Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Midsize Sedans 2.0

1267268270272273544

Comments

  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I agree. Some people are downsizing from larger vehicles to midsize vehicles. I have an Infiniti QX4 suv which is going on 8 years with no, and I mean not one, service/repair visit other than routine scheduled maint. I would love to have a G37(midsize albeit a little on the high price side) but I don't need over 300hp and the associated mpg hit that it entails and I also don't want to pay that much. I just read where they are going to introduce a G25 version with a small V6 probably around 220hp or so that should get substantially better mpg and would probably cost about $4k less than the G37. So I could get into an entry luxury car for not much more, if any, than a decked out Camcord, etc. would cost.

    Not saying I would definitely buy it but it kind of goes with the argument that many people want to downsize but still want the amenities they are use to.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    A reminder that this is about mid-sized sedans and what I was talking about was mid-sized sedans--note the examples I used.

    Pot calling the kettle black are we? Should I jump down your throat for mentioning the Escort? hmmm....

    You should not have used a blanked statement encompassing all manufacturers not being successful using the global approach. :P
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    So, what makes a Luxury car a Luxury car? Compare a loaded Fusion with a Lexus ES, what does the Lexus offer that the Fusion doesn't? A Smart Key system? I have been in a few Lexus, and I really don't see an advantage of one over the other, other than a name.

    My Sport is as, if not more, quiet than a Lexus, it has a very nice ride, good handling, nice leather for the seating, Sync, which you don't get in a Lexus, plenty of power, plenty of room, entry keypad in case you left your keys in the trunk. I did that with the smart key once, would not release the trunk or doors. Thankfully my wife had her key.

    I really don't see the reason to spend an extra $6 - $10K for a name. The ES is just a fancied up Camry, which I have owned, and got rid of for the Fusion, which was a big upgrade for me. The only difference between the Camry and ES is the ES is made in Japan, the Camry in Kentucky. So what qualifies a car to be "luxury" other than gimmicks and the price?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The real world fuel economy advantages of a smaller car is more like 4-8 mpg using combined figures (nobody drives 100% highway). It also makes people feel better about themselves regardless of the actual $$$ savings. Some people also just like smaller cars and until now have not been able to get one with decent equipment - at least not from Ford.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    The ES is just a fancied up Camry, which I have owned, and got rid of for the Fusion, which was a big upgrade for me. The only difference between the Camry and ES is the ES is made in Japan, the Camry in Kentucky. So what qualifies a car to be "luxury" other than gimmicks and the price?

    I do not agree. The Lexus ES and Toyota Camry are very very different. Yes, they share a platform and engine, but, the quality and fit and finish are far superior in the Lexus. I do not have a spec sheet handy, but, the Lexus does come with a lot more features then the Camry.

    If you do not think it is worth spending the extra $6-$10 grand, then that's ok. I will side with you on that one.

    Honestly, there is a far greater difference between a Lexus and a Toyota then there is between a Honda and Acura. Just my .02
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Taking a ride in a Lexus ES and saying you didn't notice any difference is like saying "I rode in a Bentley but didn't notice any difference with my Buick". I think you have to spend some time in a car before you really pick up on all the differences. I'll give a quick comparison between my Mazda6 and Infiniti QX4.

    Buying Experience: Much nicer with the Infiniti.
    Warranty: 4 Infiniti vs. 3yrs Mazda btb, 6yr/70k pwrtrn vs. 5yr/60k
    Service Exp: Very pleasant, always offer loaners, internet, ice cream, doughnuts, soft drinks.(Go ahead and have fun with that one)
    Vehicle itself: Much quieter, tighter tolerances, feels a lot more substantial due to sound deadening etc., nicer leather, better paint job, amentities.

    I'm not bashing any midsize car that this forum discusses. I think they are all good cars, some better than others. Now I never mentioned the Lexus ES did I? I was talking about a future Infiniti called the G25 which would probably come in around 29k which is only about 3-4k more than your Fusion Sport. Tack on free loaners and a another years warranty to yours and you're probably looking at 2-3k more. Add NAV to yours and there would be very little diffence in price. Heck, an Accord EX-L w/Nav V-6 auto MSRPs for around 32k. I'm talking around 30k for an Infiniti.

    You pretty much get what you pay for in this world. I'm not saying you don't pay a little extra just for that "prestige factor" but it isn't necessarily that much. When I bought the Infiniti I was actually trying to buy a Pathfinder and had no intention of buying an Infiniti. I couldn't get the Nissan dealer to deal so I said what the heck, the QX4 is the same thing, let's see what we can do. Got the Infiniti for less than I could get the Pathfinder for. The QX4 is basically an upgraded Pathfinder which you seem to think is no better than the Pathfinder. Wrong. The QX4 is a lot nicer than the Pathfinder. I drove them extensively before we bought.

    I'm not pushing luxury brands on this thread as it is a moderate price midsize family sedan thread. I'm just saying that sometimes the price differences in between non-luxury and luxury are not as great as some people make them out to be if you compare entry level luxury to decked out CamCords.
  • dash5dash5 Member Posts: 421
    That's where I'm at now myself. I had been looking in the entry level luxury segment but decided to give the midsize sedan another look. I was really hoping to find that right mix somewhere but nothing has really grabbed me yet.

    I'd like to spend under 30k. I'd like some power and performance but not at the expense of a nice ride, a quiet ride. In this segment the Honda Accord looks ok, but I'm concerned about what the reviews say about elevated road noise. That and it's rather common.

    I was considering the BMW 328xi, but now that I want to keep it under 30 I dont think that's doable? The G37 is very nice as well. I also like the Audi A4 but again probably priced out and I'd rather not get a base model.

    The new 2011 Sonata looks intriguing, but I dont know much about it other than some pretty rendered pics I've seen. The Mazda 6 and Nissan Altima I should probably look at as well. *sigh*

    So frustrating to be all over the place like this. I need to narrow it down to 2 or 3 at most.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Count me in with you in the same situation: wanting to go entry-lux but trying to keep the OTD price to $30K.

    Have you considered the Mazda6 or the Ford Fusion Sport? Both IMO are excellent choices for a midsize sedan with some entry-lux options for $30K...
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    If you value power but still prefer comfort and quiet, the Accord might be too sporty for you. The Camry and current Sonata offer tops-in-class fuel economy, solid V6 power, and a quiet, comfortable ride. They aren't cars that are fun to drive, but they are good commuter cars with plenty of luxury or the price. You might could get a steal on a Sonata Limited V6 right now, with a new one about to debut. You could also check out the Hyundai Azera or lower-level Toyota Avalon.

    That said, I'd drive all the cars you mention if they fit your budget. Don't let reviews deter you from test driving a vehicle; form your own opinion. :)
  • dash5dash5 Member Posts: 421
    Hah I was just at the Mazda site looking at the 6. I think I am adding that to my list yes. Sharp looking, nice features and seems like I can get out the door for under 30 nicely equipped.
  • dash5dash5 Member Posts: 421
    I think you're right about test driving. I really do want some of each, performance and luxury, which I understand comes at a premium but it's so subjective as to what feels sporty or how much road noise would bother you or what is "upscale". I'm coming from a 2001 4 cylinder Jetta that I use as my commuter, pretty much anything will be a jump in power and performance as well as luxury and amenities.

    My wife has the 2009 Honda CR-V and I like the interior of the Hondas, but before that our fun car was a 2004 Infiniti G35. So I know the pros and cons of both which I guess is why I'm all over the place!
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    So I know the pros and cons of both which I guess is why I'm all over the place!

    Sounds like my parents when they were car shopping back in 2008. They had a Civic and wanted a second car. They didn't have a CLUE what they wanted. They drove everything from a Hyundai VeraCruz to an Accent 3-door, a Ford Taurus, Chevy Impala, a year-old Caddy DTS, the then-new Accord, a Nissan Versa assorted Scions, and ended up with a 2008 Taurus with leather and sync.

    It was quite entertaining to watch them whittle down their list.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    First, I didn't mention the Escort--someone else did, and I simply asked a question about that comment because I wasn't sure the European Escort was the same car as the US version.

    Second, my statement re global cars was fully visible and thus was not "blanked."
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The real world fuel economy advantages of a smaller car is more like 4-8 mpg using combined figures (nobody drives 100% highway).

    That's not my experience, with compacts and modern mid-sized sedans. I agree you can see that kind of difference between some subcompacts that are optimized for fuel economy, e.g. Yaris, and non-hybrid mid-sized sedans. But that is a huge difference in size and utility.

    And some folks do drive almost all highway, e.g. using a car for a long commute from rural areas. But I do urban driving almost all the time.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    First, I didn't mention the Escort--someone else did, and I simply asked a question about that comment because I wasn't sure the European Escort was the same car as the US version.

    Unbelieveable.....really..... if you feel so strongly about staying on topic, you should have gone to an Escort thread and asked that question. You should practice what you preach.

    If you feel so highly about not mentioning ANY other vehicles other then mid-sizers here then why are you not complaining about everyone else throwing their .02 in for their comments about non mid-sizers? Why just pick out mine?? My response about manufacturers being successful with globally produced cars was totally viable.....
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Please take a breath and calm down. I wasn't "picking" on you. I did suspect you misunderstood my post about global cars. I was trying to focus (no pun intended) on the mid-sized market, as per the examples I listed. It looked like you thought I was addressing the entire car market, which was not my intention.

    Sorry for any misunderstanding.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    :shades:
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    But that is a huge difference in size and utility.

    Not if all you use it for is daily commuting. I went from a Lincoln LS to a Fusion and I'd have no problem switching to a Focus or Fiesta. It's just me driving back and forth to work most of the time.

    And there are lots of folks who think a 5 mpg improvement is huge, even though the actual difference between a 25 mpg and 30 mpg vehicle is about $5/week for 300 miles (2 gallons).

    Guess we'll just have to wait and see.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Well, if it's for daily commuting over any distance, that's highway driving, right? Where the current mid-sizers shine, esp. the I4s. For example, I got 37 mpg highway on the OLD Milan--not the current one with even better FE.

    And there is more to a commuter car than fuel economy. For me, for long-distance commuting, a smooth, quiet ride is important. I think a mid-sizer like the Fulan or Camry or Sonata would do much better in that respect than a small car like the Fiesta. Then there's the weekends. If you want one car that can handle a variety of needs, a mid-sizer is a really good choice, also some of the compact 5-door hatches and wagons with interior room that rivals some mid-sizers.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    In Atlanta there is no such thing as highway speeds and commuting. It's all stop and go or 30 mph, even on the interstates.

    But you're TOTALLY missing the point here. It's not what YOU want (or me for that fact). I guarantee you there are plenty of folks out there who want small cars with features and now Ford has options for them.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I understand the fuel economy part of the equation. I have a ~30 mile each way commute that is 98.4% highway at highway speed (unless its snowing; then everyone goes 10 mph and gets stuck because they have no momentum). My current vehicle gets 30+ mpg on that drive at typical 10 over speeds. With the old car, I would actually take the country roads that took longer to get home but were entertaining to drive. The new car doesn't give me the same inspiration.

    Could I drive a smaller vehicle? Yeah there is no reason I need a midsize car, but there was no financial incentive not to get one either. There were other incentives, like the Civic SI sedan would've been much more fun, but oh well.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    as an fyi, my main ford dealer pays for an enterprise rental if they need to keep my car overnight.even when i had my focus. i may have to whine a bit(i'm standed at work).
    they also have shuttle service to and from work, so i can drop the car off in the morning and pick it up in the afternoon.
    i didn't buy my fusion there and bring it to the selling dealer for service, but all the other cars get serviced there.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Your post was unintentionally funny. It was funny because I recall many other posts in Town Hall talking about traffic in Atlanta, and about how people are whizzing around at 80 mph all the time so you need a car with that kind of performance.

    I've driven in Atlanta a few times and I think reality is closer to what you described, except maybe late at night or on Sunday morning.

    Having lots of choices is a good thing. As long as one of the choices is still a basic small car with the kinds of attributes I described earlier.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    I'm fortunate that my Atlanta trips (maybe once or twice a month) are most often timed to avoid the worst of the rush hour period. I don't deal with it on a daily basis, so I'll defer to those who do. My own limited experience suggests that at rush hour on weekdays, stop and go for miles is the norm on the interstate. On the other hand, going through town in midafternoon, or on a weekend, the soccer moms in their Range Rovers on the Georgiabahn will try to flatten you if you're running less than 80-85. So you need a car-of-all-trades.

    For conditions like these, my ideal car would combine quick reflexes, excellent visibility, and enough sheetmetal to provide safety from the accidents you can't avoid. So as the best compromise I'd go for a sporty-handling midsize sedan with a V6 and a good automatic--probably a Fusion Sport or a Mazda 6s, but there are lots of good options.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    But the typical buyer of a Focus/Cobalt/Aveo/Corolla/Civic/Elantra/Accent/Forte/Versa/Sentra etc. is looking first and foremost for economical transportation, IMO.

    Did you leave out the Mitsubishi Lancer by mistake or on purpose here? Just curious. :)

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Don't feel bad....Mazda3 is missing too. Probably just got tired of typing. ;)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    First, there was the "etc." :) Second, I intentionally left out the Mazda3 because I consider that car, especially the MazdaSpeed3 variant, as one of the "sporty" small cars I mentioned for which people are willing to pay a price premium over a typical small car. The Lancer, in certain trims, also fits that category.

    I didn't omit your favorite car as a slight. Chill, people. :shades:
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    So, now that there is a sales freeze on just about all Toyota's, this gives Ford a chance to take the lead in Fusion sales vs the Camry. Does any one think Ford will step up their marketing campaign?
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    Not me. The Toyota freeze will last a couple of weeks, max. Besides, the Fusion plant in Hermosillo is pretty busy already.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    So, now that there is a sales freeze on just about all Toyota's, this gives Ford a chance to take the lead in Fusion sales vs the Camry. Does any one think Ford will step up their marketing campaign?

    I doubt the Fusion will take the sales lead due to Toyota's issues (if anything the Accord will reclaim the title), and I also doubt that Ford (or any other automaker) will turn this into a marketing ploy, since Toyota's scenario is quite possibly the biggest nightmare for ANY automaker.

    Besides, the Fusion IMO is selling well in Ford's eyes. IIRC plants are running at capacity, incentives are very low (if any), and it's hard to find more than 3-4 Fusions on any Ford lot around here, let alone a specific model/color/option.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If anything it might be an opportunity for some makes that are not selling to capacity, e.g. Mazda6, Malibu, Sonata, Altima (?). In particular it's a golden opportunity for Hyundai, since this issue with the Camry coincides with the debut of the 2011 Sonata. Hyundai was already going to push the Sonata and the brand to the hilt on the Super Bowl. Even though Camry sales may resume very quickly, I wonder what kind of residual effect this sales shutdown will cause? It is unprecedented, so a little hard to predict the fallout.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    The Sonata is a pretty close match for the Camry in a lot of ways (closer than the Accord, Altima or Fusion), and Hyundai will probably increase incentives on the outgoing model in order to make room for the 2011 version. So Hyundai could pick up a significant number of sales if the Toyota shutdown lasts longer than a few weeks.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Oh trust me - outside of rush hour traffic you'll get run over if you're doing less than 75 - even when it's 55 mph. I think the average speed on GA 400 (which is limited access like the interstates) was actually measured around 80 a few years ago. But during rush hour it's a crawl. Thank goodness I'm only 12 miles from work and use surface streets.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Maybe someone should take their own advice and chill. My comment was not meant as a reflection on your post but was a reply to the other poster that just because something is left out, it probably wasn't on purpose. I would be hard pressed to think of every compact when making a post about all of them.

    Now you come back and say you left them out on purpose for what I consider to be a pretty silly reason......that they offer an array of versions. A basic Mazda3 or Lancer is no more different from other compact cars than the Mazda6 is from other midsize sedans. A little sportier but still, in basic form, all within about $1000 in price. If they came back out with the MazdaSpeed6 would you exlclude the Mazda6 from the ranks of midsize cars?

    By the way, the Mazda3 is far from one of my favorite cars. :D
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    We do have a Civic Si still... :)

    Anybody with dealer info on when the Sonata will arrive in showrooms? I've read conflicting reports.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    OK, I get it.. this is "beat up on backy" week. No problem. Must be a tough week out there for everyone. If nit-picking my posts to death makes folks feel better, that's cool. :)

    One thing I could say is, given that the US car buying public has ignored the Lancer, maybe I could be forgiven for not including it in my little list except as "etc." They've ignored the Galant too. Heck, even Edmunds.com doesn't think the Galant is significant enough to warrant a little picture in this discussion.

    And maybe I can be forgiven for having an OPINION that the Mazda3 is sportier than your average compact econobox. Or maybe not.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    C'mon get of the rid of the chip. Take as well as you give. Nobody is questioning someone's opinion. You took my original post wrong and said to chill out for no reason. Just like being called a fanboy, people don't like to be told to "chill out" when they weren't hot or upset in the first place. Just a misunderstanding for god's sake. Let's move on.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Just like being called a fanboy

    Let's not bring that back up. I took a pounding for that. LOL!!

    Just a misunderstanding for god's sake. Let's move on.

    There has been a lot of that this week. Can;t we all just get along?? :shades:
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I think you don't realize that my post i.e. "chill out, people" was not directed specifically at you. I just happened to reply to your post within the thread. So please don't take my remarks personally.

    Hopefully we can all recover our sense of humor. Soon.
  • dash5dash5 Member Posts: 421
    Two Mazda 3's a nun and a Rabbi walk into a bar... :P

    So other than the 2011 Sonata which I know about, are any other cars due for a complete or significant redesign in this segment? Accord, Camry, Altima etc.. anything within say a year from now?
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Camry and Altima are probably the closet, I think they were both last redone for the '07 model year. Accord was redone for '08, Mazda6 for '09, Fulan for '10, Legacy for '10, Malibu '8(I think), Galant was '09(I think). I don't think Sebring is going to be offered long and Aura is gone. Maybe Passat could be due but it seems they may replace it with a new US built midsize car prior to any redo. I'm pretty sure of these details but don't follow a couple of them much so I could be mistaken and stand ready to be critiqued.
  • maxamillion85maxamillion85 Member Posts: 78
    Accord gets a facelift sometime in the fall...don't know how significant it will be, but its coming.

    Sebring gets a significant facelift this fall sometime in November...with a possible name change new interior, revised styling, etc. etc. So Sebring may be "dead" but there will be a midsize replacement by November.

    Camry will probably be all-new and on sale by this time next year, Toyota tends to release new models early in the year.

    Altima probably won't be shown until NY's autoshow April 2011 and won't be released until August-September of 2011 most likely.

    When is the NMS from VW being released?
  • Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
    If you are a Toyota owner and interested in sharing your reaction to the recall with reporters, send an email stating the vehicle you own, your telephone number, and the best time you can be reached.

    Send to: karen@edmunds.com

    PS: Any Toyota owners from Minnesota? We have specific request for that state.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The 2011 Optima should be out within a year or so. Spy pics are out there. Looks similar in profile to the 2011 Sonata--much more rakish than the current Optima. Probably will benefit from the powertrain changes in the new Sonata also. I expect the old 2.7L V6 will finally be gone.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,146
    A reporter is looking to talk with diehard Chevy fans in the Chicago area. If you are a long-time loyalist, a Chevy collector or have dramatically customized your Chevy, and you live near Chicago, please email pr@edmunds.com no later than February 10, 2010, and provide your daytime phone number and a few words about your passion for the "bow tie" brand.
    Thanks,
    Jeannine Fallon
    Corporate Communications
    Edmunds.com

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Seems so, WRT Passat.

    Volkswagen of America president Stefan Jacoby has confirmed to High Gear Media that the new sedan to be built in Tennessee will effectively replace the VW Passat in North America

    http://www.thecarconnection.com/marty-blog/1036261_exclusive-volkswagen-nms-repl- aces-passat-phaeton-to-return
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Accord gets a facelift sometime in the fall...don't know how significant it will be, but its coming.

    Perhaps Honda can back in stride and actually release a new model that looks better than the previous one. :surprise:

    Camry will be redesigned, at least the gas pedal. :P
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    A new gas pedal won't fix the software.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Interesting article. I like how VW rationalizes the need for a bigger midsize. That we drive longer distance instead of saying that Americans just got too darn big for the Passat.

    Bringing back the Phaeton is a mistake I think and it's sad that they will probably move the CC up into luxury territory. Probably a CC w/TDI(I think eventually) will start mid-thirties. Shame.
  • watkinstwatkinst Member Posts: 119
    Just went through all of this with my Mother she's retirement age and replacing her old Altima. After driving the new Altima - camry multiple times and reviewing the options packages and prices - she wrote a check for a 2010 Subaru Legacy 2.5I premium package. All said and done she got the car with blue tooth - heated seats and the home link system for 24K.

    Her thoughts on all the cars she looked at. She liked the Altima and clearly had a pre set preference for it but the options quickly sent it off the price chart and no 2010's were available yet. Choices were very limited

    Camry she liked but felt it was way to floaty and she said that it looked like Toyota forgot to finish the trunk - even went as far to look at multiple camrys to see if maybe the one she first looked at was missing some parts in the trunk space.

    The recent rain storms in CA she told me this week she is SOOOOO glad she got the Subaru given her commute has been hell and the subaru sticks to the road like glue.

    She got everything she wanted Plus AWD for the price target she was shooting for which both the Nissan and Toyota could not match.

    Sonata is interesting for sure.
Sign In or Register to comment.