Midsize Sedans 2.0

plekto · August 2009

My suggestion is to get the Holden G8.(Pontiac re-badge of course, but made in Australia). It's the last of the V8 muscle cars and it looks great.

james1982 · August 2009

Nice find, ergsum.

It looks like the '11 Optima is going to be a lot larger than the '09.

m6user · August 2009

I agree with the commenter that the C pillar looks like a blind spot in the making unless it's "make-up" just makes it appear that thick/bulky/wide. I can't really compare the size vs. the present Optima by looking at a picture with no reference. I hope they give it the engines from the Sonata but keep the same size they have now.....that would make it a little sportier than the Hyundai.

iluvmysephia1 · August 2009

but I must say Peter Schreyer body designs rock the house, and the car. The former Audi Design Chief would be primary responsible for this new body design. From sources in the industry the new Soul and Forte were only partly designed by Schreyer. The new No.3 concept is Schreyer's design, too. Kia will only improve more and more as time cruises on, IMO.

Kia Venga, the production version of the No.3 concept

explorerx4 · August 2009

that is very different looking for midsize sedan.
kia needs a new head designer, it looks like a sub compact. :P

backy · August 2009

Yeah, these small cars can be deceiving. Whodathunk by looking at the Versa, for example, from the outside that it has the interior space of a mid-sized car--and a lot more usable rear legroom than almost any mid-sized sedan?

stephen987 · August 2009

If the Venga is a midsize sedan, then I need new glasses. . .

gooddeal2 · August 2009

You will need keep getting new glasses unless people stop comparing a sedan to a station wagon or a hatchback.

This mess started when people try to exaggerate the fuel efficiency of the Prius...it's a compact car from the outside but it has the mid-size space...etc. :shades:

backy · August 2009

It's confusing when some so-called mid-sized sedans have LESS interior room than so-called compacts or even sub-compacts. And some so-called mid-sized cars have the room of full-sized cars. But that is the tangled web we weave.

lilengineerboy · August 2009

I guess I don't understand why the classification exactly matters. I kind of feel like I have a certain amount of cr*p I need to get in the car and as long as the vehicle can hold it, it meets the requirement. I also use metrics like fuel economy and price in my purchase decision.
Of course, "fun to drive" trumps most other metrics as long as I can fit a car seat in the vehicle. Since most manufacturers have stopped making manuals (I don't think you can get a Mazda6 with a stick and a sunroof in 2010), my money is on the ones that are left. The Legacy GT sounds great.

jeffyscott · August 2009

Also EPA measures of "interior volume*" don't necessarily tell you how it feels to sit in and drive the car. Several years ago when shopping for my wife's new car two of the finalists were the Jetta and the Volvo S40. Both have about the same EPA "passenger volume", 91 cf for the Jetta and 92 for the S40. However the S40 felt much smaller to us when actually getting in the two vehicles for test drives on the same day. The S40 was too cramped for us, while the Jetta was not, despite the slightly larger "volume". (these are compacts, but illustrate the point)

*EPA "interior volume" is calculated by multiplying three interior dimensions together: hip or shoulder room multiplied by leg room multiplied by head room.

I think looking at the individual measurements is more useful:
If you have long legs, then front leg room is important.
If you have a long torso and/or like to sit very upright, then head room is important.
If you want three in the back seat, then rear hip/shoulder room is important.
Etc.

acdii · August 2009

If you want three in the back seat, then rear hip/shoulder room is important.

Finding one that has enough rear hip room for two car seats and a third person is extremely difficult. The only two left are the Grand Marquis, and Town Car. You need at least 60" of room to fit two car seats and still have room for a third person to fit comfortably. In our Camry, with 55" the room between the two seats is very cramped, non existent in a Prius at 52", so how they can put the two in the same class is beyond me. GM is the only one that has a few cars that come close to the 60" mark, and one BMW. If you want something with this kind of back seat room, you are stuck having to get a SUV.

backy · August 2009

I am with you there. To me, the usable interior volume, fuel economy, overall ride/handling, safety, comfort etc. are more important than the external size of the car. In fact, the smaller the car, the better I like it (easier parking).

I am sorry to see the size of "mid-sized" cars ever increasing. As that continues, I will be more likely to focus on the so-called "compact" class, which more and more is like the mid-sized cars of a just a few years ago. Plenty of room for me, with the tidier outside dimensions I prefer (and probably higher FE also).

m6user · August 2009

I agree. You can put a cube(not talking about the Nissan product) on four wheels and get great epa interior volume but how usable or comfortable would it be. I am not tall and don't have long legs or long torso. I'm lucky in that headroom and legroom have never been much of a consideration. I focus on a lot things when buying a car but shoulder and hip room are very important especially in the winter when wearing heavy coats, etc. If I lived in Florida I could probably be comfortable in smaller dimensions.

jeffyscott · August 2009

Assuming the third would-be 3rd back seat passenger is a kid, the old front bench seats might've worked too. Does anyone still offer that in a midsize?

Also, I'd assume a minivan would work as well as an SUV.

m6user · August 2009

I believe I read a review recently that mentioned that a bench front seat could be ordered. I think it may have been a '10 LaCrosse but I'm not sure. My daughter has a Camry for a company car and fit two infant seats and the 10 year old in the back. The 10 year old is thin and is still kind of cramped so I agree that it really wouldn't work at all for a teen or adult. Maybe the new Accord or Mazda6 as they both have huge back seats.

james1982 · August 2009

Since most manufacturers have stopped making manuals (I don't think you can get a Mazda6 with a stick and a sunroof in 2010), my money is on the ones that are left.

Yeah, I have to agree with you. I have always (and only) owned standard transmissions. I was recently reading an article in Newsweek that stated that only about 5% of Americans own a manual transmission vehicle, and fewer than 8% know how to drive one.

I think that's sad. Anyone can learn how to drive a manual in about a day!!!

I'm SO glad that my '09 Sonata GLS came with standard transmission. I was also looking at the Honda Accord, and Mazda 6, but none of my local dealers (Richmond, VA) had manuals!!! I was shocked.

Standard transmissions are fun, less expensive, easier on gas, and need less transmission maintenance work. I'll admit: a steep mountain road might be difficult for a beginner, but practice makes perfect!

m6user · August 2009

A couple of days ago the radio station I listen to had a contest and the answer was the % of Americans who can drive a stick. The answer was about 35%. I don't know where they got the info but I think it sounds closer to reality than 8%.

Many modern transmissions actually are rated higher mpg by the EPA than manuals. The computers are getting so good at shifting at the best possible moments that they can beat the sticks even accounting for a small weight difference and power usage. They are less expensive and usually require a little more maint and fun to drive if you do not have to drive in stop and go traffic a lot. If so, they can be a royal pain in the left leg.

fushigi · August 2009

I can drive a stick. I do not, though. For one, my wife can't and we won't buy a car that only one of use can drive. Another reason is for those occasions I get stuck in traffic. A stick is a lot more fatiguing in those circumstances.

Do modern driving schools teach how to drive a manual?

Anyway, I can believe 35% can but only 8% buy them.

The last stick I drive, BTW, was a 24' U-Haul truck.

lilengineerboy · August 2009

Many modern transmissions actually are rated higher mpg by the EPA than manuals. The computers are getting so good at shifting at the best possible moments that they can beat the sticks even accounting for a small weight difference and power usage.*

* On the EPA fuel economy certification drive

tenpin288 · August 2009

Here are a few new pics of the 2011 Sonata. Impressive!

http://www.hyundai-blog.com/index.php/2009/08/31/2011-hyundai-sonata-i40-reveale- d/

backy · August 2009

I especially like the side view, incredibly swoopy for a "family sedan". The rear is OK too, but the taillamps look a little large-ish for my taste. The front is... interesting. The grille looks overwrought, IMO. I am hoping it's just the camera angle or that they'll tone it down a bit for the US market. The interior shot isn't very good here but in other photos it looked very well done, especially for a car that is designed to sell starting at under $20k MSRP (which it will unless 2011 prices shoot up).

I am wondering if the note about the "6 speed" transmissions refers to both automatic and manual??

tenpin288 · August 2009

It's definitely an aggressive look. My thinking is the front view is an exaggerated "fisheye" picture, but time will tell. Hyundai is definitely not playing it safe with this Sonata!

m6user · August 2009

The rear looks a lot like the VW CC and a little like it from the side too. Not a bad form to emulate! The front looks horrendous but I think it is the camera lens or angle. It couldn't possibly look that freakish. Paddle shifters on a Sonata??? Maybe the SE will really be sporty....who knows.

cannon3 · September 2009

Don't trust it. I own a 2006 Ford Fusion SEL V6 and have had no repair costs, my maintenance costs have not come close to what Edmunds says, I also paid no interest on my loans for this automobile. My insurance is not even close to what Edmunds says also. I know it is supposed to be some kind of "average" Beings I belong to 3 Fusion boards across the internet. I posted these numbers and noone has come even close to what Edmunds says for "costs". TCO means nothing.

wayne52 · September 2009

I think the 2011 pix of the sonata show a great improvement over previous sonatas. However, I think it now looks like an ugly version of the camry.

mickeyrom · September 2009

Ugly is a "great improvement"?

explorerx4 · September 2009

i have an 07 fusion with about 17.5k. i get free oil changes from the dealer. other than that i have paid for 2 tire rotations, an air filter, and new wipers.
how many miles do you have on yours and what have you had done?
i am mostly wondering about tires and brakes.

wayne52 · September 2009

I think hyundai and kia have used the Bulgarian women's olympic weightlifting team for designing their cars in the past. Or perhaps I could say Hyundai/Kia have done for auto design what Abdul the tentmaker has done for women's lingerie. Yes, I think this is a great improvement over the previous sonata, but to me it looks like an ugly camry. I hope they've worked out the suspension issues on this one - seems to be a perennial problem for them.

mickeyrom · September 2009

I am 73 years old, so I have owned many cars of different brands.My current car is a 2006.5 KIA Optima EX and I have had complete strangers stop me and compliment the styling of my KIA.Hardly ugly, so you have to remember that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". I actually can't think of a single brand that I think as ugly.The hyundai Sonata of the 2006 time frame were even better looking than the Optima,but the Optima has a better looking dash and center stack.

backy · September 2009

"Ugly Camry" is redundant.

m6user · September 2009

I'm not fond of how a Camry drives as it's a little too soft for me and I think the quality control and material qualityof the interior has declined over the past five years or so, but I personally don't think it looks that bad from strictly an outside styling viewpoint. The car I think I like the least is the Accord styling. In fact most of Honda's recent styling of all their vehicles just hasn't been that good compared to the rest.

I personally think that a lot of people just like to jump on the bandwagon and say the Camry is ugly because they have been ranked so highly and #1 in sales for so many years. Kind of like rooting for the underdog. I agree it has it's faults but a lot of people here seem to relish in deriding it every chance they get.

I've never owned one but I also wonder how many that crucify it so have either.

backy · September 2009

When the Suzuki Kizashi concept was unveiled, I thought it was a great looking car. But now that the actual production car has seen the light of day, all I can do is yawn and try to figure out why anyone would buy this car instead of one of the other mid-sizers in the market.

The concept:

The actual car:

More photos: http://www.autoblog.com/2009/07/30/2010-suzuki-kizashi-sized-up-against-the-comp- etition/

The one thing I like about the Kizashi is that it's smaller than other mid-sizers. So if the interior is roomy, that is a plus in my book.

backy · September 2009

I'm not fond of how a Camry drives as it's a little too soft for me and I think the quality control and material qualityof the interior has declined over the past five years or so...

If that's not "deriding" the Camry, I don't know what is. But I agree with both comments. I think the Camry is still a competent mid-sizer, especially with the improvements for 2010, but not a leader in the class as it once was. For people looking for a mid-sized sedan with a soft, quiet ride above all else, it's as good a choice as any.

m6user · September 2009

They say in a recent Autoblog article that Suzuki was trying to emulate the TSX and when you compare the dimensions they are almost the same. However, they also mention the Jetta and numbers are far off the mark in that regard. They also mentioned that the most apparent vehicle that Suzuki is trying to compete with is the new Legacy. I guess because of the size, engine, CVT and AWD.

I too think the real thing is kind of letdown vs. the concept but it still appears to be a lot better looking (IMO) than the Legacy. Of course, these are just pictures so I'll have reserve final judgement until we get to see the real thing.

backy · September 2009

They also mentioned that the most apparent vehicle that Suzuki is trying to compete with is the new Legacy.

That is pretty strange when you think about it. The Legacy doesn't sell in large numbers. And those who buy it are most likely Subaru fans, who wouldn't cross over to Suzuki. And given the bump in size for the Legacy for 2010, it appears the car the Kizashi is trying to emulate is... the OLD Legacy? :confuse:

Some of the Kizashi's attributes are appealing, such as the trim size, the emphasis on safety, and the reportedly low starting price. But with mid-sizers such as the Fusion, Optima, and Sonata going for $15-16k (pre-C4C anyway), safety and low price alone won't cut it. Maybe it will appeal to people who want something different on their driveways.

m6user · September 2009

But I wonder what the interior dimensions between the two will be?

I think they realize they can't compete with the really big guys and since the AWD SX4 is their biggest seller now that maybe they are providing a bigger and more stylish way to step those buyers up. Come in looking for a $13k SX4 and go home with a $17k Kizashi!

m6user · September 2009

If that's not "deriding" the Camry, I don't know what is

I guess what I meant by deriding was more in line with the official definition: "to laugh at in contempt or scorn; make fun of; ridicule".

Simply commenting that I'm not fond of something or that they aren't doing quite as good a job on some aspects ias they used to is hardly what I would call deriding. I actually was sticking up for the Camry in comparison to most of the comments on here.

I think it's pretty easy to pick out the "ugly" posts that I would call deriding.

backy · September 2009

I got it. Thinking a car is ugly (i.e. not fond of the car's styling) is derision, while thinking its ride is too soft and quality has slipped is sticking up for it.

Actually, except for the booger hanging off the Camry's nose, I don't think it's all that bad looking. But you know how some people look at the face first and make a judgment on looks based on that. Maybe not fair, but it happens. It's similar to the Fusion, for me. Once I get past the sea of chrome up front, the car is inoffensive. But there's so much chrome it's hard to get past it.

m6user · September 2009

I'm glad you understand now.

acdii · September 2009

I own a Camry Hybrid, and here's a derision, its ugly. The front end is ugly, the ride is soft, and it handles like a rowboat. Quality in materials is far less than I would have expected from a Toyota, especially the upper end of the line car. I recently test drove both the Fusion Hybrid and the Sport, and if it wasn't for the higher cost of the Fusion Hybrid, I would gladly trade up to it. It rides nicer, much quieter inside, and handles far better, not to mention the quality of the materials and fit in finish are superior. The Sport, it knocked my socks off, quick agile, firm but quiet ride, my only gripe is the drivers seat is not the same as the Hybrid, instead of a rounded corner under the thigh, it angles and cuts around, and is uncomfortable in certain positions, but that is nothing that moving a leg cant fix.

With that said, there are some aftermarket parts that can dress up the Camry(except that ugly nose). I checked around and found RK Sport makes a spoiler, ground kit and a hood that make the car look HOT. Add in a pair of 18" polished rims, lowering springs and some 55's, and the car no longer looks average, dull boring Camry. Check it out here

After much contemplation about getting rid of the Camry for something else, weighing in depreciation of a new car, cost in fuel economy for a non hybrid, etc. I came to the conclusion that it isn't worth it right now to get another sedan, even considered a Lexus RX 400h, but all I could afford would be a 2006, and to me that would be downgrading since the Camry has better features, like JBL, XM Radio, MP3 player, Smart Key, and a few others that weren't available on the Lexus 3 years ago. Frankly I wasn't impressed with the Lexus, my Veracruz is actually a nicer car.

So I am keeping it, and getting it modified with lowered springs, Wheels and tires, and the above body kit. I am also going to upgrade the interior with heated/cooled leather instead of the cloth it has, and see if I can find a power passenger seat. Hopefully the springs will improve the ride and handling a bit, and maybe I can make this car mine, instead of the run of the mill average Camry.

m6user · September 2009

How much does all that cost? Wouldn't it be close to what you may lose on a trade? I would think the Camry Hybrid would have some pretty good trade-in value. Know what you mean about the JBL. My daughter has a Camry for a company car and it has the JBL stereo in it and it sounds very good.

tlong · September 2009

The front end is ugly, the ride is soft, and it handles like a rowboat....
So I am keeping it, and getting it modified with lowered springs, Wheels and tires, and the above body kit."

No offense, but this is no surprise. The Camry is about as far as you can get from a firm, sporty ride, even in the midsized family sedan segment.

berri · September 2009

I don't know, seems most midsized cars are no that great looking inside or out. They've got ugly snouts whether its Camry, Accord, the orthodontia over chroming of the Fusion or the dumb crossbar Chevy's and Malibu. A lot of the newest interiors are toy like inside. I just don't think that new Camaro inspired dash looks good on a LaCrosse or other new GM vehicles. The Fusion and Accord dashes are too busy and the Camry is cheap and a lot of them seem to rattle accordingly. Its kind of like when toy makers do knockoffs to avoid royalty payments, but the end product just looks dumb, like a Buddy L toy truck or something. None of these cars are likley to be classics in 20 years.

cannon3 · September 2009

Explorer, I have about 45,000 trouble free, squeak free miles on my 06 Fusion SEL V6. I change my oil every 4,000 miles at the dealership. 5W-20 synthetic blend. I get discounts/coupons ect. I have put new tires on at 35,000. At 30,000 I changed the transmission fluid and anti-freeze. I plan on at 50,000 to have the brake fluid and power steering fluids changed out. I also change my air filter every 12,000. Changed fuel filter also at 30,000. Brakes are in good shape tech says. The Fusion has been a great car so far. I read on the net there are now owners with 90,000 plus miles and they are fine. I paid $21,800 for this car and its loaded. A comparable Camry/Accord would have cost me thousands more. I average 23.2 MPG per the computer. On a road trip I got 30.8 cruising at 65-70MPH per the computer. :shades:

cannon3 · September 2009

I guess we as consumers can be thankful for competition bringing us some very good family vehicles. I have been a member of Edmunds for over 10 years. At first Ford/GM and Honda/Toyota in the same sentence was unheard of. Look at now, Fusion/Milan/Malibu are true competitors with the Accord/Camry. My predictions are as follows:

In the next 5 years Malibu will become number one seller followed by Accord, Fusion, Camry, Altima, Sonata, Mazda 6. This is just sales numbers. In my book sales numbers do not mean top dog. Heck, McDonalds sells more burgers than Carls Jr. But I like Carls Jr. better..

elroy5 · September 2009

In the next 5 years Malibu will become number one seller followed by Accord, Fusion, Camry, Altima, Sonata, Mazda 6. This is just sales numbers.

May I ask, what is going to cause this drastic change, in consumer buying habits? Not saying it will never happen, but definitely not in 5 years, or 10 years. Do you know how long the Camry has been the top dog? The Camry shows no sign of weakness, and keeps the Accord sales at a considerable distance. The Camry is actually outselling full size trucks now, which hasn't ever happened before.

iluvmysephia1 · September 2009

The new Suzuki Kizashi in a shade of my favorite car color, red. I think that one of the problems designers have with mid-sizers and larger is there's just too much body to squish around. Actually, I don't think Suzuki designers have done a bad job with this car. Ford's Fusion Hybrid looks just as good, as does Kia's Optima.

I think that if I bought in this size class I'd need a package of goodies inside to entice me away from the other maker's offerings. I think the midsize category is improving year over year.

plekto · September 2009

No offense, but this is no surprise. The Camry is about as far as you can get from a firm, sporty ride, even in the midsized family sedan segment

This person needs a RX-8 in their life

Fits 4 adults, has 4 doors(technically qualifies as a sedan despite the visual trickery), and goes like a bat out of hell in twisties, and is a steal considering its $25K price.(0.1 second behind a base Cayman) A complete stealth sports sedan that nobody expects or sees coming.

acdii · September 2009

Actually, I found a complete leather kit, the same used by dealers, for $400. I can install it myself for $90 in tools and materials. So for $500 the Camry Hybrid goes up one whole package, for about $1000 less than if I bought it installed.

Lowering springs, $255, I install them myself, the body kit Roughly $800, and rims, $500. Either way I will need new tires soon, so that is not part of the equation.

Hybrids do have a higher resale, and it was an insult at this last dealer I went to offering $19000, and not budging on it. No way in hell will I allow someone else to profit $5000 off my car while I pay off $3000 over the next 5 years. I guess a $2000 profit margin isnt enough for them. I will sell it myself if it came down to it.

I figure if I spend about $2500 on it, I will have the car I actually want, and still get 38 MPG. Any other car I looked at I took a 30% hit in fuel economy, and that is what won out in the end. I sat down after getting back from the test drive, and thought over what I don't like about the car. I don't like the cloth seats, and I don't like the handling. I can live with the acceleration, it is a Hybrid, and it does get 38 MPG. So for the seats, re-upholster them, for the ride and handling, replace the springs, problem solved, the rest is just eye candy, so that my car doesn't look like the rest of the mules out there. I am even considering electric blue flames coming off the front wheels. :surprise:

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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