Midsize Sedans 2.0

ergsum · February 2010

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/hyundai-announces-pricing-for-the-all-ne- w-2011-sonata-83295027.html

m6user · February 2010

We'll have our first opportunity to drive the new Sonata next week and we'll finally find out if the dynamics live up to its new styling.

Above posted tonight from the reviewers at Autoblog.com. Looks like Hyundai is finally releasing to the mags/blogs for test drives. Should be interesting.

backy · February 2010

Looking at the equipment that is standard on the GLS for 2011 but was optional before, e.g. Bluetooth phone, telescopic wheel (not even available on the GLS before) with audio controls, chrome window moldings, metalgrain interior accents, trip computer, and DRLs (not available before), the price of the 2011 Sonata seems less than the 2010 car, at least in base form. Plus the 2011 has a six-speed tranny vs. five for 2010, and of course more power in the I4. Also the GLS with nav option, new for 2011.

So pricing seems very reasonable, but... what's the car like?? I am surprised there was nothing in the March auto mags, or on Edmunds.com yet... unless of course Hyundai didn't make the car available to the press until just now.

m6user · February 2010

See my previous post above. It appears that Hyundai is just starting to release cars to the press for reviews next week.

backy · February 2010

Yep, saw it.

So maybe I should have said, I am surprised Hyundai waited until now to let the US press drive the car, so they could put reviews in the March mags, to coincide with the debut. Better?

iluvmysephia1 · February 2010

to test drive the 2010 Suzuki Kizashi today. I did look at the Royal Suzuki of Tucson website and they had no GTS models in stock. And Salazer Suzuki of Avondale, AZ, same burb of Phoenix that we bought our Lancer GTS in, had no GTS models.

And the wife and I were busy in our little town for several hours then shopping and running errands in Tucson later in the day. No time for Suzuki nor their Kizashi.

I did this very same thing about another Suzuki in late 2006. The SX-4 crossover. Basically talked it all out of my system in a matter of about a week with some of you all here on Edmunds, none of my friends had even heard of the SX-4 before.

Occasionally I go buggy over a new model then just let it slowly die out of my system with the passage of a few weeks time. It's fun to get all excited and see where it takes me.

I do love my Lancer GTS and I need to find out more about Suzuki and this car and test drive one later this year. I'll let the kinks get discovered first and see what the Japanese automaker does for a resolve, etc. I remain quite impressed by their new midsize offering, though. It has a lot of potential. The Company is very proud of the car.

acdii · February 2010

I know what your saying, I did the same for the Dodge Avenger, the car looked so good on the internet, sounded good, etc. Then I went and looked at one, and found out what a piece of crap it was. It was so bad in fact that the rubber trim around the drivers rear window was hanging off. No wonder Chrysler is in such bad shape.

iluvmysephia1 · February 2010

yep, that's what's in us car nuts. We get all excited about a particular model every once in a while. It's not a problem, only if you try and buy every one you flip out over. Or even every other one you fall for, eh?

jimbres · February 2010

It's fun to get all excited and see where it takes me.

Nothing wrong with that. It's good, clean fun...& it's free.

acdii · February 2010

When I bought the Prius and the TCH only reason was high MPG. After driving them for 58K miles, and the poor handling, lack of acceleration, and just plain blah factor, I made the "mistake" of driving the Fusion Sport. Oh man what a difference, the drive was all it took for me to say, goodbye Toyota, hello Ford. I had looked and drove a lot of cars before buying a new one, and the Fusion Sport was the only one that impressed me handling wise that I could afford and was still practical for our needs.

I spent a LOT of time going over it with my wife before deciding to purchase it too, so it wasn't a fall in love buy it now gotta have it thing either. Put a lot of thought into it, then bought it, and I am so glad I did!

revit · February 2010

Congrats on the Fusion Sport. With all these problems going on, many will probably be following you and doing the same.

iluvmysephia1 · February 2010

and your research was no doubt done on the internet quite a bit. I have learned more about cars since 1998, when I first jumped on the internet and started going to car sites, than perty much all of my years leading up to 1998 put together.

I learned a lot of the mechanical stuff fairly young, at least the things I know, I am by no means a mechanic, but most things were learned in my teens and 20's as far as that goes.

But it's the inside stuff about cars- their makers and their important people and their Unions and their strikes and their option packages and so on that has been opened up for all to learn and see about in real time...because of the interweb. It has enabled me to learn quickly what's coming to market way before the car hits the showroom.

So, before my wife and I pulled the trigger on our 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS, I had literally researched the car for at least 100 hours on the net, if not more. There wasn't much the salesperson had to do except hand me the keys and come along for the test drive. It's much nicer to search for cars now than it was even 15 years ago.

acdii · February 2010

That's true. I was a mechanic, ASE Certified, so mechanically I know cars, but that was back in the early 90's, cars have changed so much since then that the only maintenance left is changing the oil. Engines have come a long way since then, unibody construction has gone leaps and bounds since then, so that now cars ride, and sound like the old boats on frames. I used to own only Crown Vics, and Grand Marquis, big heavy rear wheel drive cars, with V8's. The always rode nice, and were comfortable, with plenty of room, and got decent mileage considering how big they are, 21 MPG isn't bad at all. Then I moved out to the country and started putting on a LOT of miles, and these big cars no longer seemed practical, so I got a Prius, it was an ok car, but had too many little quirks that made me feel unsafe driving it, and it was FWD, something I still don't like driving. I dumped that for a Veracruz, and I really like that car, and it fits my entire family, and this was the first vehicle I actually started reading up on before buying, on the internet. I read all the reviews, both the mags and consumers, did a lot of research for pricing on it, so when I went to buy it I was well armed and got what I feel is a good deal. But, after driving the Prius everyday, 500 miles a week, this thing just felt too big to be driving everyday, even though I have my wife and two kids with me, at least for part of the trip, it just did not feel as practical as the Prius did, even though I felt much safer in it than I did in the Prius. I then shopped around for a Camry Hybrid, and found an absolutely great deal on it, and bought one of those, again researching reviews and such. As far as reliability, the Camry is right there, but I felt let down when it came to quality of materials, fit and finish, I expected more from this car. There were a couple outstanding issues with the Camry, first was wind noise, it was not a quiet car, second was handling, it felt like I was driving a rowboat, the Crown Vics handled better than that, and finally, what made me decide to get rid of it instead of trying to improve upon its defects was the brake surge problem. The car would surge when coming to a stop from 55+ MPH. At first I though it was the regen disengaging, but that would not cause the ICE to turn back on and apply power. I happened to have the dash gauge set to the energy screen that shows whether power is being supplied by the engine, or battery or if there is a charge taking place. I caught it on th escreen when it happened one time, it went from suck to blow, the charge stopped, the engine kicked in and was supplying power until I hit the brake pedal hard. All during this my foot never left the brake pedal and it was constantly applying pressure. My wife thought I was screwing around slamming on the brakes, until it happened to her, that is when we decided time to dump it. When Ford came out with 0% on the Fusion, it was a no brainer, and I traded the Camry in for the Fusion Sport, and I have not looked back. Of course I did research on the Fusion, read all the reviews, drove it several times along with the other models to confirm that the Sport really is what it is compared to the SEL V6, and I4. I really wanted the Fusion Hybrid, but I just could not justify the extra cost for it. Two things I do miss on the Camry, the 38 MPG and the Smartkey system, but I got used to using a key again, and I am having too much fun to worry about not getting 38 MPG.

Yes, the internet has made car buying quite a bit easier as you can gleam a lot of information, some of it you take with a grain of salt, but a lot of it points to little things you wouldn't even think of until it is too late. After all the quality issues I found with the Toyotas, I went through this car very closely before making my decision, and the Ford was by far a much better built car, and used better materials.

mickeyrom · February 2010

I don't agree with all of your points,but thank you for writing this post.It is easily the most interesting post I have seen here to date.
I just bought a Prius,and of course almost the next day I started reading all the horror stories about the surging.Of course,I am pretty much stuck with it,but am hoping for the best.BTW,I don't buy into this official line that the floormats were the problem.I'm not dumb enough to buy into that.The problem obviously is in the software or the electronics.

mickeyrom · February 2010

I don't agree with all of your points,but thank you for writing this post.It is easily the most interesting post I have seen here to date.
I just bought a Prius,and of course almost the next day I started reading all the horror stories about the surging.Of course,I am pretty much stuck with it,but am hoping for the best.BTW,I don't buy into this official line that the floormats were the problem.I'm not dumb enough to buy into that.The problem obviously is in the software or the electronics.

acdii · February 2010

They more than likely fixed the problem I had on the 07 with the traction control sensitivity, but the cross wind instability is inherent to the design. We basically outgrew the car, and the two mentioned issues made it easy to get rid of it. There MUST be a reason to get rid of a car that gets 65 MPG on the highway! IYKWIM.

The surge problem was with the Camry, and aside from the lousy traction control on the Prius, the drivetrain was fine. I know the current issue with the braking on the 2010 Prius quite well, I noticed it in the 2009 Camry Hybrid. When you hit a bump while braking, the regen cut out and you basically lost brakes until you pressed further down to engage the hydraulic brakes. There is one part of the road on the way to my office where it happened all the time, so I would avoid that part of the road. I never made much of it, so the Prius problem must be a bit more pronounced. Enjoy your Prius, Toyota can easily fix a software problem like that, the surging problem however, not so easy to fix since its intermittent. I like the 2010, but it is still just a bit too small for our needs.

ergsum · February 2010

http://www.thecarconnection.com/marty-blog/1042427_2011-hyundai-sonata-wins-big-- - in-superbowl-ads-audi-dodge-less-so

smarty666 · February 2010

I was hoping to get some help and opinions; within the next year or so I might be getting a mid-size sedan with a V6 and I was hoping to find out which one gets the best gas mileage: below I have the sedans that offer V6 options in FWD and their respective EPA numbers but as you know you typically don't get what the EPA numbers on the window say so I was hoping to hear from people who have any of these vehicles and what mpg you get and if any of you have compared the fuel economy on any of these V6 vehicles that would be helpful too!! thanks in advance for your help and opinions!

Nissan Altima V6: 20/27
Toyota Camry V6: 20/29
Ford Fusion V6: 18/27
Honda Accord V6: 19/29
Chevy Malibu V6: 17/26
Mazda 6 V6: 17/25

acdii · February 2010

In my Fusion Sport I get up to 32 Highway if I drive lightly, 27 if I don't, and normal daily driving 22. That is the 3.5 V6, not the 3.0.

m6user · February 2010

I think you'll find that with the new(2008 and later) EPA numbers that most people meet or exceed them. Prior to 2008 the numbers were a little "unreal" so to speak and it was a little iffier although I still think they were very achievable. If you drive like any kind of normal person I think you can pretty much count on those numbers from what I've read.

You might want to check the Edmunds forums for the individual cars you're looking at as each one has a thread on "real world mpg" that the owners of those cars report. Some of the threads are quite active. Might give you a lot of info quicker than here. Just a thought.

jeffyscott · February 2010

I think it is a pretty hopeless exercise to try to get any kind of reliable, comparable mpg numbers based on random internet postings. Only numbers generated from some kind of consistent testing protocol are of any value for comparisons. IMO, this leaves you with two sources of information: EPA and CR.

acdii · February 2010

Except for Hybrid cars, they still haven't figured out how to achieve good numbers in them. Those who drive the hybrids daily can achieve much higher than EPA numbers. The numbers on the Camry H are 33-34, I consistently got 36-38, and 44 on the highway. Prius owners consistently get far above the epa numbers.

The non hybrid cars though, the epa numbers are pretty fair.

smarty666 · February 2010

yeah I concur!! I've gotten just around epa to slightly above at times in my 10 Maxima! getting around 22-23 mpg avg and have even gotten 28-29mpg on open highway/interstate! I can't believe I'm getting these kind of numbers on almost 300hp!! booyah!!!

decent fuel economy though is really the only good thing that comes out of the CVT, everything else about it stinks!! :P

acdii · February 2010

Try 32 MPG Highway with the 3.5L V6 rated at only 26, or is it 24. It is all in how you drive it. The Flex which I just got last weekend is the Ecoboost 3.5 engine, and I am getting 20 MPG in it, better than what I was getting in the Veracruz, and this is with AWD. It has 363HP!

smarty666 · February 2010

32 MPG for a V6 is pretty freakin good! you are right, it does make a difference how you drive, my 23 avg with 28 highway is with light driving; that goes down 1-2 mpg is I step on it and drive more aggressively more often or if I shift into driver sport mode! my car hasn't even broken in yet, I don't even have 4k on the car yet so I hope this might even improve by a 1-2 mpg enhancement once the car gets to about 10k miles! I was talking to another guy who has a new max like me and he's been getting a 24mpg avg and has gotten several 30 mpg highway trips so here is to hoping for more

its nice to see the companies have gotten to improve mpg on these V6 engines! especially with ones with high horsepower

these numbers are a big improvement, on my old infiniti, which had a 5spd-AT and 280 HP I got 16-17 mpg avg and my best highway was 22 mpg so this is a huge improvement!

jeffyscott · February 2010

I assume by "highway", you mean cruising on the freeway. This is not what the EPA highway test entails, which is why the numbers are so different. I don't know about the 3.5 but in the Fusion with the 3.0, CR had 31 "highway", but then they also got only 14 mpg in their "city" test vs. EPA's 18. This is because they run a different test, not because the EPA numbers are wrong.

This is the problem with individual reports of mpg, the expected range for what different people will call "city" and "highway" is just too large. One person who's city is like CR's but whose highway is like EPA's will say 14 city 26 highway and another whose city is like EPA's but highway is like CR's will report 18/31 for the exact same car.

acdii · February 2010

What other kind of highway is there? A road the speed limit is 55 or greater and has no traffic signals?
There is a trick to getting maximum MPG in a car, learned it driving of all things a Prius. On a trip back from PA a few years back, I got behind an empty flat bed truck doing 65, I was about 1 1/2 to 3/4 seconds behind it, not up its butt, but still close enough to take advantage of his draft yet still where he can see me. My MPG jumped from 58 to 72 doing that, the hardest part was maintaining that distance up and down hills. My over all tank for that trip was 65 MPG. I practice the same technique in other cars now if I can find a flat bed truck, it doesn't work as well behind a van, you have to be closer to it for it to work, and I don't do that. It doesn't need to be an empty flat bed either as long as the airflow over the bed can get over the top of your car it will work. When you consider how close others drive to each other, the distance I use is extreme in comparison. This is how I can achieve 32 MPG in a car rated at 26, or 65 in one rated at 50. Somewhere I have pictures of the MFD showing the MPG readings from that one trip.

smarty666 · February 2010

you really get some nice mpg on your vehicles acdii

; I love hearing stories like that!!

I would say that Nissan, Ford, and Toyota are going to give you the best overall mpg; I'd say Ford and Toyota are just about tied for best mpg with Nissan following a close second; I know for 2010 that with the Altima, the EPA rating went up 1mpg for both city and highway because most people were getting much better mpg with the Altima then the EPA on the window sticker

like I mentioned before, Nissan used to be the worst when it came to mpg but they have significantly improve since the 2nd Gen CVT is now in most of their vehicles; I also have to commend Ford, they weren't always known for the best mpg but they have made a really good turn around with mpg as you have just proved to me with your fusion!

I think motortrend compared the Fusion Hybrid vs Camry Hybrid vs Altima Hybrid vs Malibu Hybrid last year and the Fusion I believe had the best mpg followed by the Altima!!

m6user · February 2010

Since most people don't draft trucks, you are saying that the mpg you report for highway is highly unrepresentative of a 3.5 Fusion. Also, your description of a "highway" is more of an interstate hwy or freeway. There are plenty of highways around that have stoplights etc. Route 66 was(is) was the "highway to the west" and it had plenty of stoplights.

I agree with jeffyscott to a degree. A process that measure each vehicle in the exact same manner is good for comparison. However, manufacturers have learned how to play the EPA game. I think it helps to hear from other consumers to get a feel(not absolute fact) for what they are really getting in real life. Real life is not drafting trucks for the vast majority of people. I used to do it until a metal crank fell of a truck and smashed my hood once. I was lucky it didin't come through the windshield. That cured me.

imidazol97 · February 2010

>trick to getting maximum MPG in a car, learned it driving of all things a Prius. On a trip back from PA a few years back, I got behind an empty flat bed truck doing 65

Is the Pruis a midsize sedan?

fushigi · February 2010

Too bad Nissan hasn't seen fit to release the Altima Hybrid nation-wide. It has been around since 2007 but is still only available in seven states. :sick:

smarty666 · February 2010

true, but that hasn't been a problem for me since I'm in one of those seven states :P :P :P

jeffyscott · February 2010

What other kind of highway is there?

EPA's:

carstryke · February 2010

Big trucks kick up too much rocks and loose debris. I would rather pay extra at the pump than have to fix rock chips or windshield cracks.

acdii · February 2010

Is the Pruis a midsize sedan?

According to the EPA it is.

Since most people don't draft trucks, you are saying that the mpg you report for highway is highly unrepresentative of a 3.5 Fusion. Also, your description of a "highway" is more of an interstate hwy or freeway. There are plenty of highways around that have stoplights etc. Route 66 was(is) was the "highway to the west" and it had plenty of stoplights.

You would be surprised how many people draft on the highways, the majority of drivers are closer to the vehicle in front of them than I am when "drafting"! Count out 2 seconds, it really isn't as far back as you think. A 1/4 to a 1/2 second is not much closer.

Since you are saying that "highway" is anything other than a road without traffic lights, then the EPA ratings should be low on the highway side for all cars. Currently, my mixed "highway" and city driving on the Fusion is 22, when it is warmer out, I see 24-25 mixed city/highway. In the Camry Hybrid I had, I consistently got 40+ MPG on the highways without drafting, I never really went anywhere far enough in it to see what I can get behind a flatbed. Right now the Flex, on it's second tank is showing me between 19 and 20 mixed, and it has less than 600 miles on it, should be interesting to see how well it bodes when the parts are all melded nicely together.

m6user · February 2010

Since you are saying that "highway" is anything other than a road without traffic lights

Not what I said at all....go back and read mine again. I say highway includes interstates, 4 lane limited access, county hwys/rtes., etc. of which several have stoplights. I agree that if you can't beat the EPA on an exclusively nterstate trip you're doing something wrong even without drafting a semitruck.

acdii · February 2010

Ahh but most people, including me would assume that highway is interstate without traffic signals. On back country roads with stop signs and turns, the EPA highway ratings are herd to meet. I loose a lot of MPG on these roads when you have to accelerate to 55, then stop and accelerate to 55 and then stop or turn again. On the open road though, just cruising at 70 is when most cars are getting the upper end of the EPA. I fond that most cars do get their best mileage when they can maintain a steady 63-68 MPH.

m6user · February 2010

Ahh but most people, including me would assume that highway is interstate without traffic signals

Now is the above your opinion or do know that for a fact? Even though I would probably agree with you that is not how the EPA figures it and that's why, like you said, most people can beat their number on a pure interstate trip. I think my '07 Mazda6 I4 was rated at 30 back in '07 prior to the EPA getting a little more realistic and I never had any trouble getting at least 31-32. Now the same thing is rated at 28 and obviously I'm still getting 31-32 and sometimes 33 on pure "highway" or interstate trips. Anyway, it sounds like if you had about 75% interstate and 25 rural highway with lights etc. you would probably get pretty close to what the EPA rates your car. I think that is similar to the kind of result the EPA arrives at through their methodology.

For example the new Sonata, at a 35 mpg hwy EPA rating it would seem that driven at 55-60 on a pure interstate trip, it may be possible to get upwards of 38-39 miles per gallon. That's very, very good for an almost full size sedan. It will be interesting to see what the Sonata is capable of.

acdii · February 2010

fact, I was at the Chicago Auto Show yesterday and I asked about a dozen people what they consider highway, and they all said interstates, like I90, or I94. City folks don't know very much about the country roads out by me. :shades:

ingvar · February 2010

I am struggling with the trend to make everything bigger.
Not just you. New accord is too big for me.

smarty666 · February 2010

I know right, I was so disappointed in Honda and Acura for bloating up the Accord and TL into large sedan category though they still try to pretend it is a mid-size

I am glad I got my 08 TL when I did, that car is just the prefect size in every dimension! I mean the new TL is just as long as the RL and I think actually the TL is bigger than the RL in width :confuse:

backy · February 2010

There's still some smaller mid-sizers around, e.g. the Kizashi. And another way to combat car bloat is to take advantage of it by buying a compact that has mid-sized interior room, e.g. Elantra, Forte, Prius, Sentra, or Versa. Those cars are probably about the size of mid-sized cars from 15-20 years ago, but maybe even roomier. I've found cars like that have plenty of room for a family of four, five in a pinch, unless the family members are all of the "large" variety.

stephen987 · February 2010

My ideal "midsize" would have the handling and smooth power delivery of a Mazda 3s with the interior space of an Elantra. Sounds a lot like the Kizashi, or the previous-generation Mazda6.

acdii · February 2010

Family of 5 in these cars? Yeah RIGHT!!! You know if we weren't forced to have car seats, then maybe they would work, but there is NOT a car that will fit 2 adults and 3 kids safely unless it is the size of a Grand Marquis or Towncar. Once you have 2 car seats in, forget about getting anyone else into the back seat. We were forced to have to get two cars, one as a daily driver that we take the two young ones in to day care, and one for the whole family to go out in. The one for the whole family does not work out well as a daily driver, not at 19 MPG.

wolverinejoe80 · February 2010

very very impressive. Sonata is now the segment leader in every category. bow down to the king.

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/02/22/2011-hyundai-sonata-review/4#c25682542

backy · February 2010

Since I've owned two Elantras and frequently have 2 adults and 3 kids in them "in a pinch" (which is what I said, recall), I think I know something about this. And these are the previous-generation Elantras that are not as roomy as the current one. Yes, if you have 2 car seats, that will fill up the back. But my kids are long past car seats. Not all "kids" sit in car seats, do they? If I had two kids in car seats, I'd still own a minivan--which is what we had back when we were in that situation.

m6user · February 2010

Daughter has a '09 Camry company car and she has 3 kids, ages 2, 3 and 10. They all sit in back with the two car seats. Granted the ten year old is pretty skinny and it's not comfortable, but it's a free car and she's not about to buy a second car. And yes, they are all belted in.

stephen987 · February 2010

Sold. I'll take a stick-shift GLS in Pacific Blue Pearl with Camel interior. MSRP $19,195 according to www.hyundaiUSA.com.

wolverinejoe80 · February 2010

that's the perfect color combination!

Sandman6472 · February 2010

Totally agree with you on the smooth and powerful engine in the 3s...what I love about ours. But I also found the seats in the last generation 6 to be much better especially with my spinal issues. Almost bought one, an "I" version, but preferred the size of my Civic. But with things getting worse now, maybe the 6i would've been a smarter move...in hind site we're always 100% right!

The Sandman :sick: :shades:

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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