Midsize Sedans 2.0

iluvmysephia1 · April 2009

but a little bug told me to avoid new VW's like the plague. Because they don't hold up mechanically over the long haul. I would trust Mitsubishi products and even Kia/Hyundai products to be better-made and better Warrantied, and indeed they are. When I think VW, I think over-priced and lesser-backed by the manufacturer, not a good combo.

backy · April 2009

If I were to buy a two-year-old Hyundai or Mitsubishi, I would get only 3 years and the remainder of 60k miles of bumper-to-bumper warranty. I got four years and the remainder of 74k miles of bumper-to-bumper warranty on the two-year-old VW I just bought. My friend got five years and 68k miles of b2b warranty on her one-year-old Passat. Which is better backed? The Hyundai/Mitsubishi or the VW?

As for reliability, the '08 Passat my friend just bought is rated "above average" in reliability by CR. (My Rabbit is also "above average".) The Galant? Not even enough of them sold to be able to rate for reliability. But CR ranks the Eclipse as Average and Outlander as Above Average. I don't see a big difference there.

Anyway, if I were to buy a Mitsubishi (a Galant, for this discussion), then I'd have to drive it every day.

:sick:

berri · April 2009

Believe it or not, I've actually gotten a couple of VW as rentals. Fun to drive and nice interior, maybe the quality and reliability has improved, but the prices seem steep compared to the competition. That may not be a problem in Europe given the heavy unionization there, but I think may become a problem selling in Asia and western hemisphere. The again, they seem to be going the Toyota route and building factories in their overseas markets so that may overcome the obstacle.

m6user · April 2009

V'dub is just slightly behind Toyota in worldwide sales and is poised to overtake in the near future. They are huge in China, South America and have shown a smaller drop in sales in the N. America market than most. I think the quality has gotten better from what I've read but has a long ways to go to overcome the perception of low quality (Ford is fighting same battle). Also, if you read the VW forums, it seems VW dealers are pretty much abhored from both the sales and backshop sides. The dealers may end up being their Achilles heel in the U.S. if they don't address them as well as increasing quality.

stephen987 · April 2009

The again, they seem to be going the Toyota route and building factories in their overseas markets so that may overcome the obstacle.

Actually VW pioneered this approach in Latin America where protectionist policies made it difficult for vehicle importers to gain a foothold. VW's Brazilian arm was established back in the early 1950s. (Of course, we could call it the "Ford route" since Ford established its first UK assembly plant in 1914. . .)

thegraduate · April 2009

Also, if you read the VW forums, it seems VW dealers are pretty much abhored from both the sales and backshop sides. The dealers may end up being their Achilles heel in the U.S. if they don't address them as well as increasing quality.

Excellent point. Even if people buy a car knowing it doesn't lead in reliability, they at least expect good customer service when having maintenance and repairs done. My Accord (the 2006) had quite a few quality problems early in life (minor things... loose rear-view mirror glass, stuck fuel flap, CD Changer malfunction), but the fact that I was so well taken care of comfort me for down the road if/when other things crop up.

m6user · April 2009

Exactly. I had a 93 LeSabre which I really liked and felt gave me good service(kept 13 years). When I had "Kars for Kids" tow it away I pulled out the maint folder from my desk and went through it.
Wow. I had a lot of repairs both under warranty and out of warranty over the years. The Buick dealer treated me so well and I enjoyed the car so much that it didn't bother me all that much. If I had had a hassle every time I returned to the dealer my whole experience would have been tainted big time.

berri · April 2009

I sure haven't been impressed by Honda service and it is way too expensive compared to Ford and Toyota (around here at least).

thegraduate · April 2009

The oil change on my 4-cyl Accord is cheaper than that on my parents' V6 3.5L Taurus, so the prices are fairly similar here. $34.95 compared to $37. Of course, I always have a coupon for a $24.95 one that I use.

I was really talking about the personal customer service, though, not the price or actual parts. The local Ford dealer has been good, although with only two services so far, its hard to say how it'll be. We've got high hopes though.

backy · April 2009

If I had to rank the mid-sized cars by the experience I've had at dealer service departments over the years, here it is (best to worst):

Dodge Avenger
Chrysler Sebring
Mazda6
Hyundai Sonata/Mitsubishi Galant
VW Passat
Nissan Altima
Toyota Camry
Honda Accord
Mercury Milan

Not enough experience with dealer service to rate:

Chevy Malibu, Saturn Aura, Kia Optima, Subaru Legacy, Ford Fusion

If I were rating the cars based on the cars vs. dealership service, the list would look much, much different.

berri · April 2009

Yeah, its all a local thing I guess. But I haven't been all that impressed with the two Honda's I bought. They didn't seem put together all that tight and needed several initial dealer visits. One was made in Alabama and one in Britain, so maybe that is part of it! The Alabama van has been a real rattle trap. I understand they make Accords there now too, but I think I'd avoid one made there.

bhmr59 · April 2009

Hope you have better luck with your VW than you had with your BMW.

backy · April 2009

Since they are much different cars from different manufacturers, and the VW is seven years newer with 4 years of warranty, like-new condition, and half the miles of the BMW, not to mention a lot fewer "gadgets" to go wrong, I expect I will have better luck. Thanks for the thought.

But... neither car is a mid-sized sedan. So...

thegraduate · April 2009

Wait, what happened? You just got the car. What'd I miss with the 2000 Bimmer?

tlong · April 2009

I think the quality has gotten better from what I've read but has a long ways to go to overcome the perception of low quality (Ford is fighting same battle).

Not the same situation as Ford.

People want a combination of style, interior quality, refinement, performance, and reliability, economy, cost. They will sacrifice factors for others.

VW's strong points are style, interior quality, refinement, and performance to a lesser degree. They are relatively poor on reliability, lousy on customer service, and fairly high cost.

Ford has typically been low style, low interior quality, moderate refinement, low to moderate performance, decent reliability, and good cost. Their reliability has been improving and now so is their performance.

If you want low performance and style but high reliability and refinement you buy a Toyota.
:P

lilengineerboy · April 2009

Every Honda I've had ('89 Civic, '93 Civic, '93 Accord, '07 Accord) has squeaked and rattled a bit, especially at change of seasons. I always just assumed it was the car's way of talking with me and being social while cruising the highways.

I didn't find the reliability of the '93 Accord to be particularly stellar, so far the '07 has just had silly issues but nothing major. I don't plan on having it nearly as long as the other Accord (in fact, I am surprised I still have it now!), so I am not as worried about long term reliability as I am about resale, which was black booked at 13k for a car that MSRPd at 23.5k in '07. I consider that to be less than stellar. Had I paid full pop, I would've been really ticked.

berri · April 2009

I think all of the brands are starting to get similar. Heck, Honda has had well publicized tranny and A/C problems, both very expensive. The Ford Fusion has been stellar, but that's not true of all their vehicles. I also think many have similar depreciation when you compare out the door price with trade. The publications have to go by list price because price out the door varies. A Ford or Chevy will get you a few grand less than a Honda or Toyota on trade, but it also tends to cost a few grand less out the door. That said, the Honda's are sweet drivers though!

baggs32 · April 2009

The oil change on my 4-cyl Accord is cheaper than that on my parents' V6 3.5L Taurus, so the prices are fairly similar here. $34.95 compared to $37.

I'm not sure how your local dealers charge for the amount of oil they have to add back after the drain, but it's not uncommon around here for an oil change on a larger engine to cost more than one on a smaller engine. Your parent's V6 probably holds at least a quart more oil than your Accord. Oil is about $2 a quart right now so that might explain the price difference you are seeing. Those dealer advertised prices typically state "up to 4 quarts" and the D35 in the Taurus holds 5.5 quarts. YMMV of course.

lilengineerboy · April 2009

The Ford Fusion has been stellar, but that's not true of all their vehicles.

Yeah, I think its interesting with this "new Ford" emerging, the newer stuff (Fusion, Focus, MKS, etc) is proving to be more reliable, and the old stuff is fading away. Most of the complaints I hear now are from vehicles made in the 90s.

akirby · April 2009

Anything that was new or significantly redesigned after 2005 has been pretty much bulletproof - or at least above average. This will continue to improve as the older models are replaced or redesigned.

m6user · April 2009

I was referring to the perception of quality only and not to all the other factors you mention....so, yes it is the same situation that they are both fighting a perception of low quality/reliability. I haven't had personal exerience with either for quite some time. Last Ford product owned was a 1968 Mustang(great experience) and last VW was a 1965 Karmann Ghia(very poor experience) so I can't even offer a personal opinion on their modern offerings. However, everything I've read lately is that both(especially Ford) have raised their quality/reliability rankings. But like I said, it will take more time for peoples perceptions to catch up with reality.

I will say that my nephew is a VW technician at a dealership and he recommended I buy a Mazda6 over a VW Jetta. I bought the Mazda6 and have had absolutely no problems in 28,000 miles.

plekto · April 2009

VW's strong points are style, interior quality, refinement, and performance to a lesser degree. They are relatively poor on reliability, lousy on customer service, and fairly high cost.

Ford has typically been low style, low interior quality, moderate refinement, low to moderate performance, decent reliability, and good cost. Their reliability has been improving and now so is their performance.

If you want low performance and style but high reliability and refinement you buy a Toyota.
******
VWs are fine if you don't get a turbo-equipped model. The rest of the reliability issues are pretty much the same as all of the German industry. Their suppliers for electrical and mechanical sub-systems(knobs/switches/sensors/etc) are barely D grade rubbish. Toyota, OTOH, has top marks here. The cars are utter toads but the interior and accessory parts just don't break and the stuff keeps working year after year. So if you *do* buy a vehicle form a German company, get it with literally as little electronics and accessories as humanly possible.

Both Toyota and VW have lousy transmission parts suppliers, though. GM is the only make I'd trust an automatic in. But that said, the VW, Honda, Toyota, and Mazda/Ford manuals are very very good - far far better than anything GM makes.

I'm soon to be looking for a newer vehicle myself. A lot of small European cars are on the list. 4 cylinder, no turbo, and manual, of course.

jeffyscott · April 2009

Some of us make a distinction between quality and reliability. Reliability means mechanical parts work and do not break. Quality is things like the materials that VW uses in it's interiors (eg. feel the headliner compared to some other makes) and heavier guage steel with, perhaps, better rust prevention.

m6user · April 2009

I can understand that to a degree. Kind of like "fit and finish" may equate more to a feeling or look of quality. I feel a quality part (wherever it may be in the vehicle) will be a reliable part and vice versa, if a part is reliable I consider it to be a quality part.

If (to steal a phrase) "quality is job 1", quality engineering, parts and construction go in, a reliable car should come out IMO. However, I also realize that quality/reliablity can be measured in so many ways and by so many agencies that it is hard to put your money on any one of them to make an argument.

stephen987 · April 2009

The Consumer Reports approach is to say that something is "unreliable" if it requires repair or replacement. Thus a lot of vehicles are labeled "unreliable" because of trim problems, rattles, paint issues, and the like. I would call that a "quality problem" rather than a "reliability problem." IMO a "reliability problem" is one that prevents the vehicle from functioning as designed--either the car won't run properly, or won't stop properly, or electrical components don't work, or things of that sort.

By that measure my '82 300SD had terrific quality, but poor reliability. My '85 Monte Carlo had lousy quality, but excellent reliability. Both of my current Hondas have both excellent reliability and excellent quality.

thegraduate · April 2009

It's a listed price for all car models (except full-size trucks) at our dealer (Town and Country in Birmingham). Honda has a one-price fits-all price since the biggest engine is the J35.

iluvmysephia1 · April 2009

V-Dub was rising so fast in the worldwide automotive race. Believe that one when I actually see it. What do they offer for a Warranty, 5 years and 60,000 miles? And dealer experiences can differ from area to area. I don't like their styles enough to seriously consider one, except lately I have become somewhat interested in looking at one of those camper bus VW's, with the huge steering wheel in your lap.

You bunk right above the driver and passenger seat. Also the roof lifts up for an additional bunking-spot, most of y'all have seen the old VW bus layouts. But supposedly they're not hard to work on, and one would have to give anywhere from $5,000 to $12,000 for one that is still running. Never liked 'em before, but they interest me now because they might make a good traveling mode/companion. For midsize rigs I'd look at the Kia Optima, Mitsubishi Galant and Ford Fusion...test drive 'em all and let the chips fall where they may. Ford's new Fusion Hybrid would be worth a longer look, is it eligible for the $7,500 Obama "green" car rebate?

m6user · April 2009

Copied from autoblog.com.

"....Toyota  currently the undisputed leader in automotive sales volume  is expected to post about 1.23 million sales in the first quarter of '09, down an amazing 47% from the previous year. Volkswagen's 1.39 million sales represent a much smaller drop of about 11%."

See it to believe it?

Never liked 'em before, but they interest me now because they might make a good traveling mode/companion

With the way the economy is going we might have to buy them to live in!

igozoomzoom · April 2009

I agree with you on the Fusion, but the Hyundai Sonata would rank higher on my prospect list than the Kia Optima (especially if we're talking about the V6 models). The Galant is a good value, but it's a bit long-in-the-tooth and out-classed by several competitors.

The Fusion and Mazda6 would be at the top of my list, though!

madpistol · April 2009

Yesterday, I got to test drive one of the 2010 Camry LE's, and while it was a welcome improvement over the 2007-2009 model, I still wasn't terribly impressed with it.

First thing you notice about it is that Satellite radio is now standard on LE trims and above. ESC is also now standard across the board. The other improvement is the 2.5L 4-cyl and 6-speed auto. It provides a nice bump in power, but Toyota is still definitely going for refinement > power delivery. It is definitely quicker than the dated 2.4L engine, but the Camry still feels incredibly lethargic under WOT. I expected it to be a tick quicker than it was.

Still, the Camry is once again competitive in the market, provided the price stays the same. There were no squeaks or rattles in the cabin, the ride was velvety smooth, and the engine was refined and quiet. I'm still waiting to test drive an SE model since it's supposed to get a 179HP engine vs. the LE's 169. I'm glad Toyota noticed the holes in their mass production car and fixed them.

The car is most definitely a step in the right direction now, but I believe the 2012 reincarnation of the Camry will address even more issues. Until then, the 2010 Camry is competitive, but not desirable.

stephen987 · April 2009

"....Toyota  currently the undisputed leader in automotive sales volume  is expected to post about 1.23 million sales in the first quarter of '09, down an amazing 47% from the previous year. Volkswagen's 1.39 million sales represent a much smaller drop of about 11%."

But those are global figures. Does anyone have US figures? I would bet that Toyota outsells VW in the US about ten to one.

jeffyscott · April 2009

Another example of the reliability - quality difference might be GM's old V6 engine (3.8L?), I've heard that referred to as "bullet-proof" but I think it is also considered to be "unrefined". So that might be considered to be a reliable engine, but not a high quality engine.

cannon3 · April 2009

I test drove a new 2010 Fusion SEL 2.5 4cyl 6speed automatic. Ford is listening to consumers and it is showing. The new 2.5 4cyl is smooth and responsive. The new dash is leaps and bounds better looking, than in my 06. I like the nice accents that are put in the 06 interior. The days of Toyota/Honda dominating the 4cyl market in mid size sedans is coming to an end.
Also test drove a v6 SE version. The "re tuned" V6 does have more power. But when pushed does growl. I like the sound myself, others may call it "unrefined". Frankly, I really liked the new 2.5 4cyl. When spun up the engine just sounds like it was made for it. Fit/finish of both cars was excellent.
As far as VW. In 06 my choice came down to a Fusion and a Jetta. The interior quality/fit/finish was not any better or worse in the Jetta than in the Fusion. What swayed me was the endless stories of Jetta's in the shop. However, if you now look at the 06 Jetta reliability data it has improved.

stephen987 · April 2009

Yeah, I'd go along with that. Same for the old 3.0 Vulcan V6 from the '90s-vintage Taurus.

aviboy97 · April 2009

The days of Toyota/Honda dominating the 4cyl market in mid size sedans is coming to an end.

I think that is a bit of a stretch. The Accord and Camry are still much stronger sellers then the Altima, and the Fusion lags quite far behind the Altima in sales. While Fusion v2.0 is much improved and is much better then its predesesor, I'm not so sure Ford will dominate this crowded class.

The 2009 Mazda6 uses a lot of the technology found in the 2010 Fusion including the same 2.5L I-4. The Mazda6 sales are off to a very slow start. Partly due to the massive content available and the little steeper price then the Big 3 from Japan. For 2010, Mazda has brought the car more inline to be more competitive. Anyway, my point is there are many very good cars in this class, 2010 Fusion included, but, I do not see Toyota or Honda stumbling anytime soon.

aviboy97 · April 2009

Same for the old 3.0 Vulcan V6 from the '90s-vintage Taurus.

That was the one made by Yamaha, right?

backy · April 2009

No, Yamaha made the engine for the original SHO Taurus. The Vulcan was Ford. (Live long, and prosper.)

thegraduate · April 2009

The Vulcan needs not live long. Bring on the Duratec.

backy · April 2009

Sorry my attempt at humor was lost on you. Anyway, the Vulcan is dead... Jim.

akirby · April 2009

But I heard the Hyundai Genesis may bring the Vulcan back to life........... :P

stephen987 · April 2009

I was going to request that Scotty beam me up, but. . . there is intelligent life here.

m6user · April 2009

But those are global figures

But that's what I was talking about. This IS a forum with readers/contributors from around the world. You are right that Toyota outsells VW in the US substantially but I'm not sure to what power...it could be ten to one like you say

iluvmysephia1 · April 2009

VW sales are so good in the world overall? Is it the look, people view their body designs as appealing? And quality and reliability are up a tad? Apparently this has all slipped past me here in the hicksticks of SE Arizona, imagine all that. :shades:

backy · April 2009

Hyundai's slogan used to be, "Driving is believing." I think that slogan would be appropriate for VW. If you haven't driven them, you don't understand why many people swear by them (maybe at them sometimes...) even though they don't have as good a reliability history as Toyota or Honda. They do have good styling (they even make the Chrysler minivan look pretty decent), but it's more in the driving feel.

lilengineerboy · April 2009

VW sales are so good in the world overall? Is it the look, people view their body designs as appealing? And quality and reliability are up a tad? Apparently this has all slipped past me here in the hicksticks of SE Arizona, imagine all that.

In most of the world, people place a value on driving. Not all the other crap people in the US do instead of driving. For those folks, VWs are very fun to drive. If you want a psuedo-stick slush box cvt deal with boy racer paddles or a 600 watt stereo, those really aren't VW things. In the US, people hate driving. They want as many gismos to help they forget they are driving as possible. This is why Lexus is so popular, and Buicks before that. Americans want to be isolated from the driving experience while most other people embrace it.

This is why VW is a niche market in the US, its why BMW and MBZ only bring over the big expensive cars, why you can't find a Focus without SYNC but its hard to find one with ABS, etc.

stephen987 · April 2009

So you don't think their poor reliability record had anything at all to do with it? I love driving. OTOH I hate waiting for a damn tow truck in the rain.

In most European nations they have much better mass transit, so not everyone has to drive to get where they're going. A mechanical problem is less of an inconvenience under those circumstances.

Also, in the '80s and '90s Japanese manufacturers were limited by the EEC (precursor to the EU) to around 3% of the market. VW benefited enormously from this protectionism. That, at least as much as the alleged European preference for "driving," is the reason that Toyota and Honda do not have the dealer base or the market share in most European nations that they do in the US. It's also the reason that Peugeot, Renault and Fiat survived at all.

deltheking · April 2009

I was reading about the age brackets of folks buying Accord or Camry.Very interesting reads.The Accord age group is 40, the Camry is 50.That`s a decade divide for the 2 best selling family sedans.
It was reported that as folks age,,they tend more towards the Camry whereas the younger generation prefer Accords.The 40`s crowd want performance and handling in exchange for a harsher,rougher ,noisier ride.
The 50`s crowd prefer smooth,quiet rides.
As Toyota was losing market share of younger folks-they invented the Scion to get in the gen-x crowd who would migrate to Toyota and Lexus later.
Also I think the Accord has more squeaks and rattles than the Camry,,not an isolated incident as I drove 2 to 3 of each--maybe they are built that way ,,and the younger crowd don`t seem to mind that!!

Any thoughts!!

lilengineerboy · April 2009

So you don't think their poor reliability record had anything at all to do with it? I love driving. OTOH I hate waiting for a damn tow truck in the rain.

Oh man, the Contour blew a waterpump (common, same fault as the BMW 3-series with the plastic impeller) in a terrible snow storm a few years back (its sole tow truck ride) and when my wife came to get me in the Accord, it blew an oil seal (one of many tow truck rides). Luckily she beat the tow truck there so the flatbed just picked up both of them. That was not a good month for my budget.

I can't remember being stranded by a VW. Actually, ever. I have had to fix things to get them going (the fuse boxes were very poor from the 70s through the 90s and would rust, needing tweaks to get them going again) but things like accessories, power windows (the motors, the switches, etc) were sub-par.

I think people make trade-offs. The difference between best in class and worst in class is statistically significant but not actually significant. If a Toyota needs to go to the dealer once every 5 years, and the VW needs to go every 2 or 3 years, its worth it to me to have a more fun to drive car.

lilengineerboy · April 2009

I was reading about the age brackets of folks buying Accord or Camry.Very interesting reads.The Accord age group is 40, the Camry is 50.That`s a decade divide for the 2 best selling family sedans

Its interesting, the stuff I found had them both pushed back 10 years, where the Accord age group is 50s and the Camry age group is 60s. I always thought that was particularly funny because the "family sedans" were going to empty nesters more than families.

As Toyota was losing market share of younger folks-they invented the Scion to get in the gen-x crowd who would migrate to Toyota and Lexus later.

They invented Scion to bring new folks in. It kind of worked. The mean age of a Scion buyer is still much more Gen W(?) then Gen X or Y, which was the target at the time. I need to find the link but I saw it reported that the age for a Scion buyer is above the age for a Focus buyer.

Also I think the Accord has more squeaks and rattles than the Camry,,not an isolated incident as I drove 2 to 3 of each--maybe they are built that way

Hondas tend to squeak and rattle. Hatchbacks are worse than sedans. Not a super big issue to me.

mz6greyghost · April 2009

...but it's more in the driving feel.

VW ranked tops in driving feel? Not even close. In this class, the Mazda6 still ranks higher in being a "drivers" car over a Passat, and I'll give the Accord, Altima, and even the new Fusion credit over the Passat as well (for now anyway, still waiting to take out the new Fusion Sport to see for myself...)

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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