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Another thing we disagree on is that you see a big grin on the pblt symbol. I see what could be a grimace. Try smiling and doing a "pblt" with your tongue. It's pretty hard to do, isn't it?
The "pblt" seems to me to be like the sound one would make when doing a raspberry. That's the closest I can come to it. Maybe the person who developed the original "pblt" Emotorcon will see this thread and tell us exactly what he/she was thinking. Then we'll know for sure. Otherwise it's just specualtion, and different opinions.
I think the same of the Euro Mondeo and S-Max, but I think the issue is in Europe, those are $40-45k vehicles, and that isn't going to fly in the US. This is why our market gets "dumbed down" versions.
VW did a US tour a few years back and came to the conclusion that in Europe its about The Drive, and in the US its about everything but...that is a paraphrased quote. Kind of sad I think.
I think the problem is that we don't get dumbed-down (i.e., market-appropriate) VWs.
European to US standards challenges
Part of the issue is the use case for a car is different in the US than in Europe or elsewhere. In Europe, people walk to work *gasp* and are unlikely to drive an hour to get to a Costco or something. It is also one of the reasons EU takes pedestrian crash safety more seriously than the US. A lot of the driving is on rural or urban streets. In the US, people commute over an hour each way to work and don't blink an eye; most of that commute is on ultra-boring low-workload high-speed super-slab. So where cars are driven and why is somewhat different.
Also, in Europe they have ENCAP (I might have the name wrong) that rates safety using a slightly different paradigm than NHTSA or IIHS. Europeans are less fearful of government and legislation than Americans (which is why photo radar is much more prevalent there than in the states).
I do agree that the US crash standards should not be designed to protect fools who choose not to wear their seat belt.
I think we've beaten this subject way beyond any reason now. Time to move on. Thanks for the debate.
Yes, the Mazda6 finishes first over the Accord and Altima.
Check out the overall fuel economy that edmunds got in their tests:
Mazda6: 20 MPG
Accord: 18 MPG
Altima: 17 MPG (on Premium no less).
Another surprise is the fact that Mazda is the only one that uses scissor-hinges to keep them out of interfering with trunk space. I knew that the Altima didn't use them, but the Accord as well? Wow. I thought Honda would be better than that.
Discuss!
The more I look at the new Mazda6 and read reviews on the car, it seems like the new Mazda6 is becoming what the old Accord used to be: A car with sporting intentions with just the right amount of compromises. Handling is best in class, ride falls somewhere in between the chushier Accord and the rougher Altima, the interior has nice materials but isn't as boring lookin inside as the Altima nor as "Star Trek" as the Accords and yet it has the worst EPA ratings of all three cars and comes out on top with observed Fuel economy. I can't remember which poster here begged us not to jump the gun on EPA ratings for the Mazda6 but it appears that he/she might have been right...at least for this comparison test.
I only wonder why Edmunds didn't add the Camry SEV6 to the comparison test. I wonder how the results would have turned out?
That's the reason I hate Accord the most especially the '07.
Which begs the question... where was the Passat in Edmunds' comparo? Or the Malibu LTZ?
It really wouldn't make sense to compare the Passat to the other three midsize V6 sedans considering the price of a V6 Passat would put it well into Acura TL territory and the fact that for MY09 the Passat will only be available with the 2.0t four cylinder engine in "Komfort" trim. Using an 08 probably would have been more of a hassle to obtain too. All 09 model Passats will be four cylinders..no more "Turbo", "Lux" or "VR6" models. and no more manual transmissions either :mad:
That's the reason I hate Accord the most especially the '07.
But the 07 model didn't have that many buttons!
I'm not sure but when I went to look at the '07 last year, I was shocked by all of those buttons. I drove my friend '08 in July and I think it's cleaner than the '07.
The 08 has buttons laid out in what looks to be a haphazard way. Drastically different font sizes and odd shapes make the thing look cheesy to me. I like the cleaner look of the 2007 (more business-like).
It's obvious that Edmunds left out a large number of other midsize V6 sedans so it's a time waster to try and figure out exactly why they left out a particular model. IMO they wanted to get a comparo done quickly with the new Mazda6 and picked a couple of other midsizers that in normal V6 trim are commonly thought to be the "sportiest". Although I really don't think the Accord falls into that category as much anymore. The Camry and the Sonata would have to have the SE trim which is not the standard handling package. To my knowledge, the suspension/handling on the Accord, Altima and Mazda6 are the same throughtout the different trim levels.
Also the weight and weight bias. At least that's the way it was in the last gen. The I4 was always deemed more tossable, not more fun to drive mind you, due to it's better weight bias and lower curb weight compared to the V6.
To some that is true. I found that the V6 was more fun to drive when I test drove simply because of the extra power. There was a noticeable difference in handling between the I4 and the V6 but I liked the extra power hands down.
I was more or less stating that because I didn't want to get flamed by those who also felt the V6 was more fun to drive. But thank you for pointing that out and making it clearer for all.
I have owned Camrys, Accords, Luminas, Maximas, Grands Prix, and many other mid-sized sedans too.
I love the new Chevy Malibu too. We need an SS version.
The Camry is sharp and very attractive.
The new Accord is a huge improvement over the looks of the older model.
The Altima is great, sports car handling with musclecar speed.
I am in love with the new Maxima.
The Ford Fusion is a stylish and sporty little car.
The mid-sized sedan category just might be the most varied and interesting one in all of new automobiledom.
I'm interested in buying a 4-door mid-size sedan (which means not a small car like the civic/corolla)
so I suppose, realistically, I have this to choose from:
Honda Accord
Mazda 6
Toyota Camry
Ford Fusion
Chevy Malibu
Dodge Avenger
Chrysler Sebring
Hyundai Sonata
Subaru Legacy
Kia Optima
Pontiac G6
I was wondering if people on these forums could help me narrow it down to the top 3 based on space, build quality, equipment, safety, value, and driving performance
1. Honda and Toyota no longer have a monopoly on good build quality. Many would say that they have slipped, while other cars have stepped up a notch. Also, the Toyota has lots of engine but handles too softly for my taste.
2. If driving performance (meaning acceleration, handling, "fun to drive") is a priority, then the 2009 Mazda 6 ought to be on your short list.
3. The Fusion, which is based loosely on the previous-generation Mazda 6 platform, is a bit underpowered for some tastes but handles well and can be purchased for a lot less than most of the cars on the list if you are willing to push the dealership a little.
4. The Sonata and Optima are very good well built middle-of-the-road choices that offer good performance and economy for a good price.
5. If you're looking at the GM sedans, you would do well to consider the Saturn Aura rather than the Pontiac G6.
6. One frequent poster in this forum really loves his Sebring because of the electronic gadgets and the sound system. I'm glad he's happy with it. But most reports describe the Sebring and the Avenger in unflattering terms when compared to the rest of the cars on your list.
7. It's really hard to go wrong in the midsize sedan market right now, because most of the choices are quite good.
Having said all that, the five I'd go test drive would be the Mazda, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, and Ford. Then I'd pick the one that felt "right" to me.
I plan to test drive all these cars shortly, but could people that already own/have owned or have test-driven these cars tell me which would be first in terms of interior room and build quality
EDIT: the car also has to be fairly luxurious and quiet on the road ( not a lot of road noise)
oh yeah, and the Sonata has gotten horrible reviews from some of the sites I've been on
as well, I've heard good things about the Ford Mondeo, but apparently, it's only available in Europe, is that true?
Yes, the Mondeo is a European-market car and unavailable in the US. That doesn't stop many US automotive writers from being envious though.
I would second the idea of taking a look at the Hyundai Azera. The Ford Taurus is also worth examining if interior room is a top priority.
As those who have been following this forum for a long time can attest, the idea of a "midsize sedan" is difficult to define. For many of us, the real question is "of the sedans I can buy for $25k, which one suits me best?" Fuel economy is often similar--compare the midsize Ford Fusion V6 to the fullsize Ford Taurus and you'll get a surprise--the Taurus, a bigger car with a bigger engine, still gets the same city mileage and better highway mileage according to EPA.
I'd be interested to see where you found negative reviews of the Sonata--pretty much everything I've seen about the current version is very positive, including reviews at Edmunds.com, Car & Driver, Consumer Reports, and various syndicated automotive columns.
You didn't mention "style", which I applaud you for but let's be realistic, you're 17 so I'll bet style counts for something here, right? You also didn't say what kind of "equipment" is most important to you. If you drive in the snow a lot, for example, that might tilt AWD cars like the Legacy, Fusion, and Milan in your favor.
You didn't mention "fuel economy" in your list. But unless your folks are going to help you buy gas, I'd think that is important to you too.
But anyway.... based on your list, plus the assumption that fuel economy and style both count for something, here's my top 3:
* Sonata SE I4: Perhaps the best value in the segment, a fine blend of handling and ride, one of the roomiest interiors and trunks, tons of standard safety equipment, sharp interior and decent exterior, and a peppy but economical I4.
* Mazda6 I4: Perhaps the sharpest looks in the segment, good power with decent if not great fuel economy, good blend of ride comfort and handling, lots of standard safety equipment, one of the roomiest interiors and trunks in the class, and lots of equipment available. Also the newest design in the class, so it won't be old very soon.
* Accord LX-P: Roomiest interior in the class, great reputation for quality and reliability, good blend of ride and handling, great resale value, peppy engine (EX has a little more power than LX-P) with good fuel economy, BMW-esque exterior, has all the basic features you need, great standard safety features and crash protection.
Another interesting choice would be the Passat. You could probably find a closeout 2008 for under $25k. Doesn't have the same reputation for reliability as do cars like the Accord and Sonata, but has great power, handling, build quality, and safety, and VWs tend to hold their value.
Regards:
Oldengineer
20/26 would put it at 2 MPG shy of the RAV4 with the 2.4L. Considering the extra weight here, it doesn't sound like it is that much more thirsty. The RAV is hampered by a 4-speed automatic, but the Highlander is saddled with more weight, so who knows.
Question (I'm trying to get the thread stirring again ): What's the benefit of having a 2.7L engine be a 4-cylinder instead of a V6? (Chrysler has a 2.7L V6 now, and not so long ago finding a 2.5L-2.8L V6 was easy)
Our current vehicles are an '02 Accord V6 with 76k and a '99 Civic EX 5-speed with 138k
My wife and I are reasonably pleased with both cars, but both prefer to drive the Civic when we have a choice, because of its nimble, fun nature compared to the "maturity" of the driving experience in the Accord
Gas is selling for $4.50 per gallon here in Jawjah
With these factors in mind, we are beginning to think about the possibility of replacing one or both of our current cars. (The Dodge truck will continue to sit underneath the oak tree in the back yard).
The riddle is this: with aging relatives and a fair amount of medium-length (3-4 hour) trips on the agenda, we might still need a midsize sedan for comfort, but not necessarily for space, as we do not have children--just three cats. But our budget would probably dictate a four-cylinder model this time, with less equipment than our '02. For the same money as a basic midsize, we could probably get a really nice compact. Among the possibilities:
Accord LX-P vs. Civic EX
Mazda 6i SV or Sport vs. Mazda 3s Touring
Sonata GLS vs. Elantra SE
So I'm wondering what the group thinks on this subject. There's also the "wildcard"--a local dealer is advertising an '08 Fusion S, five speed manual, for $14,599.