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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • 8babies1dog8babies1dog Member Posts: 122
    Further down on that same website it shows Hyundai car sales went up
    55.9% in Oct 2009 over Oct. 2008. & +5.8% for the year.

    For more sales stats including some monthly reports try the following
    site.

    enter on Google search line; monthly breakdown US car sales
    scroll down to "monthly sales results GM inside news forum" it covers
    many car lines.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    There's been several posts in the past 24 hours related to comparative pricing of mid-sized sedans. The general theme was, "Toyotas and Hondas are priced thousands more than Fords, Hyundai/Kias etc."

    I follow pricing closely (a "hobby" I guess) and what I see is that the prices of, for example, the Fulan and Sonata are getting very close to those of the Camry. It's hard for me to keep up with pricing on the Accord, because for some reason none of my area Honda dealers advertise prices... ever (except lease deals). But I can still see price samples in the forums here.

    Take for example the base Camry AT compared to the base Sonata AT:

    2010 Hyundai Sonata GLS AT: MSRP $20,620, Invoice $19,776 (has $1000 rebate)
    Sonata Price, Invoice less rebate: $18,776
    2010 Ford Fusion S AT: MSRP $21,220, Invoice $19,791 (has $1500 rebate)
    Fusion Price, Invoice less rebate: $18,291
    2010 Toyota Camry Base AT: MSRP $21,195, Invoice $19,659 (has $500 rebate)
    Camry Price, Invoice less rebate: $19,159

    Of course it's possible that there are "hidden" incentives that would bring prices down further. But invoice less rebates wise, the base Camry is only $383 more expensive than the base Sonata, and only $868 more than the base Fusion. Not $2000 more, or even $1000 more. Interestingly, the Fusion is nearly $500 less than the Sonata; there is a common perception that Hyundai is the "low priced" brand (with Kia). That appears to be changing.
  • wayne21wayne21 Member Posts: 259
    For a long time, fleet sales had been dominated by GM, Chrysler and Ford. (Fleet sales are those made to government and commercial enterprises such as rental car companies).
    Fleet sales tend to hurt residual values because cars sold to fleets usually end up on the auction block as used vehicles after a short period of time.

    Since there's a lot of these cars coming up for sale, it drives down the prices.

    Car buyers who purchase vehicles that are sold heavily to fleets can expect the value of their car to drop very fast, as has been the case with many Chrysler and GM cars that are mainly used as rental cars. This has hurt GM and Chrysler and so they've been cutting back on sales to fleets.

    The largest seller of fleet vehicles is now Hyundai followed closely by Nissan. The percentage of cars sold to fleets is 34% for Hyundai and 29% for Nissan. As a comparison, only 15% of GM vehicles are now sold to fleets.
    ----------------------------------
    While most automakers are reporting double-digit drops in sales each month, Hyundai and Kia continue to swim against the current and maintain (or even increase) units sold. According to Automotive News, a significant part of their success is attributable to fleet sales – large numbers of cars going directly into rental and corporate fleets. During the first quarter of 2009 alone, more than 33 percent of Hyundai's first quarter sales of 95,854 units were fleet related. Rental car sales represented nearly 35 percent of Kia's sales during the same period.

    The above two articles were in separate papers. Yes, Hyundai sales are up this year. However, an individual purchaser of those cars will see the value drop real fast as hyundai has been increasing their numbers via fleet sales. Are they going with fleet sales because they didn't learn from GM/Ford or do they not care who they sell to just so long as the increase their numbers? IDK
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Your argument is correct if going by published prices, even invoice, and published rebates/incentives but falls apart when actual street prices are used. Toyota, Honda and VW usually, don't offer dealer discounts nearly as deep as Hyundai/Mazda/Ford/Chev etc. so street prices are still quite a bit less.

    In Chicago, Sonatas are routinely sold for about $2000 to $3000 less than a comparable Camcord. May be a little closer in Minny but I'm sure it's similar.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Are they going with fleet sales because they didn't learn from GM/Ford or do they not care who they sell to just so long as the increase their numbers?

    Talking about Hyundai/Kia above. Something to consider----Could Hyundai be trying to get more people into their cars as a form of advertisement? A lot of people bash or ignore Hyundais but have never driven one. Since their resale value is already quite crappy, maybe they figure that a short term burst in rental fleets may give people the chance to try them or at least give the perception that they are more mainstream. Just a thought but they seem to have been doing a lot of things right lately so I tend not to condemn their actions so quickly.
  • dodgeman07dodgeman07 Member Posts: 574
    Which is precisely why the Chairman has to step up and state that he's not at all satisfied with the company...

    ------------------------------------------------

    Toyota's Chairman really laid it on the line in that speech. It sounded like a profuse apology to Toyota faithful around the world because it was.....

    One of Toyota's problems, other than Japanese issues in general which are significant also, is they have grown so big it becomes difficult to change course with any speed. Like an aircraft carrier trying to turn, they have been slow to respond. They opened the door and many companies, most notably Hyundai, stepped up their game.

    I credit Toyota for maintaining huge dollars in retained earnings to weather this storm. The will prosper in the future by pandering to the masses but need to inject some excitement in the brand that has been lacking for years. They also need to work with their North American dealers who have run off many customers with "We're the Best!" attitudes.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Actually, using "street" lease prices, Camrys and Accords are some of the lowest-priced mid-sizers out there, along with the Altima and Mazda6, which have attractive lease deals right now. Note I didn't mention VW in my earlier post--their new-car prices are significantly higher, e.g. for the Passat, than for most other mid-sized family sedans.

    From what I've noticed, Toyota offers some pretty big "hidden" incentives, as does Honda. For example, I see in the Edmunds Prices Paid discussion Hondas purchased around the country for well below invoice. Yet there are no published incentives/rebates. So there must be hidden money to the dealers there someplace.

    From what I've seen lately, the going price for a Sonata GLS AT in the Twin Cities is around $18k with the general rebate of $1000, and less when other rebates like military rebate are applied. That isn't much less than what I see Camrys going for. For Accords, it's harder to tell, as I mentioned Honda dealers advertise only lease rates in my area. Interesting that Honda dealers advertise their prices in Chicago, while they don't do it 500 miles away in the Twin Cities. I would suspect collusion amongst the Twin Cities Honda dealers, but that's illegal so that can't be the reason. ;)
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    You'll love this then... in one certain region no Toyota dealer has advertised any new car price in nearly 4 years!! Ditto Honda. The dealers don't fight in the paper or on the radio. You'd be surprised what that does for transaction prices.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    You'll love this then... in one certain region no Toyota dealer has advertised any new car price in nearly 4 years!!

    Gee, are you going to let us in on the secret region? :confuse:
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Camry and Accord lease prices are cheaper because they can use a higher residual because of less depreciation. This is very tempting to people that are on the "monthly rental plan".

    I've seen deals on the Accord and Camry prices as well but usually at end of year and before new and improved versions hit the showrooms. I spent a lot of time in Minny the last two years and watched the car prices in the papers. I noticed that a lot of dealers up there put in "from" or "starting at" and a price. Not too many Chicago dealers do that. They might only have one of something but they advertise the actual selling price. Anyway, Sonata GLS AT are usually going for about $16500 here and Camry LE AT are going for about $18500. That's day in day out. Add in a situation where redesigns are involved and I think you would see even a wider spread between the Sonata and the Camry.

    Honda dealers list lease prices only about 80% of the time down here . About the only prices you see will be base Civic or base Accord prices and maybe an Odyssey once in awhile. However, there are a couple of dealers that will use lease prices on about 4 advertised models and then throw in a Civic DX manual for a low ball price. I highly doubt that car would be available when you get to the dealer though. "Gee, it's been sold already even though it's only 9am on the day of the ad and you're the first one through the door".
  • 8babies1dog8babies1dog Member Posts: 122
    In the comparison the base price looks right, very close, but an important
    thing is, what equipment comes standard in that base model. If you only
    want base model features thats fine. But if your not attached to 1 brand and
    are looking for a better value for your money, compare apples to apples.
    I'll use this as an example, several months ago (after much research) I
    bought a new 2009 Sonata, in side by side comparison w/ cars like Accord,
    Camry, Altima etc. the Sonata had a longer list of standard equipment,
    some of those standard features were add on's for the compeditors "price
    jumped up considerably". At that time Hyundai had a $3000. factory rebate
    and the dealership I went to added $2000. incentive to it. I went to a Toyota
    dealership just down the road and looked at a Camry, had to step up level
    of trim to get about the same features, (big price increase) they only offered
    a $500. rebate. The sales manager said they didn't need to give a rebate
    that someone would buy it anyway.I told him that would,t be me. Went back
    to Hyundai, told them I had looked at a Camry they knocked another $500. off
    for the Toyota rebate. Now who wants to sell cars? The warranty was the
    clincher.

    Toyota US car sales for 2009 dropped 24%
    Hyundai USA car sales for 2009 went up 5.8%

    Yes; Toyota cars out sell the rest "BUT" the gap seems to be closing. All the
    ratings have shown the quality and dependability of the Camry has made it
    drop in the standings lately. Is that over sight or were they napping or do
    they even care. "If we make it they will buy it" attitude don't work for me!
    I still like Toyotas but not nearly as much anymore.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Notice the general Sonata rebate is only $1000 now. It was $750 on the Camry a few weeks ago, but is down to $500 now. Also, the price on the Sonata is up significantly in the past 3 years. A 2007 GLS with PEP and mats was just under $19,500. But now it's almost $2000 more, $21,370. A comparable Camry LE is $22,650 but has a few features not on the GLS such as telescopic wheel and 6-speed AT. I won't be surprised to see Sonata prices up significantly when the 2011s come out. I think the reduction in rebate to $1000 is a way to prepare buyers for higher prices. I do think we'll see a surge in rebates on the Sonatas as the old design is closed out early next year, so if someone is looking for a deal on a Sonata, that will be a good time.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The dealers in this secret region are kidding themselves if they think they are keeping pricing out of the hands of the buying public. Most everyone has Internet access these days, and knows how to use it to find real-world pricing info such as at Edmunds.com and other sites.
  • 8babies1dog8babies1dog Member Posts: 122
    Exactly right, do your homework and figure out what car you want. Search
    the net and come up with a price you can live with, study and remember it
    so when you do go to make a deal you already have the info, don't let the
    salesman blow a bunch of smoke up your "nose". Don't let the salesman sell
    you the car, you buy it! Have the total price in mind TT&L and all fees, don't
    be confused with all the crap they throw at you. The salesman will want to go
    back and forth to his sales manager for a better price, tell him that you know
    what you should have to pay and their next price is their last shot, and if I don't
    like it you will see my rear end going out the door. Go down the road to another
    dealer and repeat the routine. Be extremely polite not arrogant, it has worked
    for me for years. If they really want to sell a car they will call you back, use that to
    your advantage work the 2 dealerships against each other. If they ask what you
    are willing to pay just say "the least you will take". If the people on the net report
    a certain price they have paid why would you have to pay more? It takes a little
    confidence but practice makes perfect. What do you have to loose except $$$$$.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Of course some do. Some also don't. That's never been the question.

    The question is do the dealers fight amongst themselves over pricing in print and on the radio or do they fight at the point of sale between the vehicles and the value of buying at one place or another? Pricing has almost always been shown to be one of the lesser reasons for buying...that is unless the dealers emphasize pricing.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Pricing may be a lesser reason for buying one model over another, but when it comes to buying a particular new car at one dealership vs. another, why would price not be an important factor since the product is identical, no matter who it is purchased from?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Which is exactly why those Honda and Toyota dealers don't want to advertise their prices... they know price is an important factor. That's why, for example, the Honda dealerships (also Toyota) have no problem advertising their lease rates, since they are very competitive and they know other makes will have trouble matching them. If price isn't an an important factor in a buying decision, as kdhspyder suggests, then the monthly payment shouldn't be an important factor either. But that is clearly not the case.

    I will give the Toyota dealerships in my area credit, though, in that most of them do advertise prices in addition to lease rates. I think that is because, as I pointed out in my example earlier, Toyota's pricing is pretty competitive with other makes including Hyundai. A Camry might be a little more than a Sonata or Fulan, but I don't think $1000 or so will stop someone from buying a Camry if that is what they really want. Honda's pricing obviously isn't as competitive, or their dealers would be advertising their prices. Yet there are deals to be had even for Hondas (Accords for example). You may need to work a little harder for them.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    The No 1 reason why people buy or don't buy at the current place they're at is the salesperson. If they like the salesperson and think that he/she has listened to them, shown them how the vehicle will meet their needs and shown the value of doing business there at that place....the buyers will almost always buy.

    Similarly some buyers will only buy from one brand from one store regardless of who the salesperson is. If they run into a bad egg they'll either return another time or ask a manager to get rid of the pain in the butt and get them another.

    For all of the hardazz uber-knowledgable people herein, that's not the majority of buyers.
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    Honda's pricing obviously isn't as competitive, or their dealers would be advertising their prices.

    How so very true! There is a local/regional dealer group that sells GMC/Buick/Chevrolet/Subaru/Hyundai/Honda vehicles at several locations. They tout on their website for each brand their "negotiation-free sales policy" and that the price posted on their cars is what everyone pays, no hassles required. The curious part about that policy is when you check the prices online. Every make but Honda has discounted prices (not too great by the way!) listed for the vehicles in their inventory. For any and all Hondas, you are told to call them for their selling price. That's one call I won't be making! ;)
  • 8babies1dog8babies1dog Member Posts: 122
    When people buy anything with little or no regards to price or don't try to
    haggle over price that is exactly what keeps the price increasing, the car
    companies "love" that. The salesman's job is to extract the most out of
    the customer as possible, it's in his best interest, he more than likely
    gets a % of the sale. Whether he likes you or not it's not his decision
    on final price. You can call it hardazz if you like, I call it business. If you
    want to give your hard earned $$ away that is very much your choice.
    Knowledge is power and action speaks louder than words!
  • 8babies1dog8babies1dog Member Posts: 122
    I would like to add this just to justify several things I posted, buying a house
    is a big investment but buying cars over the amount of time you own that
    house is also a pretty big investment. The point is would you buy that house
    at sellers starting price or would you try to get him to come down?

    Is that not the same thing as negotiating on a car purchase?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Depends on the market. If the real estate market is really really tight then a buyer might have to get the bid in as soon as possible and even bid higher than the asking price if they really want that one.

    There was an article recently posted at cnbc.com about the absolutely ridiculous real estate market in Las Vegas, here. As much as 30-40% of the inventory is under foreclosure. It's almost impossible to get one too. Those with money ( the uber-wealth and the offshore investors ) are snatching up every single unit of inventory the instant they hit the market. Lenders are getting 10-20 bids the day they start.

    - This market is crazy and many things are just not going to make any sense.

    - I can guarantee you 99.99% of the listings emailed to you will no longer be available by the time you get here.

    - Properties are selling in the blink of an eye.

    - Properties are getting multiple offers within a few days of being on the market, the most offers I’ve heard a house had recently was 44 offers (I know, crazy).

    - This market is crazy and many things are just not going to make any sense.

    This part is simply supply and demand.

    And sure enough this was the home we fell in love with. It was on for $132,000 so we decided to be really aggressive and offered $160,000, plus we had government backing on our loan. Well our Realtor called that night and said, 'You're not going to get the home. They got 30 offers and half are cash offers, so the bank is not even going to look at you.' The banks just want the cash to unload these places."
  • 8babies1dog8babies1dog Member Posts: 122
    You may be right for your specific area, but why is there so many
    houses in foreclosure and on the market around you? There will
    always be investors willing to speculate on property. I will list a web
    site below with up to date information on the US housing market,
    check it out and see if you think it's a buyers or sellers market!

    housing market - News - US News and World Report

    Sorry for the distraction, will get back to cars now.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Your RE example is not really about price, it is about terms...the sellers want cash. They'd rather accept a $130,000 cash offer and be done with the deal tomorrow than accept your $160,000 offer that requires waiting a month and hoping you get financing.

    Car dealers mostly would prefer that you finance through them, rather than pay cash, unless things have changed. I believe cash offers may have been preferable during the brief cash for clunkers run, because timing was critical.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If they like the salesperson and think that he/she has listened to them, shown them how the vehicle will meet their needs and shown the value of doing business there at that place....the buyers will almost always buy.

    That is one of the most preposterous comments I've seen in the 10 years I've hung out in the Town Hall.

    Unless... the "value of doing business" at that dealership includes a competitive price. But if this likable salesperson is offering a car that I can get elsewhere in town for significantly less money, it would be "no deal." I'd go to the dealership that is willing to give me the better deal. I can always have the car serviced at that "superior" dealership if I choose to do so. ;)

    I actually had this experience this past Friday. I looked at two different establishments for what turned out to be exactly the same car, except one had a few more miles with new tires, and the other the original tires that had maybe 10k miles left on them. Both cars (used) were like new. I really liked the first salesman I talked to. He was professional and willing to work with me on my trade. We talked "cars" for some time. But I was looking for a specific price point, and went to another place. The salesman was fine, courteous and all, but it was a busy day there and I was ping-ponged around quite a bit. In the end, though, this salesman agreed to the price I wanted--about $450 less than the other guy offered, plus I liked the fact the car had new tires plus extra "goodies" were tossed in like a coupon (transferable) for $200 off a car purchase from any dealer in their chain, a 5-day, 500-mile "bring it back" guarantee, and coupons for discounts on body repair etc. So I called the first salesman back and thanked him for his efforts, but said I was going with the other deal--even though I really liked him and the way he did business better than the 2nd place.

    (BTW, this was for a mid-sized car.)

    Since you are a car salesman, you may think that is harsh, or unreasonable. But consider... would you pay more for a house just because you happen to like the Realtor more than another Realtor who is offering a similar house for significantly less money?

    Anyway, maybe we should get off the real estate thread and back to cars. :)
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I imagine that you encounter shocking news every day. The situations noted above we see every single day, multiple times. You can believe it or not, it doesn't really matter one way or another. It's part of our success.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I didn't realize you were in car sales but it makes no difference to me....your opinion is as good as mine. I agree with you that there are plenty of people that the "ease of the deal" is more important than a couple of hundred dollars. I didn't take any offense at the "hardazz" comment as I know what you meant by it. That the people that frequent this forum are a lot more knowledgeable about prices and will probably cut a hard deal. Absolutely nothing wrong with that as that is exactly what most car salesman are trying to do.

    Tell me though, is it not true that the vast majority of car dealers will try to get as much for their vehicle as possible to include playing a lot of games. Calling anybody, including people on this forum, "hardazzes" for trying to do the same is hypocritical.
  • 8babies1dog8babies1dog Member Posts: 122
    I think the term "hardazz" was directed at me for the post about the way I
    handle my car buying, that don't bother me in the slightest, I have been
    called many different things but I don't remember ever being called a
    "dumbazz". Below is a phrase that says "uber-knowledgable" people
    herein, thats not the majority of buyers. That sounds like your saying
    the majority of buyers are "easy" and ignorant and don't know about
    all the little tricks car salesmen are taught to do. That kind of comment
    won't make many brownie points in this forum. If I took it the wrong way
    excuse me, but that is what I read!

    For all of the hardazz uber-knowledgable people herein, that's not the majority of buyers.

    This is my opinion in response to a post made at 10:27 AM by "kdhspyder "
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I have no doubt you see buyers who can be schmoozed by a smooth-talking salesperson, such that the buyer forgets about things like... price. I also suspect those kinds of buyers you see in your Toyota dealership are almost always predisposed to buying a Toyota (a Camry, in this context) so it's just a matter of cozying up to the buyer and explaining to him/her how wonderful you and your dealership are. If the buyer is interested in makes other than Toyota, I would indeed be "shocked" if price were not a factor. Especially in today's economy, where every dollar is precious.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    Exactly. Many Toyota and Honda buyers are, at this point, still in the habit of looking only at the latest from that brand. When I was in the car business in the mid-90s, our number one selling point was "hey, it's a Honda." Of course, that worked great when we had Accords and our competition was building Achievas and Contours and such.
  • hackattack5hackattack5 Member Posts: 315
    "I liked the fact the car had new tires" "exactly the same car"
    I think other things would come into my thinking and maybe you researched this too. Was the car you bought a 1 owner car? No one takes care of a car better than the first owner. Did it have a clean carfax? Was it garage kept? What about other things that wear out like brakes, belts, fluids? The tires are expensive but if it needs brakes and a transmission flush you will be spending about the same amount as tires. I can see buying a new car and only focus on price but on Used you have to be real careful not to end up with someone else"s Lemon.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    >Did it have a clean carfax?

    If you believe their advertising that carfax has all information, you're going to get taken sometime. Carfax does not have everything that has happened to the car in its report.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    For 25 yrs I was in industrial sales and management. I sold steel to the Big 3 as a sole supplier, the appliance makers, huge construction companies and privately owned steel service centers and component makers. That's hardazz business.

    It's more corporate and refined but since the sales run into the $millions per transaction the positions taken are a lot tougher ( hardazz ) where neither side will budge in a negotiation which might take weeks, months or years. This would be the norm rather than the exception.

    There are similar situations in the retail auto business. A knowledgable buyer arrives knowing exactly which vehicle he or she wants and states...'I'll buy this vehicle at this price OTD..take the offer to the decision-maker...take it or leave it.' There's no perjorative here this is just a hardazz position that arises from time to time. However in the retail business these are the exceptions rather than the rule. That was my point.

    Everyone should fight for every dollar they have so that they spend only when they see sufficient value available in the product or service being offered. This point though is highly highly highly subjective. Where the knowledgable 'hardazzs' herein see the price as the key component...this is not the most important criteria for most buyers.

    The majority of buyers - OK, in our market - have another hierarchy. The sales person is the most important variable for the largest part of the buying public. Buyers will spend more with a person that they like and trust. Compound that with a brand and a company and a location that they like and trust then the synergies build on one another. It works. I see it daily.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    Carfax reports rely heavily on data from state agencies--and not all states collect the same data. For example, Florida maintains fairly detailed information about vehicles involved in a variety of accidents (where the damage was, and approximate cost of repair IIRC), while Georgia only reports that there was an "accident" and whether a salvage title was issued. Some states will record a failed emissions inspection, or a passed one--others don't test regularly for this. Some states have safety inspections and others don't--and not all of those that have them will report it to Carfax. So a Carfax report is only as good as the state records used to compile it.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Yep that's a good view at both Toyota stores, both Honda stores, Chevy, Acura and Hyundai. But I didn't say that price was of no consideration, it has to be. That's the job of the vehicle maker. Price though - in this market - is not something the dealers fight about in public, neither in print nor on radio. It works. Our growth shows that it does.
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    Basically it covers how many times the car has been through registry, which is one way to determine if the car came from a leasing company or as a rental. It will also report if the car was in an accident, or any other thing that caused an insurance claim, As long as it was reported. If it wasn't reported and a repair was made that was paid for in cash by the owner, it will not show up on a Carfax.

    An example of this would be the 1995 Mercury Grand Marquis that I am restoring for my mom, she loves the car and had some munches done on the fenders and doors. I am repairing those, and replaced one fender, but if you got a Carfax on it, none of this would be shown on it. In fact this car had a Clean Carfax, and after getting into it I found a lot of body work has been done, and nearly the entire car has been resprayed. In the Used car market, even with a Carfax, it is Buyer Beware!
  • 8babies1dog8babies1dog Member Posts: 122
    Thanks, now we are on the same page, you are exactly right about a person
    being attached to a certain product in most cases I fall in that group. Not to
    knock any particular brand but me and most of my family were 100% GM.
    But after giving them a more than fare shake (about 30 years and 10
    vehicles later) I found it may be in my best interest to change and for the
    last 14 years I have been very satisfied. Have bought cars from 3 different
    carmakers and all gave better service overall than 30 years of brand X. Still
    have a Mazda 626 V6 thats 8 years old and has only been in the shop several
    times for minor stuff, over 150k miles excellent little car. Just bought the wife a
    new Sonata SE V6 so far fantastic automobile, 15000k miles the smoothest
    running easyest handling car I have ever owned and the MPG/HP rating is by
    far the best also. I plan on being a long time owner of these 2 brands and I
    also will keep shopping the best deal, I don't always have to be a "hardazz"
    to buy, sometimes a sensible fare offer is all thats needed, both sides are
    happy.

    I actually get called "HARDASS" most of the time but my grandchildren call
    me a big "teddybear" Happy car shopping!
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, a one-owner (leased) car. I talked with her on the phone. Nice lady, from a rural part of WI. Loved the car, but decided to turn it in at end of lease and get something with a darker interior (this one is light grey). Said she always took good care of the car and it looks it. Just one tiny touched-up nick or I couldn't tell it from new w/o looking at the odometer. All service history was in the Carfax, including the oil changes every 3,000 miles (fairly unusual I've found)--but so was a lot of erroneous info that would lead someone to believe the car had been offered for sale about six times since new (it wasn't). I agree with other posts that Carfax has some use, but is not perfect. The car still has almost 2-1/2 years of factory warranty left on it, in case there is something amiss.
  • hackattack5hackattack5 Member Posts: 315
    Yes you are correct but I will still ask to see the carfax as a source of information. How many owners did it have, was it leased? If it did have more than one owner how long did they own it. You can learn from any source of info you can get. I ask for the carfax so it does not cost me anything so its just more info that the seller may or may not tell me. There was a couple times where a dealer would not get me the carfax on a car what does that tell you? Something to hide so yes you can get burned anytime you buy a used car but the more sources of info you can get the better off you are.
  • hackattack5hackattack5 Member Posts: 315
    backy:
    Looks like you got the right deal. Anytime you can talk to the prevous owner and they have no reason to stretch the truth you will get the real story. It seems like a lot of dealers around here will go to extreme mesures for the customer not to find the prevous owner. I noticed that about carfax also when it looks like it had muliple owners in a short period of time but with a little common sense you can figure it out.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    "According to the United States Environmental Protection Agency, Hyundai cars averaged 30.1 miles per gallon for the 2009 model year.

    Rounding out the top five are Honda (29.7 mpg), Volkswagen (29.6), Toyota (29.4) and Kia (28.0). Naturally, we can expect all of these figures to continue rising in the coming years as every automaker strives to meet the upcoming 35.5 mpg U.S. standard for the 2016 model year."

    Looks like the new DI 4 cyl that Hyundai is putting in the '11 Sonata will up the game in this contest even more. Since that is their bread and butter car, the 35+(old 4's 32 hwy mpg + 10%) hwy mpg that is estimated should have a major effect on the company's overall efficiency. No real trucks really helps here.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Don't forget the hybrid variant of the Sonata is coming also, along with a redesigned Tucson, Accent, and Elantra in the next year or so that will no longer use the old Alpha and Beta engines, but engines with greater fuel efficiency AND power. I don't expect Honda, Toyota et. al. will be sitting still though. And as you implied, Toyota's average would be much higher considering only cars and crossover SUVs.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    IMHO Hyundai needs to put their focus on suspension to meet up with Camcord and even Fusion and Malibu. The Sonata just doesn't seem to ride and handle as smoothly.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Vehicle .... Nov 09 .... YTD.......vs 11/08 YTD
    Camry ..... 27400 .... 321900 .... ( 89500 )*
    Accord .... 17200 .... 261800 .... ( 88600 )
    Altima ..... 15500 .... 184900 .... ( 67000 )
    Fusion .... 13800 .... 162000 .... + 24500**
    Malibu .... 11100 .... 142200 .... ( 18700 )
    Sonata ..... 8200 .... 109500 ...... ( 1200 )***

    *Loss of Solara sales included but Venza replacement not included
    **The only midsizer to increase sales this year
    ***Close to breakeven despite a down year for the industry.

    Conclusions:
    The Fusion and Sonata have prospered this year obviously and the Malibu is doing decently given what GM went through. Fleet Sales results pending.
    The Camry lost a lot of sales but remains solidly the King of the Hill. The addition of the Venza is a big plus for the corporation as a replacement for the Solara.
    The Accord and the Altima have taken it on the chin.
  • wayne21wayne21 Member Posts: 259
    From montgomeryadvertiser.com on Nov 30, the hyundai plant success is addressed as follows: About 10:30 a.m. today, it will roll off the end of the line as the millionth vehicle produced at the plant. The first Montgomery-made Sonata in March 2005 and the plant's first Santa Fe the next year received signatures from workers at the plant and have been kept as a couple of museum pieces.
    Vehicle No. 1 million won't have such a simple life. Hyundai builds cars to sell them, and this one will be sold like any other vehicle.
    According to plant spokesman Robert Burns, it is likely to end up in a rental fleet somewhere. The rental car companies have been stocking up on 2010 Sonatas, and the bulk of the production of that model now is going to fleets.

    Hyundai apparently makes fleet sales a significant portion of its business. Ford and GM paid the price for this and if history repeats itself, hyundai owners will have cars that plummet in resale value real fast and eventually, the fleet sales may come back to haunt hyundai as well.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Hyundai is a poor depreciator, not just fleet sales, but massive promotions. You've got to wonder how than can sell so cheaply without maybe Korean government support???
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    There is another side to fleet sales. It puts "butts in seats." One of Hyundai's biggest issues, maybe the biggest, is the number of people who wouldn't consider buying one. Sometimes that's because they refuse to buy a Hyundai. But sometimes it's because of unfamiliarity. I got familar with Hyundai--first the Elantra, then the Sonata--via rentals. The positive experience I had with those rentals was a big reason I bought a Hyundai ten years ago, and why I bought a Sonata this past weekend. While test-driving that car, I mentioned I already knew a lot about it, mostly from many rentals. The sales rep replied that he's had many customers come in to look at the Sonata because they were exposed to it as a rental. I was also first exposed to the Fulan via rentals, and was so impressed I put it on my shopping list a couple of times in the past 3 years (couldn't work out a good enough deal, however). OTOH, I've eliminated some cars from contention because of my rental experiences.

    So there's some upside for automakers to sell to fleets. Another being, they are profitable sales. Maybe not as profitable as a retail sale or lease w/o big incentives, but they add to the bottom line.

    One thing I've wondered, though... as some companies cut back on fleet sales, what if others didn't step up to meet that demand? Would all of us folks who need to rent cars for business or vacation travel be driving around in five-year-old cars with 75k miles on them? :sick:
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116

    One thing I've wondered, though... as some companies cut back on fleet sales, what if others didn't step up to meet that demand? Would all of us folks who need to rent cars for business or vacation travel be driving around in five-year-old cars with 75k miles on them?

    I think that is happening. The last Ford Fusion rental (Hertz) car I got had 53k, the Subaru Legacy rental (Budget) car I got this last July was an '07. It might be regional as well: I have always gotten a Ford in MI, a Hyundai in OH, and until the Subaru, a GM in CA (although that car was made when GM still had a stake in Subaru, I think). Eh I take that back, I have gotten a Fusion in CA too, but its been almost always GM vehicles. Everything recently has had a lot of miles on it though.

    Oh and there are differences in fleet sales. Fleet sales to Hertz, Enterprise, or what not are usually not so helpful, while sales to So Cal Edison, Cox Cable, AT&T, etc are usually more positive.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Yeah, I said pretty much the same thing a couple of days ago on this forum. I think Hyundai knew that with the all new model coming this spring they would have to sell the '10 Sonata at huge discounts so why not avoid the hassle and sell them at huge discounts in large chunks to rental fleets. Also, keeping the presses running pays the light bills and is also a way of advertising and creating that mainstream perception.

    The reason that the big 3 were so tied to rental fleets was because of union contracts. If they stopped the lines they had to pay the workers about 90% of what they usually made and layoffs were also difficult so they kept the presses running and sold them to rental fleets. Now comes Uncle Sam bailout, bankruptcy, union contracts void. They can now stop the presses without too much pain and less fleet sales. Those are my thoughts anyway....just adding 2 + 2.
  • pipibabypipibaby Member Posts: 1
    i'm planing to buy altima 2.5s, the dealer offered me 2009 altima 2.5s ODT: $20534, is this price resealable? or i still can get lower price through negotiation? and how to negotiate with dealer? i really have no idea how to do this? any tips? thanks
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