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I don't understand the race to be bland though. Subaru will never be Toyota, nor will Ford. Subaru would do better to be more like BMW, lower volume, higher mix, higher profit margin (because they are actually cars people want and are willing to pay for, instead of being lowest price bidder).
Our '05 Legacy Wagon base 5 speed has been a lot of fun. The back seat is tight, especially with the baby/child seat back there but it does offer a great deal of utility, reasonable power and mileage, and a fantastic driving experience. Of course, Subaru no longer makes that vehicle, so they are no longer on my shopping list. I hope it lasts as long as its reputation suggests!
Quoted for agreement. I personally don't think Subaru (or Mazda or VW for that matter) has to sell 40K sedans per month to be successful. In fact, I see them filling a niche that includes people that actually ENJOY driving and doesn't consider their car as "just another appliance" like a toaster.
Back to the Legacy: The pics that were released a few months ago weren't impressive, but the Edmunds article showed some decent angles. The rear end still looks a little generic, and the headlights still scream Sebring, but I've got more hope that it does look better in person than in photos, something I couldn't say about the concept shown earlier this year.
The interior IMO is a HUGE improvement over the current model. I am intrigued by the blue gauges (as well as in the Fusion Sport), and it looks to be more driver-oriented than the current model as well.
Of course, I'll wait and see it in person (and take a test-drive) until I can make a verdict, but I've got more hope than I did before on Subaru getting it right...
Actually, that is not too far fetched a scenario...Subaru being more like Toyota.
Uniqueness (ala boxer engine) has its good points, but it cost money--which is in short supply with low sales volumes.
See you there!
Also my regular razor is the Fusion. That must be it.
my wife originally was looking at a lincoln, so i requested a lincoln brochure.
then she decided she wanted to look at fords, so i requested a ford brochure.
we ended up buying a ford.
we wanted the lincoln, but the dealer played too many games.
we decided to buy a ford from a place where we had a better experience.
we decided to buy a ford from a place where we had a better experience.
...and you essentially got the same thing at a much lower price and less depreciation! Also, I've always found that if a dealer plays games in the sales dept. they likely do the same thing in service. You were wise to run.
we both agreed, our next vehicle will probably be a lincoln.
tuition is working out to be higher than we planned.
Now that Ford has the core brand almost back on its feet (with the Fiesta, new Focus and new Explorer due out in the next 12-18 months) I expect Lincoln to get all new sheetmetal (the MKS doesn't share any sheetmetal with the Taurus - not even the doors or roofline), unique and more upscale interiors and features and eventually a new RWD flagship platform. Mulally has the right plan - it will just take a few years to get there.
Any younger on here want to comment? Say the 30 and under crowd?
So we have a profitable niche manufacturer that is gaining market share as the number of vehicles sold is plummeting, and Toyota decides its a good time to implement their "one size fits most" policy...very interesting.
Any younger on here want to comment? Say the 30 and under crowd?
So two college classmates of my sister went from a Probe and a Mazda3 to a Fusion. Interestingly enough, my sister and another classmate still have Mazda3s (and her classmate is thinking of a Fusion Hybrid) and a friend of mine traded an '05 for an '08. These were all people in CA and unrelated to a mfgr.
In Michigan, everyone is somehow related to the auto industry - your brother or sister or grandma or aunt works for an OEM or a supplier and an get some type of discount program, which colors the gene pool a bit.
Things that happened since Toyota got 17% share:
1. Legacy wagon gone
2. Auto-trans only WRX
3. Auto-trans only Outback turbo
Definitely heading for one size fits most.
1. Legacy wagon gone
2. Auto-trans only WRX
3. Auto-trans only Outback turbo
Definitely heading for one size fits most.
I guess since Mazda now doesn't offer a manual with the 6S, nor does Honda with the Accord V6 4-door, they must also have had shares purchased by Toyota...
1. How about the possibility that the Legacy Wagon didn't sell? Considering I'm in Subaru heaven living in Upstate NY, and I've seen all of NONE on the roads without a dealer plate in the past 5+ years.
2. As long as I remember, the WRX has ALWAYS had a manual option, and still does.
3. Gotta knock this down to sales yet again, for pretty much the same reason in #1.
The only thing that has happened since Toyota bought shares is the development (and cancellation) of a proposed sports coupe that was to be sold by both automakers.
And 17% is less than the controlling percentage of 33.4%, according to Japanese law. Ask Ford...
With poor sales and people opting for the very similar Legacy Outback, there is no reason to have a Legacy wagon. As a member of one of the largest Subaru dealers in the nation, I can attest to the fact that the Legacy wagon did not sell.
2. Auto-trans only WRX
5-speed manual still offered
3. Auto-trans only Outback turbo
The Outback is not a car for enthusiasts. For all intents and purposes, it's an SUV according to Subaru. Again, we can point to lack of interest as a reason not to offer a manual Outback turbo.
In my opinion, Subaru is headed in the right direction. Outside of looks, the new Legacy sedan seems to offer something for everyone. If you want FE, buy the 2.5i with CVT. If you want a little fun, but the manual 2.5i. Power? 2.5GT or H6. Throw into that the ever popular Outback, Forester (selling like hot cakes BTW), and WRX / WRX STi and you have a popular car line. Outside of the Tribeca, everything is a good seller, in restricted regions of course!
No, just giving up on the enthusiast market. I was surprised Mazda did that, but oh well. Honda seems to bring out the V6 manual towards the end of the model run. I think it makes more sense in the sedan than the Honda Monte Carlo...I mean Accord Coupe.
1. How about the possibility that the Legacy Wagon didn't sell? Considering I'm in Subaru heaven living in Upstate NY, and I've seen all of NONE on the roads without a dealer plate in the past 5+ years.
I think that;s because they are all in my neighborhood. How do you define "didn't sell?" Did you define it as 300,000 units/yr like Toyota does with the Camry or 60,000 like a small profitable European manufacturer does with their 3-series?
3. Gotta knock this down to sales yet again, for pretty much the same reason in #1.
Again, what constitutes sales? The reason we went with Subaru last time is they had a sporty mid-size wagon with a manual transmission. If they are just making a boat with a slushbox, I can get that for a lot less $$.
The only thing that has happened since Toyota bought shares is the development (and cancellation) of a proposed sports coupe that was to be sold by both automakers.
And Toyota having access to Subaru plants in the US for manufacturing, allowing they have reserve capacity, made possible by canceling/eliminating models. :sick:
Blasting a company because they are trying to optimise sales with what their research tells them will sell is crazy. If people want a stick shift so bad they should be willing to pay extra for it. Maybe the manufacturers wouldn't abandon it if they can make money selling them. I like to drive a stick shift once in awhile but not on an everday basis and can't afford to just have a car sitting around to drive occassionally. I think I fall into the vast majority of midsize sedan buyers so the manufacturers are just responding to the market. Instead of complaining so much about stick shifts not being offered in every vehicle out there, pony up the extra cash. If the enthusiats do that the manufacturers will be glad to accomadate them.
tia,
Chris
That is a good point, if market research told the manufacturers that a large number of folks* would pay $1000 extra to substitute a manual for an auto in a midsize sedan, perhaps they would come back as a premium option.
*Note that "a large number" does not mean the 5 manual lovers reading this post, who are poised to respond with: "I'd pay $1000 extra and even more...".
The Accord--sporty handling,taut steering wheel ,quite a bit of road noise.
The Sonata is a bit of both actually.
Plus the resale value of Camcord is much better than Sonata.Resale wont matter if u keep a car for 10 years or drive it till the wheels fall off.
And if u are image conscious-go with Camry/Accord.
Also a used 1 or 2 yr old Sonata can be a screaming bargain!
They don't necessarily use less fuel anymore and when they do the difference may be negligable...at least they way they configure them on actual (midsize) cars.
Rewarding driving experience depends on the driver, for most the manual is just an annoyance. It is no longer certain to be quicker, as evidenced by the recent comparison of a 4 cylinder midsize (was it the Mazda6) where the auto out accelerated the manual all the way to about 85 mph. Then there is the whole issue of DSG type transmissions perhaps starting to come in to play...will Ford be putting their "power shift" in the Fusion any time soon?
Another advantage they had was that you typically had gotten one or two extra gears over the 3 and 4 speed automatics. This is now typically not the case...and in fact you may effectively lose the top gear in some cars. In my 2007 Mazda6, for example, 5th gear in the manual has a ratio that is fairly close to 4th in the auto. In my wife's 2005 Jetta the auto has a 6th gear that did not exist in the manual.
At any rate, you could drive the Sonata and get pricing even if only to have more negotiating power with the Toyota and Honda dealers. Another car to check out is the 2009 Optima--pricing is a little lower than the Sonata, but it has a suspension that is more tuned for handling than is the Sonata. If you like the way the Accord handles vs. the Camry, you may find the Optima more to your liking than the Sonata. But if you prefer the ride of the Camry, check out the Sonata GLS or Limited (SE has a sport-tuned suspension).
Ford's powershift DSGs will show up first on the Fiesta. It's more fuel efficient than a regular 6 speed so it will be targeted at smaller cars. Larger versions that can handle more torque are on the way but nothing is confirmed beyond the Fiesta. I'd bet the Fusion won't see one before 2011 - they just have so many other things to work on first.
But I'm not sure I'm ready to ditch the last manual in my stable and go automatics-only.
Agreed. If they loved their sticks so much they wouldn't have a problem paying extra. The argument of why should I pay more for less is kind of like eating at a French restaurant, you get less but it is supposedly so much better that you shouldn't mind paying $100 a plate. It's called exclusivity. If the manufacturers thought they could sell em(at a profit) ....they'd make em.
You cant put a manual on an engine built for an automatic, so you would need engines designed for manuals, along with the associated PCM. The engine would have different linkages, different flywheel, and other accessories, so overall it is less expensive to a car line to stick with one transmission type on a car run, than to have a manual as an option.
As far as CAFE is concerned, since most of the EPA numbers still show the manual trannies getting the same or better MPG I don't think that is of any consideration at this point. Could be in the future though. Right now I think it's strictly a demand thing that drives the production numbers.....not CAFE.
Oh good point. I will now just change my likes and wants to meet your paradigm. I stand corrected. /sarcasm
...replacing the "premium automatic" (read: slushbox) as that transmission can't hit the same fuel economy numbers
Larger versions that can handle more torque are on the way but nothing is confirmed beyond the Fiesta. I'd bet the Fusion won't see one before 2011 - they just have so many other things to work on first.
Volvo has it in Europe, slightly different but related transmission.
It did have a great stereo, and I had one of my favorite Foghat CD's and one of my favorite Guess Who CD's along on the trip with me, so that was very cool, to be able to rock out nicely. I drove two of my sisters and a friend of one of the sisters over to Kelowna, B.C. to see Randy Bachman and Burton Cummings of Guess Who fame in concert at Kelowna's Prospera Place. Nice to have a "safe" driver to drive up there, as the show started at 7:30PM and got out at around 11:30PM, so it was pitch-black for the drive back to the Okanogan, WA, area one of my sisters has built a home at.
Overall I would give the 2009 Toyota Camry a score of 80 out of 100. For the more sportier handling I'd give a serious look at the 2009 Kia Optima, if I was interested in a car in this size-range. My 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS just handles too well and a big drop in handling as large as the Camry's would not cut it for me. I'd take a serious look at the Kia Optima, and from what I've heard, the midsize Optima would fit my bill perfectly. BTW-Kia is working on a new Optima-sized car right now codenamed the VG. So the Optima is under re-constructive surgery as I type this post out.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
The Sonata Hybrid will be the first mass produced Hyundai Hybrid. Hyundai actually invented its first Hybrid powertrain in 1994 with a modified Scoupe engine. Hyundai thought Hybrids were a pipe dream and changed focus to Hydrogen Fuel Cells. In Terms of Hydrogen Tech, Hyundai is the leader. In Terms of Hybrid Tech Toyota is the leader.
By the way, Hyundai has a new Small Car Hybrid system they have in KIA C'eeds and Souls in Europe they are getting ready to drop in the Next Gen Accent.
The System is Simple:
1. 1.6L Gamma Engine 126 HP.
2. 5 Speed Automatic Tranmission without torque converter.
3. 20 HP Electric Motor that acts and a Torque Converter.
4. Smart Alternator with intergrated Starter.
5. Hyundai ISG System (Idle Stop and Go System)
6. Either Nickel Hydride or Lithium Polymer Batteries stored under the back seats accessible by lifting the back seats up.
7. Regenerative Braking Motor.
http://jalopnik.com/398092/2009-hyundai-elantra-hybrid-brings-smug-to-seoul
In general I think inexperienced drivers should have ABS, period. Ask your insurance company!