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As to why Toyota would put two competing cars on the same lot, you'd have to ask them that. While you're at it, ask them if anyone ever checks out both the RAV4 and Highlander, or the Camry and Avalon, or the Yaris sedan and Corolla, or the Yaris 5-door and Matrix.
If you think the Fusion is worth more money than the Camry, great. But I think some buyers are going to have sticker shock when they look at the Fusion Hybrid, if only due to perception, e.g. "Car sales are way down, you are asking taxpayers to provide you with a line of credit, and you want HOW much for that Fusion??" People are used to getting gouged for Toyotas, however.
(Toyota sales reps and fans, please note the after that last comment!)
Ummmm, Ford did not ask for that. Yet. Have you seen the 2010 Taurus? Times are changing.
Yes, I think the Fusion, Camry, and Prius are competitors for some buyers--including me. But not all buyers of course
To some, yes. But for an SUV buyer like me, it's the more plush vehicle for me. That means the Prius is out of the equation. I'd wager most of the buyers will be like me and not you. But that is yet to be seen.
As to why Toyota would put two competing cars on the same lot, you'd have to ask them that.
Ford is not innocent here either. The Flex and TX are competitors as are the Escape and Edge to an extent. The TX is gone now though so I'm not sure where Toyota is going.
While you're at it, ask them if anyone ever checks out both the RAV4 and Highlander, or the Camry and Avalon, or the Yaris sedan and Corolla, or the Yaris 5-door and Matrix.
All good points. Again, don't know what they're thinking. Their sales are really bad too, way worse than Ford last month actually, if you haven't heard.
If you think the Fusion is worth more money than the Camry, great. But I think some buyers are going to have sticker shock when they look at the Fusion Hybrid, if only due to perception
Ah, but the perception might change once they sit in both. The FFH has that standard, customizable display in the IP which the Camry hybrid lacks. I bet that eye candy sways a lot of shoppers. 25k is not a lofty goal for this car and I see no problem with them selling all of them. Especially because that includes Milan hybrid sales to IIRC. There are currently 2 2009 Escape hybrids (FEH for short) available in my area. But both are $36k+ loaded Limited models so they go last. The salespersons laugh at you when you ask for a moderately equipped FEH. YMMV of course.
People are used to getting gouged for Toyotas, however.
Well, the "Saved by 0" campaign didn't save their sales enough. Word is Toyota is going to begin a big incentive run soon.
I'm due for a new lease soon and I'm pulling for a new Ford. Problem is, they aren't' leasing real well right now and Toyota and Honda are. I want to help the Big3 but I can't if they don't help me.
(Ford) asked Congress for a $9 billion line of credit it could draw on if market conditions continue to deteriorate.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081203/AUTO01/812030394
Not that I think that this would or should have much impact on what a buyer may think a Fusion is worth.
We already have some empirical evidence on this, to wit, what are the sales numbers since the Camry Hybrid was introduced of that car vs. the hatchback Prius? Or add up the total sales of the CH, the Altima Hybrid, and the GM sedan hybrids over that time and compare to Prius sales. That might give some indication as to whether hybrid buyers prefer a mid-sized sedan or mid-sized (if marginally) hatchback configuration.
As to the effect of Ford's financial situation on pricing, I agree there is no direct effect. I think there is a psychological effect, however, i.e. I think many buyers expect "fire sale" prices from automakers now because of market conditions. That's why I think a $27k base (more loaded) FFH will be a tough sell while gas prices stay low and they sit next to regular FFHs with excellent FE numbers for their class at about $10k less--fancy displays with leaves sprouting and bunnies dancing (OK, maybe not that) notwithstanding.
1. it's a compact sedan.
2. it has a tiny engine w/ low HP than any sub-compact sedans.
If you compare the Prirus to other small engine cars (1.5L) like the Yaris, Fit, or Versa, the mileage is not much better but the HP is a lot lower.
Um, sorry, that's really not true. Are you sure you compared them?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Nissan Versa, 122hp - 24-27 city / 31-33 hwy
*Toyota Yaris, 106hp - 29 city / 35-36 hwy
*Honda Fit, 117hp - 27-28 city / 33-35 hwy
*Toyota Prius - 110hp - 48 city / 45 hwy (19-24mpg better city / 9-14mpg better hwy)
-----------------------------------------------------------
(Up to 100% better fuel economy than the vehicles you mention, with at most, 12 fewer horses). Pretty big economy differences with little power-tradeoff if you ask me!
What I try to say is that some people like to compare the Prirus to a REAL mid-size car like a Camry or Altima to make others think that the Prirus really save them a lot of gas.
*Toyota Prius - 110hp
Well, I just compared them using carsdirect and it says the HP for Prirus is 76HP...from toyota website:
Power output
76 hp @ 5000 rpm (57 kW @ 5000 rpm)
Electric Motor Power output
67 hp @ 1200-1540 rpm (50 kW @ 1200-1540 rpm)
Hybrid System Net Power
110 hp (82 kW)
When gas was $4 a gallon, those 117 gallons would've amounted to a 13th car payment's worth of gas ($468). Let's face it, gas won't stay under $2 forever! By the way, if you drive 20k a year like I do, that number is significantly higher.
I don't have a hybrid, and don't "pull for Toyota" in any way, just stating a dissenting opinion here.
The gas engine produces 76 horsepower and 82 pound-feet of torque, while the electric-drive motor produces the equivalent of 67 hp and 295 lb-ft of torque. Net peak horsepower is 110, mainly because the two power sources hit their peaks at different times.
I have a 08 HYUNDAI SONATA (GLS-V4) and it has 30,000 miles on it and I bought it with a warranty and it is certified.
I have some issues that I noticed recently
1. Some times I notice or feel weird sound when I am driving on a normal road as we see this kind of sound when your car drives on a curb. (For example when you are driving on a highway and you get in to a curb...you can feel that it is curb).
Is this some thing with the road or have to do some thing with tires. Tires looks good so far.
2..I also noticed that there is a small crack on the glass where the odometer is present. Is this some thing urgent I have to take care ASAP.
I really appreciate if some one give some information about my first issue
I have the warranty and do you think if I take it to a dealer they will be taken care.
Thanks all for your help
SS
Also, since we are talking here about the 2010 FFH, it's fair that we talk about the 2010 Prius, which was unveiled in Detroit and will be available soon. That car has a total system output of 134 hp, which is low compared to other mid-sized cars except the smallest ones (Elantra, Sentra, Versa), but it does get the Prius from 0-60 in 9.8 seconds, considerably quicker than before and plenty of power for most people IMO. Also, although EPA ratings haven't been announced yet, Toyota expects the 2010 Prius to average 50 mpg on the EPA tests, again a good bump up from the previous car, which was 46 mpg average per EPA. And there are improvements in handling and interior room, also in equipment--e.g. anyone who wouldn't buy a Prius because it didn't offer a factory moonroof, there's not only a moonroof option but it's a solar-powered moonroof that keeps the interior cool while the car is parked. Also other electronic gadgets like touch sensors on the steering wheel, lane departure, even an OnStar-like system.
Anyway, I predict the 2010 Prius will be cross-shopped by many folks looking also at the FFH. Depending on how much Toyota has tweaked the handling on the Prius, the Fusion will be the likely choice for people who value crisp handling, and of course those who want a sedan configuration and want to buy from a U.S. automaker. The FFH will also likely still have an advantage in rear-seat width, important for those who haul 3 in back regularly, while the Prius has the cargo-hauling advantage with its hatch.
Re the crack in the glass near the odometer, do you mean a crack in the clear plastic covering the gauges? That would be covered under warranty also, as long as it was due to a defect and not due to abuse. That might be hard to determine, but if I were you I'd take it to the dealer and see what they say.
Exactly. At 5,000 RPM, the horsepower peaks between the two engines, at 110.
Originally, yes, but they turned it all down in the end. The original statement implied that they were still asking for money and that is not true.
That has nothing to do with WHO is buying them though. My suggestion was that SUV buyers would pick the Camry, or similar, over a Prius.
The Prius is a "look at me I'm so green" kind of car IMO. A statement care if you will. I think people making a switch for more valid reasons would choose a real mid-sized sedan over the Prius.
I don't think you can fairly compare Camry hybrid sales to Prius sales anyway. Isn't the price of the Prius lower?
I am confused as to why an SUV buyer would pick the Camry, or any car for that matter. Wouldn't they buy an SUV? :confuse: Personally I find a hatchback a lot closer to an SUV than a sedan.
Why isn't wanting the versatility of a hatchback configuration a valid reason to choose a hatch over a sedan? Remember, the cargo room of full-hybrid sedans is compromised by the battery pack. Anyway, who are you to tell someone that their reason for buying a car isn't valid--even if it's only because they want to make a statement about their "greenness"? People buy cars to make a personal statement all the time.
The prices of the Prius and Camry Hybrid overlap. The Prius starts off around $23k and tops out around $30k, while the Camry starts around $27k and can get into the low $30s. The prices of Sonatas are a lot lower than those mid-sizers like the Accord, yet we compare sales of those cars all the time. So why not compare Prius sales to sales of other mid-sized hybrid cars?
Anyway, Prius should be more properly compared to compact sales, not midsize. Unless you're willing to say that all midsizers are overpriced because they're so much more expensive than the Versa. Like Versa and Elantra, Prius is not a legitimate midsize car: it makes it to that EPA designation due to interior volume technicalities, but dimensionally they're compacts or subcompacts(the Prius is narrower than any compact out there, in fact). By dimensionally I'm looking at length, width, wheelbase, legroom, hip room, etc.
Personally I look first at interior room when determining whether a car is the "right size". The smaller the car is on the outside, the better I like it. The fact that a car could have a compact exterior and mid-sized interior is actually a big plus for me.
Then you didn't read my original comment. A Camry or Fusion would be more "plush" than a Prius. Therefore someone coming out of an SUV for FE purposes would choose one of them over a Prius every time I say.
Personally I find a hatchback a lot closer to an SUV than a sedan.
I agree with that. However not everyone who bought an SUV bought it for the for the "U". They bought it because it's a nice safe comfortable ride. Again, if they are willing to step down to a mid-sized hybrid sedan, I still wager they would go for the more comfortable models.
Anyway, who are you to tell someone that their reason for buying a car isn't valid--even if it's only because they want to make a statement about their "greenness"?
More valid to the argument. Try to keep up backy! :P
The "payback" time of a hybrid doesn't seem to be there yet for someone driving 15K miles or less per year, even when gas prices are at $3 per gal.
What is "plush" anyway? I wouldn't call a lot of SUVs I've ridden in "plush."
Have you driven the 2010 FFH, TCH, and Prius and compared their relative "plushness" and comfort levels? Have you interviewed every person who is going from an S_V (no U involved, remember) to a hybrid car to see whether they would prefer a sedan or hatchback? No? Yet you are sure that someone coming out of an SUV for FE purposes would choose one of them over a Prius every time--even though the Prius trumps them on FE? Okee doke.
As long as you are telling people what is valid or not valid to buy, we could talk about everyone who buys an SUV for any reason but going off-road did so for an invalid reason. But that would be ridiculous, wouldn't it?
Other people say something else. They obviously have different buying criteria than you do. For example, check out posts 172, 744, 1471, and 1693 here:
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0a4a2c.f0a4a16/0
Have you driven the 2010 FFH, TCH, and Prius and compared their relative "plushness" and comfort levels?
No, and I stated that previously.
Have you interviewed every person who is going from an S_V (no U involved, remember) to a hybrid car to see whether they would prefer a sedan or hatchback? No? Yet you are sure that someone coming out of an SUV for FE purposes would choose one of them over a Prius every time--even though the Prius trumps them on FE?
IMO, yes, I do think they would look right past the Prius and go with the more comfortable cruisers. Is that so hard to understand? What's your opinion on the matter? Obviously you don't agree with mine so what is your take?
As long as you are telling people what is valid or not valid to buy,
Again, valid to the argument. I never said what you are implying.
This has just become pointless to argue anymore because I just read your profile. Looks like anything negative about the Prius is off-limits with you. :sick:
744 shows us someone looking for a Prius to replace an SUV but we never find out if he bought one or not. His posts just stop. Same for 1471.
1693's author just tells us about his/her new Prius but I don't see where s/he owned an SUV that was traded in for it.
Those were all nice, but are there any newer posts that pertain to the argument at hand? Someone who traded in an SUV for a Prius and passed up the Camry hybrid, Altima hybrid, Malibu hybrid and Fusion hybrid? Obvioulsy the last one isn't out yet so I'll settle for the other three.
Part of my decision was influenced by the fact that we were keeping our old 1997 minivan as a spare and/or for any of our kids to use. So, not being a handyman who is constantly hauling stuff, I figured we'd still have the old minivan for those rare occassions when more than a sedan is needed.
I don't know if we are unusual or if a lot of other folks also just keep their old SUV or minivan and therefore the utility factor of their new mid-size car is not really a factor. I have one relative who bought a Prius, they kept their (not so old) minvan and just stopped using it for commuting. Their choice of the Prius was all about the mpg rating, not any utility factor.
I don't think people buy SUV's because they want to have some special feeling of superiority over others. That's the kind of crap I here from SUV haters all the time. We have two vehicles. One is a SUV and I like the idea that I can easily get around when we get a foot of snow which a Prius or Camry can't do. We like the fact that we can go to Lowe's or Home Depot and put an 8 foot long piece of lumber or a large gas grill (assembled) in our vehicle without renting or borrowing a vehicle. We also like the fact that we can put 7 people in our SUV without taking 2 vehicles when we are going out to eat or to a movie and have out of town guests or we have our 3 Kids, Daughter-In-Law and Grandson. It absolutely has nothing to do with being "lord of the world." I frankly think Prius owners have a better than thou attitude.
I frankly think Prius owners have a better than thou attitude.
Funny... that's the kind of crap I hear from hybrid haters all the time.
Could we dispense with the name-calling and get back to discussing cars?
I thought the Mazda 6i SV was supposed to be a mostly hypothetical car, like the base Altima. But my local dealer, not a very large one, has five of them in stock. These are the only manual transmission examples of the Mazda6 within 100 miles of here, according to the Mazda website.
I'd probably go for the black one, if the SV had (a) keyless entry and (b) cruise control. So:
Does anyone out there know if these items are available as dealer-installed accessories? And would the cost be so high that I'd be better off hunting down a (very scarce down here) 6i Sport instead?
It is. Dealers are only allowed to order them if they are offered by their regional head of distribution. I have 2 on my lot.
These are the only manual transmission examples of the Mazda6 within 100 miles of here, according to the Mazda website.
There are no i Sport's in your area with a 6-speed manual? That's odd. I guess they may be popular in your area, and could be sold out.
Always call a dealer, or submit an online inquiry because Mazda's web site may not always be accurate.
Does anyone out there know if these items are available as dealer-installed accessories?
Cannot be done by a Mazda dealer. You are better off finding a Sport.
Again, best bet could be to submit an online inquiry to a few dealers. Let them know what you are looking for and see what they say. Good luck!
Heard any more rumors of the 6-speed manual for the 6S for 2010 lately?
50 pounds ago10 years ago.Official changes or modifications for MY2010 have not been announced, either. The only alteration I am aware of is that production Job #2 will incorporate Hiroshima built 2.5L engines into the production of the NA Mazda6 along with the ones built in Mexico. Its basically just the block and heads. All other components are assembled at AAI (alternator, exhaust, etc)
Therefore someone coming out of an SUV for FE purposes would choose one of them [mid-sized hybrid sedan] over a Prius every time I say.
So I provided a few examples from the Prius Prices Paid discussion to illustrate that there are SUV owners who have seriously considered, and purchased, a Prius. Some of these examples are very specific that the decision was based on FE. Here are snippets of the examples I posted, with key text bolded:
From 172 (someone trading an SUV for a Prius): "My question is - what do I have to be careful of at this point? We already agreed upfront on MSRP, which seems standard in the Bay Area. He promised a fair trade-in value for my SUV (which he preliminarily estimated through Edmunds figures, amounting to about $2000 below Kelley - any suggestions on this?). And I've told him that I'll be paying cash."
From 744 (looking for pricing on a Prius): "We are new to California and gas prices are forcing my hand out of an 06 SUV."
From 1471: "The 4 week waiting list [for a Prius] is probably not such a bad thing since I have a SUV I am trying to unload - 4 weeks might not be enough."
From 1693: "I think I am getting the car {Prius} free with the savings from the suv that I gave up."
Note that all of these posts are from a time when there was at least one mid-sized hybrid sedan available--Camry Hybrid at minimum, and for some also the Altima and GM hybrids. As you pointed out, the FFH isn't available for sale yet, so there aren't yet any posts in the Prius "prices paid" discussion about how someone chose a Prius over the FFH. But wait a few months, when the 2010 FFH and 2010 Prius are at dealers, and then I predict we'll see that kind of comparison... just as folks in the recent past, represented by the posts above, took a good look at and (in some cases) actully bought a Prius instead of the mid-sized sedan hybrids available to them.
I read every example you gave me in that post and not one of those people said they actually bought a Prius. They all just said they were thinking about it or trying to buy one. If you follow their post trail to the end (just click on their user name to see their posts like I did) you'll see that they still don't claim to have bought a Prius months later. Just some price checking and such went on. None of them claimed to have cross-shopped the Prius with a Camry hybrid, or any other mid-sized hybrid, either. That is another part of my claim which I still stand by.
I wouldn't be surprised if all of them are still driving those SUVs because they didn't want to lose a ton of cash trading them in when gas prices were high.
I think this is getting old because I feel like I'm repeating myself over and over again. It's boring me so I can't imagine what the other forum members feel like right now. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
It is.
A new topic, anyone?
I can't help it if you want to nit-pick, multiple times, every example someone posts here. I only pulled a few examples out of one discussion in Town Hall. It's not like it's an exhaustive survey. But you're right, it is getting repetitive so I agree it is time to move on.
Our first year OnStar subscription will expire next month and we are debating whether it is worth the $300 for the annual subscription renewal. At the beginning we had some fun with the turn-by-turn navigation and the hands-free telephone feature but these are turning out to be novelties. Furthermore, we have AAA in the event of a breakdown or locking your keys inside, thus from a cost/benefit perspective it would appear that OnStar is a rip-off and a cash cow for GM.
So my question are:
(1) Is OnStar really worth the cost?
(2) Are there any renewal discounts and if so is there a special discount code?
So far we’ve received only one email reminder and no hard sell tactics. You would think in this tough economic climate GM would be pressing hard for our business but so far no pressure.
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Personally I don't drive much so I have only used OnStar once or twice since I got it in September on my Malibu. Do I need it, no. Do I want it, ya. I am in the same position as you are. I also am not sure if I will keep my XM Radio. Love it but not much use when my commute is 10 minutes.
would be worth it. Not the $300 however, since you already have AAA.
Back to sedans... Who or what do you think will be the sedan to buy in the next year or two?