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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    The 2011 Hyundai Sonata and Kia Optima are set to displace the Lexus ES350 and Toyota Camry next year. It will be fun to watch.

    I think Hyundai spiked your Kool aid. What do you mean by "displace"? If you think the Sonata will out-sell the Camry, you're NUTS! The Sonata will not out-sell the Altima, much less Camry or Accord.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Well, will it outsell that Lexus and if so, does that mean it has "displaced" it? ;)
  • choppedntubbedchoppedntubbed Member Posts: 39
    I think it is time for you to change your name to "hyundaiman07"! :)
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Well, will it outsell that Lexus and if so, does that mean it has "displaced" it?

    The Lexus and Sonata are not competing for sales. If he meant the Optima will out-sell the Camry, that's even nutiser.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Today, I went to the local auto supercenter (a place with multiple auto dealers in one location) for the Mazda dealer's "official" 2010 introduction party (yes, they've been around for a couple months, but whatever.) After attending the festivities, a friend and I walked the grounds, looking at the other dealers offerings, and found the following:

    2010 Mazda 6: Still a top choice for my next vehicle purchase (later this spring), although it's gotten vastly more complicated (more on that later). A vast improvement over my '04 in just about everything. Some don't care for the new styling, but I've grown to really like it. Interior fit-and-finish and quality has also improved, and the controls are still easy to figure out and use. Strangely, there was no V6 model on the lot, so no test-drive today (although I've already had two others over the past year).

    2010 Nissan Altima: The front end reskin is okay, but the cutouts for the optional fog lights look even cheaper than the '07-'09 models. The headlamps and grille are tweaked, but there's no other changes. Interiors are the same except for the new cloth seats, which have a similar material to my '07, but the inserts are vastly superior and look more durable.

    2010 VW Jetta: It's in need of a update, and it shows against the others I've seen today. I didn't spend too much time looking, because I was actually checking out the...

    2010 VW GTI: It may not be an "official" midsize offering, but it's a sharp-looking vehicle all the same. The "plaid" seats are still cool, as they were when the GTI first showed up on these shores. Excellent ergonomics, and the interior (as with all other VW's) has great fit-and-finish and materials.

    I then walked over to the Ford dealer, and managed to find the lone 2010 Fusion Sport (Sangria Red with black interior), along with about 5 SELs and 5 SE's. The exterior styling is purely subjective, but I love it. It's as angular as my '04 Mazda6, but it's IMO more modern. The Sport-only side sills and rear bumper are nicely done, and the rear spoiler is subtle but striking. The 5-spoke wheels are nicely done, with "sport" written on the hubs. That, and the badge on the trunklid, have a small red "stripe" on both sides. Subtle, but distinctive.

    The interior is a HUGE improvement over the last-gen Fusion, and IMO one of the best in class styling-wise. The gauges have white lettering and markings over a blue background that "glows" from the center of the needles outward, a nice touch and very easy to read quickly. The dash is nicely finished, as well as the steering wheel with fingertip controls. I can see why some are complaining about the HVAC controls being low in the center console, but I could get used to them easily. The more-utilized radio controls are easy to find and use, and the SYNC system is simply excellent.

    Then I got behind the wheel for a quick test-drive (about 1/2 hour) on the highway, a couple two-lanes, and through some village streets. Two words: surprising, and excellent. The 3.5L V6 and 6-speed auto gets up and goes, even quicker than my Mazda V6 and stick shift. The power is both smooth and addicting, and the automatic works well with the V6. The manumatic controls should be used by every other automaker (pull back for upshifts, forward for downshifts, none of this side-to-side garbage). The engine is smooth and quiet, but has a nice growl with a tip of the throttle. Highway ride is superb, slightly firm, but not jarring, with excellent steering feel and ride. The interior is actually TOO quiet, 55 MPH on a two-lane backroad seems as if I'm doing 30. Braking is also great, with easy modulation. I'd love to get more time behind the wheel, but I'm impressed.

    After all that, the Mazda6 isn't my only choice anymore, and I have a feeling I'll be having a few sleepless nights figuring out whether to stick with Mazda, or go back to a domestic with a truly excellent midsize sport sedan called the Fusion.

    More to come... :)

    Disclaimer: the preceding was MHO. Deal with it. :P
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    after you review of the fusion, as an owner of an '07, i hate you. :)
    to me the low in the center stack climate controls are not a big deal.
    it has automatic climate control, so you may never touch those other buttons, although i never use that function.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Thanks for the excellent review, especially all the details on the Fusion Sport. It would have been a lot better without the comment at the end. :(
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    Disclaimer: the preceding was MHO. Deal with it.

    The statement above is gonna need an explanation for this padre or I not only won't get your post but I also won't get backy's response back to your post either, mz6greyghost. :sick:

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    Huh??????
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    MHO - My Humble Opinion.
  • cannon3cannon3 Member Posts: 296
    As a proud owner of an 06 Fusion SEL V6... I hate you too! Makes me want to run down and buy the 2010 right now. But the wife is up next for a new vehicle. With the kids being older, 1 having their own car I no longer need this large of a vehicle. I am patiently waiting for the 2011 Focus :). I have to say, this 06 is a great vehicle.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    I had a feeling it wasn't gonna be deep-I just had to ask. ;)

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Deep? On this site? Naahh... :)

    It just seemed that most of us has taken differing opinions a little too seriously lately (see the 4-cylinder vs. V-6 posts for an excellent example). Then I make a light-hearted comment like that, and I STILL get some heat. Geez, if I wanted the abuse, I'd be talking to my mother-in-law, not posting on a car forum...
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    It just seemed that most of us has taken differing opinions a little too seriously lately (see the 4-cylinder vs. V-6 posts for an excellent example). Then I make a light-hearted comment like that, and I STILL get some heat. Geez, if I wanted the abuse, I'd be talking to my mother-in-law, not posting on a car forum...

    Your MIL probably would criticize you for buying a V6 when (*bonk!*) you could've had a V8.

    image

    :)
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    Hopefully another convert! ;) I have a 2010 Sport in Sport Blue. I have 5200 on it in two months, and LOVE the car. If you think it is quiet at 55, try it at 110MPH, just as quiet, and holds the road amazingly well.

    Yesterday I was on my way to go work on a 95 Grand Marquis that I am giving a new paint job. On this lonely stretch of road out in the country where I can see for miles, I decided to open it up and see what it can do.

    1/2 throttle, and 8 seconds later, from 55 I hit 110 and it wanted to keep going, I still had 6th gear left to go. The car stayed glued to the road, so when I looked down at the speedometer and saw 110 I was surprised I was going that fast. I hit the brakes at that point and quickly brought the car back down to 60 without any squirrelyness, it slowed down nice and straight. Needless to say I had a huge grin on my face after that quick little ride. I called my wife right away and said, you know that Fusion we bought, she asked me, yes, as in what happened to it, I told her, it goes to 110 really easy, and hung up. :P :shades: Imagine what the car will do with a program and a turbo!
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    Imagine what the car will do with a program and a turbo!

    There remain persistent rumors of a Fusion SVT in the works, to be powered by the 3.5 EcoBoost engine from the Taurus SHO (365 hp). If it happens, sign me up!
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    There remain persistent rumors of a Fusion SVT in the works, to be powered by the 3.5 EcoBoost engine from the Taurus SHO (365 hp). If it happens, sign me up!

    The latest rumor I've heard is that it won't but until the next-gen Fusion comes out (in 2012-2013), the "SVT Fusion GT" will have the EcoBoost V6 and AWD, and will be built on the Mondeo platform.
  • 8babies1dog8babies1dog Member Posts: 122
    the "sufficient" refers to an individuals wants and needs, if it's good
    for you thats great.

    As far as trying to compare a V6 to a V8 that is a whole lot more
    lopsided than the I4 to the V6 or V8. Take the Cadillac CTS-V it
    just barely makes it in the EPA rated midsize class with a total
    interior volume of 112 cu ft (Sonata has 121.8 cu ft) here's the
    killer 556HP @ 6100 RPM & 551 ft lbs tourque @ 3800 RPM.
    But with that kind of power the MPG's are terrible "16 combined".
    CTS V is also @ the top of the class w/ 3.8 0-60 plus or minus.
    The cadillac was only mentioned as a reference it is not on my
    wish list.

    The Passat was also brought into the discussion because of the
    I4 turbo which may be used in the 2011 Sonata. But since some
    of the specs were mentioned I would like to add a few details that
    were not brought to light. This is listed on Edmunds and a Consumer
    Guide Road Test, 2009 Passat I4 turbo 200HP. Road test MPG
    19.6 overall w/a 26.9 Hiway thats a far cry from the actual Real
    World mpg of the Sonata V6. I don't have to drive in bumper to
    bumper traffic to much and we live on the outskirts of town, I have
    not calculated less than 26.6mpg and have had a 2000 mile road
    trip that came out over 31, thats a 2009 SE V6.

    The total HP & the total torque available is just that the total, If
    it is needed it's there, when I have to get out of the way of stupid
    drivers 6000 RPM's is not a factor, not even close to "redline".
    By the way the Passat is smaller than the Sonata also. 110 cu ft
    total interior space, recommended premium fuel and the MSRP
    on the base model is over $4000. more than the Sonata SE V6.

    I don't know what the 2011 Sonata has in store as far as engine
    choice but the exterior sure looks good, IMO.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    FYI, there's a site with lots of details on the new Suzuki Kizashi, including a "build your own" section--sans pricing. :( But pricing is available at Edmunds.com.

    http://www.suzukiauto.com/kizashi/?r=left#/home

    Base S with 6-speed MT is $19,734--comparable to some competitors, but the Kizashi has some standard equipment that competitor's base models don't have such as dual-zone auto climate control, hands-free entry with pushbutton start, and eight airbags. Also the base engine is 185 hp, which is highest in the class for a base model right now except the considerably more expensive Passat. And AWD is available also.

    I noticed the CVT is $1500 more--which seems steep to me.

    The more I look at this car, the more I like it. It's on the small side for a mid-sizer, which I think is a plus. Safety should be exceptional, with available AWD and all the airbags--Suzuki says it meets 2014 crash standards. The interior looks sharp, especially the blacked-out center console, which is a nice change of pace from all the grey/silver/woodtone plastic in most other mid-sized sedans.

    Exterior-wise, I still think the side styling is "same-old, same-old" especially the C-pillar, but the front end is clean and aggressive, and the rear has some nice touches such as the trapezoidal exhaust ports and the prominent lip spoiler.

    But it's a very tough market, with many excellent choices plus the all-new 2011 Sonata coming soon. Will this be the start of something big for Suzuki, or their death knell?
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    If you are comparing your personal "real world" mpg in the Sonata V6 to what edmunds got in the Passat in their road test, that is pretty much meaningless. Edmunds drives the cars it tests very hard. For example they reported 20 mpg in an I4 Sonata:

    EPA-estimated 22/32 mpg on the city/highway and 25 mpg in combined driving — though under our enthusiastic right feet, we only managed to squeeze 20 mpg out of our test car.

    http://www.edmunds.com/hyundai/sonata/2009/testdrive.html

    The EPA numbers are a valid comparison of what the two cars will get when driven in the same way.
  • 8babies1dog8babies1dog Member Posts: 122
    The reason I listed the mpg we get on ours is for anyone that has
    a Passat (or the equal) to use as a comparison. The Passat is
    smaller and has a smaller engine so in theory it should get a
    better rating on the mpg, but the heavy foot will make a big
    difference. I had no reason to question the real world mpg on the
    Passat like you said it's meaningless since everyone has a
    different driving pattern. According to EPA the Passat I4 turbo
    is rated 19-29/ 23 combined, as per mpg.gov
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I had no reason to question the real world mpg on the Passat like you said it's meaningless since everyone has a different driving pattern.

    So that makes your "real world mpg" on the Sonata SE V6 meaningless as well. That's why we usually stick to EPA numbers for comparison purposes because, to my knowledge, all the cars are tested the same...not real world....but the same.

    There is usually a thread in each of the individual car forums that let members report their real world mpg experience.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I'd like to see a comparison between the Legacy I4 CVT vs. Kizashi I4 CVT. I'm still not a fan of the CVT but the reviews of the one in the new Legacy have been very good. I think it uses steel bands which seems to make a big difference in how it feels.

    Also, my nephew(an auto mechanic who drives Suzukis) tells me that Suzuki is the second best seller in Japan I think he said just below Toyota but ahead of Honda. That's based on a conversation last year so I stand ready to be corrected.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    At fueleconomy.gov the 2010 Passat is at 22/31 and 25 combined, Apparently they improved by 2-3 mpg over 2009, which was at 19/29/23, as you indicated.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I think they added the DSG tranny which increased the mpg....at least they did on the CC.
  • 8babies1dog8babies1dog Member Posts: 122
    I'm not sure how the MPG comparison between the Passat and the Sonata
    got in to the picture, the engine in the Passat was used as a reference as to
    what may be coming in the 2011 Sonata, only speculation.

    This thread is about midsize sedans, and fuel consumption (MPG) happens
    to come up rather often, EPA and actual or "real world" whatever.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    You brought up the comparison and it was simply questioned as to validity. Wasn't suggesting that we don't talk about mpg here....we do it all the time. Just wanted to let you know that real world mpg is discussed in detail on other threads in case you didn't know. Not inferring that we don't talk about it here.

    Man, does it seem like people have chips on their shoulders lately or what? Maybe it's the holidays.
  • 8babies1dog8babies1dog Member Posts: 122
    I'm sorry if I'm guilty of causing you think I have a chip on my
    shoulder, not my intentions at all. Sometimes I may go overboard
    trying to justify a view. I have left some posts on the "real world
    mpg". Thanks for the info. I didn't mean to impose my opinion on
    anyone, I tried to add some sources of credible info but much of
    it is also opinion.

    Happy holidays to everyone!
  • colloquorcolloquor Member Posts: 482
    Suzuki is a very big seller in Japan. Their Japanese-built vehicles have generally always been good. But, and this is a very big drawback, their resale value is absolutely horrendous, much worse than Hyundai or Kia ever has been. When I used to sell cars at a new car dealership, the general manager and sales manager of the store both laughed when a customer wanted to trade in a Suzuki.

    This is Suzuki's biggest challenge in this country, as well as their very lean dealer network coast to coast.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I'm not sure how the MPG comparison between the Passat and the Sonata
    got in to the picture


    Me neither, but it did... ;)

    Anyway, it did lead to the interesting discovery that the DSG can apparently result in a 2 mpg increase.

    On a completely different topic, I got the Motor Trend that has the Fusion COTY. I noticed that the Fusion on the cover had a body colored grill. Since I am not a fan of chrome, I did some investigating. Apparently they have a "monotone package" that includes that body colored grill plus a "sport-tuned suspension", 18 inch alloys, and more.

    Not sure I'd want the 18 inchers, but the car looks much better to me without the chrome grill.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    The 2011 Hyundai Sonata and Kia Optima are set to displace the Lexus ES350 and Toyota Camry next year. It will be fun to watch.

    Fanboi dreaming...

    This is impossible next year or the year after or the year after that. Why? Hyundai doesn't have the capacity to build 450,000 units nor do they have the sales organization to sell that many units.

    You're also assuming that everyone else simply sits still and allows this to occur. That'll never happen.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    Maybe the Camry won't be displaced as a sales leader right away--but it has already been displaced in one regard: Toyota and Honda no longer have a lock on perceived quality. Today there are at least six mainstream midsize sedans that informed customers will take seriously: Camry, Accord, Altima, Sonata, Fusion/Milan, and Malibu are all within striking distance of each other, and each one offers several good reasons to choose it over the competition. What does the Camry offer that the others don't? Well, there's resale value, and, um. . . the Toyota name? Not as big an edge as it used to be. Accord? Same problem. Sonata and Fusion/Milan already offer excellent reliability and very good quality control--areas in which Toyota and Honda once comfortably led the pack. There's also style: the Altima's exterior is very dramatic, and the Malibu's interior offers an upscale environment with distinctive colors and textures.

    Toyota got caught napping with both the current Camry and Corolla. It will be interesting to see how long it takes the company to awaken, and what it will come up with when/if it really does.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I'd add to that list the Mazda6, Legacy, and Passat. And the Optima isn't a slouch, either, in I4 form, although it gets little respect. That may change with its upcoming remake. Then there's the new Kizashi--looks like a credible entry. There's no leeway for anyone to slip... several others will be on their heels, ready to trample them.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Toyota got caught napping with both the current Camry and Corolla. It will be interesting to see how long it takes the company to awaken, and what it will come up with when/if it really does.

    I don't disagree with the first paragraph because I agree that you can throw a blanket over the entire segment. Choose any one and be happy.

    But then you added the last sentences above and just made yourself look silly. Caught napping? How is it the No 1 nameplate in the segment continues to hold that title for the last 5 yrs running and and then ...and then... according to Edmunds here last month became the No 1 nameplate in the entire US auto industry. And you seriously think that this is being 'caught napping'.

    Helloo...all the rest of the industry would love to be caught napping like that. Your testosterone might have gotten the best of you there don't you think? Buwahahaha.

    I know, I know this is another of those ... 'I don't know how they do it but they have these two blandmobiles that are barely in the middle of the pack in every respect....for the car guys....but the public somehow continues to confuse us by snapping them up faster than every other vehicle. Just can't figure it out.'
  • dodgeman07dodgeman07 Member Posts: 574
    Toyota has admitted to the world that they have failed to deliver for several years running and had become Japan's version of General Motors.

    Toyota vowed to make major changes, starting with top mgt, in an effort to win back customers that are looking elsewhere for ingenuity.

    Toyota must get back on track very quickly because they are widely perceived as a Japanese Buick.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    There's no leeway for anyone to slip... several others will be on their heels, ready to trample them.

    The Camry seems to have plenty of "leeway". They have a sizeable lead in sales over the field. They would have to really screw up, to loose that kind of lead. I don't see that happening. I don't see the Accord slipping any time soon either. "Trample them", I don't think so. Not any time soon.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    It's impossible to equate the opinions of people posting here to those of the "average car buyer". While we may see a lot of alternatives, the millions of people that once drove American(or other brand), had some bad product, and then discovered the dependibility of the Camcord are afraid to try anything else for fear they will be get stuck again. Perception is a very hard thing to change especially when it involves one of the largest financial transactions that most people make.

    There may be more fun and better looking cars out there but for the near term I don't see anyone making a serious run at supremacy from those two.

    One caveat: Toyota's recent bad safety news and recalls coupled with a general sense of lacking focus on quality could move Honda closer and give others inroads to increase market share but not supremacy.

    If VW could solve their quality problems and really turn their perception around they could be a juggernaut to contend with. A lot of people like their styling, performance, handling, interior quality but hang back due to not wanting to experience the horror stories that many have with their vehicles.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    the millions of people that once drove American(or other brand), had some bad product, and then discovered the dependability of the Camcord are afraid to try anything else for fear they will be get stuck again.

    That's just it. American car buyers were virtually forced to try other brands. And it only seems natural they would have to be forced to go back. Seems fair to me. I don't see Honda or Toyota making any mistakes that big. To say any midsize sedan will outsell the Camry, in the next 10 years, would be unrealistic.
  • texasnightowltexasnightowl Member Posts: 31
    If VW could solve their quality problems and really turn their perception around they could be a juggernaut to contend with. A lot of people like their styling, performance, handling, interior quality but hang back due to not wanting to experience the horror stories that many have with their vehicles.

    This. I'm car shopping now and was/is very interested in a VW Jetta. But I'm still skittish about reliability and potential cost once it is out of warranty. And the TDI is very appealing but there have also been plenty of stories about VW dealers not servicing them right (overfilling oil or not using the right oil) during the carefree maintenance period. On the other hand I really liked the handling and interior quality. A lot.

    As it is I'm probably going to end up choosing between a Ford Fusion or a Mazda 3 hatchback.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    If VW could solve their quality problems

    By "quality", what is more specifically meant is mechanical reliability.

    In, I believe, the Dec. 2009 issue, CR has listed the VW Golf as among the most reliable small cars. The Jetta is mechanically the same car, but has been getting lower, but still above average, reliability scores from CR. Neither is a midsize, however.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Toyota's chairman stated that they had seemingly lost the desire to excel. This is the job of the Chairman, especially a new one, that is keeping the coals burning underneath everybody's feet. He's not satisfied so he's going to make life miserable for everybody until he is satisfied.

    But yes I agree that they grew too fast here especially as they were looking to cash in on the mega-bucks in the truck/SUV segments. The money in these segments made for fat happy and dumb players. When you're used to making $2000 on a sedan and suddenly you see $10000, $15000 and $20000 profits on SUVs and trucks it's like a drug; c.f. the Detroit 3. They must get off that easy money high and get back to concentrating on making most of their money from $20000-$25000 vehicles.

    But that's a different segment. In the sedans they continue to kick butt and take names. The Camry is approaching the No 1 nameplate every month. It's jumped over the the Silverado and it's going after the F150. The Corolla is simply crushing the Civic. Everybody else is a distant 3rd thru 10th place. This is not being caught napping. This is kicking butt month-after-month-after-month.

    However they might be perceived the one metric that counts is sales volume. Anything else gets the winner a beauty pagaent crown.....and 2nd thru 10th place where it counts. BTW this conversation isn't new this year. It's been going on for at least 10 yrs and no one can figure out how and why Camry and Corolla sales stay as high as they are month-after-month-after-month.

    It's because it's a business not a beauty pagaent.
  • hackattack5hackattack5 Member Posts: 315
    "That's just it. American car buyers were virtually forced to try other brands. And it only seems natural they would have to be forced to go back"

    elroy5:
    That is what happened to me with Honda. I spent $75,000 since 2005 on new Honda cars and had numerous issue's with all of them. Somewhere along the way Honda started to give me flash backs to the GM customer service like Oh those rear brakes only lasted 20,000 miles well thats normal wear yep thats it, normal wear. With all the recalls Toyota is having I don't feel like they are any better so I picked the Fusion. The only good thing I can say about Honda is the resell value is very high compared to others. Ford screwed its resell value back in the day on the Taurus because of its Hertz rental car business. If you look back on the reliability ratings those old Taurus's did very well in the reliability ratings. With the competition as tight as it is in the sedan segment it will be interesting to see how those companies can promote the resell value.
  • dodgeman07dodgeman07 Member Posts: 574
    To say any midsize sedan will outsell the Camry, in the next 10 years, would be unrealistic.

    -------------------------------------------

    We need to get you on Toyota's BOD! That would just about insure the competition's success.

    It's a lot easier to get to the top than it is to stay there................
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Having to produce, then give away a huge number of vehicles was the double-pronged pitchfork that skewered GM and Ford. They had to produce a huge number of vehicles to cover their fixed costs..whether they could sell this number or not. When they couldn't sell these numbers they then were forced to
    a) initiate give away programs like Employee Pricing for Everyone ( Please take these vehicles ! )
    b) massive fleet sales at breakeven pricing.

    Both prongs skewered the retail buyers and drove down the resale prices.

    Hopefully in the reorganizations this year the D3, along with the rest of the industry, will learn how to balance production and demand. This alone will eliminate the need to give away the vehicles thus drive up resale prices. However it also means that on the retail side the makers are going to try to get higher prices from the everyday buyer.

    In this they have a long row to hoe. Toyota's and Honda's normally sell for $1000-$2000 more than the typical D3 midsizer or a Hyundai/Kia. Think about how that affects resale prices and how that affects the profitability of each maker.

    400,000 units x $1000.....
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    With the competition as tight as it is in the sedan segment it will be interesting to see how those companies can promote the resell value.

    Well, to be honest, only Honda and Toyota can promote high resale because they are the two that stand at the top. They are followed by Subaru, Nissan, VW and Mazda. Then we have Hyundai, Ford, Chevy and Kia. This is how they play out in the wholesale world.

    I have noticed Honda's, particularly the Accord, has a stupid high book value and it is very common to get retail money from a wholesaler.

    Now, there are many good cars on this list. Unfortunately, being a good car is not going to automatically put you at the top with Honda and Toyota. Take the Sonata for example. You can buy a new one so cheap it hurts the resale value. Why do you think Hyundai promotes rebates and special financing and not leasing? Because they wither away to nothing very fast.

    Nissan and Mazda have really tried to boost their resale value of the Altima and Mazda6, but, have struggled to do so. I think those two cars are more impressive then both the Accord and Camry, by a long shot.

    Subaru has done a great job with the Legacy. Subaru is really on a roll lately, and they seemed to have figured out something and are running with it. Personally, I am really turned off by the new Legacy. I think it became cheap and very uninspiring to drive. Add ugly to boot.

    Ford has done a wonderful job with their recent ad campaign with the Fusion, as well as the rest of their lineup. They are really getting people to think American again. I drove a new Fusion myself, and I really do not like the interior. It just does not do it for me. The outer styling is nice, and conservative at the same time. The power train is good, and I would not hesitate to buy one based on that. But, it will be quite sometime before the resale can be a factor.

    The Malibu resale will continue to get destroyed as long as Chevy keeps pumping mass units into rental service. I think they put waaaaay to many into rental service and it will hurt overall reliability and resale. Ford was smart and scaled back rentals, as did Mazda.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Which is precisely why the Chairman has to step up and state that he's not at all satisfied with the company as it reached the top. Crack that whip....

    The big reason why I don't see any of the others taking over the top spot is that there is no trend in either the Camry or Corolla that they are losing sales, in fact they seem to be solidifying their position on the top spots. Outside of that the other makers simply don't have the capacity to suddenly double production and sales. Where would these new Malibu's come from? How could Hermosillo jump it's production by more than 50% suddenly ( 'suddenly' is 5 yrs in auto production terms ). The Accord is maxxed out in Marysville. Hyundai simply doesn't have the distribution network to move that many vehicles.

    This assumes also that both Toyota and Honda stand still and do nothing.

    What has happened is that the bottom-dwellers, except for Chrysler, have improved dramatically so that the separation from top to bottom is very very small. This is good for all of us buying vehicles in this segment.
  • 8babies1dog8babies1dog Member Posts: 122
    This is a few stats from the 2009 USA "car" sales as per The Wall Street Journal.
    (car sales only not trucks or suv's etc)

    maker tot. sales % 2009 v's 2008 % sales f/ oct. 2009 market share
    GM 731,434 -33.2 -11.4 8.5
    FORD 491,997 -16.8 -10.7 5.7
    TOY 913,515 -24.0 +1.5 10.6
    HONDA 599,429 -23.6 -3.7 6.9
    NISSAN 429,866 -18.2 +1.8 5.0
    HYUNDAI 282,443 +55.8 +55.9 3.3
    MAZDA 121,478 -22.2 -1.2 1.4
    CHRYSLER 187,308 -47.6 -29.7 2.2
    SUZUKI 3,774 -81.0 -99.5 ?
    VW 149,187 -16.0 +15.8 1.7

    There are many more listed, this is just a few.

    online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html
  • 8babies1dog8babies1dog Member Posts: 122
    For some reason my stats on the post got jammed togather, they were apart.
    After the car maker is the total sales for the 2009 year, the next number is
    the percentage of sales compared to 2008, example (GM is -33.2) the next
    figure is the sales for October 2009, example (FORD is +10.7) and last is
    their % of US market share f/ 2009 sales. All of this is on the web site listed.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Amongst the top 20 vehicles at your link, the Fusion sales are one of the few showing a YTD increase at +15.3%. Camry is -23.7%, Accord -26.6%, Altima -29.8%, Malibu -12.8%.

    Legacy sales are also up, at +14.5%.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Good data. The WSJ publishes this market data every month. It's useful IMO but they don't keep prior months' data AFAIK.
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