Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Midsize Sedans 2.0

1…252253255257258…544

Comments

  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    My vote would be for the Legacy even though it is different than all the rest by way of the standard all wheel drive.

    I totally agree about the cars to the right and on their individual pages. They change them way too quick.
    However, do a comparison on the main Edmunds page of two cars, one being the 2009 Jetta TDI. The window stickers with the EPA mpg ratings for the TDI have been out for what, a year now, and Edmunds is still researching it????? I sent them an email about it about 9 months ago and they said they were working on it.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    In case there are any manual-transmission drivers out there that have their eye on the Altima, you'd better get a '09 while you still can!

    I've seen from more than a couple sources that for '10, the Altima sedan is losing the 6-speed manual COMPLETELY! This includes the lower-model 2.5 models, and the 3.5 SE (which is named the 3.5 SR for '10). And I thought Mazda was bad for dropping the manual on their V6 models...

    This leads me to two conclusions:
    1. The 6-speed manual is returning to the Maxima! (I know, wishful thinking... :P )
    2. Nissan has given up on the "4DSC" designation for everything they sell (a shame...)
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    Could it be that people just don't want a manual anymore? Considering that automatics now exceed manuals for fuel economy, are smoother shifting and have as many if not more gears than manuals, plus they have become more reliable, that manuals are passe' in anything other than a Miata. I used to drive an 18 wheeler, and trust me, the last thing I want to do now is push a clutch in while sitting in traffic.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The majority of drivers stopped wanting manuals in sedans years ago (decades?). The fuel economy and cost advantages are gone so it's just personal preference now. Most mfrs offer it here in the U.S. because they sell more of them in other countries, especially in Europe. It would be hard to cost justify doing a manual just for the U.S. because the volume is so low.
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    I think that it's kinda fun driving a manual,but I think it depends on what manual it is.I test drove a Fit with a manual, and hated the tranny.It was hard to find the gears.When I drove an older Dodge with a 5 speed,it was a blast.
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    You know what I'm gonna say,don't you Backy.....Optima..
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Wait a minute while I sit down and catch my breath. ;)
  • dan1dan1 Member Posts: 76
    My 2 cents headlights should accent the front of a car not dominate it, the smaller they are the better. If you have dress up a boring design with goofy headlights like on the Altima (just my opinion) then you have bigger problems. Also never mistake what is in for what looks good, they are often not the same thing.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    So it looks like the last gen Maxima (which is kind of a miss) and doesn't have a manual trans option...that's not too hard to kick off my shopping list. Next...
  • design_studentdesign_student Member Posts: 2
    Thanks to everybody who responded! I've taken a lot of useful info from your comments and I'll be able to base a solid criteria around them. So thanks and I hope the American car market strengthens and grows in the near future.
    :)
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I don't know if it the size or just that they stretch back to much into the side or top of the fenders, but I don't like many current headlight designs. I want headlights to confine them mostly to the front of the car, like on the old Mazda6 or the new Fusion...same with the tailights, keep them on the rear and of the sides of the car.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    .same with the tailights, keep them on the rear and of the sides of the car.

    Uhm... where else would they be, on a mid-sized sedan? :confuse:

    Or did you mean "off" the sides of the car? I see the logic of having the tail lamps extend to the sides--allows the side markers to be integrated into the tail lamps, and maybe prevent additional holes in the body (for side markers). That's been done on cars for a long, long time.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    yeah "off"...as in not like the Altima and Mazda6 have done. Integrating side marker can be done without going as far as they have.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I got my first good look at the 2010 Legacy today. My vantage point was from above and looking at the side and rear, and a close-up look at the rear and side also. From that angle, it would be very difficult to tell the car from an Accord except for the tail lamp extensions on the trunk lid (and the Legacy badge on the trunk of course). Without those extensions, the rear would look almost identical to the Accord's. And the side is a near-duplicate also, except the Accord has the character line that runs through the door handles. The greenhouses look identical, with the BMW-esque C-pillars, and both have chrome moldings surrounding the windows. But I thought it was a handsome-looking car, in a classic, conservative way. (The fact it was black added to the conservative appearance.) Someone who doesn't like the more avant-garde styling of cars like the Mazda6 and the 2011 Sonata might prefer the Legacy's looks.

    However, be forewarned that the trunk opening is very shallow front to back--as on most sedans these days.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I saw the Outback Wagon on the road last night. I thought it was a Tribecca at first when I saw the front. Its huge. I would like to see if they made any improvements to the back seat and its child carrying capability, but so far it looks pretty blandatastc in a sea of blantastic offerings. It makes our Legacy wagon look like a 90s Civic wagon in size comparison.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, the Outback looks more like a crossover SUV now than a station wagon. Much more muscular. No longer like a wagon variant of the Legacy. The Outback looks to me like a 5/4s scale Forester--not a bad thing IMO.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    The Outback looks to me like a 5/4s scale Forester--not a bad thing IMO.

    And definitely not a bad thing for VW and Audi, that actually offer wagons, or Ford and Honda, which offer 5 seat SUVs that can more effectively compete against the new Outback.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The Passat is and was not a direct competitor of the Outback, as the Passat doesn't offer AWD. As for Ford's SUVs, yes, the Outback is now more directly against the Edge than it was before. Honda has nothing directly comparable to the Outback. The CR-V competes with the Forester, and the Pilot is an 8-passenger SUV. As for the Audi A6 wagon.... it starts at $53k. Which puts it in a totally different market than the Outback.

    Anyway... how many Passat wagons does VW sell in a year? Maybe one reason Subaru went to a SUV design for the new Outback is that they found that not many folks wanted an AWD station wagon. If they are going to buy a vehicle of that size, why not get something taller, with more cargo capacity?
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    As for Ford's SUVs, yes, the Outback is now more directly against the Edge than it was before. Honda has nothing directly comparable to the Outback. The CR-V competes with the Forester, and the Pilot is an 8-passenger SUV.

    How different are these in real life? You don't think people who look at an Outback would cross shop the CRV, or the Pilot or Odyssey for that matter?

    Anyway... how many Passat wagons does VW sell in a year? Maybe one reason Subaru went to a SUV design for the new Outback is that they found that not many folks wanted an AWD station wagon.

    How many do they have to sell? How big is the market?

    If they are going to buy a vehicle of that size, why not get something taller, with more cargo capacity?

    Of what size? If its bigger, its not the same size. And from the specs, the vehicle is taller for ground clearance, not that much taller inside. If I wanted something "taller" I would go for the Mazda5 or upcoming Grand C-max thing. Its too bad Honda did the "hatchback" with the Accord and not the wagon.

    I don't know, as an owner of an '05 Legacy wagon that we love, I think the new Outback is a miss for me.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    How different are these in real life? You don't think people who look at an Outback would cross shop the CRV, or the Pilot or Odyssey for that matter?

    Someone looking at the Outback would most likely NOT cross-shop the CR-V, which is much smaller. (If there were looking at the Forester, then yes the CR-V would be a natural comparo.) It's possible folks looking for an Outback might cross-shop the Pilot, but more likely would cross-shop other five-seat crossover SUVs like the Edge and Equinox. Someone looking for more seating would logically cross-shop the Pilot, Traverse/Acadia/Enclave, and other 7+ seat crossover SUVs. I really don't think someone shopping for an Outback would cross-shop a FWD minivan like the Odyssey. Could it happen? Sure, there's always an exception. But the Outback and minivans like the Ody are much different kinds of vehicles.

    How many do they have to sell? How big is the market?

    Exactly. Apparently not as big as the market for SUV-type crossovers. I expect Subaru and other automakers have studied the market pretty closely. How many AWD station wagons starting in the $20s are there?

    Of what size? If its bigger, its not the same size.

    I meant longer, of course.

    The Mazda5 is not available in AWD, is it? If someone wants something in AWD that's REALLY tall, they could go for a big SUV like the Travcadiclave or an AWD minivan like the Sienna (actually I think that's the only AWD minivan left).

    Better save your money for an A6, I guess. ;)
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    How many AWD station wagons starting in the $20s are there?

    That's exactly my point, now there is none. This used to be a market that Subaru owned. Now they are up against the Ford, Honda, Toyota, and GM, all that have equivalent options from a shopper's view point. I might get hit by lightning for saying this but what does the Outback have over a Venza? Or an Edge?

    Oh, I found a big one...they kept the 6 speed manual on the base model. But that probably isn't a big plus to most, and they still have to get past the Subaru "styling."
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    What does the Outback have over the Venza? Heck of a lot better looking, for one! I haven't seen a snout as ugly as the Venza's since the Aztec (well, the original Tribeca was close). And more "rugged" looking than the smooth (read boring) Edge. And, above all else... "it's a Subaru." :)

    I'm not quite sure what your complaint is, though. You said the new Outback isn't any "taller" than the old one, except for ground clearance. So I take it you just don't like how Subaru penned the new Outback?
  • jpp75jpp75 Member Posts: 1,535
    There was a new Outback behind me on the interstate today, and until it passed me I thought it was a Forester. I can't decide if I liked it or not, but it was a really cool green color.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    That's exactly my point, now there is none. This used to be a market that Subaru owned. Now they are up against the Ford, Honda, Toyota, and GM, all that have equivalent options from a shopper's view point.

    I'm sure Subaru was smart enough to know that they owned that particular (read small) market. They obviously thought it was better to have a small piece of a big pie rather than the whole mini pie. They have an all-wheel drive system that is very respected along with a good record of dependability. If they can get their styling down and their mpg up so that people that don't live in snow states will buy they might be able to get an even bigger piece of that large pie.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I'm sure Subaru was smart enough to know that they owned that particular (read small) market. They obviously thought it was better to have a small piece of a big pie rather than the whole mini pie.

    Fair enough. I realize as a vote of 1 I don't reflect the market as a whole, but big clunky jacked up station wagons don't do it for me. Something that has a low center of gravity, is fun to drive, and has a reasonable amount of power is more appealing. I enjoy driving (as terrible of a thing that is to say in this "eco-state,") and if its not fun, I am not that interested.

    They have an all-wheel drive system that is very respected along with a good record of dependability.

    While I do like the performance of their AWD, their engines are on the harsher side, especially for the amount of power they produce. Its part of being a flat-4 and I don't mind it personally, but going up against the sewing machines in Hondas and Toyotas, they might need some work.

    If they can get their styling down and their mpg up so that people that don't live in snow states will buy they might be able to get an even bigger piece of that large pie.

    People in non-snow states don't want AWD. Yes the WRX is AWD but that is a different, equally "particular" market. If Subaru offers FWD only, their mileage will go up, and they will have funny looking coarse feeling cars that have nothing to differentiate them from other alternatives.

    Trying to be all things to all people when you have a niche market is a bad strategy. Being profitable and able to charge a premium because your product is desirable enough to command it is a good strategy. BMW (a niche market specialty product that commands a premium and people pay it) vs Toyota (a commodity product with very little to differentiate it in the market).
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    People in non-snow states don't want AWD. Yes the WRX is AWD but that is a different, equally "particular" market.

    Aren't there Subaru dealerships in Texas, Florida and other southern states as well as California? I'm sure some people want them and I'm sure they aren't just selling WRXs. That's like saying nobody in a snow state wants rearwheel drive. There's always a market....albeit small.
    It will be interesting to see if Subaru steps on it's foot by leaning towards the masses with the Outback. I say leaning as I still think the Outback looks fairly distinctively "Subbie" and different from other similar size crossovers.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    image

    image

    They both have their awkward angles, but the Venza lacks the angry grin of the Subaru and has cleaner details, making it the more attractive design to my eyes.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I don't mind the styling of the Venza overall, just the grille. I don't like grilles with lots of chrome. Makes it look like something from a Buck Rogers movie. :P

    (Also your link to the photo of the Outback appears to be broken.)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Yep; worked in the preview, not in the post. Sorry. ;)

    Just a pic of the Legacy Outback. Feel free to google it.
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    Hyundai has the SantaFe too, which for the past few years has been tops in the Reliability field too. Tough competition.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I actually like the Venza better. Being associated with a Subaru dealer, and having the opportunity to drive and experience the new Outback, I cannot stand looking at it or sitting in it. It does ride nice, but, the CVT is sluggish, the interior is all hard cheap plastic, although it is put together well. The cloth fabric is a down grade from the prior model. I am actually turned off by the new Legacy-Outback design. I think it is a serious step backwards.

    Ont the other hand, they are selling really well at my store, so, I guess I am the minority in my opinion.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Sounds like Subaru is going the same de-contenting route that other automakers have taken in recent years. Compare for example the interior of the current Camry or Accord to an earlier model. There are some exceptions, though. GM, Ford, and Hyundai seem to be getting better with their mid-sized sedan interiors in recent years. I think the interior of the 2011 Sonata is stunning, and that of the Mazda6 is an improvement over the prior generation IMO.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Sounds like Subaru is going the same de-contenting route that other automakers have taken in recent years. Compare for example the interior of the current Camry or Accord to an earlier model.

    What do you mean by "de-contenting"? I have looked at the new Accords, and it looks like the same exact materials used in my 03. What was de-contented?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    IMO the interiors of older Accords and Camrys had nicer interiors--more soft plastics, richer cloth etc. I think the Accord has held up better here than the Camry, but it's happening. And it's been going on for a long time. I remember a review of a mid-90s Civic that noted Honda had cut back on threadcount on the rear seats as a cost-cutting move. And now there's hard plastic everywhere on cars.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    IMO the interiors of older Accords and Camrys had nicer interiors--more soft plastics, richer cloth etc. I think the Accord has held up better here than the Camry, but it's happening.
    The 92 Accord I had didn't have better materials than the 03 I have now. The dash was soft, almost spongy, but those dashes were also known to crack, if not taken care of. The sun shade used to make little dents in the dash. The carpet, and floor mats, are the only things I can say might not be as thick now. I think the interior in my 03 interior fits together better, and more securely than the 92 did though. The materials may have been softer, but not more durable or higher quality imo. Softer doesn't necessarily mean better.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Maybe not. But I'll take soft-touch plastic rather than the hard, scratchable stuff in common use today anytime. My 2004 Elantra has soft-touch panels almost everywhere except the lower doors and around the glovebox. Now you're lucky to get padded armrests. :(
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I think my '93 held together very well, I didn't have any fading or cracking. My '07 has a hard plastic dash with several different materials and grains that all seem to be fading at different rates. Also, the black dash of the '93 combined with that windshield angle didn't have the veiling glare effect of the '07.
    I do remember the paint wearing off the radio buttons on the '93, and I think some of the steering wheel controls for cruise did that as well. After 15 years I am okay with that...ideally i won't have this one that long though :P
    Oh Elroy, what do you put on the weatherstripping for the doors to help it seal and not rattle? There was a Honda fluid or spray or something for that, IIRC.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    That was weird, I'm not sure what happened. Did anyone else recently try go to this "Midsize Sedans 2.0" discussion and somehow end up in forum about pseudo-SUVs?
    ;)
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    Good one, jeffyscott. :D
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Were you referring to the wagon variant of the Legacy sedan?

    If that's a problem, maybe we could go back and delete all the posts about the upcoming Honda Crosstour, the Venza, the Mazda6 wagon, and similar posts, as well as posts about RX-8s etc. etc. Since some of those are yours, maybe you could start it off?

    :)
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Oh Elroy, what do you put on the weatherstripping for the doors to help it seal and not rattle? There was a Honda fluid or spray or something for that, IIRC.

    I have never had a problem with the 03's doors. The passenger side front door on my 92 used to stick though. The windows on the 03 had started to squeak a few months back, and I used the Shin-Etsu grease that Honda sells for seals and window tracks. I remember seeing a TSB about how to apply the grease to the door seals, but doubt if I could find it again. I remember it said something about using pipe cleaners to grease the inside of the door seals. I thought that was odd. I have not had any problem with rattles or fading, and my car sits outside in the sun all day. They've fixed a lot of the roads where I live, so there's not much to make a rattle I guess. The dash on my 92 never cracked, but I've seen many of those old sunken dashes that did crack. The only part of my 92 interior I had a slight problem with was the hard plastic around the door switches. Some of those pieces didn't fit together that well, and seemed to fade quicker than the other pieces around it.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    The windows on the 03 had started to squeak a few months back, and I used the Shin-Etsu grease that Honda sells for seals and window tracks. I remember seeing a TSB about how to apply the grease to the door seals, but doubt if I could find it again. I remember it said something about using pipe cleaners to grease the inside of the door seals. I thought that was odd.

    Thanks for looking that up...totally comical. I will let my Honda dealer take care of it.

    I have not had any problem with rattles or fading, and my car sits outside in the sun all day.

    They were mis-matched and had bad surfaces when I bought it, I just didn't notice it in time. I think that is one of the reasons I think the old Accord was higher quality, the dash only had one uniform continuous surface while the new one has 4 or 5, all with different tolerances.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    "Were you referring to the wagon variant of the Legacy sedan?"

    Not if it is a normal wagon and not a "crossover". ;)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    What is a normal wagon? That which we call a wagon by any other name would carry as much stuff.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    The Outback certainly started out as a jacked-up Legacy wagon--arguably fair game for this forum, as it was originally called the "Legacy Outback." Certainly it bore as much relationship to the Legacy as the Crosstour does to the Accord. Perhaps not strictly a sedan, but clearly part of the same model line.

    But the new Outback appears to have made the leap to something fundamentally different--a crossover, for lack of a more descriptive term. It's no longer a Legacy--and in my opinion, no longer a midsize sedan.

    The Legacy, on the other hand, certainly is a midsize sedan--now more than ever. It's also potentially one of the best, even if purists feel that it (like the Outback) has lost some of its distinctive character in the latest redesign.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I think the operative word here is "sedan". A sedan is not a stationwagon, crossover, hatchback, fastback, hardtop, SUV or convertible. If one wants to literally and technically stick to topic we are all guilty.
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    Much the same as calling a Prius a Midsize sedan. :shades:
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, I heard the sound of glass breaking. :)
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Besides the outback, they did also have a Legacy wagon that was just a wagon:

    image
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Besides the outback, they did also have a Legacy wagon that was just a wagon:

    Yeah I hear those are pretty good... :P :blush:
Sign In or Register to comment.

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles