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Comments
I think Hyundai spiked your Kool aid. What do you mean by "displace"? If you think the Sonata will out-sell the Camry, you're NUTS! The Sonata will not out-sell the Altima, much less Camry or Accord.
The Lexus and Sonata are not competing for sales. If he meant the Optima will out-sell the Camry, that's even nutiser.
2010 Mazda 6: Still a top choice for my next vehicle purchase (later this spring), although it's gotten vastly more complicated (more on that later). A vast improvement over my '04 in just about everything. Some don't care for the new styling, but I've grown to really like it. Interior fit-and-finish and quality has also improved, and the controls are still easy to figure out and use. Strangely, there was no V6 model on the lot, so no test-drive today (although I've already had two others over the past year).
2010 Nissan Altima: The front end reskin is okay, but the cutouts for the optional fog lights look even cheaper than the '07-'09 models. The headlamps and grille are tweaked, but there's no other changes. Interiors are the same except for the new cloth seats, which have a similar material to my '07, but the inserts are vastly superior and look more durable.
2010 VW Jetta: It's in need of a update, and it shows against the others I've seen today. I didn't spend too much time looking, because I was actually checking out the...
2010 VW GTI: It may not be an "official" midsize offering, but it's a sharp-looking vehicle all the same. The "plaid" seats are still cool, as they were when the GTI first showed up on these shores. Excellent ergonomics, and the interior (as with all other VW's) has great fit-and-finish and materials.
I then walked over to the Ford dealer, and managed to find the lone 2010 Fusion Sport (Sangria Red with black interior), along with about 5 SELs and 5 SE's. The exterior styling is purely subjective, but I love it. It's as angular as my '04 Mazda6, but it's IMO more modern. The Sport-only side sills and rear bumper are nicely done, and the rear spoiler is subtle but striking. The 5-spoke wheels are nicely done, with "sport" written on the hubs. That, and the badge on the trunklid, have a small red "stripe" on both sides. Subtle, but distinctive.
The interior is a HUGE improvement over the last-gen Fusion, and IMO one of the best in class styling-wise. The gauges have white lettering and markings over a blue background that "glows" from the center of the needles outward, a nice touch and very easy to read quickly. The dash is nicely finished, as well as the steering wheel with fingertip controls. I can see why some are complaining about the HVAC controls being low in the center console, but I could get used to them easily. The more-utilized radio controls are easy to find and use, and the SYNC system is simply excellent.
Then I got behind the wheel for a quick test-drive (about 1/2 hour) on the highway, a couple two-lanes, and through some village streets. Two words: surprising, and excellent. The 3.5L V6 and 6-speed auto gets up and goes, even quicker than my Mazda V6 and stick shift. The power is both smooth and addicting, and the automatic works well with the V6. The manumatic controls should be used by every other automaker (pull back for upshifts, forward for downshifts, none of this side-to-side garbage). The engine is smooth and quiet, but has a nice growl with a tip of the throttle. Highway ride is superb, slightly firm, but not jarring, with excellent steering feel and ride. The interior is actually TOO quiet, 55 MPH on a two-lane backroad seems as if I'm doing 30. Braking is also great, with easy modulation. I'd love to get more time behind the wheel, but I'm impressed.
After all that, the Mazda6 isn't my only choice anymore, and I have a feeling I'll be having a few sleepless nights figuring out whether to stick with Mazda, or go back to a domestic with a truly excellent midsize sport sedan called the Fusion.
More to come...
Disclaimer: the preceding was MHO. Deal with it. :P
to me the low in the center stack climate controls are not a big deal.
it has automatic climate control, so you may never touch those other buttons, although i never use that function.
The statement above is gonna need an explanation for this padre or I not only won't get your post but I also won't get backy's response back to your post either, mz6greyghost. :sick:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
It just seemed that most of us has taken differing opinions a little too seriously lately (see the 4-cylinder vs. V-6 posts for an excellent example). Then I make a light-hearted comment like that, and I STILL get some heat. Geez, if I wanted the abuse, I'd be talking to my mother-in-law, not posting on a car forum...
Your MIL probably would criticize you for buying a V6 when (*bonk!*) you could've had a V8.
Yesterday I was on my way to go work on a 95 Grand Marquis that I am giving a new paint job. On this lonely stretch of road out in the country where I can see for miles, I decided to open it up and see what it can do.
1/2 throttle, and 8 seconds later, from 55 I hit 110 and it wanted to keep going, I still had 6th gear left to go. The car stayed glued to the road, so when I looked down at the speedometer and saw 110 I was surprised I was going that fast. I hit the brakes at that point and quickly brought the car back down to 60 without any squirrelyness, it slowed down nice and straight. Needless to say I had a huge grin on my face after that quick little ride. I called my wife right away and said, you know that Fusion we bought, she asked me, yes, as in what happened to it, I told her, it goes to 110 really easy, and hung up. :P :shades: Imagine what the car will do with a program and a turbo!
There remain persistent rumors of a Fusion SVT in the works, to be powered by the 3.5 EcoBoost engine from the Taurus SHO (365 hp). If it happens, sign me up!
The latest rumor I've heard is that it won't but until the next-gen Fusion comes out (in 2012-2013), the "SVT Fusion GT" will have the EcoBoost V6 and AWD, and will be built on the Mondeo platform.
for you thats great.
As far as trying to compare a V6 to a V8 that is a whole lot more
lopsided than the I4 to the V6 or V8. Take the Cadillac CTS-V it
just barely makes it in the EPA rated midsize class with a total
interior volume of 112 cu ft (Sonata has 121.8 cu ft) here's the
killer 556HP @ 6100 RPM & 551 ft lbs tourque @ 3800 RPM.
But with that kind of power the MPG's are terrible "16 combined".
CTS V is also @ the top of the class w/ 3.8 0-60 plus or minus.
The cadillac was only mentioned as a reference it is not on my
wish list.
The Passat was also brought into the discussion because of the
I4 turbo which may be used in the 2011 Sonata. But since some
of the specs were mentioned I would like to add a few details that
were not brought to light. This is listed on Edmunds and a Consumer
Guide Road Test, 2009 Passat I4 turbo 200HP. Road test MPG
19.6 overall w/a 26.9 Hiway thats a far cry from the actual Real
World mpg of the Sonata V6. I don't have to drive in bumper to
bumper traffic to much and we live on the outskirts of town, I have
not calculated less than 26.6mpg and have had a 2000 mile road
trip that came out over 31, thats a 2009 SE V6.
The total HP & the total torque available is just that the total, If
it is needed it's there, when I have to get out of the way of stupid
drivers 6000 RPM's is not a factor, not even close to "redline".
By the way the Passat is smaller than the Sonata also. 110 cu ft
total interior space, recommended premium fuel and the MSRP
on the base model is over $4000. more than the Sonata SE V6.
I don't know what the 2011 Sonata has in store as far as engine
choice but the exterior sure looks good, IMO.
http://www.suzukiauto.com/kizashi/?r=left#/home
Base S with 6-speed MT is $19,734--comparable to some competitors, but the Kizashi has some standard equipment that competitor's base models don't have such as dual-zone auto climate control, hands-free entry with pushbutton start, and eight airbags. Also the base engine is 185 hp, which is highest in the class for a base model right now except the considerably more expensive Passat. And AWD is available also.
I noticed the CVT is $1500 more--which seems steep to me.
The more I look at this car, the more I like it. It's on the small side for a mid-sizer, which I think is a plus. Safety should be exceptional, with available AWD and all the airbags--Suzuki says it meets 2014 crash standards. The interior looks sharp, especially the blacked-out center console, which is a nice change of pace from all the grey/silver/woodtone plastic in most other mid-sized sedans.
Exterior-wise, I still think the side styling is "same-old, same-old" especially the C-pillar, but the front end is clean and aggressive, and the rear has some nice touches such as the trapezoidal exhaust ports and the prominent lip spoiler.
But it's a very tough market, with many excellent choices plus the all-new 2011 Sonata coming soon. Will this be the start of something big for Suzuki, or their death knell?
EPA-estimated 22/32 mpg on the city/highway and 25 mpg in combined driving — though under our enthusiastic right feet, we only managed to squeeze 20 mpg out of our test car.
http://www.edmunds.com/hyundai/sonata/2009/testdrive.html
The EPA numbers are a valid comparison of what the two cars will get when driven in the same way.
a Passat (or the equal) to use as a comparison. The Passat is
smaller and has a smaller engine so in theory it should get a
better rating on the mpg, but the heavy foot will make a big
difference. I had no reason to question the real world mpg on the
Passat like you said it's meaningless since everyone has a
different driving pattern. According to EPA the Passat I4 turbo
is rated 19-29/ 23 combined, as per mpg.gov
So that makes your "real world mpg" on the Sonata SE V6 meaningless as well. That's why we usually stick to EPA numbers for comparison purposes because, to my knowledge, all the cars are tested the same...not real world....but the same.
There is usually a thread in each of the individual car forums that let members report their real world mpg experience.
Also, my nephew(an auto mechanic who drives Suzukis) tells me that Suzuki is the second best seller in Japan I think he said just below Toyota but ahead of Honda. That's based on a conversation last year so I stand ready to be corrected.
got in to the picture, the engine in the Passat was used as a reference as to
what may be coming in the 2011 Sonata, only speculation.
This thread is about midsize sedans, and fuel consumption (MPG) happens
to come up rather often, EPA and actual or "real world" whatever.
Man, does it seem like people have chips on their shoulders lately or what? Maybe it's the holidays.
shoulder, not my intentions at all. Sometimes I may go overboard
trying to justify a view. I have left some posts on the "real world
mpg". Thanks for the info. I didn't mean to impose my opinion on
anyone, I tried to add some sources of credible info but much of
it is also opinion.
Happy holidays to everyone!
This is Suzuki's biggest challenge in this country, as well as their very lean dealer network coast to coast.
got in to the picture
Me neither, but it did...
Anyway, it did lead to the interesting discovery that the DSG can apparently result in a 2 mpg increase.
On a completely different topic, I got the Motor Trend that has the Fusion COTY. I noticed that the Fusion on the cover had a body colored grill. Since I am not a fan of chrome, I did some investigating. Apparently they have a "monotone package" that includes that body colored grill plus a "sport-tuned suspension", 18 inch alloys, and more.
Not sure I'd want the 18 inchers, but the car looks much better to me without the chrome grill.
Fanboi dreaming...
This is impossible next year or the year after or the year after that. Why? Hyundai doesn't have the capacity to build 450,000 units nor do they have the sales organization to sell that many units.
You're also assuming that everyone else simply sits still and allows this to occur. That'll never happen.
Toyota got caught napping with both the current Camry and Corolla. It will be interesting to see how long it takes the company to awaken, and what it will come up with when/if it really does.
I don't disagree with the first paragraph because I agree that you can throw a blanket over the entire segment. Choose any one and be happy.
But then you added the last sentences above and just made yourself look silly. Caught napping? How is it the No 1 nameplate in the segment continues to hold that title for the last 5 yrs running and and then ...and then... according to Edmunds here last month became the No 1 nameplate in the entire US auto industry. And you seriously think that this is being 'caught napping'.
Helloo...all the rest of the industry would love to be caught napping like that. Your testosterone might have gotten the best of you there don't you think? Buwahahaha.
I know, I know this is another of those ... 'I don't know how they do it but they have these two blandmobiles that are barely in the middle of the pack in every respect....for the car guys....but the public somehow continues to confuse us by snapping them up faster than every other vehicle. Just can't figure it out.'
Toyota vowed to make major changes, starting with top mgt, in an effort to win back customers that are looking elsewhere for ingenuity.
Toyota must get back on track very quickly because they are widely perceived as a Japanese Buick.
The Camry seems to have plenty of "leeway". They have a sizeable lead in sales over the field. They would have to really screw up, to loose that kind of lead. I don't see that happening. I don't see the Accord slipping any time soon either. "Trample them", I don't think so. Not any time soon.
There may be more fun and better looking cars out there but for the near term I don't see anyone making a serious run at supremacy from those two.
One caveat: Toyota's recent bad safety news and recalls coupled with a general sense of lacking focus on quality could move Honda closer and give others inroads to increase market share but not supremacy.
If VW could solve their quality problems and really turn their perception around they could be a juggernaut to contend with. A lot of people like their styling, performance, handling, interior quality but hang back due to not wanting to experience the horror stories that many have with their vehicles.
That's just it. American car buyers were virtually forced to try other brands. And it only seems natural they would have to be forced to go back. Seems fair to me. I don't see Honda or Toyota making any mistakes that big. To say any midsize sedan will outsell the Camry, in the next 10 years, would be unrealistic.
This. I'm car shopping now and was/is very interested in a VW Jetta. But I'm still skittish about reliability and potential cost once it is out of warranty. And the TDI is very appealing but there have also been plenty of stories about VW dealers not servicing them right (overfilling oil or not using the right oil) during the carefree maintenance period. On the other hand I really liked the handling and interior quality. A lot.
As it is I'm probably going to end up choosing between a Ford Fusion or a Mazda 3 hatchback.
By "quality", what is more specifically meant is mechanical reliability.
In, I believe, the Dec. 2009 issue, CR has listed the VW Golf as among the most reliable small cars. The Jetta is mechanically the same car, but has been getting lower, but still above average, reliability scores from CR. Neither is a midsize, however.
But yes I agree that they grew too fast here especially as they were looking to cash in on the mega-bucks in the truck/SUV segments. The money in these segments made for fat happy and dumb players. When you're used to making $2000 on a sedan and suddenly you see $10000, $15000 and $20000 profits on SUVs and trucks it's like a drug; c.f. the Detroit 3. They must get off that easy money high and get back to concentrating on making most of their money from $20000-$25000 vehicles.
But that's a different segment. In the sedans they continue to kick butt and take names. The Camry is approaching the No 1 nameplate every month. It's jumped over the the Silverado and it's going after the F150. The Corolla is simply crushing the Civic. Everybody else is a distant 3rd thru 10th place. This is not being caught napping. This is kicking butt month-after-month-after-month.
However they might be perceived the one metric that counts is sales volume. Anything else gets the winner a beauty pagaent crown.....and 2nd thru 10th place where it counts. BTW this conversation isn't new this year. It's been going on for at least 10 yrs and no one can figure out how and why Camry and Corolla sales stay as high as they are month-after-month-after-month.
It's because it's a business not a beauty pagaent.
elroy5:
That is what happened to me with Honda. I spent $75,000 since 2005 on new Honda cars and had numerous issue's with all of them. Somewhere along the way Honda started to give me flash backs to the GM customer service like Oh those rear brakes only lasted 20,000 miles well thats normal wear yep thats it, normal wear. With all the recalls Toyota is having I don't feel like they are any better so I picked the Fusion. The only good thing I can say about Honda is the resell value is very high compared to others. Ford screwed its resell value back in the day on the Taurus because of its Hertz rental car business. If you look back on the reliability ratings those old Taurus's did very well in the reliability ratings. With the competition as tight as it is in the sedan segment it will be interesting to see how those companies can promote the resell value.
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We need to get you on Toyota's BOD! That would just about insure the competition's success.
It's a lot easier to get to the top than it is to stay there................
a) initiate give away programs like Employee Pricing for Everyone ( Please take these vehicles ! )
b) massive fleet sales at breakeven pricing.
Both prongs skewered the retail buyers and drove down the resale prices.
Hopefully in the reorganizations this year the D3, along with the rest of the industry, will learn how to balance production and demand. This alone will eliminate the need to give away the vehicles thus drive up resale prices. However it also means that on the retail side the makers are going to try to get higher prices from the everyday buyer.
In this they have a long row to hoe. Toyota's and Honda's normally sell for $1000-$2000 more than the typical D3 midsizer or a Hyundai/Kia. Think about how that affects resale prices and how that affects the profitability of each maker.
400,000 units x $1000.....
Well, to be honest, only Honda and Toyota can promote high resale because they are the two that stand at the top. They are followed by Subaru, Nissan, VW and Mazda. Then we have Hyundai, Ford, Chevy and Kia. This is how they play out in the wholesale world.
I have noticed Honda's, particularly the Accord, has a stupid high book value and it is very common to get retail money from a wholesaler.
Now, there are many good cars on this list. Unfortunately, being a good car is not going to automatically put you at the top with Honda and Toyota. Take the Sonata for example. You can buy a new one so cheap it hurts the resale value. Why do you think Hyundai promotes rebates and special financing and not leasing? Because they wither away to nothing very fast.
Nissan and Mazda have really tried to boost their resale value of the Altima and Mazda6, but, have struggled to do so. I think those two cars are more impressive then both the Accord and Camry, by a long shot.
Subaru has done a great job with the Legacy. Subaru is really on a roll lately, and they seemed to have figured out something and are running with it. Personally, I am really turned off by the new Legacy. I think it became cheap and very uninspiring to drive. Add ugly to boot.
Ford has done a wonderful job with their recent ad campaign with the Fusion, as well as the rest of their lineup. They are really getting people to think American again. I drove a new Fusion myself, and I really do not like the interior. It just does not do it for me. The outer styling is nice, and conservative at the same time. The power train is good, and I would not hesitate to buy one based on that. But, it will be quite sometime before the resale can be a factor.
The Malibu resale will continue to get destroyed as long as Chevy keeps pumping mass units into rental service. I think they put waaaaay to many into rental service and it will hurt overall reliability and resale. Ford was smart and scaled back rentals, as did Mazda.
The big reason why I don't see any of the others taking over the top spot is that there is no trend in either the Camry or Corolla that they are losing sales, in fact they seem to be solidifying their position on the top spots. Outside of that the other makers simply don't have the capacity to suddenly double production and sales. Where would these new Malibu's come from? How could Hermosillo jump it's production by more than 50% suddenly ( 'suddenly' is 5 yrs in auto production terms ). The Accord is maxxed out in Marysville. Hyundai simply doesn't have the distribution network to move that many vehicles.
This assumes also that both Toyota and Honda stand still and do nothing.
What has happened is that the bottom-dwellers, except for Chrysler, have improved dramatically so that the separation from top to bottom is very very small. This is good for all of us buying vehicles in this segment.
(car sales only not trucks or suv's etc)
maker tot. sales % 2009 v's 2008 % sales f/ oct. 2009 market share
GM 731,434 -33.2 -11.4 8.5
FORD 491,997 -16.8 -10.7 5.7
TOY 913,515 -24.0 +1.5 10.6
HONDA 599,429 -23.6 -3.7 6.9
NISSAN 429,866 -18.2 +1.8 5.0
HYUNDAI 282,443 +55.8 +55.9 3.3
MAZDA 121,478 -22.2 -1.2 1.4
CHRYSLER 187,308 -47.6 -29.7 2.2
SUZUKI 3,774 -81.0 -99.5 ?
VW 149,187 -16.0 +15.8 1.7
There are many more listed, this is just a few.
online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html
After the car maker is the total sales for the 2009 year, the next number is
the percentage of sales compared to 2008, example (GM is -33.2) the next
figure is the sales for October 2009, example (FORD is +10.7) and last is
their % of US market share f/ 2009 sales. All of this is on the web site listed.
Legacy sales are also up, at +14.5%.