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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • maxamillion85maxamillion85 Member Posts: 78
    I guess with that slippery slope of a roof line you'd have a point...BUT it would seem like VW could have designed the sunroof to be the "spoiler" type. Like the Malibu and Aura have...where the entire sunroof opens and rest on top of the roof line. In the Aura and Malibu that type of sunroof doesn't eat into the headroom.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    what i meant was the lesser weight of a 4cyl/manual is better.
    v6/autos in the same vehicle weigh more up front and are more likely to have torque steer. many fwd auto's have torque management to help out with those issues.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    yesterday morning, i took the explorer up to worcester to see the new england high school rowing finals. 80 miles one way.
    had to drive back to farmington to pick up my next door neighbor to go to the red sox game. we took the fusion to the riverside 'T' stop, so the trip was about 30 miles further in each direction.
    my friend who drives a saab and a bmw 3 series, at one point remarked, this car is really smooth.
    later he said this car is really comfortable and i have plenty of head and leg room.
    he even offered to drive.
    the reason i drove was that he hurt his left knee, and both his cars are sticks.
    i have to admit as much as i like my explorer, the fusion was an easier drive, although i wish the steering had a little more weight to it.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Fusion - 19,786
    Milan - 2,929

    Combined - 22,715

    Accord - 22,597
    Camry - 31,325
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    New hybrid model generated a lot of positive press and Ford viewed favorably due to no bailout money request have aided sales of these two greatly. Still very impressive results.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Fulan outselling the Accord! Whoudathunk.

    I wonder how many of those Fulans were 2009s with closeout pricing, vs. the 2010s.

    Prices are getting pretty aggressive on Camrys also. A couple of local dealers are advertising 2009 LEs at just over $18k--pretty low advertised price for a Camry. My local Honda dealers never advertise prices (just lease deals), so I can't compare directly to what is being offered on Camrys and Fulans. Closeout prices on 2009 Fusions start at under $14k though. Those must be getting thin on the lots by now.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    They moved a lot of 2009 Fulans in April but I'm sure there were some left in May.

    However Ford also announced that their incentive spending for May was actually LESS than April while sales increased 20% month to month.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    i didn't look too closely, but i saw an ad for a camry with 0% financing for 5 years.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • vanman1vanman1 Member Posts: 1,397
    Chevy is now advertising 0% for 60 on 2009 Malibu. Saw an ad on NBC a couple of days ago.
  • cannon3cannon3 Member Posts: 296
    increasing production in North American plants!! Yeah more Americans returing to work! Ford does not have the capacity Honda has to make Fulans. I believe the Hermisillo plant can only produce about 300,000 Fusion/Milan/MKZ total. I predict Fusions will be made in the U.S. or Canada in the next 2-3 years at a re-tooled plant.
    Motor Trend had the Accord besting the Fusion. However if you read the article it was purely based on the projected resale value?? Even though the Fusion costs less upfront?? I also like the comment on the .3 second advantage the Accord holds. They had to redline the Accord in order to achieve the .3 second advantage over an automatic Fusion!! ;) Looks like Ford had got it right and buyers are taking notice.
    I also saw a blurb on the net from an auto analyst that it may not be out of reach that Ford could move into the number 1 spot for domestic auto sales in the next 5 years! With the new product like the Fusion/Milan/MKZ/Focus/Fiesta and new Taurus in the gates.
    Ford is retooling a plant for the new Focus and will hire up to 2,000 Americans. Good press.
  • igozoomzoomigozoomzoom Member Posts: 801
    The Motor Trend test was very close. The cars are so closely matched in most areas that it comes down to personal preferences and the the question of resale value.

    According to Edmunds TCO (True Cost To Own) the Fusion SEL's Cost Per Mile is $0.51. The Accord EX-L's Cost Per Mile is $0.48. Variance in projected depreciation is why those numbers are identical. The Accord EX-L is projected to be worth 54% of its original value at 5-years vs. the Fusion SEL I4, which is projected to be worth 45% of its original value.

    The Fusion is projected to depreciate 23% in the first year. The Accord's first year depreciation is only 11%. The safest bet, if you plan to trade in a year or two, will be the Accord. If you plan to drive the car for beyond 5-years, the differences in residual value become a moot point.

    One of the few complaints I have about the 2010 Fusion, like the guys at MT, is the auto shifter. Not the transmission itself, but the lack of manual driver control. I'm not a fan of the trendy 'manu-matic' shifters with a separate manual gate for up/down shift. The Honda shifter has four gear selections- D, D3, 2 and 1. This allows the driver to hold the car in 3rd, 2nd or 1st when needed (engine braking, handy when driving down steep gradesm, etc). Another useful feature- if the gear shift lever is in the '2' position, the car will start out in 2nd gear (useful in slippery conditions to avoid wheelspin).

    The Fusion simply has D and L. What exactly is 'L' and which of the 5 lower gears does it select??? Thankfully, V6 Fusions have a manual shift gate for 2010.

    While the Fusion's shifter irks me, the Accord isn't flawless. I've owned Hondas for 17 of the last 20 years and the '08 Accord center control panel is the antithesis of Honda's legendary ergononic, intuitive interior design! :confuse: It's a deal breaker for me! The Fusion interior is much easier to live with (and to look at).

    The Fusion also has a few items on the options list that the Accord can't match. For example, the SEL offers the phenomenal 390-watt 12-speaker Sony Sound System. The EX-L has a lesser 270-watt 7-speaker setup (and regular EX models only have a 160-watt 6-speaker).

    The SEL also has the option of 18" Alloy Wheels (both cars have 17" standard). As with the stereo, it's nice to have a choice here. FYI- these are the same sharp 18" alloys used on the '09 Fusion Sport Appearance Package and Blue Suede Package.
    2015.5 Volvo S60 T6 Drive-E Platinum, 2012 Mazda CX-9 GT
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    Your comment on the Honda center console reminded me of my #1 complaint on my 09 TCH, the center console, what the hell were they thinking lighting this whole thing up at night? Worse yet, you cant dim it without dimming the entire dash. A few times I had to turn the entire dash off so I could see where I was going when it was very dark and foggy.

    I have seen the 2010 Fusion, and the first thing I noticed, the dash did not have anything that would be a distraction on a dark stormy night. Personally I wish the 2010 had come out last year when I got my Camry Hybrid, I find it much more comfortable to sit in and ergonomically much nicer than the Camry.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The Fusion simply has D and L. What exactly is 'L' and which of the 5 lower gears does it select???

    It's still an automatic mode, but it holds the RPM around 4,000 thereby providing engine braking. It will upshift from 1st or 2nd gear if necessary but will maintain high RPM. In the Edge and MKX there are some additional features with an Overdrive lockout switch in addition to the L position - not sure if that made it to the 2010s.

    I had heard Ford went to the D-L setup for the CVT transmission which was subsequently cancelled. I've never had to take my 06 Fusion out of D anyway although I would prefer to have more direct control available. My previous car was a 2000 Lincoln LS which was the first use of SelectShift in a F/L/M product and having that direct control over the gear selection is great, whether you're using it for sporty driving in the twisties or for starting out in 2nd or 3rd gear or forcing a downshift for passing early, etc. It's not a replacement for a manual but it is certainly the most control over an automatic.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    In the Edge and MKX there are some additional features with an Overdrive lockout switch in addition to the L position - not sure if that made it to the 2010s.


    FWIW our new Flex has those additional features. Basically you get two levels of hill descent control when you hit the O/D button on the shifter. You get a less aggressive mode in "D" and a more aggressive mode in "L". I've used it twice on dry roads while going down a couple of long, winding, and very steep roads. It worked pretty well for the most part once I figured out how to work it. You still have to keep your speed down for it to shift to a lower gear and apply the engine braking. Having gear options is still the best way to go, whether with a manumatic or the actual gears, but this should work for most folks too.

    I don't know if the Fusion got this either but you can get the SelectShift in the Sport model.
  • cannon3cannon3 Member Posts: 296
    A dual in the coming years between Ford and Honda for the top family sedan? Who would have even imagined Ford in the same sentence as Honda just 5 years ago when it came to family sedans. Who will come out with the next surprise? Hyundai? Mazda? I read very good things about the new Mazda 6. Can it claim a top 3 spot? Or... are the sales numbers going to flatten for Toyota/Honda and just be spread across the market to other manufacturers? There are some great sedans out there right now. Altima, 6, Malibu, even Subaru is coming out with a larger Legacy to compete. Wish I were in the market to buy.. Like a kid in a candy store.. :)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Who will come out with the next surprise? Hyundai? Mazda?

    Well, it won't be Mazda. The 6 was brand new for 2009, so it will be a long time before we see a new design. And the Mazda6 simply won't be able to reach the sales volumes of the Accord or Fulan. The Sonata, OTOH, is being redesigned for the 2011 MY, due out here next year. We already know it will be more of a coupe-ish style ala the CC and will offer a hybrid version. Next out of the gates, though, will be the new, larger Legacy. But Subaru won't be able to compete in volume with the likes of Honda or Toyota either. Then there's the U.S.-built replacement for the Passat coming on the heels of the Legacy and Sonata.

    One new mid-sizer you forgot is the all-new Suzuki sedan, due in a year or two, which appears to be their first serious entry in this class.

    Yes, lots of great choices in this class, with "more to come" as they say on The Tonight Show.
  • bwiabwia Member Posts: 2,913
    I saw this claim on a Hyundai dealer's website and I am wondering how can they afford to do this?

    "We are one of New Englands Largest Hyundai Dealership and have the best selection available! The hardest part here won't be finding a car, it will be narrowing it down to just one!

    All of our clients who purchase new vehicles get a Free 20 year Powertrain Warranty, Free Loaner Vehicles with Service, as well as Free Inspection Stickers for LIFE!

    We understand you can buy your New Hyundai from anyone, but we want to seperate ourselves and give you FIRST class service and FIRST class satisfaction."
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    Many dealers give you a loaner while your car is being serviced.Hyundai already has a 100,000 mile ten year warranty on the power train. How many people actually keep their car for 20 years anyway?It's a clever sales ploy,but not completely out of the realm of reality.
    How about that lifetime power train warranty that Chrysler has? make twenty years seem short.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    They are saving money by not spell checking their ads :D ("seperate")

    Of course it is not really free, it is just rolled into the price of the vehicles...if they were not giving this stuff away, they would be able to charge less for the cars they sell. Also the free loaner will lead to increased business for their service department.

    A dealer in my area offers a free used car with every new vehicle purchase. Of course, I don't believe the used vehicle is really free.
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    Who would know reliability and cost of repair better than a dealership? Since they service the cars they sell, they would know what the costs to them would be in the long run based on their current repair records, so that is how they can do it, plus based on the fact most people get rid of the car with 5 years, and less than 100K.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Considering Hyundai has only been selling cars in the U.S. for 23 years, I doubt they have much repair history on 10-20 yr old vehicles. Certainly nothing that would apply to the current vehicles. This offer is based on the unlikelihood that an original owner would keep the car past the factory warranty period.

    My guess is you could buy such an extended warranty (with the same restrictions) for a few hundred dollars, so the dealer just takes that out of their normal discount. Same with "lifetime" warranties.
  • bwiabwia Member Posts: 2,913
    In Massachusetts an inspection sticker is $29 per year and the average daily rental is $44.95. If we figure a minimum of two service calls per year that adds up to $120 per year...Good marketing but that's a big hit on the bottom line.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Depends on the definition of "Service" - that may only be for warranty repairs.

    If the average buyer only keeps their vehicle for 5 or 6 years then it's really a moot point. They just build the average extra cost into the prices.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Just because $45 is the average rental charge to a retail customer, does not mean that this is the actual cost to the dealer of providing a loaner from their existing stock of used cars. Instead the cost to the dealer is probably comparable to the cost of a test drive or two.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    They probably figure if you come in for an inspection sticker, you'll have other service done, or it's an opportunity to sell additional services.
  • i360i360 Member Posts: 74
    Down here in Florida we have a local Honda dealership that offers a lifetime power train warranty on cars bought from them. Their bets are hedged through the reliability of the Honda engine and the fact that almost no one will keep the car that long.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    There was a Hyundai dealership near me in CT (they recently moved a few miles further away) which used to advertise free tire replacement, lifetime engine warranty and (I think) free battery replacement.

    Sounds good...BUT all service work had to be done at their dealership, otherwise the "goodies" were void. And their service requirements were more demanding than that of Hyundai. Every 3,000 miles you had to change your oil with them (maybe they'd make an exception for a long road trip vacation-like CT to FL). Their service packages A,B,C,D & E (mileage dependent) could get pretty pricey.

    Plus, they were high priced for buying a new car. In April, '05 the best they could do was split the difference of MSRP & invoice for $550 off MSRP on the Sonata. The $1500 (at the time) rebate would also apply. However, they would then add in an advertising fee of $500...even showed me an invoice with adv. fee printed on it--in bold face type. Dealer fee to be added was $399. The price would have been in excess of MSRP before taxes and registration. I paid $1800 less elsewhere.

    A buddy bought an '07 Azera Limited w/ Ultimate Pkg at Town Hyundai in NJ for $3,000 less than the CT dealer wanted for a left over '06 Azera w/out Ultimate Pkg. in June, '07. So, all that free stuff certainly did have a price tag.
  • cannon3cannon3 Member Posts: 296
    that either Hyundia drops the 10yr,100,000 mile warranty because of costs... or Ford/GM/Honda ect all get on the band wagon and add longer warranties to their line-ups.. As consumers lets hope its the latter... ;)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Given the trend, i.e. several car companies including GM, Ford, and Chrysler upping their powertrain warranties after Hyundai/Kia created their long-term warranty, and more recently other companies following Hyunidai's lead on the "assurance" program, I expect it will be the latter. If the 10 year/100k warranty hurt Hyundai/Kia because of costs over the past 10 years, I would expect they'd have killed it by now. In fact, they threatened to do that a couple of years ago, claiming it was no longer necessary as a marketing ploy, but the dealers went ballistic so the warranty stayed.
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Member Posts: 1,722
    A lot of dealers are doing that - our Toyota dealer, Honda, etc.
  • igozoomzoomigozoomzoom Member Posts: 801
    Exactly whose lifetime does the Chrysler Lifetime Powertrain Warranty cover- the vehicle's or the company's?

    Who wants to drive a Chrysler forever anyway? I imagine there would be a rather high rate of owners doing themselves in if they were stuck driving a Chrysler forever! :shades:
    2015.5 Volvo S60 T6 Drive-E Platinum, 2012 Mazda CX-9 GT
  • igozoomzoomigozoomzoom Member Posts: 801
    A lot of buyers don't realize that almost all of these long-term (100k, Lifetime) warranties aren't transferrable if the car is sold. For example, Hyundai, KIA and Mitsubishi drop from 10-year/100,000 miles to 5-year/60,000 miles if transferred to a second owner during the warranty coverage period. Suzuki is one of the few makes that transfers the full warranty to a second owner.
    2015.5 Volvo S60 T6 Drive-E Platinum, 2012 Mazda CX-9 GT
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Yep, and frankly, I think a 5 year / 60,000 miles bumper-to-bumper is still darn good. My girlfriend just bought an 07 Santa Fe and has 45k miles and 3 years left on her warranty, all without needing it to be "certified pre-owned" and costing more. Beats the major players by a long shot.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    The 10-year/100,000 miles that apparently becomes 5-year/60,000 miles, if transferred to a second owner, is a power train warranty not bumper-to-bumper.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Actually, in cases like Hyundai, Kia, and Mitsubishi, the 2nd owner gets the remainder of the 5 year/60k bumper-to-bumper warranty, which of course includes the powertrain.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Ah, I see. So basically the extended power train warranty is only for the original owner. I had thought their warranty (bumper to bumper) was 5 year/50K mi.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yep. For a few years, Hyundai allowed the powertrain warranty to transfer within a family, but they stopped doing that in (I think) 2003. So I simply retain the title to my 2004 Hyundai while my son uses up its 10 year powertrain warranty. :)

    It's kind of funny I think that you can buy a used car (i.e. a certified used car) that has more manufacturer warranty than a new car. I nearly jumped on a one-year-old certified Sonata a couple months ago, as it had four years of bumper-to-bumper warranty and nine years of powertrain warranty. But I got a certified Rabbit instead, and it has 4 years of bumper-to-bumper warranty (vs. 3 years on a new VW).
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Join Consumer Advice Editor, Phil Reed, and other Edmunds staff for an auto industry chat tomorrow night, Wednesday, 9:00 -10:00 pm/et (6:00 -7:00 pm/pt). To enter the chat, click on the banner at the top of the page. See you there!
  • igozoomzoomigozoomzoom Member Posts: 801
    It's kind of funny I think that you can buy a used car (i.e. a certified used car) that has more manufacturer warranty than a new car.

    That's why I bought a 2007 Accord LX V6 a few months back. A 2009 Accord has 3/36 bumper-to-bumper and 5/60 powertrain coverage. My '07 had 22k miles on it and is covered bumper-to-bumper for another 24 months (4yrs from original date sold) and 26k miles (48k from new). The powertrain warranty coverage is 7/100 from new, which is five years and 78k miles.
    2015.5 Volvo S60 T6 Drive-E Platinum, 2012 Mazda CX-9 GT
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    It's kind of funny I think that you can buy a used car (i.e. a certified used car) that has more manufacturer warranty than a new car.

    Not funny at all. You can buy a new car with the same extended warranty. For a certified used car the selling dealer is paying for the extended warranty and including it in the cost of the car. No different than any other added accessory.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Yep, and instead of making the warranty optional, so you can see what you are paying for it and decide if you think it is worth the cost, they call it "certified" so that buyers think it is magically better than some other used car they could buy and add a warranty to, if they chose to.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    A couple of years ago I was test driving a "certified" car in January and as I and the salesman were driving I decided to turn on the heater fan as the engine had warmed and guess what? The fan didn't work at all. I wasn't too impressed with their certification inspection.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Any car, new or used, has the estimated cost of the warranty factored into the price. The company has to decide if a long warranty will attract more customers, than the added cost of the longer warranty will deter. Companies who determine they have lost buyers, because of reliability issues in the past, are usually the ones who will benefit more from extending the warranty.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Amazing...

    A brand-new 2010 Legacy is about to be released: First Drive, and not a single word or opinion about it here?
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    You must have missed the lively discussion about this new model a couple of months ago. A lot of strong opinions expressed and a lot of pictures posted.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Nah, I remember it, it's just that now we're starting to get driving impressions. Plus, all this warranty talk is nauseating... ;)
  • ingvaringvar Member Posts: 205
    Car looks good and I love tech specs.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Agreed. I stated then and will reemphasize that I don't care for the bodywork on the new Legacy even though the interior, size, drivetrain and tech have improved a lot IMHO.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    It's ugly, and it's not clear that the US market will get the improved technology, suspension, and/or drivetrain. I'm waiting for a full road test of a US-spec car before I have anything further to say.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Oh yeah, I remember that car... the next incarnation of the soon-to-be-defunct Sebring, if I remember the consensus opinion. ;)

    Will be interesting to see if this new, larger Legacy with a back seat suitable for adult passengers can grab more than a miniscule portion of the mid-sized market, in which it is an afterthought. I mean, Toyota sells about twice as many Camrys in the US in a month as Subaru sells vehicles. :sick:
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