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Comments
Be thankful. VW has stranded me five different times with two different cars (both late-'90s Golf TDIs, I might add).
The accessories were worse than sub-par IMO. In fact, I'd throw in the ENTIRE electrical system, which DID have an effect on being stranded. I had to deal with headlights shorting out constantly, brake lights eating bulbs like a snack, blown fuses with everything, a faulty (and frustrating) keyless entry system that when it actually functioned at all, it either locked out the driver/passengers or tripped the alarm for no reason. The list goes on...
I think people make trade-offs. The difference between best in class and worst in class is statistically significant but not actually significant. If a Toyota needs to go to the dealer once every 5 years, and the VW needs to go every 2 or 3 years, its worth it to me to have a more fun to drive car.
Considering most Accord owners also can go 5 years without seeing a dealer, while having just as much fun behind the wheel... Not to mention my '04 6, which has seen the dealer ONCE (for a CEL due to a faulty gas cap) in 78K miles, while having a BETTER driving experience...
The only trade-off I made when getting my Mazda over a VW is the close, personal relationship I'd form with the VW Service Manager, helping him put his/her kids through college and buying his/her 24' yacht.
http://www.swivel.com/data_sets/spreadsheet/1002413
Adding up Toyota, Lexus and Scion have 2.54 million sales in 2006. VW, Audi, and Bently total about 329,000. So almost 8 to 1.
It is strange that VW has such a limited share in the US compared to the rest of the world (eg. nearly 20% in europe). I don't think it can just be ascribed to the driving experience. VW was biggest seller in China, not sure if it still is, and I don't get the impression that the chinese are big on the driving experience. One Chinese co-worker does not even drive when "test driving", he has the salesman drive so he can concentrate on things like how the ride feels (or more likely does not feel ).
I think some of the low reliability in the US is due to the demographics of the buyers here. The average VW buyer in the US is much younger than the average Toyota buyer. Another factor is poor maintenance practices, such as putting the wrong oil in the engines (especially turbos). I don't think VW has a poor reliability reputation in europe, it'd be surprising if they could maintain 20% of the market if they did. I wonder what the european opinion is of Honda and Toyota (they must have a much smaller market share there than in the US).
One other thing is that VW has some lower priced makes and models in europe, compared to here. Under the VW nameplate they have the Polo and Fox, some of their other makes may target the lower price range also.
Considering most Accord owners also can go 5 years without seeing a dealer, while having just as much fun behind the wheel... Not to mention my '04 6, which has seen the dealer ONCE (for a CEL due to a faulty gas cap) in 78K miles, while having a BETTER driving experience...
A contemporary Honda Accord (203+) is not as fun to drive as a 2000+ Jetta or Passat. I would say the 90s was a low point for VW (like 1993-1998 or so) but the '98 Passat and the roll out of the 1.8t was a pretty sweet ride.
I really like the Mazda6. I am working on acquiring one to replace the '07 Accord now.
Actually I didn't say VW (specifically the Passat, for this discussion) is "ranked tops in driving feel." But others have...
"If you're seeking a four-cylinder, four-door "driver's car," look no further" [than the Passat] - Motor Trend
C/D hasn't done a comparo of mid-sizers with the Passat, but the latest comparo they did of small cars put VW (Rabbit) on top, largely because it was tops in "fun to drive."
But then I would expect someone with a handle of "mz6..." to rate the Mazda6 tops in class as a driver's car.
The Altima starts at $19,900; the Camry also in the 19s, and Accord starts out at a thousand more than the Altima, at $20,905.
Since the Jetta plays in the compact class, I won't go down that road for the sake of discussion. Couldn't help but comment though. Backy, I know what you meant by "same ballpark" pricing, but let's face it, the majority of drivers aren't buying the top of the line models, which is exactly where Volkswagen competes.
It seems like VW doesn't know what they want their American lineup to be. Mainstream? No way, they're too expensive for that. Luxury? There's no Vee-Dub in the lineup that can compare favorably to anything that Benz or Bimmer have to offer, unless you use the price differential comparison, in which case we're back at square one. Maybe they're trying to be the Saab/Acura/Volvo of the world; not in the big-leagues, but not catering to the budget buyer. The question is, does anyone see VW as that premium marque?
#1. We(I say we even though I have a Mazda6 and like the sportiness but can still appreciate the Camry type ride) Americans grew up on Detroit iron....need I say more.
#2. The few "European" cars we were exposed to early on were mostly British roadsters and German VWs both of which at the time were far less reliable than American made cars and the VWs were hardly thought of as sporty with their 40+ HP and light front ends..
#3. The first Japanese cars were like most other things made in Japan at the time and that was tinny and cheaply made. The first few years of the Honda were almost as bad as the first Hyundais.
#4. Our long, straight wide open roads and highways laid out in mostly grid systems didn't require cars that can turn and stop on a dime.
#5. We don't have good public transport here. Not saying it's a good thing just the way it is. So driving is a necessity, not a pleasure trip in most cases.
#6. The Madison Avenue agencies drilled into us a sense of bigger and quieter was better. However, this could beg the statement of "which came first, the chicken or the egg"
There are most undoubtedly more reasons but I think it is unfair to expect anything other than the current American expectations due to history. If you've driven much in Europe (Italy and Greece come to mind especially) you can really understand why a small, very maneuverable car is prized due to the small narrow roads/streets, sharp turns and just the way they drive.
Compared to the average European we rack up a tremendous number of miles and most of us like something we can be comfortable in for a long drive.
I see nothing wrong with people wanting a Camry ride if that is their preference and I won't insinuate that they are automatically poor drivers any more than I would that Beemer owners are necessarily good drivers.
But when you compare what you get with a $28k Passat, performance-wise and content-wise, it is pretty close to if not superior in some ways to the likes of the Accord and Camry V6s. Please don't try to compare the Passat to those $20k Accords and Camrys. There is no comparison. And the Passat has that German "cachet." Some folks will pay more for that (see BMW and Mercedes). Personally, I won't pay more for a car just because it's a German marque, but I can see why people love the way the Passat and other VWs feel and drive vs. the same-old/same-old offerings from Japan and the U.S. Ja, ja, ve have der different shtrokes for different volks, er, folks.
That's just it though, I'm thinking a lot of people will look at the price difference (the Passat costs roughly 40-50% more) and write off VW right there. You're right, there is no comparison... yet we compare in this discussion.
And it's NOT 40-50% more, for a comparably-equipped car. Price out an Accord EX AT compared to the Passat. Not nearly 40-50% price difference.
I am for fun looking at a late 60's early 70's VW Camper Bus as a travel idea for later(maybe to go with work, not necessarily a retirement idea). I was reading I believe Automobile magazine a few months ago and the author of this one article on the old Bus' really treated them right in the article. I will look casually at the idea as time moves along.
I learned how to drive a stick on my Dad's baby blue '66 VW Fastback with I believe a 4-speed stick. The car was a joy to drive, so I have mostly good memories of VW's in general. I wouldn't poo-poo the idea of some sort of VW purchase one day, but it's not real likely, either.
One question about the '09 Mazda6. Is the new engineering worth a starting price of around $28,000? Seems just a titch high. Reviews I've read have been pretty favorable for the new 6.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
The '09 Mazda6 doesn't start at $28k, more like $20k. But it goes up over $30k with the V6 and options.
...But then I would expect someone with a handle of "mz6..." to rate the Mazda6 tops in class as a driver's car.
Rather than rely on the "opinion" of a magazine journalist, I'd rather take them out and drive them myself to get MY opinions about a good "drivers" car. I've driven just about all the cars listed in one form or another on the right (except for the 2010 models), and I stand behind my evaluation of the Passat compared to the others in this class.
And as "biased" as you think I am ( ), I simply bought that I thought was the best-handling "drivers" car in this class in 2004, while being comfortable, relatively reliable, and reasonably priced. If the new Legacy and/or Fusion is a bigger standout than the current 6 when I purchase new next year, then I won't hesitate to get either one of them.
But for $28K, a V6 should be under the hood. And yes, I've driven the 2.0T, and despite the 200 HP, it still feels/sounds/runs like a 4-cylinder. It's a good one, but not $28K worth...
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
What does an Altima list for that is more comparable to a Passat? For example, include a powertrain that matches the performance of the Passat's, and include comparable safety features including ESC, traction control--maybe even eight airbags (optional on the Passat, so increase the price accordingly).
But for $28K, a V6 should be under the hood.
FYI the Mazda6i (I4) Grand Touring with moonroof and Sirius (standard on the Passat) lists for over $28k. For shame, for shame!
Let's see what each mfgr give you for $28,000....
Passat advantages over Mazda6:
more powerful 200hp/207lb-ft 2.0T engine
Daytime running lights
side view mirror turn signals
heated windshield washer nozzles
12-way power driver seat
no charge schedule maintenance 3yr/36K miles
Mazda6 advantages over Passat:
Better fuel economy (21/30 AT)
Xenon headlights
Dual climate control
Bluetooth phone + audio
power passenger seat
Blind Spot Monitoring System
333 watt Bose Audio System
rain sensing windshield wipers
auto on-off head lights
drivers seat memory
auto-dimming rear view mirror w/ Homelink
genuine leather seats
Advanced keyless entry & start system (push button)
anti theft security system
From this list, I think Mazda gives you more for $28,000 then VW does....
I don't disagree with that. That's why I posted that a V6 "should" be under the hood for $28K. Trust me, I'm not settling to buy ANY 4-cylinder midsize sedan for that price.
Good point....
VW just does not offer a mid sized sedan in the price range of the lower model Accord/Camry/Altima/Mazda6/Sonata to be competitive. That is why VW announced a $20K mid sized sedan due here by 2012.
As nice as the Passat is, it is marketed poorly. Most mid-sized sedans sold are in the lower $20K range. Not $28,000+....
* Passat has a 6AT (with wheel-mounted shift control) vs. 5AT on the Mazda6i
* Passat has remote sunroof controls and remote window operation
* Passat does have anti-theft alarm standard
* Passat has not only auto on/off headlamps, but dusk-sensing
* Passat has a ski pass-through in back (does the Mazda6?)
* Passat has a 12-year corrosion warranty, unlimited mileage
* Passat has a full-sized spare tire
* Passat has side and rear sunshades
* Passat has automatic disc brake wiper/cleaner function
* Passat has rear side airbags available
* Passat has hill-holder function
I may have missed some things.
It would almost make more sense for VW to position the Passat against the Acura TSX or Lexus IS instead. But buyers of those brands tend to think "Audi" rather than "VW."
I would love for VW to bring over the Skoda Octavia and Superb as a way of "bracketing" the US midsize market--Octavia could compete directly with the Fusion et al at the lower end, while Superb would be an almost-full-size car (a la Taurus or LaCrosse). In Europe these cars are highly regarded.
I see no mention of "auto on-off headlight feature" on the Passat. This from VW..."Daytime Running Lights (DRL); upon start-up of vehicle, headlights engage with reduced power; instrument panel lighting, parking lights and tail lights remain off; to engage all lights with full power, the light switch must be turned to the on position "
The Mazda6 also has remote window and sunroof operation.
I did not see anti-theft alarm in the spec sheet at vw.com, but, now I do
Ski pass??? The Mazda6 has a 60/40 split folding seat.I'm sure the 40% part can be used as a ski pass through....call it even.
Rear side airbags are an OPTION, not standard as was the subject of my post.
I'll give you the hill hold, spare tire (which is rarely, if ever used BTW) and better corrosion warranty. I have no idea wha the brake cleaner does. I have never had an issue with "dirty" brakes.
I still think the Mazda offers more. Splitting hairs? Yes. But, the issue is that VW does not offer a mid-sized sedan for anything less then $28,000 is a problem.
Passat 4cyl. not a problem for the 3yrs. I lease. Agree a 6cyl. would be way preferable for longer term use. 4 3yr. leases of 4cyl. Passats completed, and every one of them was noisier going around the hills of cincinnati than the first year of ownership. Just have to think the turbos are loosing up way before 50k and will have issues (expensive) soon after 100k (if not before).
BTW, one reason many folks like a full-sized spare tire is that it increases your tire life by 20% when you put it into the rotation mix.
A couple days before Christmas '08, the pull cord on my snow blower broke. With the 60/40 folding seats in my '05 Sonata I was able to load it into the trunk to get to the power equipment dealer (they close from Christmas Eve until after New Years day). Obviously, I wasn't carrying 2 or 3 passengers. However, a ski pass through without folding seats would have left me up the creek.
The 2009 Mazda6 has a trip computer standard on all "i Touring" models on up.
FYI, the Passat has the ski pass-through PLUS the 60/40 folding rear seat.
yeah, the car buyers have already showed us what they think of VW as a 'premium' brand - they called it the Phaeton. Regardless of how good the Passat might be, it couldn't succeed in the $40k+ neighborhood that you are talkiing about, as least not as a VW. Heck it is VW's tarnished reputation as well as its high relative price that make it a minor player in this group.
I'm willing to bet that the Passat is shopped against the Audi A4, TSX, IS250, BMW 328 etc....I see the CX-9 shopped against the MDX, RX350 and Volvo XC-90. Not exactly the same class, but, it happens a lot.
I'm willing to bet that the Passat is shopped against the Audi A4, TSX, IS250, BMW 328 etc...
Exactly. And at the other end of the midsize spectrum, inexpensive sedans like the Fusion are probably cross-shopped against the Elantra and Civic, as out-the-door prices are pretty darn close. That's the pesky thing about "midsize (or midmarket) sedans."
I think if the non-luxury model approaches the luxury model in price unless someone is really "payment constrained" it's kind of no brainer to jump up in class.
Same with the Fusion or Milan and the MKZ. If a optioned up Fulan is within a few grand of a MKZ, I would buy the MKZ. Keep in mind I'm talking market price and not MSRP.
The Passat is priced a little high for what it has, but, the main beef with it is that VW does not offer a lesser Passat to compete with everyone else in the mid-sized class.
As for the CX-9, it's priced really really good. It's far cheaper then an MDX, Q7, RX350, GMC Acadia. It's on par with the Pilot and Highlander.
Might just have to put this midsize Ford on my futures list with the three all-electric powertrain cars I'm tracking like a Seahawk. 81.5 miles per gallon. Ford said that we should expect smiles per gallon of what, 43 for this hybrid?
http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1020291_fusion-hybrid-finally-runs-out-of-ga- - - - s-1445-7-miles-on-single-tank-81-5-mpg
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
This is definitely the wrong thread to be talking about this, however, the CX-9 AWD starts at $32,000 and a GT w/ nav is around $40,000. MDX starts at $40,000 and MDX w/ tech is $45,800. I have a pre-owned MDX with tech on my lot, and I must say, I don't see how it is worth nearly $6,000 more. Plus, Mazda has killer incentives on the CX-9 right now with rebates totaling near $4,000.
If you want to continue this discussion, I can meet you in the crossover comparison thread.
$5000 would represent more than 30% of the total price that I paid for my midsize car. This is a huge difference.
In any case, I have no interest in "luxury" vehicles and they often come with things I hate, such as leather, wood and chrome.