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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I see GM is offering dealers $7000 incentive on unsold Saturns and Pontiacs. But I read that the catch is the cars have to first move to a rental or loaner situation, meaning they would be sold as a used car. Still, might be a way to pick up a leftover Aura or G6 at a really good price. I've seen very low prices for G6s already, before this incentive was announced--around $13k for a $22k G6. They may not be the greatest mid-sizers available, but at that kind of price, might make sense. Long-term parts and service availability is a question in my mind, though.

    This reminds me... maybe it's time to retire the photo of the Aura to the right?? How about putting the all-new Legacy there, or even the 2011 Optima--to pair up with the photo of the 2011 Sonata? ;)
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    This reminds me... maybe it's time to retire the photo of the Aura to the right?? How about putting the all-new Legacy there, or even the 2011 Optima--to pair up with the photo of the 2011 Sonata?

    My vote's for the Legacy. :)
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    GM is offering dealers $7000 incentive on unsold Saturns and Pontiacs

    Even though they are requiring the dealer to retitle and sell as used, this is likely going to screw over all recent Pontiac and Saturn buyers big time on depreciation. Probably won't help similar Chevy offerings owners either at resale. Thanks GM, not only did you suck up tax dollars, but now you're hurting your customers as well - Nice! Glad your eye is on the customer - LOL
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    If they bought recently they know they are taking a chance on resale value as the resale on these cars was already in the tanks. Resale values go down on model changes or deletions, let alone when the company goes out of business. However, agree that 7K adds salt to the wound.

    Hey, look at the upside. The taxpayers could get their money back sooner if all this works. ;)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Somewhat related to the demise of Saturn... the main beneficiary is Buick, which gets the Opel Insignia, now tweaked as the Regal, rather than Saturn getting it as the next-gen Aura as GM originally planned. In photos the Regal looks like a credible entry in the mid-sized class, albeit at the high end--but maybe not too different in price from a similarly-equipped Accord, Camry, Mazda6, Passat, Altima, or Malibu. The most interesting comparison though might be with the 2011 Sonata, since both the Regal and Sonata are going with DI I4s only, at least initially, with a turbo I4 in the wings. They are almost the same length, although the Sonata has more interior space. Good summary comparing the Regal and Sonata here:

    http://blogs.insideline.com/straightline/2009/12/2011-buick-regal-vs-2011-hyunda- i-sonata-we-compare-the-specs.html

    How about it? Will the Regal sell against the likes of upper-trim Sonatas, Camcords, Passat, etc.? Or will it just steal sales from the LaCrosse?
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    How about it? Will the Regal sell against the likes of upper-trim Sonatas, Camcords, Passat, etc.? Or will it just steal sales from the LaCrosse?

    My guess is that they'll overprice it initially and blow another opportunity.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    It will be interesting to see how the Regal is priced. It's supposed to be slotted under the LaCrosse, which starts at about $30k for the CXL. I read the Regal will be available only in CXL trim at first. So say the Regal starts at $27k. But that is pretty loaded, with leather etc. For comparison, an Accord EX-L I4 is $27.5k, and the Malibu LTZ I4 starts at $27.7k. So if the Regal can start at around $27-28k, that would be in the ballpark. In fact, at that price it could steal sales from the Malibu.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    For comparison, an Accord EX-L I4 is $27.5k, and the Malibu LTZ I4 starts at $27.7k. So if the Regal can start at around $27-28k, that would be in the ballpark.

    But real-world transaction prices for both of those are closer to $25k. . .
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, I was comparing MSRPs, since real-world prices are highly variable. I expect the Regal will also be available at a discount, once the "gotta be the first on my block with a Regal" buyers are satisfied.
  • dodgeman07dodgeman07 Member Posts: 574
    So if the Regal can start at around $27-28k, that would be in the ballpark.

    ============================

    In a solid economic climate, $27K for a 2011 Regal might make the cut. In 2010 in won't. Buick needs to bring the Regal in under $25K and I believe they will offer a CXL with the 182HP DI 4 powerplant for $24,995.

    It's what they need to do to grow the brand and start competing again. The free credit line from the U.S. Treasury will run dry in 10 months and counting......
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Consider that a 2010 Sonata Limited (old design) I4 with mats is $25,370, and as I noted the Malibu LTZ I4 is over $27k. So I don't follow your reasoning that the Regal CXL should list for under $25k to be competitive. That would certainly qualify as best deal around in the mid-sized class, and at that price Buick might sell all the Regals they can make. But at what cost? It would cannibalize sales of their own LaCrosse as well as the Malibu.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    ...once the "gotta be the first on my block with a Regal" buyers are satisfied

    ...all 3 of them? ;)
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    Can you look up on the internet, say that Sonata is 18,800, and then go to a dealer and ask to see the 18,800 cars? I highly doubt it.

    Malibu is currently 3000 or so more than a Sonata base to base. The rebate cuts that down to 1300-1400 more for the Malibu. The rebate ends Monday. Is Sonata cutting into everybody's sales due to lower price?

    I'd like to find those G6's for 14k. Too bad in midwest all dealers sold out long ago. I'd have to go to where D3 cars are shunned to find one left.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Might be a lot more than that--at least 7 or 8. :D Seriously, it looks like a pretty fine car to me, on paper and in photos. Might appeal to someone who wants to buy "USA", doesn't mind an I4, and/or doesn't like the styling of the 2011 Sonata. The Regal's lines are less polarizing than the Sonata's.
  • 8babies1dog8babies1dog Member Posts: 122
    I beg to differ, Hyundai USA as of now has only 1 plant and it is in
    Alabama. Yes they do build the SUV, but if you read my original post
    on this subject you will see I wrote only Sonata in the (car class). Now
    someone please correct me if I'm wrong. Backi had already clarified the
    SUV issue. But thanks for bringing it up.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Honda Dealer...One Person
    the mechanics.....who gets their Honda fixed? If they didn't have a Honda it would break less?

    Dealerships employ a lot more than one person. Quit drinking the UAW koolaid. You don't really believe that, do you?

    honda assy workers....you mean robots half the time

    So you don't want any automation in US assembly plants? Assemble cars by hand? That's really forward-looking for this country.

    engine plant workers....5% of the car including materials. When will that become robotized? When 2-3% is worth going after...pretty soon.

    So some jobs in US are important, and others are not?

    Electric power plant employees....one person per state
    trash men.....pollute our country for profits sent to Japan. This may be the Best part of Colonizing, aside from tax abatements followed by a recession to justify a much smaller training program.

    It's obvious that it is not about jobs, it's about the jobs YOU want to save. UAW jobs from failed companies.

    advertising agency....at least somebody who went to college got a job, or does Japan own the advertising seller?

    Madison County only lost 31,000 auto jobs. No pain from that.

    You've still not answered an earlier question. If efficiency is unimportant, then why not hire 50K more workers for GM? Subsidize the line with taxes from high earning US citizens. GM and C are laying off. How can you let them do that? I realize that the success of the parent company is not important to you.
  • jona57jona57 Member Posts: 194
    Late to discussion-but here goes:
    Looked for nice mid-size to replace my beloved 01 Chrysler 300M. Wanted near-luxury appointments, fun drive, cargo room with fold-down seat (for my bike), and 4 cyl (hate sending $$$ to oil barons-foreign or domestic). Midsize really is sweet-spot of market with many great vehicles. Brief impressions-
    Malibu- Nice styling in/out, solid handling, good ride, but high net street price for LTZ (leather, top-end stereo)
    Aura/G6- Malibu orphan clones,VERY limited inventory left,? residual value?
    Camry- Quiet, smooth ride, but soft handling, ugly (subjective) & high street price (leather)
    Fusion- Nice styling in/out, solid handling, cool ambient lighting, Sych stereo, ride a little stiff- deal-breaker: long front seat cushion was very uncomfortable for wife (short legs)
    Sonata ('10)- Quiet, smooth ride, roomy, bland styling, great value (esp w/nav), soft handling (but better than Camry), 5yr warranty, 4cyl unrefined under acceleration but 6 was sweet with decent mpg (EPA 29 hwy).
    Mazda 6- Sporty, solid handling but stiffer ride, pricey w/leather.
    Accord- quality interior, strong 4, solid handling, but pricey & rear seat pass-through small with top-end stereo (amp/speakers intrude).
    Sebring- Limited has nice leather interior, quiet, top crash test ratings, but drivetrain a little unrefined. Might be a value at lower price.

    Bought: '10 Altima 2.5S (leather, all options except nav)- Nice styling in/out, great Bose stereo, sharp handling with decent ride, quick 4 cyl (only ~1 sec slower 0-60 vs most 6's), quiet, great real-world mpg for midsize, rear camera,dual chrome exhaust; CVT drives nice & has simulated 6sp manual mode to play. Downsides are limited rear seat headroom for tall adults & no power passenger's seat (also true of Sonata & Accord 4).
  • dodgeman07dodgeman07 Member Posts: 574
    So I don't follow your reasoning that the Regal CXL should list for under $25k to be competitive.

    ----------------------------------

    A couple of points in the reasoning. GM needs to get away from rebates soon. Say they put a $28K sticker on the new Regal - they will have to offer $2K rebates to move them - what do they gain?

    The Regal is a very small mid-size car, barely larger than a compact. The Malibu is a larger car and the Sonata is almost a full size car. Your price quotes include the destination charge which advertised pricing often does not. Offering a $24,995 Regal will help get customers in the door - something GM desperately needs. Yeah they'll tack on a $800 destination charge to make $25.8K, but that's still a good price.

    If GM continues on the path they're on, they have less the 24 months to live. They need revolutionary change and conquest sales in 2010. "Steady as she goes" won't get it done.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I think you replied to the wrong post.

    Regardless... I don't think introducing top-notch vehicles like the Malibu and Regal, and straying from the mid-sized family car class, the LaCrosse, CTS, Acadia/Enclave/Traverse, Equinox/Terrain, and the Cruze, is "steady as she goes." Provide a quality car, and you can charge the going rate for them. Fire sale prices are only needed when the car is not competitive.
  • dodgeman07dodgeman07 Member Posts: 574
    Yeah - I did reply to the wrong post.

    I realize GM is building competitive vehicles today and has been for the last 4 or 5 years. I drive one and like it.

    GM has burnt so many bridges over the last 30 years that building a good vehicle (finally) and expecting to charge the same price or more as proven (and unsubsidized) competitors will lead to more rebates and incentives to move inventory.

    GM has a 50/50 chance of making it through the next two years. The gov't gravy train (aka Obama Express) will be de-railed very soon. GM needs a Hyundai/Kia marketing approach for their remaining brands (except Cadillac). Their current marketing does not do the brand's justice and their website is poor.

    The Regal will not sell at high volumes. That slot falls to the Cruze which ironically is coming in with identical EPA Interior Volume numbers (111 cu.ft.). I hope GM survives. The Cruze might be my next car. For $18K you'll get 90% of the car a $28K Regal will be.

    P.S. I agree that most Regals we'll see on lots next summer will be $28K-$29K.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    >to charge the same price or more as proven (and unsubsidized) competitors

    Which of those competitors are unsubsidized? Haven't most other companies received subsidy from their governments (Japan) at least Toyota and Honda? If not now, they did in the years ago past when they were selling into the US market.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Once again, this conversation belongs in Auto News. Going forward, off topic posts of this nature will be removed without notice. Thank you for your cooperation.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    *Respectfully bows down*

    Thank you!

    One more thing: Will the Aura on the right be replaced? I'm still voting Legacy for it's replacement...
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I don't know about the Legacy... good car, but smaller market share compared to the Optima and probably the new Regal. Maybe it would be more fair to replace the Aura with another GM car... like the Regal.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I don't know about the Legacy... good car, but smaller market share compared to the Optima and probably the new Regal. Maybe it would be more fair to replace the Aura with another GM car... like the Regal.

    I'm all for the Legacy. Out of the current cars there, the Passat and the Mazda6 have very very small market shares. The Optima is too close to the Sonata, IMO, It's like having the Fusion and Milan up there. I know that the Milan and Fusion are closer then the Optima and Sonata, but, I think you get the idea.

    The Regal might be a complete bust.

    Put a check in the box for Legacy for me!
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If you are going by sales volume, the Mazda6 outsells the Legacy. The Passat does have a small volume, fewer than 1000 a month. Maybe we should replace the Passat with the Legacy?

    I'll bet the Regal will easily outsell the likes of the Legacy and Mazda6. The Legacy sold only 30k units last year, the Mazda6 35k.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Winners and Losers in the midsized auto segment...Who were they and why?

    Of the offerings from the top 7 makers GM, T, F, H, N, C-F, H

    In 2008 the midsized autos accounted for 1,595,000 sales
    In 2009 the midsized autos accounted for 1,340,000 sales - 16%

    However not every maker was -16%. Who got who's sales in 2009?
    Should have lost .. Actually lost
    Camry ..... -70K ...... -81K ....Net : -11K
    Accord..... -60K ...... -83K ....Net : -23K
    Altima...... -43K ...... -66K ....Net : -23K
    Fusion...... -24K ...... +33K ...Net : +57K
    Malibu...... -28K ...... -16K ....Net : +12K
    Sebring.... -11K ...... -45K ....Net : -34K
    Sonata.... -19K ...... +3K ......Net : +22K

    The Malibu got 12K sales from the Camry
    The Fusion and the Sonata ate the lunches of the Accord, Altima and Sebring.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I think this shows buyers are finally waking up to the fact that there are many excellent alternatives in the mid-sized sedan ranks. It didn't hurt that the Fusion was refreshed for 2009 (and was already a very good car), as was the Sonata, and the Malibu is relatively new and also much improved over its prior generation. Also the Sonata and to some extent the Fusion and Malibu have a real-world price advantage over the Camcords. Which doesn't hurt in today's economic reality.
  • gooddeal2gooddeal2 Member Posts: 750
    Also the Sonata and to some extent the Fusion and Malibu have a real-world price advantage over the Camcords. Which doesn't hurt in today's economic reality.

    I agreed...but I'm not sure how many people actually want to get these cars instead of the Camry, Altima, or the Accord b/c of their tight budgets OR b/c they think that the Sonata, Fusion or Malibu is as good as or even better than the other three.
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    I agreed...but I'm not sure how many people actually want to get these cars instead of the Camry, Altima, or the Accord b/c of their tight budgets OR b/c they think that the Sonata, Fusion or Malibu is as good as or even better than the other three.

    Their loss :) Knowing what the Camry is like personally, and knowing the Fusion is a better care, i can thumb my noses at them and say, sucker! :P
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    The Legacy sold only 30k units last year, the Mazda6 35k.

    I had wondered about the comment some one had made implying that the Legacy was a much bigger seller than the Mazda6. That did not sound right to me, I had thought both were pretty minor players and probably about equal in terms of sales numbers. But then I found this:

    http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html#autosalesC

    which I had thought showed 86,000+ for the Legacy, but now I see that figure includes the Outback. In fact, assuming your figure is correct, the Outback accounts for the majority of that 86,000.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, I used the sales numbers widely reported at the start of January which showed "Legacy" sales at about 30k for 2009 and Mazda6 at about 35k. It does get confusing when the automakers lump different cars together, e.g. Toyota lumps Corolla and Matrix together, Hyundai lumps Genesis sedan and coupe (which are much different cars), and Subaru the Legacy and Outback. Based on that, Hyundai would be within its rights to lump the Sonata and Sonata-based Santa Fe together. :P I wonder if Honda will lump the Accord and Crosstour sales together?
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I wonder if Honda will lump the Accord and Crosstour sales together?

    Why not? In the old days were station wagon versions of models separated out in overall sales numbers? I believe the Taurus station wagon was included in all those record setting years Taurus was the best seller. I look at the Outback as basically a Legacy station wagon but I know it's SUV of the year or whatever. As far as your Santa Fe and Sonata having some cross usage just think of all the vehicles out there like that. Isn't the Honda CRV based on the Civic. Maybe we should count those together. I think it's a slippery slope and that's why the Santa Fe is called a SUV and the Sonata is called a sedan.

    It does get confusing though. How much content or how many similarties does it take to cross the line? I don't think anybody can really be definitive so we have to rely on the car companies to label their cars and kind of go from there.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    It does not really matter, but to me lumping Outback and Legacy together seems much different than lumping a conventional wagon version of a vehicle with the sedan.

    Why not Edge + Fusion + Milan? The Edge is the Fusion "wagon" isn't it? Also, isn't one of the CX vehicles basically the Mazda6 "wagon"?

    And why not add all the variations of the Malibu that GM made together?

    Not a midsize, but how about adding Jetta, Jetta wagon, Golf, (and maybe even Tiguan) all together? After all, I assume in the former version of the Mazda6, the sedan, wagon, and hatchback were all added together.

    It does all seem kind of arbitrary.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Yep why not.
    The Accord has the sedan and the coupe why not the wagon too.
    The Civic has the sedan and the wagon.
    The Mazda 3 has the sedan and the hatch-wagon.
    The Altima has the sedan and the coupe.
    The Camry had the sedan and the coupe.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Well, for the Crosstour Honda calls it the "Accord Crosstour" so I guess that answers our question. If they were going to separate it out they certainly wouldn't have called it Accord.

    Like I said, if the manufacturerers call it a SUV or CUV or CRV or whatever it indicates that they are not grouping the sales and that is good enough for me. Backy cited Matrix and Corolla being grouped. Well, I don't think Toyota(or Pontiac for the Vibe) ever designated them as being anything other than variations of the Corolla or passenger cars versus SUVs etc.

    Suburu labels the Outback as a SUV so that is good enough for me as it is apparent they aren't grouping sales together. However, anyone who follows cars knows that a popped up trunk and a couple inches of road clearance don't make that much difference in a vehicle. Same drivetrains, interiors, options, etc to me indicates pretty much a variation of the same vehicle.
  • fushigifushigi Member Posts: 1,459
    IIRC the Outback used to be called the Legacy Outback and it was considered a wagon. Now they call it an SUV although to my eyes it still looks like a wagon. A decent looking wagon, but a wagon nonetheless.

    I'm not sure it Toyota ever marketed the Matrix as a Corolla Matrix but right now they do market the Solara as a Camry Solara.
    2017 Infiniti QX60 (me), 2012 Hyundai Elantra (wife)
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Actually the Solara was always the Camry Solara and it's now out of production. Similarly the Matrix has always been the Corolla Matrix ever since it arrived.

    The Venza which replaced the Solara is not a Camry Venza.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    It does not really matter, but to me lumping Outback and Legacy together seems much different than lumping a conventional wagon version of a vehicle with the sedan.

    Why not Edge + Fusion + Milan? The Edge is the Fusion "wagon" isn't it? Also, isn't one of the CX vehicles basically the Mazda6 "wagon"?

    Eh I kind of take offense to including some wanna-be big-wheeled annoying, poor handling psuedo-wagon in with the sedan. The old Legacy and the Legacy wagon can be together, the VW sedan/wagon can be together, but the Honda Aztec and the sedan are pretty different (by several hundred pounds), as are the FuLans and Edge. Some blooby looking wagon on stilts shouldn't count as the same category.

    Hmm ask me how I really feel or something :mad: ;) :sick:
  • dodgeman07dodgeman07 Member Posts: 574
    GM announced this week that the MSRP on the 2010 Chevrolet Malibu will be cut dramatically late this winter. The huge glut of unsold Malibus clogging dealer lots across the nation has forced this move.

    Malibu's are currently selling at 10%-15% under MSRP and moving slowly. I4 Malibu's LT & LTZ's currently stickering for $25K to $28K will likely drop into the $22K to $25K range.

    Is GM getting the message?
  • gooddeal2gooddeal2 Member Posts: 750
    Wow, I didn't realize that the Malibu is more expensive than the Accord or Altima. I think GM lowered their inflated prices in late 2004 already...may be they didn't cut them enough?

    Invoice base Malibu LS----$21,890
    Invoice base Accord LX----$20,533
    Invoice base Altima 2.5S--$21,196

    I can understand that the Altima costs a little more than the Accord b/c of the Intelligent key and dual exhaust but I don't see any special extras in the Malibu.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Well, there's OnStar on the Malibu, and a 6AT (is that standard now?), but are those worth $1400 more than an Accord considering the Accord's historically high resale value? Apparently not!
  • gooddeal2gooddeal2 Member Posts: 750
    Only 4AT for the LS. I don't really count the OnStar b/c you need to pay after the first year and I don't think you will use that often for a brand new car.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    OnStar is a navigation system (sort of) along with the emergency call feature, so it's very likely it will be used by owners in the first year. As for the emergency features... I suppose GM would assert that if you only use it once, it will more than pay for itself.

    You have to pay for the satellite radio fees on cars so equipped (e.g. Sonata) after the first year or so, so I suppose we should discount that feature on mid-sized cars also. ;)
  • gooddeal2gooddeal2 Member Posts: 750
    Hmm, I was thinking it's more for the emergency services? Can you use at least the Nav feature after 1 year if you don't want to pay the fee?

    ...I check OnStar website, $200/year for safe& sound and $300/year if you want to add the Nav.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Don't know, maybe someone who has a GM car with OnStar can tell us.
  • xmechxmech Member Posts: 90
    Those OnStar commercials always scare me. Those cars always crash! ;)
  • tallman1tallman1 Member Posts: 1,874
    lol

    Another cool feature is that they can unlock your car doors should you lock your keys inside. My in-laws have used that a couple of times. Not sure it is worth the cost though.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Suburu labels the Outback as a SUV so that is good enough for me as it is apparent they aren't grouping sales together.

    But they are lumped together. They were combined in the WJS list of cars with largest sales. There was a post that implied that the Subaru was a much bigger seller than the Mazda6 (which no longer has a wagon or hatch version in the US, btw), that claim appears to have been based on sales of Outback+Legacy.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Another cool feature is that they can unlock your car doors should you lock your keys inside.

    Let's see - would you rather call OnStar (if you didn't lock your cell phone in the car), identify yourself and wait several minutes for the satellite to unlock your door (assuming you have satellite coverage)

    OR

    punch in 5 numbers on Ford/Lincoln keypad and be on your way in 10 seconds?

    Also with OnStar you have to essentially buy an extra cell line. With Sync you use your existing phone and it makes a local 911 call. OnStar goes to a national number.

    And has everyone seen the new MyFord and MyLincoln interfaces? Wow. Just Wow. Blows away everything else out there including BMW, Audi and Mercedes.

    http://www.autoblog.com/2010/01/07/myford-touch-proves-that-the-shape-of-things-- to-come-is-awesome/
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