Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
So your statements re your direct experience with relative quality are not very credible."
I don't think so. My experience is VERY credible. One of the vehicles that I've owned which was a piece of $[non-permissible content removed] with quality and mechanical problems was the VW Rabbit. The 97 Camry CE didn't have mechanical problems, BUT it did have fit and finish quality issues. What else do you want for proof? The rest of the vehicles which I've owned over the years have all been built 100% in Korea, Germany or Japan and they have all been flawless when compared to the 81 VW Rabbit and the 97 Camry CE that I've owned.
Maybe some actual data other than your whole two car survey. Why did you buy the 2010 Camry if, according to your theory, it is going to be a "piece of $hit"? If I recall correctly the Camry during the mid to late nineties had very good fit and finish according to professional auto writers/reviewers and I spent some time in a couple and they were very nice too. They started getting a little sloppy around the 2002 redo IMO.
You see I say IMO because what I say on here doesn't prove anything. Kind of like you. The stuff you've said proves absolutely nothing and the fact that you think it has makes it difficult to carry on an intelligent dialogue with you. Good luck with your Camry!
Yeah, I have to admit you got me. Good luck with your US built Camry.
I have to say though, you got a lease deal on that Camry that might be the best lease deal I have ever seen on ANY car: $156.01 a month for 3 years, 18,000 miles (a year?). That is simply incredible. That was with no money down, right? That beats even buying a used car, e.g. something cheap like a made-in-Korea 2006 Sonata GLS 4-cylinder.
backy,
I put down $2,300 PLUS another $500 for the Gap Insurance to get the $156.01 per month and the 3 years/ 18,000 miles for my 2010 Camry LE automatic.
I spent over 4 hours at the Toyota dealership trying to get a good deal. I initially wanted to put only $1,000 down plus the Gap Insurance. After 4 hours of dealing, I initially finalized the deal at $1,500 down with 3 years/ 18,000 miles for $169 per month plus the Gap Insurance. My girl wanted to get the payment down into the low to mid $150's, so we put an extra $615 down ($2,115) PLUS $500 for the Gap Insurance PLUS $185 more down for the difference in the sticker price of the vehicle that we chose because it cost $185 more than what we anticipated due to the 16" inch ten spoke alloy wheels that it had on it. So, I basically put down a TOTAL of $2,800 for everything to get the lease deal that I got.
By the way, I don't think that the Sonata that are sold here for the US market is built in Korea anymore. I believe that they build them down in the deep south in Alabama.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100122/us_nm/us_toyota_recall_17
I'd put it in neutral and let the engine blow if I encountered this. Better than a crash.
You are correct on the Sonata, the last several years it has been
built in the Alabama plant.
Yes, it means that I can drive the car a total of 54,000 miles over the 3 year period of the lease. The lease for my Camry is for 18,000 miles per year each year for a total of 3 years. Not bad leasing my 2010 Camry LE for $156.01 per month and being allowed to put on all those miles on it each year. It's an EXCELLENT lease deal.
And haven't I pointed out that the Rabbit, no matter where it was built, was a notoriously troublesome car? I had a German-built Rabbit that gave me no end of headaches until the engine blew up - with fewer than 50K miles on the clock.
Let me repeat - my Rabbit was perfectly awful & it was built in Germany. Your Rabbit wasn't a bad car because it was built in Pennsylvania. Your Rabbit was a bad car because it was a Rabbit.
I thought everyone knew this.
With your $2800 up front, it's not nearly as good a deal on the Camry as I thought it was, but still not too bad--$233/month not counting the PV of money paid up front.
Why do you think that it is NOT a good deal? If I didn't put down any money my monthly lease payment would be much more probably around $300 to $350 per month. I didn't want to have to pay anymore than $150 to $160 per month and that's why I put down the $2300 plus the extra $500 for the Gap Insurance. So if you look at it from the view of not having to pay $300 to $350 per month for a lease and the fact that I was able to get 18,000 per year for 3 years, then the $2,800 amount of money that I put down in order to get the monthly lease payment decreased to $156.01 is NOT a bad deal.
Would you rather put no money down and pay $300 to $350+ per month for a piece of metal? You are a moron if you do.
Does this mean that you liked my post?
I hope that my post wasn't taken the wrong way. I am the type of person who says things the way they are. I just don't think that a car payment or a lease payment for a piece of metal should be anymore than $160 per month. People are paying waaaaaaay too much for car payments and car leases nowadays. It would be nice for these payments to be more reasonable. That's why I think that one can get a better deal by putting down a little bit of money and at the same time wheel and deal in order to get a low monthly lease payment just like I got.
Leasing is effectively renting - plain and simple - just at a cheaper rate than you'd get from Avis or Hertz.
Assuming a 7% interest rate $2800 would require payments of $86.50 for 36 months. So instead of leasing for probably ~$243 per month on a "sign and drive", you paid $2800 up front. Without considering the time value of money, $2800 divided by 36 months is about $78 per month so your lease is actually costing about $234 per month, or ~$220 per month if the "gap" is left out.
All that I think was said is that is not the amazing deal that $156 per month with nothing down would have been.
Exacty right!!! It just amazes me how many people don't understand this.
A lease is nothing more than a loan on the difference between the initial selling price of a car and it residual value at the end of the lease term. Dealers love leases because most people don't negotiate on the selling price, they just focus on the monthly lease payment.
I AM BY NO MEANS SAYING THAT YOU CAN'T GET A CAR FROM A FOREIGN COUNTRY AND NOT HAVE ANY PROBLEMS WITH IT!!!
I just want to make that clear now so that I don't hear that I am saying this! Because I know two people in my family who had an Infiniti and a Lexus, both made and assembled in Japan and who have had some problems
I think IN GENERAL, you have a BETTER CHANCE of getting a car that is assembled better, fit and finished better, and has a chance of having no problems if it is made over seas
Now for me I'm speaking solely on the Japanese automakers because I have not had any experience with German or Korean vehicles
I'll give you a quick great example of what I mean; Acura is a great example of what gygtcobra is talking about;
I've had a Acura TSX and a Acura TL; the TSX is completely made and assembled in Japan while the TL is made and assembled in Ohio!
The TSX had superior build quality, fit and finish, and no problems/noises what to speak of for the 3 years I leased it; the TL on the other hand has had fit and finish issues, body panels popping and creaking, interior rattles/noises like crazy, steering gear box needing replacement, radio hiss, etc. I even asked at two separate Acura dealerships I go to and each service manager told me right from his mouth that they tend to have more service calls and repairs on average with the Acura's that are build and assembled in US/Canada compared to the ones built and assembled in Japan!
I know personally that people noticed that the build quality, fit and finish, and quality of the Nissan Maxima went down hill when the production was shifted from Japan to Tenn
jeffyscott,
You need to understand one thing. If I had put "nothing down" and "if" I was able to negotiate the same lease deal, I would be now paying $229 per month which to me is too much money to fork out each and every month for a car lease. That's why I put money down for the lease. I put the $2,800 up front in order to "lessen" the monthly payment burden of NOT having to pay that $229 per month for 36 months. My $2,800 down payment lessened my monthly payment by $73 from the $229 to only $156.01 per month.
Do you understand the concept of "time value of money"? If so, you'd know that $2800 paid today is a much larger amount than the same amount paid out over 3 years. So you really aren't paying less by reducing your monthly payment on a lease via a big down payment. But you are paying more, sooner.
If you like the idea of using your savings to reduce the monthly payments on a leased vehicle, that's your choice. But there's no need to call someone a "moron" who would prefer to minimize his up-front cash outlay on a lease, especially in the end if he winds up paying no more than you did... or even less.
If a significant amount of your down payment money came from the value of your prior car, where will you get the downpayment for a new vehicle at the end of this lease?
I think IN GENERAL, you have a BETTER CHANCE of getting a car that is assembled better, fit and finished better, and has a chance of having no problems if it is made over seas
I'll give you a quick great example of what I mean; Acura is a great example of what gygtcobra is talking about;
I've had a Acura TSX and a Acura TL; the TSX is completely made and assembled in Japan while the TL is made and assembled in Ohio!
The TSX had superior build quality, fit and finish, and no problems/noises what to speak of for the 3 years I leased it; the TL on the other hand has had fit and finish issues, body panels popping and creaking, interior rattles/noises like crazy, steering gear box needing replacement, radio hiss, etc. I even asked at two separate Acura dealerships I go to and each service manager told me right from his mouth that they tend to have more service calls and repairs on average with the Acura's that are build and assembled in US/Canada compared to the ones built and assembled in Japan!
I know personally that people noticed that the build quality, fit and finish, and quality of the Nissan Maxima went down hill when the production was shifted from Japan to Tenn
smarty666,
YES, what you just quoted saying above here is EXACTLY what I was trying to get thru to everyone in here. You've excellently explained it very well. I too have ALSO noticed a significantly different build quality in fit and finish quality in vehicles in which the production was shifted from Japan to USA or from Japan to Canada. You are absolutely 100% right about this observance.
coloquor and everybody else in here,
So please tell me, what type of dollar amount monthly lease payment is considered to be an "excellent" monthly lease payment figure for leasing the 2010 Camry LE automatic for 3 years/ 18,000 miles per year just like I did when putting money down for the lease? And HOW MUCH money down for the down payment would be considered to be a decent and low dollar amount in order to make the monthly lease payments VERY LOW (at around $155 to $160 per month)? Please be realistic with the figures.
ALSO, what do you consider to be an "excellent" monthly lease payment figure for the 2010 Camry LE automatic "without" having to put any money down for the lease ($0 money down)? I would like to hear your views on both sides of the equation regarding this particular scenario.
THANK YOU
I guess all the recalls and quality issues make them likely to deal on those these days?
I have had a monthly payment of $0 on my 2007 Mazda6 for the last three years. Does this fact alone mean I negotiated a fantastic deal? No, it means I paid cash. In the same way, your monthly payment is what it is both because of whatever you negotiated and because you chose to pay $2800 up front.
I'm not saying their is anything wrong with your deal or how you chose to structure it. But one person might pay only $100 per month on a lease because they chose to pay $5000 up front, while another pays $250 per month with nothing down. Aside from the fact that the second person is paying more in interest, there is not a significant difference between these two deals.
I can't believe that Toyota still has the customer pay for GAP insurance on leases. Whatta crock..
The point is leasing a new car every 2-3 years is THE most expensive option because that's when the vehicle depreciates the most. It's no different than buying a new one and trading it in every 2-3 years - just a different way to do the financing.
If you don't stop looking only at monthly payments and look at total cost then you'll always be throwing money away.
Note - I didn't say leasing was bad. It's a perfectly acceptable way to finance a vehicle IF you only intend to keep it 2 or 3 years in the first place and you understand that you're paying for that privilege. If you're doing it because you think it's cheaper, then that's the wrong reason. It's cheaper to buy a slightly used car and keep it for a long time.
I think Edmunds has an article about leasing and lease gap that recommends as little down payment as possible on a lease since the whole downpayment would be lost if the car were totaled.
Most car insurance companies offer this coverage through an endorsement that covers the lease gap OR the amount outstanding on a loan for a car that has been purchased (do not coverage any amount the customer may be in arrears for a loan or lease).
In my limited experience of a few hundred transactions, lease/loan gap has ALWAYS been far less expensive from the insurance company than from the dealer.
I highly disagree.
First, I really do not think this discussion belongs in this thread to begin with. Second, there is a HUGE difference between leasing for 2-3 years and getting a new car then financing a car and trading it in after 2-3 years. This is why....
On a lease, you are only responsible for paying the payment plus any fees associated with the lease. That is your total exposure. You never need to worry about trade value or depreciation.
When you finance, which most people take a 60 month finance, you will most likley owe more then the car is worth after 2-3 years, unless you put about 30% or more down on the purchase. And at that rate, you already spent more then you would in 2-3 years of leasing. Plus, your finance payment is almost always higher then a lease payment.
If you are a buyer who gets the 2-3 year itch to buy a car, leasing is the way to go. I have never, ever seen someone benefit from trading out of a car that they are in for 2-3 years on the industry average of a 60 month loan, unless there was a substantial amount of money put down on the original purchase to begin with...
Because, if the car is totaled, the bank (leasing company) needs to get the full balance owed on the car. That is the sum of the lease payments plus the buyout.
When a car is leased, that total amount owed is ALWAYS waaay higher then the value an insurance company will give you. You, the lessee, are responsible for the total balance. OUCH!
Most mfgr's include GAP at no cost. I think it's just crazy that Toyota porks their customers that way and they make them buy it. Leasing a car without GAP is just plain stupid. You need it.
Many insurance companies will offer GAP for far less then a dealer. Usually for $250. Dealers, like me, will charge the max amount allowed by any financial institution, which is $500. I do it on loans of course, not leases. (hate on me if you wish, I don't mind)
This is the "EXACTLY" the reason why I leased a car instead of buying it. I did a cost analysis and I found out that I could stretch out a car lease every 3 years for a period of over over 12 years and spend the same amount of money over a period of 12 years of leasing a vehicle as I would have spent over a period of 5 years if I had payments for 5 years owning the vehicle. My savings over the 12 year period is tremendous. That's why I chose to lease.
However, in order to do that, you'd have to be able and willing to make higher monthly payments. That is the biggest attraction of a lease for many people--being able to drive a car for less money out of pocket each month than if the car is purchased.
$3240 / 36 months = $90/month.
You are being too kind.
I have not had a 60 month auto loan since the 1990's and never will again. 36 months is ideal but 48 is acceptable if you have a decent down payment/interest rate. Buying a one year old vehicle after someone else eats the 30% depreciation from MSRP works well for me.
Owning builds equity if you buy/finance appropriately and you can come out ahead of leasing in the long run. I hear people talk about "saving" $100/month with lease vs. buy and laugh it off. I just paid off my '06 Lucerne, it now has 55,000 miles on it and is worth $11K easy. It was one year old with 18,000 miles on it when I bought it for $19K - 3 years ago.
I read a rather glowing review on the new Kizashi in Automobile Magazine today, waiting for the free tire rotation/balance on my Elantra. It was a much more positive review than I've read elsewhere--just proves again different strokes for different folks.
They noted the relatively short length of the car was a plus, and I agree. I think mid-sizers are getting too big/long of late, e.g. Accord and Mazda6. They also compared the car to the Legacy and noted they are about the same price, also both offer AWD. They said something like, the most likely reason someone would be interested in the Kizashi and not buy it is because they bought the Legacy instead. I see their point: two relatively low volume Japanese car companies (although Suzuki is much lower volume in the US than Subaru), with a sedan that might interest someone who is looking for something other than the same-old choices.
The car itself looks pretty good, but there are so few Suzuki dealers around, even in my large metro area, I would be a little worried about service/support.
And this reminds me... the RIP Aura is still over there on the right...
blacky,
I disagree with your calculations and I will tell you why. First of all, if I were to put that $2,800 down that I put down for the lease to instead buy the 2010 Camry, my monthly payments would be a LOT more if I were to finance the loan over a 5 year period. Like you said, my monthly payments would be "at least" $325 per month X 60 months = $19,500.
Then ADD the $2,800 down payment to the $19,500 and you get $22,300 TOTAL money that I would have to spend ONLY during the first 5 year period of ownership of this particular vehicle just to purchase this vehicle. This does NOT include any major repairs.
BUT what about all of the repair costs that will be incurred after the 3rd year of ownership with all the high miles that I drive each and every year? I drive an average of 18,000 miles to 20,000 miles per year. That means that by the 3rd year and after-wards my vehicle will need major service like brakes, rotors, tires, and anything else which may break on the vehicle either because of the high mileage or from wear and tear. The "average" repair nowadays costs between $400 to $500 if it's not a major repair. However, major repairs can also cost $1,000 or more and in the many thousands of dollars depending on what type of major repair that needs to be done on the vehicle. The cost of labor is very expensive and the parts are equally as expensive to repair a vehicle if the repair is a major repair. ALSO, once you spend that money on a major repair, you do NOT KNOW how long before the same vehicle needs another major repair. Especially when a vehicle has very high mileage on it.
In a matter of 4 years I would have 72,000 to 80,000 miles on my 2010 Camry. In 5 years, I would have between 90,000 to 100,000 miles on it. If I decided to keep the vehicle beyond 5+ years, I would have added about 18,000 to 20,000+ miles MORE to my Camry during each consecutive year of ownership. I would have easily racked up 120,000 to 160,000 miles on my Camry if I were to hold on to it for a minimum of 6 to 8 years. That means that I would NEED to do MAJOR repairs to my Camry which will cost me many thousands of dollars with that type of high mileage that's on my vehicle. From my own experience of owning Japanese, Korean and American vehicles, any vehicle that has over 120,000+ miles on it starts becoming a MONEY PIT. It will eventually start needing major repairs to it. Also, after doing the first major repair to a high mileage vehicle, once the vehicle gets even higher mileage on it, you will not know when the vehicle will break down again and when it will need MORE MAJOR repairs again.
I ALSO calculated the repair costs between the middle of year 3 and year 9 and I ALSO factored in the high mileage that I would have on my vehicle. When I did this, I calculated that I would have spent OVER $33,000 to $38,000 over the course of 9 years on my vehicle if I also added in all the repairs that my vehicle would need just because of the very high mileage that it would have on it.
So, NO, it would NOT be economically feasible or worthwhile for me to buy the 2010 Camry. It would be MUCH CHEAPER and more economically feasible for me leasing the Camry every 3 years. It would take me over 12 years to 13.5 years of leasing for me to spend that $33,000 to $38,000 that I would have already spent if I were to own the SAME Camry vehicle for 6 to 8 years. Basically, with the calculations which I did, I would SAVE LOTS OF MONEY and ALSO get 6 to 7.5 MORE YEARS out of the vehicle by continuing to lease a brand new Camry every 3 years than I would by purchasing it. So if I were to lease a brand new Camry every 3 years for the next 12 to 13.5 years I would have spent that $33,000 to $38,000. If I were to buy a Camry, I would have spent that $33,000 to $38,000 within the first 6 to 7.5 years of ownership because I would have spent LOTS of money for major repairs due to the very high mileage that my Camry would have on it from driving 18,000 to 20,000+ miles per year.
That's the reason WHY leasing is much better for me. Leasing is MUCH CHEAPER for me than buying. Especially when I have to deal with major repairs when owning a vehicle due to the very high mileage that I will rack up on vehicle after 6 to 8+ years of ownership. I've been there and done that already. Leasing is THE WAY TO GO for me!
I purchased the Santa Fe brand new with only 5 miles on it. Once the vehicle got over 60,000 miles after the first 3 years of ownership, I had to spend money on this vehicle for repairs for wear and tear items which added up in the thousands of dollars from year 3 to year 9 of ownership. Lots of things on the vehicle needed replacement due to wear and tear and the high mileage that it had. Even though I did all the repairs that it needed due to the high mileage and the wear and tear, the Santa Fe needed MORE repairs because I kept racking up the miles on it. It was NOT worth it to sink anymore money into the Santa Fe.
I sold it for $3,350 and I used $2,800 out of the $3,350 to lease my 2010 Camry LE.
Leasing is the best thing that I ever did.
Not sure why you think that. I've never had major repairs done on any vehicle I've ever owned in 30 years of driving. Most modern vehicles will run nearly 200,000 miles (150,000 minimum) without any major repairs. I've driven a couple of my cars to plus 100,000 with just a new set of tires/brakes around 60,000 miles and since the car was paid for by then, it was no big deal.
If you want lease then by all means do it but consider buying a 1 year old Camry with 15,000 miles on it for $17K and financing for 4 years. You'll come out ahead and have a $8K car when it's paid off.
Backy's comment regarding people leasing to get "more car than they could buy" still holds true today. I might have missed it but with the additional mileage charge on your lease aren't you looking at $275/month anyway?