Midsize Sedans 2.0

jeffyscott · December 2009

Selling to rental fleets is not, I think, in itself a big negative. It is when the sales to the rental fleets are at very low prices and then the fleets can resell 1-2 year old cars at very cheap prices.

For example, it used to be one could, with no effort at all, buy a 1-2 year old Taurus for $10-11K. When that was an option, it made it difficult for Ford to get anywhere near MSRP on a similar new Taurus. It was a great deal for the consumer though...I know I was always tempted to buy one of those Tauri, rather than a new car.

mickeyrom · December 2009

Does KIA sell it's Optimas to rental fleets in the same way? If not, why do they depreciate even more than the Sonatas?My 2 and a half year old Optima EX is worth less than half of what I paid for it.

acdii · December 2009

Agreed, They make great cars, but lack a bit in the suspension department. The Veracruz I have is a far better car than the Lexus RX350 I test drove with one exception, rear suspension noise over bumps. The ride is good, smooth, handles well, but when you hit a sharp bump, you get a clunk in the rear. That is my only real complaint about the entire car. So far after nearly 2 years owning it, will be in Feb, the only thing I have had them work on was the radio, the AM filter died and got very noisy, so they replaced he radio, but damaged the steering wheel in the process, so they replaced that as well. So Hyundai needs to work on the suspension and their service to get ahead of the other companies.

jeffyscott · December 2009

Maybe you overpaid

Where are you getting the value from?

I think Kia just has a bad reputation. It is the one brand that my kids (ages 20-25) uniformly indicate they would not want to buy "because they are crap". I am not saying this is true, but that is the impression they have of the brand. They do not say this about Hyundai.

I seem to recall reading that the Mazda6 was pouring into the rental fleets at the time I bought mine in early 2007. Yet, according to edmunds, my 2007 Mazda6 with 22K mi has a trade in value of about 75% of what I paid, a private party value of about 85% of what I paid, and a dealer retail value of about 95% of what I paid.

Hertz is also selling 2008s with far more miles than I have (35-40K) for about 75% of what I paid. I did buy at a lower than average price. If I'd paid what edmunds indicated the average price was at the time, then I think trade in value would be more like 65%.

This goes back to an old debate here...that your personal depreciation rate can vary by a lot, depending on the price you pay when you buy.

backy · December 2009

So true. After nearly six years, my 2004 Elantra (marginally mid-sized, so on topic

) is worth over 50% of its purchase price in a private-party sale (per KBB, Edmunds, and local prices). But my purchase price was a good one. I got just over 50% of my purchase price when I sold my 2001 Elantra after 5-1/2 years, and my deal on that one wasn't nearly as good as on the 2004.

I recall in 2007-8, it was possible to buy a well-equipped Mazda6i Sport for just over $16k, for a $22k car. Do that kind of thing, and you won't have any problem on resale value.

"Buy low, sell high."

m6user · December 2009

Nissan recently announced that they were adding as a $400 option a 5" screen Bosch made GPS to, I think the term was, their "most popular cars". The articles I've read mentioned Sentra, Versa and Cube. Has anyone read anything about the Altima getting this?

The unit had bluetooth for phone, ability to add back-up camera, touchscreen and the reviewer from the Detroit News was very postive. A 5" screen is small versus most installed units(except for Suzukis) but is a lot bigger than a 3.5" or 4.3" portable units that don't have intergrated bluetooth/back up camera. Quite a move by Nissan.

I'm thinking that they will keep the more expensive GPS units in the Altima, Maxima etc(lot more profit) but it may push prices down on these kinds of systems going forward. I like it.

jeffyscott · December 2009

Suzuki started this more sensible idea, I believe.

m6user · December 2009

A 5" screen is small versus most installed units(except for Suzukis

That's why I mentioned Suzuki in my post. Their's is kind of a hybrid though. A Garmin unit that is installed in the dash but can be taken out for portability. Doesn't have the interconnected(with sound system) bluetooth for phones or the back-up camera capability to my knowledge.

jeffyscott · December 2009

Sorry, I totally missed your mention of suzuki. I am not up on the details of these things and I was assuming when you indicated it was a smaller unit that it was really just a spot where they installed a portable one like Suzuki. I guess that is not the case and this is just a smaller permanent unit. I actually think the Suzuki set-up makes the most sense, if I actually desired one of these things, I'd rather just have a convenient place to put a portable one.

But, $400 makes it a lot more reasonable that the ridiculous $2000 that people have been paying for these things.

m6user · December 2009

I'm retired now and am taking more car trips and I use a portable gps unit. It keeps me company to some degree and helps a lot when I get off the beaten path and don't want to keep stopping to read maps. Kind of fun actually. Comes in handy when you're looking up ahead for certain gas stations or restaurants near exits. Kind of a toy I admit, but as toys go it's fairly inexpensive. I also use a portable, bluetooth speaker for my cell. It works well on trips when I take advantage of the drive time on weekends and call relatives and talk for an hour or so on the freeway handsfree.

It's kind of a pain hiding the portable gps unit all the time when you stop though. That's why I'm looking to get everything integrated in my next vehicle. Not necessary but just something I would like to have. I usually keep cars for 7-10 years. How many more new cars am I going to buy in my lifetime....might as well have what I want within reason. And you're right, $2000 is not within reason IMO.

Altima is still a car of interest to me and that's why I'm wondering if anybody knows about the new Nissan gps unit possibly being available in that. Like I said, I don't think it will be but I can hope.

backy · December 2009

We have a TomTom unit that fits very nicely (via round rubber base) into a drink holder, then plugs into the outlet in the console. Cost under $100 a year ago, now I see in Black Friday sales they can be had for under $70. Just a basic nav unit but does its job well, and we can use it in any car. So I can see why Nissan is taking this step to reduce the price of in-dash GPS in their lower-end cars. They can still make a profit on them and many more people might buy it at the lower price point. I'd never go for the $2000-ish factory GPS systems--not enough value there for me. Also Bluetooth is increasingly becoming standard or a low-cost option. Note it's standard on the Forte (mid-sized interior!!) and I think Hyundai said Bluetooth would be standard on the 2011 Sonata, but I'm not sure on that. I expect within 2-3 years we'll see Bluetooth standard on nearly every mid-sized family sedan, except the "value leader" trims ala Mazda6 SV.

jeffyscott · December 2009

The only thing I have seen (and maybe you have already seen this yourself) says:
"The only question that remains is whether the Altima will be available with this system, the $1,780 technology package that is required for navigation on the Altima may be too lucrative for Nissan to give up."

http://blog.pricewheels.com/2009/12/01/nissan-to-offer-400-navigation-system-on-- small-cars/

tenpin288 · December 2009

Don't know if you can still get in or how much is left but there is a webcast presentation of the 2011 Sonata unveiling going on right now at

http://www.hyundaimedialive.com

berri · December 2009

Selling to rental fleets is not, I think, in itself a big negative. It is when the sales to the rental fleets are at very low prices and then the fleets can resell 1-2 year old cars at very cheap prices.

I think you hit it on the head here. I've gained or lost interest in a vehicle after I rented it. I also bought a year old Taurus early in the decade for $10,500 or about $5 grand less than a new one. It wasn't a bad car either, but did start having too many nickel and dime issues after around 60K. I believe the newer Ford's have improved in longevity though.

berri · December 2009

You can go though a lot of portable GPS before you spend what an integrated one costs. Also, GPS updates are rather expensive if you're keeping it for 6 or 7 years. Tom Tom are decent units. I think Garmin are better, but they tend to run a bit more.

m6user · December 2009

I think Hyundai said Bluetooth would be standard on the 2011 Sonata, but I'm not sure on that

Your memory is correct. Following is from the Hyundai release at the LA auto show

First vehicle in its class to offer a Bluetooth hands-free phone system standard

It's also interesting that the SE model will have 2 more of each hp/ft torque due to dual exhaust. Wonder what could be done with even less backpressure down the road? Also, they hint at bringing a turbocharged version of the 2.4 on line down the road, possibly late 2010. No hp estimates but I would guess about 240. They get 210 out of the 2.0 in the Genesis.

m6user · December 2009

Note to self: Read press releases thoroughly!

The Turbo that the Sonata is going to get is the 2.0 not a 2.4 as I mentioned previously. This engine in the Genesis coupe makes 210 ponies. Doesn't seem like that would be so exciting versus 200 in the SE version unless the torque is out of sight.

backy · December 2009

Yeah, but you get those cool dual exhausts too!

Now that I am driving around in my new (for me) 2007 Sonata with all of 162 ponies, which is paltry by current standards in this class, I can say I have no want for power. I have yet to need to floor it. It's actually too quick/fast for DW--she has a hard time keeping it under the speed limit. So 200 (or 198) ponies in a lighter car, with more torque... not a problem.

m6user · December 2009

I do have dual exhausts on my '07 Mazda6 I4 with all of about 156hp and man do they make it fly.

Don't really have a need for more power but given similar price at time of purchase and 35mpg, I will take the 198 hp all day long. Good luck with your new car.

iluvmysephia1 · December 2009

I think Kia just has a bad reputation. It is the one brand that my kids (ages 20-25) uniformly indicate they would not want to buy "because they are crap". I am not saying this is true, but that is the impression they have of the brand. They do not say this about Hyundai.

Umm...it's not 1998 anymore people! What the? I have owned two new Kia's and found them to be good and reliable vehicles. No expenses sprung on you besides regular maintenance.

You may very well get a recall or a TSB but of course these are fully funded by the vehicle manufacturer. What is different from Ford, GM, Toyota or Honda in that regard, though? Yikes. I thought we had grown up and past that kind of poo-poo attitude towards Kia Motors of South Korea but apparently not.

Really, reliable powertrains are provided, trim pieces don't fall off, things stay together as they should, etc. Public perceptions can be wrong and/or, in this case, just plain wrong as all get out.

stephen987 · December 2009

Most cars--especially in the midsize sedan class--have reliability and quality far beyond what would've been considered "average" twenty years ago. Manufacturers that couldn't meet these baseline expectations have been driven out of the market. I have seen no objectively verifiable evidence that either the Sonata or the Optima are in any way substandard in these areas. Perhaps not "best in class" but certainly midpack or better. There are a few dissatisfied customers--as there are for any brand--but in the aggregate, both cars are perfectly acceptable when it comes to reliability and assembly quality.

When people complain about Kia or Hyundai quality, they generally are speaking without personal experience--or at least without experience related to the current models from these brands. I would not hesitate to purchase a vehicle from either of these two brands on the basis of reliability or overall quality.

Dealer service, however, is another matter. Hyundai and Kia dealers in my area tend to come and go, with alarming frequency. The same is true of Subaru, Suzuki, and Mitsubishi. Without easy access to a trustworthy, stable and modern dealership, I had to write off these brands in my most recent search, and wound up buying a Honda.

If the dealership situation stabilizes locally, you can bet that I will seriously consider the Sonata and the Optima (and the Fusion, and several others) when the time comes to replace my wife's '02 Accord.

jeffyscott · December 2009

I'm just reporting what the kids say. Other crappy cars that the youngsters have noted are Saturn Ion and some Dodge/Chrysler cars (apparently they still make cars, who knew...

). Oh yeah and then there is Daewoo.

Their impressions are partly based on cars friends of theirs have had. I do have to add that the one time I had a rental Optima it was horrible and the next time I was renting I said I did not want a Kia, please! I passed on the free "upgrade" and took a Mazda3 :shades: .

jeffyscott · December 2009

I do have dual exhausts on my '07 Mazda6 I4 with all of about 156hp and man do they make it fly.

It does look nicer with the fake dual exhaust, though. They dropped that from the new 4 cyl, I think.

I probably should have gotten the rear wing spoiler, even though I don't like the look, as that'd make it go even faster.

aviboy97 · December 2009

It does look nicer with the fake dual exhaust, though. They dropped that from the new 4 cyl, I think.

It is fake....I love the way it looks on my 2005 as well. I wish the 2009+ Mazda6 has the dual exhaust on the 4 cyl just like the 6 cyl. Looks so much better.

I'm getting closer and closer to pulling the trigger on a new 2010 Mazda6 i Touring Plus. I just wish they made is in the 6-speed :-(

jkobty2 · December 2009

I bought s 2009 mazda6 last year when they first came out. I was impressed with the styling, ride and handling and nice interior. I have had no real issues with it after one year. Only complaint is an annoying engine noise (tapping or clicking) on low rpm takeoff, and a light knock at idle. Of course mazda says this is normal.
Comparatively my now 11 year old Daewoo Leganza still runs as smooth as day one. the 2.2L engine in the Leganza has better low end takeoff than the mazda, I do not have to push it as hard to get the same acceleration. And even after 11 years it still sounds better than the one year old Mazda. Only scheduled maintenance for 11 years. Changed the timing belt twice right on schedule every 100,000 KM. The most reliable

iluvmysephia1 · December 2009

my, my, my but look what the cat drug in! Long time no talk to!

You've already answered my real question for you, that being do you still own your Leganza?

How much did that '09 Maz6 run you up there in Ontario?

jkobty2 · December 2009

Hey dude. The mazda cost me $29,000 Canadian dollars. I got the GT model with the luxury package which includes the Bose, Bluetooth, nice 18" rims.
I know it is probably cheaper in the states even after you factor in the dollar exchange rate.
It is a really nice car. I just wish it had a Korean engine in it

I wish I had driven the V6 model before I made a decision. But that is also about 3 grand more.
The Mazda is our new family car, but I am finding it too big for my everyday work commute. I am thinking of giving it to my wife in a year when her current lease expires, and then get me whatever nice small Korean car is available at the time.
My current choice is the KIA Forte Koup SX. It is one hot pocket rocket.
The Leganza is currently being driven by my sister. I still think it is the best built car in the 20th century. And it still looks great 11 year later.

iluvmysephia1 · December 2009

the 1999 Daewoo Leganza, man. And how well you take care of it. And it is a midsize car that fits nicely in to this Edmunds thread.

Here is the Forte I would buy, but I'd get a red one. Not necessarily with a manual tranny but with a sunroof and capable stereo.

jkobty2 · December 2009

yes it is nice, but I found a big difference with the attention to detail and material quality between the sedan and the Koup.
namely
1. Koup has nicer styling both front and rear especially the sx trim
2. Koup has nicer leather sports seats with red stitching. Looks really upscale
3. The Dashboard in the Koup has softer plastics, also more upscale.
4. The controls and buttons in the koup feel nicer to the touch, also more upscale materials.

You know me, I look at the detail. Plus I am having a midlife crisis, and I need a car that looks sporty.

iluvmysephia1 · December 2009

oh, I didn't know that you'd already looked at both models. And I have been corrected about the manual tranny problems in these new Kia's. I would've taken those complaints with a grain of salt, anyway, until test-driving the cars myself. I remember the shifters on both the '99 Sephia and the '01 Sportage 4X4, and both needed a bit getting used to. Not a lot, but a bit. But apparently these are non-issues to the person who corrected me. I kind of thought that they would end up being much a bit about nothing.

Both of my Kia's were fine to shift, never had a mechanical problem with either rig's clutch or tranny, either.

Yeah, the Forte Koup is one hot lookin' Mama, the car is smokin'! Should mix in well with yer midlife crisis, man.

8babies1dog · December 2009

Just as a suggestion, search "real world prices" buy owners
for the car your looking at, (search the net). I also made a post
about how I do my car buying business, I was called "hardazz"
by a fellow forum member (which is not an issue). I don't think
everyone wants or can do it this way, it takes a little "guts" but
I do have plenty of that, i.e. (US military) debating. Look back
to my comment on this thread and read some replies!

8babies1dog
nov 28 2009 (9:36 pm)

Feel free to reply, I have big enough shoulders to handle any
good or bad responses.

I hope everyone will enjoy a great holiday season and are able
to share LOVE with family and friends! Gary
Lets think about our brave service people abroad that have their
lives on the line for us and the whole free world everyday of the
year. Extra holiday greeting to you, please return to us safe and
sound, thanks very much for protecting us with your very life, "LOVE
YOU" !!!!!

mickeyrom · December 2009

Never mind...I enlarged and then it made some sense.

anonymousposts · December 2009

jkobty... long time no see. Seeing you post brought up the good ole days of the Leganza vs. Accord "discussions" we used to have! I am so amazed that the Leganza is still in your family. We have been through about 20 cars in the same time frame!

iluvmysephia1 · December 2009

really, man, I think that this man deserves some kudos for his 1999 Daewoo Leganza and the fact that it's still here and running well. It shows that someone with some passion for a rig can really make a difference in that rig's lifetime. jkobty has pain-stakingly(I'll be you can tell us some stories about that, jkobty!!) shown some luv to his Leganza and maintained/repaired whatever it's needed down through the years so it can still be running competently today. That is awesome, who of us can reject his statement that this car is the car of the 20th century, then? If all of the elements that make up a great car are there for jkobty, and they're workng for him on this car, then so be it, it's the car of the 21st Century. Rock On! That's concentration and that's luv for a particular car! And that's perseverance as well!

jkobty, I must tell you, I've strayed to a Japanese car for my favorite rig! It's a 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS in Rally Red metallic paintjob and automatic CVT transmission. Titanium paddle shifters, 650-watt Rockford Fosgate stereo, leather-wrapped gearknob and steering wheel, sunroof, foglights and wraparound bodykit, this car has me firmly by the shorthairs and is rocking my world. I simply love it and will give it whatever it needs to keep it running optimally. :shades:

With me it's nothing nationalistic that can run my automotive world, it is simply the best car wins for that particular year or point in time.

benjaminh · December 2009

I own two Accord sedans--an 02 LX 5 MT and an 08 EXL navi 5MT. Love both cars. I had some lemons over the years from VW, GM, and Ford, and so every day I get in one of our Accords I'm a happy man.

Mr. Soichiro Honda was an engineer, and a good one, and it seems to me that at Honda the engineers maybe have more power than at many other car companies.

When I test drove a Camry back in 02 when I bought our first Accord I could feel and sense the difference. The Camry seemed fancier, but the Accord had much sharper handling, and a nicer to shift manual transmission.

Buying the 02 Accord got rid of one of our lemons (a first year 2000 Focus--a nightmare beyond belief), but it wasn't until 2008 when we could get rid of our 1988 Oldsmobile 98, which wasn't as much of a lemon the Focus, but was mainly just a worn out old car.

Our 02 has only 60,000 miles on it, and a lot of life is left. It doesn't, however, have many safety features found on most cars today, like abs, stability, etc. I was planning on waiting until the next generation Accord arrives, probably in 2013, to replace the 02. And that's probably what we'll do.

But the 2011 Sonata really gotten my attention. I like the styling of it a lot. And then I found out a little bit about Hyundai's new direct injection engine for it--which not only has more power, but is expected to get 35 mpg on the hwy! That's the same as a Honda Fit! The rest of the Sonata package looks impressive on paper as well, with things like bluetooth available even on the entry model Sonata (love the bluetooth on our 08 Accord).

Anyway, the new Sonata does look impressive in terms of style, features, and performance on paper:

http://hyundainews.com/Media_Kits/2011_Models/Sonata/Press_Release.asp

Whether it can really be a competitor to the Accord I doubt for the following reasons--I still think Honda's quality is the top in its price area, I think the Accord's suspension is excellent, the Accord's steering is precise, and I don't think anyone makes a manual transmission as nice as that on the current Accord for a similar price.

Anyway, just wondering whether the new Sonata is going to provide real competition or not. It seems like in terms of engine technology that Hyundai may in some ways have gone beyond Honda already, which is a big shock to me. When will Accords get direct injection engines? Are there any drawbacks to this technology?

jeffyscott · December 2009

And then I found out a little bit about Hyundai's new direct injection engine for it--which not only has more power, but is expected to get 35 mpg on the hwy!

The Fusion S gets 34 mpg hwy. Given the rounding, the difference may be insignificant.

acdii · December 2009

The Fusion Sport with the 3.5 V6 can get 31 MPG on the highway. Surprised me when it did.

So if Honda is so great, tell me why is it out of 14 reviews, it only scores an 8.5, yet the Fusion scores a 9.2 out of 86 reviews? Don't be so sure that the Accord is as great as you make it out to be, the Fusion is a damned fine car now, and compared to a Camry, is a much finer car too. IOW don't get tunnel vision thinking only the Honda is great, Ford is right up there and ahead of Toyota in quality and reliability. Hyundai also makes a good car, at least the Veracruz I own has been a great car, the wipers could use an improvement, they are proprietary to the Veracruz only and hard to get, but when in good shape work great. Not much of a complaint is it. It is snowing today, and it is days like this that remind me that I haven't changed the damned things yet.:mad: Why is it the drivers wiper is the one that always seems to go bad? :confuse:

benjaminh · December 2009

Fusion gets 34!? Wow. That is good. I think the Accord is still at 31. The Accord is a little bigger, but it's a shock to not see the Accord at or near the top of the mark when it comes to mpg.

One area where the Honda may--or may not--be ahead of some others is for steering and handling. I think most cars in this class have gone to an electric system, which saves cost, weight, money, complexity, etc., but as far as I hear doesn't give quite as good of a feel for the road as a traditional hydraulic system, which is what I think the Accord still uses.

m6user · December 2009

Notice that it's the Fusion S and the Fusion S only that gets 34mpg. It's the mpg economy model that is made for higher mpg by utilizing high mpg tires(usually harder and narrower) and some weight saving stuff which I'm not all that up on. The other Fusion I4 models get about the same as the Accord I believe.

From what I've read, the neat thing about the new Sonata is that it's supposed to get 35mpg on all versions and with more hp than all the others in it's class except for the Passat. The Passat Turbo takes premium fuel or at least it's recommended I think. So if it works well they will be far ahead of the competition IMO from a drivetrain aspect.

stephen987 · December 2009

. . . unless Ford can find a way to put an EcoBoost four into the Fusion within a year or so.

m6user · December 2009

That would be sweet as well.

benjaminh · December 2009

I'm out of the loop--what's the ecoboost 4?

Impressive economy from Ford's 6!

stephen987 · December 2009

Edmunds article on the EcoBoost four-cylinder claims 230 bhp from a 2.0L engine, with the fuel economy of a normally aspirated four.

jeffyscott · December 2009

From what I've read, the neat thing about the new Sonata is that it's supposed to get 35mpg on all versions

If true, then that would be a bigger achievement, unless they are just equipping all of them with high mpg tires, etc.

Speaking of that and the Fusion S, has anyone seen any braking tests comparing the S to another version. I'm guessing if those high mpg tires might mean less effective braking. I suppose the high mpg tires might also negatively affect handling.

jeffyscott · December 2009

The Fusion Sport with the 3.5 V6 can get 31 MPG on the highway.

I think every car exceeds it EPA highway mpg figure, when driven at moderate and steady freeway speeds. If that Sonata is rated 35, then on a freeway cruise maybe it'll get 40.

kdhspyder · December 2009

...is due here next Fall. But from the recently announced specs how is this new entry going to compete in this category with a 188hp 2.4L SIDI engine that is supposed to get 30mph Highway?

To me this vehicle would have be be drop dead gorgeous, Lexus/BMW quality inside and out and handle like it was on rails otherwise it will be killed by just about every other midsizer on the road including GM's own Malibu.

Why? The rest of the industry has V6's with 250+ hp and fuel economy ratings in the 30 mpg range. The Sonata is dropping its V6's in favor of offering better fuel economy approaching 40 mpg. This sounds so 1995-ish on GM's part. Do they think that Buick buyers are stupid? How would this launch go if gas spikes up over $3.50 next summer?

kdhspyder · December 2009

The current 2.5L Camry gets a real world 37-39 mpg at moderate highway cruising speeds of ~65 mph. I agree that every vehicle now can exceed the very conservative EPA numbers.

benjaminh · December 2009

Hmmm....I guess so. My 08 Accord is rated at 31 hwy, and 30-31 is about what I get--but that's at 75 mpg, ac on, 4 passengers, + luggage.

kdhspyder · December 2009

Yep that's a lot of weight, draw on the engine and above 70 mph drag is a much bigger factor. That's what the new EPA values are supposed to represent, typical or even worst-case scenarios.

m6user · December 2009

The rest of the industry has V6's with 250+ hp and fuel economy ratings in the 30 mpg range

Not to be picky but can you name one V6 w/250+ hp that is rated at 30mpg or better by the EPA? I'm not talking real world cause that can be all over the map but actual rated by EPA at 30 or better.

I totally agree about the Buick. GM had better start matching up w/ the competition with Buick or it's going to be history. You gotta have something special if you're going to try to market yourself as a semi premium brand like they are trying to do with the LaCrosse especially when you've got a negative perception to live down.

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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