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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    Dealers around me have the six-speed with the 4-cylinder. It probably just varies with what people buy out of stock in that area. I don't think it means any dark plan on the part of GM to sell only the four-speed transmission.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Although not in this class, the new Camaro was a complete disappointment. Horrible interior design. If this is the car that's supposed to save Chevrolet, I hope they have a plan B.

    Plan B is already in effect and is your wallet and my wallet. :mad:
  • mikebztmikebzt Member Posts: 44
    Actually I have found Upstate NY has the best deals on Hyundais
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I had a conversation with a person in CT over on the Mazda6 forum about the price difference between what new/used Mazda6s went for in the NE US vs. Chicago area. He works for a Mazda dealer and is very familiar with both dealer/auction prices. It was quite eye opening. It appeared that there was several thousand $ difference on both new and used like vehicles between the two markets. I kind of joked that one could probably make some decent margin just buying several in Chicago and transporting to the NE and reselling.

    I purchased my 07 Mazda6 I4 auto VE for $16,400(MSRP about $21,400) in 2007 and I know of others that paid as low as $16,000 for the same car. The person from the NE said that those prices couldn't be touched up there.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    That is good to know. Might be worth a little trip for a good deal on a new car.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,306
    even fitzmall only has 6 speeds for their 2lt's(v6).
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • vanman1vanman1 Member Posts: 1,397
    Ordering a 6-speed Malibu is always an option.

    We ordered my wife's car and you have the option of the incentives now or the incentives when the car arrives. It worked out the original incentives were the best but it was nice to get car exactly as we wanted and at the best possible price.

    With sales as they are it would probably only take 4 -5 weeks.
  • vanman1vanman1 Member Posts: 1,397
    The 4-speeds will be all phased out in the coming year or two. The Aura is standard with the 6-speed already.
  • cannon3cannon3 Member Posts: 296
    in the next 5 years who do you think will hold the top sedan title? With what I am reading here at Edmunds and other sedan boards it is really looking to me that the Accord/Camry may be loosing its luster. People are looking for different in a sedan. Competition has given real choices to choose from. With the Malibu, Fusion/Milan, Sonata, Passat, to name a few to choose from. As the word spreads that Accord/Camry no longer hold the reliability/quality card.
    My predictions are the Camry/Malibu will battle for number 1. Fusion/Accord will battle for number 3 spot. Can't forget the Nissan Altima. With the new 2010 Fusion/Milan coming on strong with very competitive power plants.. I say the Altima will move to the number 4 spot.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Look at the numbers:
    Malibu sold 178,253 in 2008 (in a redesign year)
    Camry sold 436,617 in 2008
    Accord sold 372,789
    Fusion sold 149,000

    The Camry sold more than all of Chrysler's entire car division and they make up a lot of rentals.
    Malibu might be able to take the 2nd spot if the Aura, Impala, and G6 are discontinued and stop creating fake demand.
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    I'm gonna go out on a limb and predict(FANFARE).....in three years The Ford Fusion hybrid will be on top,maybe not in sales but in ratings.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Do some reading. The Fusion hybrid is the most expensive non-luxury hybrid out there. A $30,000 car won't be number one, especially with gas being so low.
  • delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    The best sellers in the next 5 years:
    1.Camry 2.Accord 3.Malibu 4.Altima 5.Fusion
    This will be the order for the next 5 years..The Malibu and Fusion are improving but not close to Camry/Accord.
    Also the altima`s quality has diminished significantly.Infact all Nissans are slipping quickly.All Nissan Suv`s except xterra and in all its sedans - quality is slipping.Cheap plastic and parts,diminishing quality,,plus improving competition.They have to shape up or be prepared to lose badly.
    Surprise package- Sonata,, affordable ,good performance,,much improved reliability,decent styling and good warranty.But resale value and image in the tank.Perception taakes time to change-- but can see its sales climbing up gradually.
    Good to see malibu and fusion improving..They need aggresive styling and presentation.Bland wont work.
    But , as always,, I hope they continue to improve and innovate a lot-- Heats up the market,,keeps camry/accord on its toes,, high standards maintained-- win win for buyer :blush:
  • maxamillion85maxamillion85 Member Posts: 78
    Next Five Years

    1) Camry 2) Accord 3) Altima 4) Malibu 5) Fusion 6)Sonata 7)Optima

    I disagree, as the owner of an 05 Altima, I'd say the current Altima is better in almost every way to my 05...only area where I find my Altima better than the new one is styling. If anybody's quality is diminishing and slipping its Toyotas! From the materials to overall quality the current Altima has it all over the previous generation Altima and IMO the CURRENT Camry...which IMO has to be one of the most overrated, over hyped sedans in this class. As a matter of fact I think Autoblog did a story on how Toyota's Resale value numbers are slipping because of nagging quality and reliability issues. In just about every comparison test the Altima has beaten the Camry...and everything else except the Accord. When it comes to feature content the only car in this class that offers more gadgetry is the Mazda6. The Altima was the first (and one of the few to this day) to offer push button start, bluetooth from the factory, xenon headlamps, CVT and other features. The one area where Nissan sorely lacks is safety. The lack of rear adjusting headrest, Traction control and Stability control standard on all models and a few other safety features is bad on Nissan's part.

    Only two comparisons I can think of off the top of my head where the Camry actually beat the Altima and they are both by Motortrend...other than that the Altima almost always comes out on top (In the Case of Consumer Reports) or near the top (Car and Driver) and while I've seen some complaints about the Altima's interior being spartan I've seen far more complaints about the Camry's "Un-Toyota-Like" interior materials and craftsmanship.

    As for the uptake in Malibu sales, I read over at GMI that in some recent months Malibu fleet sales have been has high as 50 percent...could be the reason sales are on the uptick. I'll have to find that article.

    One car I'd like to see do better sales-wise is the Mazda6. Such a great car...and so unappreciated. I saw a white S GT driving around Chicago today...NICE.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Do some reading. The Fusion hybrid is the most expensive non-luxury hybrid out there.

    Take your own advice. The Fusion hybrid starts at $27,270 according to Edmunds, which isn't much more than an Altima Hybrid ($26,650) or a Camry Hybrid ($26,150), yet offers more standard features than the other two and also trumps them in gas mileage. IMO it's more than competitive in this market.

    You want the most expensive "non-luxury" Hybrid? Check out the Toyota Highlander ($34,700, ouch!), and I'm sure there are others that break the $30K barrier.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Good to see malibu and fusion improving..They need aggresive styling and presentation.Bland wont work.

    Really? It's seemed to work for the Camry, the most bland midsize sedan on the market today...
  • delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    The reason bland wont work for malibu/fusion is b`cos that market is already taken by the camcord.And perceptions take long time to change.So even if malibu and fusion improve,but have bland styling//folks would then simply prefer the camcord.
    In this day and age,,u have to be a little different ,,if your previous track record is poor.U cant just wait and watch.Create sleek,stylish designs so that folks notice u and decide to give u a 2nd chance.They have to get out of their rental car image.
    When altima came out in 2002,,the redesign was stylish exteriorly with decent reliability and it was a success.The new 08 redesign could not do that.
    Same reason why sonata and optima have to be more sleek with more gadgetry.
    For example,,the new Saturn Vue SUV ,is totally redesigned, sleek and stylish and folks are giving it a 2nd look.The Ford edge and Buick enclave are other examples.Takes time but atleast Saturn is trying to change its image.Sad part-Saturn probably would be discontinued. :sick:
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    I don't expect it to be tops in sales,which I had already wrote.I said it would be the most highly rated car.Secondly,gas prices will go up.Trust me on that.Hopefully not as high as $4.00,but I expect $3.00 gas by the end of the year or earlier.Opec will make sure of that. :cry:
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753

    You want the most expensive "non-luxury" Hybrid? Check out the Toyota Highlander ($34,700, ouch!), and I'm sure there are others that break the $30K barrier.

    Only 34700? Yah right, good luck finding a base model Highlander Hybrid. I just did an inventory search of 3 dealers near me, the lowest priced HH, Ready for this?

    Really ready?

    OK, $46,454!!!!! This was the #1 reason I did not get one when I was shopping for a 7 passenger vehicle, and I would have preferred the hybrid over the Veracruz, but not for $10,000 more in cost. I have yet to see one for less than $40K on any dealer lot around here. I did find one about 150 miles away for $39,205, but apples to apples, it has less on it than the Veracruz, doesn't have leather, and only a power drivers seat. Yep a very expensive non luxury hybrid for sure!

    Oh and if you want to see a large inventory of very expensive HH, check out the pauly toyota inventory, put a pillow under your jaw before you do though.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    I disagree. Personally, I don't see styling as a major factor for MOST midsize car customers. Quality and reliability are BY FAR the biggest way to get people in the showrooms, and it's something that the CamCord has established. The Altima that you mentioned didn't become more successful simply due to it's styling (in fact, I thought the clear-lense taillights were more of a turn-off to most midsize buyers), IMO it's more to do with the large size increase over the previous-gen to get it in the ballpark of the other contenders.

    The Fusion had (and still does have) unique styling, yet sales still pale in comparison to the CamCord. IMO it'll improve it's sales when people get over their ancient and outdated perceptions of Ford and actually feel comfortable in purchasing them again. The same goes for the Malibu.
  • delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    I think ,if people dont mind the image,,nowadays ,minivans are much better value than CUV`s.More space,more bells and whistles,7 seaters,plus cost much less than similarly equipped SUV`s or CUV`s.But ,yes,,people probably dislike the soccer mom minivan image but minivans in my opinion are an amazing amount of car and value for the money.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Sorry I was off by $3,000. Also the highlander is an SUV, not a sedan.
    The Fusion is a great car but I don't think it will crack the top three.
    Depending on what happens to the Detroit three, we might see Malibu crack the top three best sedans sales. More than likely we will see the status quo with an evening out of the numbers; less gap between 1-2-3 etc.
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    Comparing my 2009 Camry, with the features it has, the price on the sticker was $28,395. I just priced out a 2010 Fusion Hybrid with very similar features, and just a touch more due to the packaging, the price for that is $29,590. I also checked stock at a few dealers for a model close to mine, and only found 1 under $30K, and it did not have the sunroof that mine does, it is listed at $28,249.

    Overall, the Fusion Hybrid is priced dead on to the Camry Hybrid. If you want a top of the line Fusion Hybrid, $31,940, top of the line Camry Hybrid, $32,227.

    It is obvious, those who say the Fusion is more expensive than the Camry Hybrid, haven't done their shopping. I have, and if I had waited a year before buying the Camry, I would have an order in for a FFH right now.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Why do Camcords sell 300-400K per year? REPEAT BUYERS! How many Camcord owners are buying their 2nd, 3rd or 6th vehicle? Fusion is just now starting to see repeat buyers. And you really have to include both the Fusion and Milan sales together.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    True, you have to count the Fulan. You should probably add the G6 and Aura sales to the Malibu too. One thing is for sure: we the best choice of mid-size sedan in history. For $25K you can role in a sweet ride. Whether you like the lines of the frugality of the Hyundai, Mazda6 or the 6 speed of the Malibu, you really can't go wrong (accept for Chrysler). :lemon:
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    What about the new Prius and Insight. Anyone think that they new designs and better aligned prices will slash in the midsize sedan market. Are they the new 2.0? Maybe it's me, but I think the Insight would look good with some better wheels on it.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,306
    another factory or expand what they have now, if they expect to sell more mkfuslans.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • vanman1vanman1 Member Posts: 1,397
    You think Honda could have at least tried to make a better looking Hybrid. The Insight is actually uglier than the ugly Prius and I didn't think that was possible?

    :sick:
  • tim156tim156 Member Posts: 308
    The most significant thing about the Fusion Hybrid is that it can operate in electric mode up to 47 mph. If you live and work in the city you could possibly go weeks without having to fuel up. Once this fact reaches hybrid buyers, with everything else the Fusion has to offer in styling and standard features, foreign hybrid sales will be affected. I just hope Ford can keep up with demand.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    To each his own. I actually think the new Insight look better than the Prius. I also think the old Fusion looks better than all the 2010's except for the Mazda 6 :confuse:
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Look at the numbers:
    Malibu sold 178,253 in 2008 (in a redesign year)
    Camry sold 436,617 in 2008
    Accord sold 372,789
    Fusion sold 149,000

    Even if there were 400,000 Malibu or Fusion buyers out there (which is not going to happen), GM and Ford could not build that many. Dreamers can dream though. The magazines may not like the Camry, but it gives people what they want. It's a comfortable, reliable, quiet car, that gets them from A to B with no fuss. Most Camry and Accord buyers are repeat buyers, so unless these two cars start really giving their owners major problems, this trend will continue.
  • madpistolmadpistol Member Posts: 126
    When altima came out in 2002,,the redesign was stylish exteriorly with decent reliability and it was a success.The new 08 redesign could not do that.

    Really? So the fact that Nissan tried to keep the Altima the same size (and even make it a little smaller) is a bad thing? Have you even driven one? They're a blast as far as driving dynamics goes. After sitting in an '02-'06 model and sitting in the current '07-present generation, the current generation is a huge step forward for Nissan! If that's not enough proof of what Nissan can do, go sit in the '09 Murano or the '09 Maxima; both of those cars are more Infiniti-lite than Nissan. If you're still not convinced, go test drive the new 370Z. NOTHING in this market compares to the new Z!

    You talk as if GM and Ford have all the answers to the current market, but sales numbers speak of another story. The Fusion and the new Malibu are a great step forward for Ford and GM. Now all they have to do is fix another dozen cars each and they'll be on their way to success again.

    Don't rag on Nissan while the other Domestics are deep in the red. At least Nissan is managing to stay afloat.
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    The pain is finding little cracks and seeping in.
    The only info I have on the Altima is that the trunk is 12 cu. ft.
    The only car in this topic I want to afford is the Malibu. Chevy will let me add just the sunroof to the base LS for 7something extra. Will the others do the same?
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    what makes people so smart?
    when I was young and poor, people used to say to me "If you're so smart, why aren't you rich?"
    Many people have bad perceptions.
    looking left to right from end of my driveway: I see 12 GM's, 5 Fords, 4 Hondas, and onesies after that. No Camry's or Altimas.
  • maxamillion85maxamillion85 Member Posts: 78
    gotta co-sign on this post.
  • maxamillion85maxamillion85 Member Posts: 78
    agreed. I drive a truck and I was at a trucks top in Gary, IN this afternoon...the truck was carrying the new Insight...U-G-L-Y. Makes the Prius look like a beauty queen
  • maxamillion85maxamillion85 Member Posts: 78
    When did Chevy start offering options on the BASE LS? As far as I've seen the Sunroof option is available on the 1LT and up...not the LS.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Count on it being dealer installed.
  • maxamillion85maxamillion85 Member Posts: 78
    that's why I figured...if thats the case just about every car out there has that option.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Don't rag on Nissan while the other Domestics are deep in the red. At least Nissan is managing to stay afloat.

    You can thank Renault, because without them, Nissan would be a distant memory.

    As for their cars, the Altima isn't any better in terms of handling/cornering if it isn't in 3.5SE trim. My wife's DD is a '07 2.5S, and it's mush compared to my Mazda6. At least Mazda (and Honda IIRC) carries the "sport" suspension as standard equipment across the trim levels. Unlike Nissan, where there's a big difference between the 2.5S and 3.5SE.

    I will admit that the '07-up is a step forward from the previous generation. My mother has a '03, and the difference, especially in the interior design, fit-and-finish and materials, is like night and day. Some may not like the dark-colored interior, but it's still leagues better than the '03.

    Off-topic for a second: the 370Z is a great car, but the Murano and Maxima are both overpriced, and the Max should have been AWD to not only handle the torque-steer from the V6, but to better differentiate it from the Altima.
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    Dealer installed sun-roof is just asking for trouble. Leaks and breakdowns.
    Also the base Malibu has the archaic four speed. GM was too cheap to put the six speed in the base models. :lemon:
  • madpistolmadpistol Member Posts: 126
    As for their cars, the Altima isn't any better in terms of handling/cornering if it isn't in 3.5SE trim. My wife's DD is a '07 2.5S, and it's mush compared to my Mazda6. At least Mazda (and Honda IIRC) carries the "sport" suspension as standard equipment across the trim levels. Unlike Nissan, where there's a big difference between the 2.5S and 3.5SE.

    While I agree with this statement (mostly), there are a lot of people in this world that want a compromise between sport and comfort. The '08 Accord seems to strike this balance perfectly, while the 2.5S is slightly sportier. If you want a full-on sport suspension (and all the jarring that comes with it), get a Mazda6 or an Altima 3.5SE. Both of these cars have fairly stiff suspensions that act more like sports cars than sedans. Don't get me wrong though. If you put the right tires on a 2.5S, it'll be very entertaining on curvy mountain roads.

    As rough as the roads are around here, I personally couldn't justify that sort of suspension for day-to-day driving, but other people can. It's all about what you like in a car's drive. :)
  • dbostondriverdbostondriver Member Posts: 559
    All about free choice. These are the best sedan choices in history (sans Dodge Avenger). Sonata, Accord, Camry, Fusion, Malibu, Mazda6, Altima, 3series, Prius, Insight, Jetta, etc. I would even take a used Charger Patrol car at a good deal. Name it Elwood after the blues brothers. :shades:
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Unless you need heat or air-conditioning?
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Dealer installed sun-roof is just asking for trouble. Leaks and breakdowns.

    I don't know, my Contour had a dealer installed Webestco sunroof (the OEM supplier) that offered additional functionality beyond the OEM installation (it opened with the alarm fob, closed with key off unless I told it to stay open), tilt and slide. 10 years, 150+k, no issues.

    OTOH, the '93 Accord sunroof leaked periodically because the dealer had some special tool to clean out the drains or something. About every 4 years this would happen.
  • delthekingdeltheking Member Posts: 1,152
    What I meant was the 08 altima has to be compared to the 08 accord or 07 camry.These 2 are the benchmarks now.Obviously u cant compare the 02 and 07 altimas b`cos definetelt the 07 redesign will be better.But then again the Camcord also have improved over their previous versions significantly,,so they are the benchmarks again..
    The altima`s interior has so much plastic and there are some minor rattles.
    If u want a taut ride-there is the accord.If a comfy ride needed -Camry.
    Actually the compromise for comfy ride with taut drive is the Camry -SE- the sportier version-- the steering is much more taut with more road feel and suspension.
    The altima i feel is underpowered.Plus it is smaller than the other 2 and its resale value is not up there.
    Also the competition is more fierce now with Camord,sonata,optima,malibu and fusion for the 07 altima compared to 02 when its only opponents were Camcord.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Underpowered? The V6 versions are all essentially evenly matched (except that the CVT puts it down much more effectively and efficiently vs. the Accord and Camry automatics), and the Altima's I4 is the fastest 4-cylinder sedan among the three.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    I've driven the Camry SE, and trust me, besides the supposed suspension upgrades, it still doesn't hold a candle to the Mazda6 and the Altima 3.5SE. There's only so much you can do to an appliance without a complete makeover...

    And the Altima underpowered? Compared to what? BMW?

    Not only did Grad get it right saying that the V6 versions are too closely matched, but IMO the 4-cylinder not only has the HP to keep up, but the fuel economy is outstanding compared to the rest as well. The Altima is anything BUT underpowered.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I'm not a sunroof guy anyway, but if I were, the idea of some guy taking a saws-all to the roof of my new car would frighten me. I just see a big difference between a car being designed and built with a sunroof integrated into the roof and just having a random hole cut in the finished roof of a car.

    I'd feel the same way about slapping an after-market turbo on the engine vs. buying a car that comes from the factory with a turbo.
  • madpistolmadpistol Member Posts: 126
    If the Altima is considered underpowered, where does that put the Camry? 158hp 2.4L vs. 175 HP 2.5L. The V6's are comparable across the board; IMO, all of the V6's in this category, minus the Optima's little 2.7L, are very competitive with each other. However, on the 4-cyl models, the Altima outpaces the Accord (Altima has a lot more torque) and absolutely trounces the Camry, along with plenty of other models in this segment. The only car that I think can keep pace is the '09 Mazda6's 2.5L 4-cyl. If you think the CVT is a drawback to the Altima, you're sadly mistaking, because it is one of, if not the fastest N/A 4-cyl in the segment.

    And don't bring plastic and rattles into the argument either. I've heard numerous complaints from current Camry owners about lots of plastic and rattles on the interior. I've also driven an '08 Camry SE, and as far as drive goes, it just can't compare to the Altima, Accord, Malibu, etc. You're talking about putting a sport suspension on what is generally referred to as a "sofa on wheels." It just doesn't work.

    Also, if you've got some time to kill, go onto the Accord boards and look at all of the threads about VCM shifting (V6) and headlight flickering (4-cyl). It's hard to believe that the "Benchmark" for 2008/09 has problems too.
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