the US allows amber and EU requires amber.

    I do agree that the US crash standards should not be designed to protect fools who choose not to wear their seat belt.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    What you are missing, backy, is that "pblt" has represented the mischievous tongue-sticking-out icon across many sites for many years, way beyond this site. It was not defined here. Sorry you don't see the grin, but it's there, just as it is on other sites. Sometimes it's more of a goofy look than a grin, but the intent is always the same - playful, mischievous, fun-poking, that sort of thing.

    I think we've beaten this subject way beyond any reason now. Time to move on. Thanks for the debate.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Tks for everyone's help to my curious question. I feel it's anwered and get the intent even if I can't tell exactly what it's doing without a magnifying glass. :P
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Click me!

    Yes, the Mazda6 finishes first over the Accord and Altima.

    Check out the overall fuel economy that edmunds got in their tests:
    Mazda6: 20 MPG
    Accord: 18 MPG
    Altima: 17 MPG (on Premium no less).

    Another surprise is the fact that Mazda is the only one that uses scissor-hinges to keep them out of interfering with trunk space. I knew that the Altima didn't use them, but the Accord as well? Wow. I thought Honda would be better than that.

    Discuss! :)
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    I'm not surprised by the results. The Mazda is the newest sedan in the midsize family so it packs the most features, the highest horsepower and the best handling (which was to be expected from Mazda) so I'm happy that it did so well in the comparison test.

    The more I look at the new Mazda6 and read reviews on the car, it seems like the new Mazda6 is becoming what the old Accord used to be: A car with sporting intentions with just the right amount of compromises. Handling is best in class, ride falls somewhere in between the chushier Accord and the rougher Altima, the interior has nice materials but isn't as boring lookin inside as the Altima nor as "Star Trek" as the Accords and yet it has the worst EPA ratings of all three cars and comes out on top with observed Fuel economy. I can't remember which poster here begged us not to jump the gun on EPA ratings for the Mazda6 but it appears that he/she might have been right...at least for this comparison test.

    I only wonder why Edmunds didn't add the Camry SEV6 to the comparison test. I wonder how the results would have turned out?
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Surprising that those other cars still use those cheap, intrusive hinges on the trunk. Even the old version of the mazda6 had the unobtrusive hinges and pneumatic lifters.
  • gooddeal2gooddeal2 Member Posts: 750
    The dashboards of these three cars offer either too little or too much. The Accord EX-L Navi groups its controls for the audio, navigation and ventilation systems in logical places, but there are so many buttons that it requires either thorough pre-flight study or too much on-the-fly attention to navigate the myriad buttons, displays, knobs and dials.

    That's the reason I hate Accord the most especially the '07.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I would have liked Edmunds to include the Sonata SE V6 in the comparo, since they haven't tested it yet and it has done well elsewhere, e.g. 2nd in MT's recent 10-car comparo of I4 sedans, where it bested everyone except the Passat.

    Which begs the question... where was the Passat in Edmunds' comparo? Or the Malibu LTZ?
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    The Sonata would have been another good choice for the test as well. I guess since the Malibu came in 3rd place the last go round, Edmunds decided not to compare the car again. Maybe they figured the 6 would slot somewhere between (or in this case) above the last top two sedans compared in the test. That may have been the same reason the Camry was left out of the Comparison test as well. Didnt it come in dead last in the last Edmunds V6 comparison???

    It really wouldn't make sense to compare the Passat to the other three midsize V6 sedans considering the price of a V6 Passat would put it well into Acura TL territory and the fact that for MY09 the Passat will only be available with the 2.0t four cylinder engine in "Komfort" trim. Using an 08 probably would have been more of a hassle to obtain too. All 09 model Passats will be four cylinders..no more "Turbo", "Lux" or "VR6" models. :( and no more manual transmissions either :mad:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    but there are so many buttons that it requires either thorough pre-flight study or too much on-the-fly attention to navigate the myriad buttons, displays, knobs and dials.

    That's the reason I hate Accord the most especially the '07.

    But the 07 model didn't have that many buttons!
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    This was a V6 comparo, not an I4 comparo. Maybe that is why it was left out. I have a funny feeling that the performance numbers would have been creamed by all three competitors.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I'm not so sure about that. In the MT comparo, the Passat 2.0T turned in some excellent performance numbers including 0-60 and was far and away the favorite in terms of handling. The Passat doesn't seem to get much print in general in these comparos (except the recent MT one).
  • gooddeal2gooddeal2 Member Posts: 750
    But the 07 model didn't have that many buttons!

    I'm not sure but when I went to look at the '07 last year, I was shocked by all of those buttons. I drove my friend '08 in July and I think it's cleaner than the '07.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I'll respectfully disagree :blush:.

    The 08 has buttons laid out in what looks to be a haphazard way. Drastically different font sizes and odd shapes make the thing look cheesy to me. I like the cleaner look of the 2007 (more business-like).
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Backy said he would have liked to see the SE V6 in the comparo.....he just referenced the I4 MT comparo.

    It's obvious that Edmunds left out a large number of other midsize V6 sedans so it's a time waster to try and figure out exactly why they left out a particular model. IMO they wanted to get a comparo done quickly with the new Mazda6 and picked a couple of other midsizers that in normal V6 trim are commonly thought to be the "sportiest". Although I really don't think the Accord falls into that category as much anymore. The Camry and the Sonata would have to have the SE trim which is not the standard handling package. To my knowledge, the suspension/handling on the Accord, Altima and Mazda6 are the same throughtout the different trim levels.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Nissan's website states the Altima SE-V6 has "retuned struts/shocks, stiffer springs, and thicker front (24.2 mm) and rear (18.3 mm) stabilizer bars" versus the other models. The SE-V6 also has P215/55VR17 All-season tires versus the SL's P215/60TR16 All-season tires.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Thanks, didn't realize that. Off hand do you know if the Accord changes in the different V6 trims?.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I believe that the Accord does not change from EX to EX-L trim with regards to handling upgrades.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Mazda6 suspension does not change throughout the entire car line. The only changing variable is the wheel size (16, 17, and 18)
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Mazda6 suspension does not change throughout the entire car line. The only changing variable is the wheel size (16, 17, and 18)

    Also the weight and weight bias. At least that's the way it was in the last gen. The I4 was always deemed more tossable, not more fun to drive mind you, due to it's better weight bias and lower curb weight compared to the V6.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    To me, more tossable = more fun to drive
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    To me, more tossable = more fun to drive

    To some that is true. I found that the V6 was more fun to drive when I test drove simply because of the extra power. There was a noticeable difference in handling between the I4 and the V6 but I liked the extra power hands down.

    I was more or less stating that because I didn't want to get flamed by those who also felt the V6 was more fun to drive. But thank you for pointing that out and making it clearer for all. ;)
  • carfanforevercarfanforever Member Posts: 84
    I love the new Mazda 6. That car is gorgeous, and the handling and power sound right on the money. The outgoing model was a three-run homer, this one is a grand slam!

    I have owned Camrys, Accords, Luminas, Maximas, Grands Prix, and many other mid-sized sedans too.

    I love the new Chevy Malibu too. We need an SS version.

    The Camry is sharp and very attractive.

    The new Accord is a huge improvement over the looks of the older model.

    The Altima is great, sports car handling with musclecar speed.

    I am in love with the new Maxima.

    The Ford Fusion is a stylish and sporty little car.

    The mid-sized sedan category just might be the most varied and interesting one in all of new automobiledom.
  • nick_22nick_22 Member Posts: 3
    I'm a fairly new driver (17) and my parents have agreed to help me pay for a car under $25,000 MSRP

    I'm interested in buying a 4-door mid-size sedan (which means not a small car like the civic/corolla)

    so I suppose, realistically, I have this to choose from:

    Honda Accord
    Mazda 6
    Toyota Camry
    Ford Fusion
    Chevy Malibu
    Dodge Avenger
    Chrysler Sebring
    Hyundai Sonata
    Subaru Legacy
    Kia Optima
    Pontiac G6

    I was wondering if people on these forums could help me narrow it down to the top 3 based on space, build quality, equipment, safety, value, and driving performance
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    Five or ten years ago that would've been easy (Honda, Toyota, then a long steep dropoff). Now it's not--cars like the Fusion and Sonata are much better than their precursors of a few years ago. I haven't driven the latest versions of some of these cars, but there seems to be a consensus with regard to the following points:

    1. Honda and Toyota no longer have a monopoly on good build quality. Many would say that they have slipped, while other cars have stepped up a notch. Also, the Toyota has lots of engine but handles too softly for my taste.

    2. If driving performance (meaning acceleration, handling, "fun to drive") is a priority, then the 2009 Mazda 6 ought to be on your short list.

    3. The Fusion, which is based loosely on the previous-generation Mazda 6 platform, is a bit underpowered for some tastes but handles well and can be purchased for a lot less than most of the cars on the list if you are willing to push the dealership a little.

    4. The Sonata and Optima are very good well built middle-of-the-road choices that offer good performance and economy for a good price.

    5. If you're looking at the GM sedans, you would do well to consider the Saturn Aura rather than the Pontiac G6.

    6. One frequent poster in this forum really loves his Sebring because of the electronic gadgets and the sound system. I'm glad he's happy with it. But most reports describe the Sebring and the Avenger in unflattering terms when compared to the rest of the cars on your list.

    7. It's really hard to go wrong in the midsize sedan market right now, because most of the choices are quite good.

    Having said all that, the five I'd go test drive would be the Mazda, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, and Ford. Then I'd pick the one that felt "right" to me.
  • nick_22nick_22 Member Posts: 3
    well, really, the number 1 priority for me is how much interior room there is, the second priority would be build quality

    I plan to test drive all these cars shortly, but could people that already own/have owned or have test-driven these cars tell me which would be first in terms of interior room and build quality

    EDIT: the car also has to be fairly luxurious and quiet on the road ( not a lot of road noise)
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    If those are the top priority, look at the Sonata and the Accord first.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    Another option, if our young friend lives in one of the hghly competitive areas, is the Hyundai Azera, It's only about 3 inches longer than the Sonata and is just loaded with features. Azera Limited (without Ultimate pkg) is easily available for under $25 in the competitive areas.
  • nick_22nick_22 Member Posts: 3
    the Azera is registered as a full-size sedan, so I'm not really sure about it's price or mileage, but I'll check it out nonetheless

    oh yeah, and the Sonata has gotten horrible reviews from some of the sites I've been on

    as well, I've heard good things about the Ford Mondeo, but apparently, it's only available in Europe, is that true?
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    Nick_22,

    Yes, the Mondeo is a European-market car and unavailable in the US. That doesn't stop many US automotive writers from being envious though.

    I would second the idea of taking a look at the Hyundai Azera. The Ford Taurus is also worth examining if interior room is a top priority.

    As those who have been following this forum for a long time can attest, the idea of a "midsize sedan" is difficult to define. For many of us, the real question is "of the sedans I can buy for $25k, which one suits me best?" Fuel economy is often similar--compare the midsize Ford Fusion V6 to the fullsize Ford Taurus and you'll get a surprise--the Taurus, a bigger car with a bigger engine, still gets the same city mileage and better highway mileage according to EPA.

    I'd be interested to see where you found negative reviews of the Sonata--pretty much everything I've seen about the current version is very positive, including reviews at Edmunds.com, Car & Driver, Consumer Reports, and various syndicated automotive columns.
  • aqua33v6aqua33v6 Member Posts: 38
    I own a 2006 Sonata GLS V6 and I've been very happy with it so far. It has just under 25K miles on it. I can't recall reading any "horrible" Sonata reviews... and I've read reviews by all the major auto mags. The 2006/07/08 Sonatas are right up there with the Camry and Accord in regards to overall quality and refinement. The 2009's are even better - nicer interior, best in class EPA, etc. You might be surprised if you test drive one.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I was wondering if people on these forums could help me narrow it down to the top 3 based on space, build quality, equipment, safety, value, and driving performance...

    You didn't mention "style", which I applaud you for but let's be realistic, you're 17 so I'll bet style counts for something here, right? ;) You also didn't say what kind of "equipment" is most important to you. If you drive in the snow a lot, for example, that might tilt AWD cars like the Legacy, Fusion, and Milan in your favor.

    You didn't mention "fuel economy" in your list. But unless your folks are going to help you buy gas, I'd think that is important to you too.

    But anyway.... based on your list, plus the assumption that fuel economy and style both count for something, here's my top 3:

    * Sonata SE I4: Perhaps the best value in the segment, a fine blend of handling and ride, one of the roomiest interiors and trunks, tons of standard safety equipment, sharp interior and decent exterior, and a peppy but economical I4.

    * Mazda6 I4: Perhaps the sharpest looks in the segment, good power with decent if not great fuel economy, good blend of ride comfort and handling, lots of standard safety equipment, one of the roomiest interiors and trunks in the class, and lots of equipment available. Also the newest design in the class, so it won't be old very soon.

    * Accord LX-P: Roomiest interior in the class, great reputation for quality and reliability, good blend of ride and handling, great resale value, peppy engine (EX has a little more power than LX-P) with good fuel economy, BMW-esque exterior, has all the basic features you need, great standard safety features and crash protection.

    Another interesting choice would be the Passat. You could probably find a closeout 2008 for under $25k. Doesn't have the same reputation for reliability as do cars like the Accord and Sonata, but has great power, handling, build quality, and safety, and VWs tend to hold their value.
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    So you eliminated the Sonata...care to say why? I love Sonatas and KIA Optimas,so when someone does not like them I am curious why that is.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Sonata reminds me of a Buick with it's soft suspension, uninspiring handling and soft seats. Sonata is even more Buick-like than Camry.
  • oldcemoldcem Member Posts: 309
    I went through this same exercise last March. At it's pricepoint I couldn't find anything that could match Saturn Aura. There's now a black Aura XE3.5 in my driveway. I've put 13K miles on it so far (business travel) and have been very satisfied with the car. It's quiet, roomy, and delivers excellent fuel economy on my long business trips. The performanceof mine (219hp) is about the same as the Ford Fusion 3.0. However, The Aura offers a higher hp V6 (3.6) in the XR Model that's significantly quicker than mine, and, class competitive. Suggest you give it a test drive.

    Regards:
    Oldengineer
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Will the Camry be getting the 2.7L from the Highlander in the 2010 refresh? It'd make sense to me. The current 2.4L is a little lacking based on personal experience with a 2.4L Camry LE. It had to downshift on very modest grades at 60 MPH with three average-weight people aboard.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    That's a pretty big 4 cyl motor. With 187hp and 186ft-lbs tq, that's pretty powerful. However, one thing that remains to be seen in FE. With that displacement, I'm a little skeptical.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Final mileage ratings are pending, but Toyota spokesman Bill Kwong put preliminary estimates at 20/26 mpg city/highway for a FWD four-cylinder, which is about 10% better than the FWD V-6’s already-decent 18/24 mpg rating. (Memo to Dodge: This unseats the four-cylinder Journey, which gets 19/25 mpg, as segment-best.)

    20/26 would put it at 2 MPG shy of the RAV4 with the 2.4L. Considering the extra weight here, it doesn't sound like it is that much more thirsty. The RAV is hampered by a 4-speed automatic, but the Highlander is saddled with more weight, so who knows.

    Question (I'm trying to get the thread stirring again :)): What's the benefit of having a 2.7L engine be a 4-cylinder instead of a V6? (Chrysler has a 2.7L V6 now, and not so long ago finding a 2.5L-2.8L V6 was easy)
  • lucky_777lucky_777 Member Posts: 205
    I'd stay away from new Toyota engine and wouldn't want to be an early adopter. Current 2.4L while not a speed demon, proved itself in terms of durability and FE. It is more then capable for current size Camry. If you need bigger engine in Camry then go for V6, they sell at good discount.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    There's not a Camry that fits what I need/want. Compared to my 2.4L Accord, the Camry just feels too darn sleepy; making the Honda feel more like an eager puppy. Aggressive throttle response, tight responses to steering input, a firm and responsive brake pedal, and a quick thinking transmission goes a LONG way in making the Accord feel MUCH happier when you need to hustle. A more happily motivated engine would help the Camry, if not alter its attitude (obviously not everyone wants a sporty car).
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    But hasn't the 2.7L I-4 been in the Tacoma for a couple of years already?
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    Hi, folks. An interesting question has come up. Here's the background:

    Our current vehicles are an '02 Accord V6 with 76k and a '99 Civic EX 5-speed with 138k
    My wife and I are reasonably pleased with both cars, but both prefer to drive the Civic when we have a choice, because of its nimble, fun nature compared to the "maturity" of the driving experience in the Accord
    Gas is selling for $4.50 per gallon here in Jawjah

    With these factors in mind, we are beginning to think about the possibility of replacing one or both of our current cars. (The Dodge truck will continue to sit underneath the oak tree in the back yard).

    The riddle is this: with aging relatives and a fair amount of medium-length (3-4 hour) trips on the agenda, we might still need a midsize sedan for comfort, but not necessarily for space, as we do not have children--just three cats. But our budget would probably dictate a four-cylinder model this time, with less equipment than our '02. For the same money as a basic midsize, we could probably get a really nice compact. Among the possibilities:

    Accord LX-P vs. Civic EX
    Mazda 6i SV or Sport vs. Mazda 3s Touring
    Sonata GLS vs. Elantra SE

    So I'm wondering what the group thinks on this subject. There's also the "wildcard"--a local dealer is advertising an '08 Fusion S, five speed manual, for $14,599.
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