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2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
As for reliability, the '08 Passat my friend just bought is rated "above average" in reliability by CR. (My Rabbit is also "above average".) The Galant? Not even enough of them sold to be able to rate for reliability. But CR ranks the Eclipse as Average and Outlander as Above Average. I don't see a big difference there.
Anyway, if I were to buy a Mitsubishi (a Galant, for this discussion), then I'd have to drive it every day. :sick:
Actually VW pioneered this approach in Latin America where protectionist policies made it difficult for vehicle importers to gain a foothold. VW's Brazilian arm was established back in the early 1950s. (Of course, we could call it the "Ford route" since Ford established its first UK assembly plant in 1914. . .)
Excellent point. Even if people buy a car knowing it doesn't lead in reliability, they at least expect good customer service when having maintenance and repairs done. My Accord (the 2006) had quite a few quality problems early in life (minor things... loose rear-view mirror glass, stuck fuel flap, CD Changer malfunction), but the fact that I was so well taken care of comfort me for down the road if/when other things crop up.
Wow. I had a lot of repairs both under warranty and out of warranty over the years. The Buick dealer treated me so well and I enjoyed the car so much that it didn't bother me all that much. If I had had a hassle every time I returned to the dealer my whole experience would have been tainted big time.
I was really talking about the personal customer service, though, not the price or actual parts. The local Ford dealer has been good, although with only two services so far, its hard to say how it'll be. We've got high hopes though.
Dodge Avenger
Chrysler Sebring
Mazda6
Hyundai Sonata/Mitsubishi Galant
VW Passat
Nissan Altima
Toyota Camry
Honda Accord
Mercury Milan
Not enough experience with dealer service to rate:
Chevy Malibu, Saturn Aura, Kia Optima, Subaru Legacy, Ford Fusion
If I were rating the cars based on the cars vs. dealership service, the list would look much, much different.
But... neither car is a mid-sized sedan. So...
Not the same situation as Ford.
People want a combination of style, interior quality, refinement, performance, and reliability, economy, cost. They will sacrifice factors for others.
VW's strong points are style, interior quality, refinement, and performance to a lesser degree. They are relatively poor on reliability, lousy on customer service, and fairly high cost.
Ford has typically been low style, low interior quality, moderate refinement, low to moderate performance, decent reliability, and good cost. Their reliability has been improving and now so is their performance.
If you want low performance and style but high reliability and refinement you buy a Toyota.
:P
I didn't find the reliability of the '93 Accord to be particularly stellar, so far the '07 has just had silly issues but nothing major. I don't plan on having it nearly as long as the other Accord (in fact, I am surprised I still have it now!), so I am not as worried about long term reliability as I am about resale, which was black booked at 13k for a car that MSRPd at 23.5k in '07. I consider that to be less than stellar. Had I paid full pop, I would've been really ticked.
I'm not sure how your local dealers charge for the amount of oil they have to add back after the drain, but it's not uncommon around here for an oil change on a larger engine to cost more than one on a smaller engine. Your parent's V6 probably holds at least a quart more oil than your Accord. Oil is about $2 a quart right now so that might explain the price difference you are seeing. Those dealer advertised prices typically state "up to 4 quarts" and the D35 in the Taurus holds 5.5 quarts. YMMV of course.
Yeah, I think its interesting with this "new Ford" emerging, the newer stuff (Fusion, Focus, MKS, etc) is proving to be more reliable, and the old stuff is fading away. Most of the complaints I hear now are from vehicles made in the 90s.
I will say that my nephew is a VW technician at a dealership and he recommended I buy a Mazda6 over a VW Jetta. I bought the Mazda6 and have had absolutely no problems in 28,000 miles.
Ford has typically been low style, low interior quality, moderate refinement, low to moderate performance, decent reliability, and good cost. Their reliability has been improving and now so is their performance.
If you want low performance and style but high reliability and refinement you buy a Toyota.
******
VWs are fine if you don't get a turbo-equipped model. The rest of the reliability issues are pretty much the same as all of the German industry. Their suppliers for electrical and mechanical sub-systems(knobs/switches/sensors/etc) are barely D grade rubbish. Toyota, OTOH, has top marks here. The cars are utter toads but the interior and accessory parts just don't break and the stuff keeps working year after year. So if you *do* buy a vehicle form a German company, get it with literally as little electronics and accessories as humanly possible.
Both Toyota and VW have lousy transmission parts suppliers, though. GM is the only make I'd trust an automatic in. But that said, the VW, Honda, Toyota, and Mazda/Ford manuals are very very good - far far better than anything GM makes.
I'm soon to be looking for a newer vehicle myself. A lot of small European cars are on the list. 4 cylinder, no turbo, and manual, of course.
If (to steal a phrase) "quality is job 1", quality engineering, parts and construction go in, a reliable car should come out IMO. However, I also realize that quality/reliablity can be measured in so many ways and by so many agencies that it is hard to put your money on any one of them to make an argument.
By that measure my '82 300SD had terrific quality, but poor reliability. My '85 Monte Carlo had lousy quality, but excellent reliability. Both of my current Hondas have both excellent reliability and excellent quality.
You bunk right above the driver and passenger seat. Also the roof lifts up for an additional bunking-spot, most of y'all have seen the old VW bus layouts. But supposedly they're not hard to work on, and one would have to give anywhere from $5,000 to $12,000 for one that is still running. Never liked 'em before, but they interest me now because they might make a good traveling mode/companion. For midsize rigs I'd look at the Kia Optima, Mitsubishi Galant and Ford Fusion...test drive 'em all and let the chips fall where they may. Ford's new Fusion Hybrid would be worth a longer look, is it eligible for the $7,500 Obama "green" car rebate?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
"....Toyota – currently the undisputed leader in automotive sales volume – is expected to post about 1.23 million sales in the first quarter of '09, down an amazing 47% from the previous year. Volkswagen's 1.39 million sales represent a much smaller drop of about 11%."
See it to believe it?
Never liked 'em before, but they interest me now because they might make a good traveling mode/companion
With the way the economy is going we might have to buy them to live in!
The Fusion and Mazda6 would be at the top of my list, though!
First thing you notice about it is that Satellite radio is now standard on LE trims and above. ESC is also now standard across the board. The other improvement is the 2.5L 4-cyl and 6-speed auto. It provides a nice bump in power, but Toyota is still definitely going for refinement > power delivery. It is definitely quicker than the dated 2.4L engine, but the Camry still feels incredibly lethargic under WOT. I expected it to be a tick quicker than it was.
Still, the Camry is once again competitive in the market, provided the price stays the same. There were no squeaks or rattles in the cabin, the ride was velvety smooth, and the engine was refined and quiet. I'm still waiting to test drive an SE model since it's supposed to get a 179HP engine vs. the LE's 169. I'm glad Toyota noticed the holes in their mass production car and fixed them.
The car is most definitely a step in the right direction now, but I believe the 2012 reincarnation of the Camry will address even more issues. Until then, the 2010 Camry is competitive, but not desirable.
But those are global figures. Does anyone have US figures? I would bet that Toyota outsells VW in the US about ten to one.
Also test drove a v6 SE version. The "re tuned" V6 does have more power. But when pushed does growl. I like the sound myself, others may call it "unrefined". Frankly, I really liked the new 2.5 4cyl. When spun up the engine just sounds like it was made for it. Fit/finish of both cars was excellent.
As far as VW. In 06 my choice came down to a Fusion and a Jetta. The interior quality/fit/finish was not any better or worse in the Jetta than in the Fusion. What swayed me was the endless stories of Jetta's in the shop. However, if you now look at the 06 Jetta reliability data it has improved.
I think that is a bit of a stretch. The Accord and Camry are still much stronger sellers then the Altima, and the Fusion lags quite far behind the Altima in sales. While Fusion v2.0 is much improved and is much better then its predesesor, I'm not so sure Ford will dominate this crowded class.
The 2009 Mazda6 uses a lot of the technology found in the 2010 Fusion including the same 2.5L I-4. The Mazda6 sales are off to a very slow start. Partly due to the massive content available and the little steeper price then the Big 3 from Japan. For 2010, Mazda has brought the car more inline to be more competitive. Anyway, my point is there are many very good cars in this class, 2010 Fusion included, but, I do not see Toyota or Honda stumbling anytime soon.
That was the one made by Yamaha, right?
But that's what I was talking about. This IS a forum with readers/contributors from around the world. You are right that Toyota outsells VW in the US substantially but I'm not sure to what power...it could be ten to one like you say
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
In most of the world, people place a value on driving. Not all the other crap people in the US do instead of driving. For those folks, VWs are very fun to drive. If you want a psuedo-stick slush box cvt deal with boy racer paddles or a 600 watt stereo, those really aren't VW things. In the US, people hate driving. They want as many gismos to help they forget they are driving as possible. This is why Lexus is so popular, and Buicks before that. Americans want to be isolated from the driving experience while most other people embrace it.
This is why VW is a niche market in the US, its why BMW and MBZ only bring over the big expensive cars, why you can't find a Focus without SYNC but its hard to find one with ABS, etc.
In most European nations they have much better mass transit, so not everyone has to drive to get where they're going. A mechanical problem is less of an inconvenience under those circumstances.
Also, in the '80s and '90s Japanese manufacturers were limited by the EEC (precursor to the EU) to around 3% of the market. VW benefited enormously from this protectionism. That, at least as much as the alleged European preference for "driving," is the reason that Toyota and Honda do not have the dealer base or the market share in most European nations that they do in the US. It's also the reason that Peugeot, Renault and Fiat survived at all.
It was reported that as folks age,,they tend more towards the Camry whereas the younger generation prefer Accords.The 40`s crowd want performance and handling in exchange for a harsher,rougher ,noisier ride.
The 50`s crowd prefer smooth,quiet rides.
As Toyota was losing market share of younger folks-they invented the Scion to get in the gen-x crowd who would migrate to Toyota and Lexus later.
Also I think the Accord has more squeaks and rattles than the Camry,,not an isolated incident as I drove 2 to 3 of each--maybe they are built that way ,,and the younger crowd don`t seem to mind that!!
Any thoughts!!
Oh man, the Contour blew a waterpump (common, same fault as the BMW 3-series with the plastic impeller) in a terrible snow storm a few years back (its sole tow truck ride) and when my wife came to get me in the Accord, it blew an oil seal (one of many tow truck rides). Luckily she beat the tow truck there so the flatbed just picked up both of them. That was not a good month for my budget.
I can't remember being stranded by a VW. Actually, ever. I have had to fix things to get them going (the fuse boxes were very poor from the 70s through the 90s and would rust, needing tweaks to get them going again) but things like accessories, power windows (the motors, the switches, etc) were sub-par.
I think people make trade-offs. The difference between best in class and worst in class is statistically significant but not actually significant. If a Toyota needs to go to the dealer once every 5 years, and the VW needs to go every 2 or 3 years, its worth it to me to have a more fun to drive car.
Its interesting, the stuff I found had them both pushed back 10 years, where the Accord age group is 50s and the Camry age group is 60s. I always thought that was particularly funny because the "family sedans" were going to empty nesters more than families.
As Toyota was losing market share of younger folks-they invented the Scion to get in the gen-x crowd who would migrate to Toyota and Lexus later.
They invented Scion to bring new folks in. It kind of worked. The mean age of a Scion buyer is still much more Gen W(?) then Gen X or Y, which was the target at the time. I need to find the link but I saw it reported that the age for a Scion buyer is above the age for a Focus buyer.
Also I think the Accord has more squeaks and rattles than the Camry,,not an isolated incident as I drove 2 to 3 of each--maybe they are built that way
Hondas tend to squeak and rattle. Hatchbacks are worse than sedans. Not a super big issue to me.
VW ranked tops in driving feel? Not even close. In this class, the Mazda6 still ranks higher in being a "drivers" car over a Passat, and I'll give the Accord, Altima, and even the new Fusion credit over the Passat as well (for now anyway, still waiting to take out the new Fusion Sport to see for myself...)