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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Sporty 4 door with manual... I suggest something a few years old - mainly because for the price of a basic small car, you can easily get something decent and useable.

    A few year old CTS comes to mind, for instance, as do the previous generation Saabs, and of course the Volvo S60. The rear seats are decently sized AND they are considerably nicer handling than any of the budget boxes. Plus, they often come with all the goodies of a upper-end vehicle.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Sporty 4-door with manual?

    Easy. Mazda 6.

    Whether it's the 6i (with 4-cyl), 6s (with V6), or the MazdaSpeed6 (with turbo 4-cyl), you can't get any sportier for the price. Any model could be had for well under invoice. You can even get a 6i or 6s 5-door if you need a little more cargo flexibility.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    At 16k the Accord VP is an excellent value, at 18k for basically the same car, you are getting pretty close to a Mazda V6/stick in terms of TMV.

    According to Edmunds for the Accord the LX trim adds power mirrors, an upgraded audio system and a few extra interior features. The SE is similar to the LX but has 16-inch alloy wheels (17s for V6-equipped SE models), rear disc brakes, a six-disc in-dash CD changer and steering wheel-mounted audio controls.

    The Accord SE is pretty comparable to the Mazda6 SVE in equipment level. However the Mazda6 SVE can likely be bought for $1000-2000 less than even the Accord VP, based on the $16k figure being given for the manual transmission Accord VP.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    I'm in the market for a sporty 4door w/ manual transmission;

    I'm curious to know why you want a manual transmission in a sedan? Seems like a chore to me. Also you'll be penalized at resale.

    A manual in a coupe I understand.
  • slegacy93slegacy93 Member Posts: 9
    I'm curious to know why you want a manual transmission in a sedan? Seems like a chore to me. Also you'll be penalized at resale.

    A manual in a coupe I understand.

    If I may chime in here, I don't think a manual in a sedan is that odd of a combination. If he isn't driving in much traffic, a manual is a great choice, IMHO. It adds a level of excitement to a relatively "boring" class of cars. My next car will be a manual sedan, as is my current vehicle, as I will need 4 doors for the family but enjoy shifting as well. My commute is 95% highway with no traffic, so obviously I have a different opinion than one who sits in rush hour traffic.

    As far as resale, I personally am of the opinion that those who purchase cars with manual transmissions, especially midsize sedans, tend to drive their cars to the point where resale value is really a moot point. I feel that those who purchase manuals have more involved/emotional attachments to their cars.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Some people just like to shift themselves. I'm one of them, but we are few and far between.

    One of the main reasons for getting a stick in the past, slightly better gas mileage, is pretty much moot now. With auto trannies having 5, 6, or even 7 gears now fuel mileage differences are almost gone and in some cases have swung the other way around.

    I for one love driving a stick in anything but a truck. The extra control in the snow is another reason for my choice.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    I'm curious to know why you want a manual transmission in a sedan? Seems like a chore to me.

    It's no chore to an enthusiast, especially since a manual offers better control, especially when driving aggressively through corners, and in the slippery stuff.

    For me, no manual = no sale.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Accords seem to outnumber Camrys in the Southeast. But there are a ton of Altimas too. Nissan has a strong reputation here because they build a great vehicle and price it a little less than Honda. Hyundai doesn't seem to benefit from the same formula - at least in midsize sedans. I'm seeing more Santa Fes than Sonatas.
  • tallman1tallman1 Member Posts: 1,874
    I agree with the positive manual comments. I love driving a manual in heavy traffic too.

    Just because someone needs four doors, doesn't mean he or she doesn't want the fun and reliability of a manual. The advantages for me are:

    - better overall mileage
    - lasts longer than an automatic (fewer repairs)
    - cheaper initial cost (automatics are usually a more expensive option)
    - more control
    - quicker and more responsive
    - waaaay more fun to drive

    Again, these are advantages for ME. I realized that I'm in a minority, especially since many seem to have problems driving a manual in heavy traffic... I find it to be a distinct advantage. And the Accord manual is sooo smooth. :)
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    The point about resale value only holds if it is a basic car. A manual tansmission BMW, Mercedes, or even a Celica... They sell immediately and for more money.

    When a stickshift C class comes on the lot - the local dealership put an ad online and it's gone in three days or less every time. There's a very dedicated and small group that specifically seeks out these cars.

    Plus, yes, shifting is more fun, even in traffic. I can move a car with a good gearbox in and out of city traffic seconds quicker per "move" that I make if I want to. Automatics stink at the 10-20mph difference quick bursts that you need to zig and zag through traffic. By the time a typical torque converter unlocks itself and the thing decides to shift, I'm already in that spot.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    I personally am of the opinion that those who purchase cars with manual transmissions, especially midsize sedans, tend to drive their cars to the point where resale value is really a moot point. I feel that those who purchase manuals have more involved/emotional attachments to their cars.

    A most interesting analogy, slegacy93. It is logical. I wonder if there are any surveys to support the theory?

    The last manual transmission car we owned was a 1977 Mazda GLC (Great Little Car) that lasted about 15 years without any drive train problems. We ended up giving the car away to a first-time driver. :)
  • daedalus34rdaedalus34r Member Posts: 94
    AGREED.

    I just like having more control over the car and plus its alot of fun. You dont have to have a coupe to necessitate a manual. I drove a 5speed Wrangler once, that was sweet experience.

    I rarely encounter stop&go traffic so that won't be an issue.

    What dissapoints me is that in the midwest chicagoland area, there are no leftover 07 GT's. So I have to wait until the 08 production ramps up. From what the salesperson said, GT's are prioritized last. Right now you can find lowlevel trim legacy's.. next on the list is the new 3.0L model due like mid-late june.

    The other car I have in mind is the Mazdaspeed3. The MS6 is a porky/heavy looking car ... I dunno, I'll check it out. I hear there are great deals on MS6's since they arent selling well.
  • slegacy93slegacy93 Member Posts: 9
    I personally am of the opinion that those who purchase cars with manual transmissions, especially midsize sedans, tend to drive their cars to the point where resale value is really a moot point. I feel that those who purchase manuals have more involved/emotional attachments to their cars.

    A most interesting analogy, slegacy93. It is logical. I wonder if there are any surveys to support the theory?

    I also would love to see a survey to support the point. Maybe someone on here has the interest or time??

    I know it applies to me. We currently have 3 cars, the oldest being my, you guessed it, a 1993 Subaru Legacy. My wife keeps hounding me to get rid of it, but I am attached. Granted, it was my first car, but it also has a manual - something our other 2 cars do not. This is my #1 reason for not wanting to let it go.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Having shopped a used S60, there is nothing even remotely sporty about it. It is like driving a Sweedish Taurus.

    As far as a manual, that is why I am looking at the Accord, Mazda6, and how the Legacy wagon came to be.
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Member Posts: 1,722
    I completely agree with tallman1. I have a Camry with a manual transmission!
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    One more for a 4 door manual. I had a two door Integra, but then kids came along - why should I deny myself the fun, speed, control, economy, low purchase price and durability of a manual just because I now need 4 doors.

    BTW the RX-8 is a 4 door. ;)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "BTW the RX-8 is a 4 door. ;)"

    But you can only fit 2.5 people into it comfortably. :)
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Plus, yes, shifting is more fun, even in traffic. I can move a car with a good gearbox in and out of city traffic seconds quicker per "move" that I make if I want to. Automatics stink at the 10-20mph difference quick bursts that you need to zig and zag through traffic. By the time a typical torque converter unlocks itself and the thing decides to shift, I'm already in that spot.

    You obviously haven't driven a good ManuMatic with a 235+ hp V6 (like the Sonata)to make those comments.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    The RX8 can fit 4 people well enough. The requirement usually is two adults plus a couple of kids. And the S60R is a very nice car, used.(always get the performance version of course, of anything, used)
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    if we polled the aprticipants in this froum you will certainly find a disportionate amount of MT proponents. Why? because we are all car nuts and therfore more likely to appreciate and enjoy the control that almost any MT car gives us. Nationally, however, it is not even close -a samll percentage of 4 bangers get sold this way and an almost miniscule percentage of the V6s (some brands not even offered) sold this way. Higher gas prices may add a few more MT 4 bangers, but overall we Americans have become really lazy drivers - the Europeans just laugh at us...
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    That's mostly because there are no manuals being *offered*. The number of people desiring a manual has hardly changed in the last 30 or 40 years. A good indication of this is the number of manu-matics that are everywhere. If the pent up demand for shifting manually wasn't there, Porsche would have remained the only company doing it.

    I find it to be no problem in daily traffic - and I live in Los Angeles, birthplace of the freeway and traffic jam.

    For me, it's mostly cost and reliability. If I need a new clutch, I can budget for one and squeeze it into my budget. If I need a rebuild on an automatic... I've had cars sit for as long as three months as I tried to scrape together the money.(read: take the bus, which in L.A. is not fun at all - or safe)

    But it's also fun at times - traffic is okay - it is what it is. But when I get into the mountains, life is good. :)
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    You obviously haven't driven a good ManuMatic with a 235+ hp V6 (like the Sonata)to make those comments.

    Actually I have, as well as a few tiptronic vehicles, and a paddle shift BWM and GTI DSG. It just wasn't as fun for me as shifting. If that works for you, I think thats fantastic and when I'm old I might get a slushbox or CVT(although my father and father in law are both in their 60s and have 6 speed manuals), but for now, it has to have a pedal for a clutch if they want my business.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    There was a post in the 2008 Sonata discussion from, apparently, a Hyundai sales rep, saying that the 2008 Sonata I4 will be available only with a stick shift, in GLS trim only. Meaning there will be no I4 + automatic choice on the Sonata.

    If that is true, what could HMA be thinking??
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    the Europeans just laugh at us...

    Why? Because we don't like to shift gears? Who wants to deal with a clutch anyway? Ferrari seems to like paddle shifters themselves.

    I could care less what the Euros think about us anyway. Our lifestyle is vastly different, more affluent, more adventurous. Our vehicles reflect that.
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    That's mostly because there are no manuals being *offered*. The number of people desiring a manual has hardly changed in the last 30 or 40 years

    I disagree. The market doesn't work that way. car manufactures produce the products people want. That kind of stuff is heavily polled, surveyed, and focus group tested. The most likely culprit is traffic. For most people, working a clutch and stick in bumper to bumper traffic moving 10 mph is just a pain in the [non-permissible content removed].
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    I'd bet that for the europeans, mpg is the driving force in their preference for MT over autos. Ditto for their affinity to diesel cars. with 6-7 dollars or more for a gallon of gas, I guess every mpg you can squeeze out counts.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Honda's apparent diesel offering in the new Accord could start a trend in the states for diesels. The Accord is so mainstream that its embracement of diesel vs. say VW's is a big endorsement by a major player that may turn more and more heads toward the new generation of diesels.
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    Maybe, but diesel's are a pain in the neck. I owned a golf diesel 10 years ago. They do last forever (mine was running perfect at 400k), and get tremendous millage (I was getting 60) but they can be a nightmare in the cold. below 20 degrees, diesel fuel turns into something resembling jello. You have to be careful to buy winterized diesel, or, or properly do it yourself. You also need to make sure your battery is in top shape, the same with the glow plugs. A gas car can start with a weak battery, a diesel won't. In extreme cold (about 10 degrees or lower) you really need to plug it in at night. There's issues with supply (most gas stations don't have diesel pumps), more maintainance, and repairs are usually much more expensive. Just finding a good diesel mechanic can be a challenge. A diesel motor is also a good bit more expensive than a traditional gasoline engine. And, without a turbo charger, your going to notice a considerable loss of power. A lot more torque, but less horse power.
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    That was a very interesting read, Elroy5. Of course I would like to have seen a Fusion thrown into the mix, but was not surprised that the Accord finished first.

    and consumer reports put the altima 1st, and motor trends named the camry 2007 car of the year.

    rankings are really quite worthless. Not to knock ANY car, but you can find a review or ranking that says exactly what you want it to say, for any car you want.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    rankings are really quite worthless. Not to knock ANY car, but you can find a review or ranking that says exactly what you want it to say, for any car you want.

    Not necessarily, name a (full) comparison that the Fusion, Malibu, and Sebring won (that they didn't pay for themselves).
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I owned a golf diesel 10 years ago.

    Wow, I wouldn't expect any advances in technology over eh, a decade. :D

    Current VW TDIs don't even have the diesel rattle, and additives to the fuel itself do a lot to make it more temperature stable. Diesel in my area is also ~$0.50/gal cheaper than gasoline, and diesel vehicles will travel considerably further on each gallon. I haven't seen a gas station in SE MI without Diesel. Glow plugs have longer replacement intervals than spark plugs.

    I wouldn't hesitate for a second if I could find a reliable manual transmissioned diesel sedan in my price range, and I would definitely do that before going for some half gas/half electric hodge podge that has only been around for a few years. Hopefully those battery packs are better than the one in my laptop, which uses the same technology.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    name a (full) comparison that the Fusion, Malibu, and Sebring won

    Yea ...but the term "won" is misused.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Yea ...but the term "won" is misused.

    OK, let's say "ranked" first, or even second.
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    Wow, I wouldn't expect any advances in technology over eh, a decade.


    I'm not knocking diesel's, they do have several advantages. but most of the technological improvements have been in the area of emmisions.

    But they are good cars. I bought the golf used for $300 with 300,000 miles on it, and kept it for 4 years. I gave it to my father in law, in perfect working order. And most of the time, it ran problem free. Its just when they do have problems, they're 10x the headache than with a gas car. There are deffinitly drawbacks to them, and reasons why they've never caught on big in the states.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I disagree, it's claustrophic back there. But to each there own. :)
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    Not necessarily, name a (full) comparison that the Fusion, Malibu, and Sebring won (that they didn't pay for themselves).

    I'm sure they're out there. The point is, all these reviewers have their own preferences, and it shows. Just look at C&D. They always name honda tops. the fit, civic, accord, CRV, it doesn't matter. If its a honda, 9 out of 10 times they will rank it best. What did they say in that review? car of the universe? I mean, come on. be a little objective.

    And no, I have nothing against honda. own a civic and almost bought an accord. They're great cars, worth the money, and deffinitly a top tier car. But I just have to take C&D with a grain of salt.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    The trend has already been started. Mercedes is offering their Bluetec. BMW has had diesels ready to go in the states for a while. They are waiting for code uniformity dealing with pollution standards.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    That's easy. C/D ranked the Fusion 2nd in a comparo of the Accord, Fusion, Sonata, and (previous-gen) Camry. As for the Malibu, wasn't it MT COTY in its previous incarnation? (Questionable, maybe, but it counts as a #1.) And with the new Malibu based on the same platform as the Aura, this year's NACOTY, the Malibu could take home some accolades next year. As for the Sebring... it is such a great car, some company just got paid about $500M by DaimlerChrysler to take over ownership of it along with the rest of Chrysler. :P
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    That's easy. C/D ranked the Fusion 2nd in a comparo of the Accord, Fusion, Sonata, and (previous-gen) Camry.

    I would like to see a link to that one. I thought the Fusion was 4th, out of 4 in that one.

    Questionable,

    COTY is more than just questionable. They only consider "new designs" for car of the year. The Aura had no competition. The chances of the 08 Malibu winning COTY next year are 0%. It will have (stiff) competition.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    The RX8 may be a bit claustrophobic, but well, you're not the one sitting back there, are you?

    :)

    As for diesels, look, Europe gets cold winters - winters that make most of the U.S. look like a coldsnap. And their TDI/CDI vehicles do just fine. The new Honda diesel is, as Honda says, "designed by a man who hates diesels" - so it's quiet and appliance-reliable.

    Also, diesel fuel takes less resources to refine and can be blended with, well, anything. You can in theory run a diesel engine on soybean oil, corn oil, or whatever - and most of them are far more renewable than petrochemical based fuels.(even a small amount helps)
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    The Aura had no competition.

    Actually yes, the Camry for one.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Its easy for the media to just go with the best sellers.. keeps the sales of their mags up! ;)
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    Your right. Diesel made his engine to run off peanut oil. and you can buy (about $600) conversion kits to run any diesel off any vegetable oil. and its not that difficult. The only thing you need diesel fuel for is starting the vehicle.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Backseats, usable backseats. Isn't that the point. The backseats in the RX-8 aren't generally usable. Yes Mazda can claim it's a 4 seater, but only 2 pint size individuals can be back there and not care.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    The backseats in the RX-8 aren't generally usable.

    That's putting it mildly. The center console in the middle of the two seats is like a vise. A claustrophobic nightmare.

    Does the clamshell door style qualify a car for sedan status?
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    I wouldn't hesitate for a second if I could find a reliable manual transmissioned diesel sedan in my price range, and I would definitely do that before going for some half gas/half electric hodge podge that has only been around for a few years. Hopefully those battery packs are better than the one in my laptop, which uses the same technology.

    Well said!

    Diesels have come a long way in only 5 years, let alone 10. A friend of the family owns a florist here in upstate NY, and has relied on VW Golf diesels for years. They both get about 30K miles per year, and will run 8-9 years until the body rusts out on them. They're not loud, they don't stink, and the glow plugs have to warm an extra second or two in below-zero weather, but they start right up. Not to mention the 40-50 MPG he gets regularly, which in $$$$ savings more than pays off for the diesel model price premium.

    Diesels can only get better, and I do hope Honda jumps in the diesel market. They're well worth the supposed "sacrifices", and I'd take one over a hybrid any day.
  • ashleydw85ashleydw85 Member Posts: 6
    I just got a used 2000 Mazda 626 w/ 118,000 miles. I've had it for 2 days and now it won't go into reverse. It shifts fine when you're driving but what would cause it to not go into reverse?
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Does the clamshell door style qualify a car for sedan status?

    I don't know, but the RX-8 is classified as a "coupe" by edmunds.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    I just got a used 2000 Mazda 626 w/ 118,000 miles. I've had it for 2 days and now it won't go into reverse. It shifts fine when you're driving but what would cause it to not go into reverse?
    Sounds like a linkage problem. Why would you buy a car that had no reverse? Did reverse work when you bought it? I'd take it to a Mazda dealer.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Update: the original post in the 2008 Sonata discussion noting that the I4 would not be available with an automatic on the 2008 Sonata was in error. In fact, the I4 will be available on all trim lines for 2008. There are a few other tweaks to the Sonata as well, e.g. more standard equipment on the SE and Limited. Here are the details:

    wylldshark, "2008 Hyundai Sonata" #57, 26 May 2007 8:08 am
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