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Comments
Still, there are a few cars that can't be fully appreciated unless they're equipped with manuals. One such car is the 3-series BMW. I've been driving a 330i since 2001, & I can't imagine it with a slushbox. The few times that I've driven automatic BMWs (mostly dealer loaners) have left me asking myself: what's the point? If you really want to have fun with this car, you have to be willing to row it yourself.
If you had asked me 25 years ago why I preferred sticks, I would have tossed out fuel economy & lower maintenance as reasons. Today, I'd just say that in the right car, a stick is more fun to drive.
That was years ago, though, & I'm not sure that I'd feel the same way about it today. Now, my daily driver is a Long Island Rail Road M7 electric, which seats 120 in varying degrees of discomfort.
I guess that if I had to commute to work by car, I'd buy an automatic.
My wife often comments about how "you guys enjoy shifting". I don't think it is that I enjoy shifting, as I can shift the auto in my TL and I don't find that any fun.
My theory is that I (and perhaps others) really enjoy manuals because of the *responsiveness*. In my TL I have over 250hp at my disposal, but if I need to jam it I punch the throttle and after about 3/4 of a second it starts to take off. Then it launches like it has a rubber band stretched, slow at first and then Wham! Kind of rubbery and delayed. I hate that.
If my theory is correct I would enjoy VW/Audi's DSG transmission since although it shifts automatically, it is in direct contact like a manual. I've not driven one. Has anybody tried this and decided this is/is not the case?
I think if I was going to buy a BMW(not as a commute or daily driver) I would buy a stick as well but this is a midsize sedan thread and it just doesn't apply as well. One quick question though. I wonder what percentage of BMWs are bought with stick vs. auto? Doesn't really matter for this forum but was just curious.
That was years ago, though, & I'm not sure that I'd feel the same way about it today.
I'm older, but I still like the blonde in the next lane. :P
Hey, put your glasses on....that's a guy!
If my theory is correct I would enjoy VW/Audi's DSG transmission since although it shifts automatically, it is in direct contact like a manual. I've not driven one. Has anybody tried this and decided this is/is not the case?
Either you control it or you don't. If there are 16 computers and micro motors and servos in between you and the device, you are kidding yourself if you think you are controlling it. RE: Toyota drive by wire...
If you just want to feel crisp shifts, I don't think that is alot to ask for, the '76 Nova with a TH350 and a shift kit could do that.
Well, except when I hit snow(automatic and 4x4 is fail) or a winding road or am in a parking structure(yeah, that's me with the car at 3K rpm in first creeping around. I have no fear of keeping it in the 3-4K range for long periods of time, either. And revving it hard in third in a freeway tunnel to pass someone is a blast. The exhaust actually starts to properly resonate and sound like a real engine and not some sofa on wheels. :shades:
For me, though, it really is about responsiveness. I tell it what to do and it does it RIGHTNOW. Zero lag, no out-thinking me, no shifting for me. No computers. Just does what I tell it to do and yes, the noise is a good part of it.
I also think that's why I like really tight steering. It's not that I'm taking turns at 2G's, it's that I hate numb, nonresponsive steering. Which is why I don't buy Toyotas, although they might be great for some people. It's not about power, it is about responsiveness. To me an automatic transmission is numb in acceleration, just like a Camry might be numb in steering. And I currently drive automatic. It is easier, but it is a lot more numb!
So you could rank cars by steering numbness, something like (most responsive to numbest):
Mazda 6
Fusion
Sonata
Accord (shame, used to be a lot better)
Camry
And you could rank transmissions by numbness, something like (most responsive to numbest)
Manual
DSG
Auto with manual shift
Auto
It's perhaps the best 2+2 sports sedan on the market(yeah the rear doors are backwards and there's some visual trickery, but it's a 4 door sedan in reality). It's just a tenth of a second slower and a tick or two behind in the slalom and other tests from a base Boxster. That's saying quite a lot.
Tight handling and a manual that's as good as anything out of Europe. IT's very easy to drive fast...
But is it a midsized sedan? :P
It's just that to be honest, midsize sedans doesn't mean it has to also be a 4 door vanilla flavored jellybean looking thing without any soul. If you want that, just get a Corolla, which is literally "my communing box on wheels".
I think that midsize semi-luxury and sporty models that are in nearly new condition(couple of years used) should also be a reasonable consideration.
Now, if it HAD to be new, the new TSX gets my vote, because at 31K, it has everything included and you don't get gouged with a million options. But $31K is a lot of money. Below that, everything is so plain that it makes me cry. Because $20K nearly gets me a 3 year old G35 or something similar. A or B A or B... $20K is a lot of money to waste on a jellybean. Especially since you used to be able to get a midsize sedan a few years ago for $12-15K.
I just don't see the value in buying new any more unless it IS something worthy of keeping for 10-20 years.
Pretty boring to some people but can be actually quite interesting to those that frequent here quite a bit. I'm not a host, so I really have no say, other than to just let you know the discussion type you're in and what is normally discussed here. But hey, feel free to carry on, it's a free world.....in most places anyway.
Well I did confine my numbness discussion to midsized sedans. And some midsized sedans do have manual and DSG-style transmissions, do they not?
So it is on topic! :shades:
Last I heard even BMW was only in the 30% range for manuals, maybe less.
Computers can shift a DSG in milliseconds - way faster than you can do it yourself. But the point was with a DSG there is no torque converter lag because the gears are directly engaged just like a manual. Punch it and you get instant response.
I wasn't impressed with the Fusion. Technically it seemed pretty good - quiet, comfortable, nice ride, but it was butt ugly, both inside and out. Sorry, Ford.
I really liked the Malibu. Very attractive exterior and interior, quiet, good ride, very comfortable. Best of all the doors make a very satisfying "thunk" when you close them.
So my preferred midsize cars are, in order of preference:
1. Toyota Camry. Still the best car for me, all around. But will not buy it as long as there's substantial doubt as to its safety.
2. Honda Accord. Classy car, but ride is a bit noisy.
3. 2011 Hyundai Sonata. Very impressive car, but is it too sporty for an old guy like me?
4. Chevy Malibu. Very attractive, quiet car.
These top four are very close.
Bringing up the rear are
5. Nissan Altima. OK car but noisy engine.
6. Ford Fusion. Good car technically but looks like it was designed in the Soviet Union.
So at least I'm making some progress in narrowing things down.
I'd bet on less. When I bought my 330i, back in 2001, my sales guy couldn't find a single 4-door sedan with stick anywhere between Boston & D.C. I had to order a car from the factory to get what I wanted.
Ouch! Not that I'm planning to buy a Fusion, but I still own a few shares of Ford that I managed to buy back in the late 90s at close to its all-time high price.
You've got nothing to worry about, my friend. Last month, Ford sales as a whole went up 43% from Feb. '09, with Fusion sales up 116.5%. YTD, Ford sales are up 34% from '09.
And for the record, Camry sales slipped to 5th among midsize cars, with the Accord taking the top spot and the Fusion getting 3rd.
Well I'm 55 and just bought the Sonata Limited yesterday. I don't know if sporty is the word I'd use. Yes, the styling is aggressive. But I think it's very classy looking.
For me, I was coming out of a 2007 Camry, so I didn't want another. The Accord, equipped the way I wanted was going to be out of my price range, so I didn't even bother to drive it. Same for the Altima. The Malibu is out because I have a personal boycott of GM products dating back to the mid 90's.
So for me it was the Fusion or the Sonata. I felt the same way about the styling on the Fusion, especially the interior. I really wanted to like it because I wanted the BLIS and Sync. But I just couldn't do it after driving the Sonata. I got lucky and found one in white that just looks fantastic and I got a great price on the Limited with NAV. I couldn't be happier.
Good luck with your decision.
You know if you would have said something like that a couple of years ago they would have called the people in white suits to come get you.
That is so true. Matter of fact, while I was at the dealer yesterday there were 2 other people seriously looking at the Sonata. I was shocked that either one of them could get around without a walker.
That's a big number. I can't remember if I read it on autoblog or cars.com yesterday but it had Feb only sales for the Fusion at about 16k and the Malibu at 15k. It suprised me because I would have thought the spread would be a lot greater in favor of Fusion. Maybe GM just made a big sale to the rental fleets or something to make the Feb numbers pop. Don't know how they stand YTD or last 6 months.
You're on the internet now! Congratulations! :P
I hear he as a new color set!
Not everything newer is better.
Gee, thanks. :confuse:
It looks like I'll need another test drive on each one to make up my mind.
my advice is do what you want, but you are going to have defend your decision to your neighbors if you buy a toyota..
i have stayed with ford through thick and thin, but that is the way i am.
same way with the yankees, but now i get to gloat a bit there too.
P.S. The topic here says "Midsize Sedans". It doesn't say "Entry Level Midsize Sedans". So mentioning the wisdom of getting a medium-sized premium or sports sedan a couple of years new versus a midsize economy sedan wasn't out of place.
Don't quite know how to explain it any different or make it any easier. Of course mentioning that there may be some wisdom to buying a CPO luxury car in the same price range as one these new midsizers is fine. It's just when the conversation starts comparing the Boxter to the RX8, etc. etc. etc. that it is really boring for people not coming here for that discussion. Believe me, most of the people that are frequent poster on this forum actually are buying these same cars you call soul-less jellybeans.
Like I said, I'm not a host so what I say doesn't really matter. I'm just letting you know what the discussion has been about for years and there are reasons that we try to stay on topic. Otherwise it just becomes a jumbled mess.
2.9%
2011 Hyundai Sonata
1.9%
Honda Accord, Nissan Altima
0%
Toyota Camry, Ford Fusion, Chevy Malibu
Naturally the car that interests me the most has the highest interest rate.
It wasn't a CPO e-lux-sedan that was being referred to. It was a private party sale. A CPO would have been a different story.
As far as soul-less jelly beans, you know, no one has to defend anything. When someone on this board gives me the money to buy a car, I'll defend it. Until then...
akirby:
plekto pretty much summed up the ease for some of us to drive a stick in traffic. I just find coasting easier than holding my foot over the brake. I realize (and accept) that others don't feel that way.
m6user:
Perhaps you misunderstood my post. I was talking about the numerous people who say that they would get leg cramps if they drove a manual in traffic. My point was that you use your right leg a lot if you drive an automatic but no one ever complains about cramps.
Again, I totally understand that most people prefer automatics. I'm not forcing anyone to do anything nor am I putting anyone down. I also read through all the latest posts on the subject and can't remember any that sounded snobbish.
I think I did misunderstand. I thought you were kind of kidding. I guess the amount of pressure that one has to put on the brake and gas pedal when you're creeping along at 0-5mph is miniscule compared to pushing the clutch in and holding it in for long periods of time. I don't think it was a matter of being used to it because up until that point most of my previous 15 cars or so had been sticks. So I had a pretty strong left leg if you follow me. But after several long traffic jams it was definitely my left leg that felt like a limp noodle each time.
It really wasn't the latest posts I was referring to. There have been several long discussions on this topic over the last couple of years and they all end up the same and there have been some pretty obnoxious comments regarding the use of slushboxes. So I guess I was trying to head something off at the pass so to speak. Not a big deal for me. Sorry if I offended anyone.
Exactly. Holding a clutch takes a lot more force than holding the brake or gas. And again we're not talking about slow traffic, we're talking about stop-n-go for 2 hours straight (at least I am). Even though I shifted to Neutral and stretched my left leg a lot it was still killing me. And at that point I had been driving a stick daily for 14 years or so.
If it doesn't bother you guys - fantastic. Just don't tell us what we didn't experience.
heh-heh, and on the Future of Manual Transmissions thread.
There really isn't much point arguing about someone's personal preference. I've seen folks get obnoxious about a lot of things (there's a reason there's a 2.0 in this title.)
Sadly, the manual option in the midsize segment is fading fast.
Watch a big rig do it sometime. Shifting is the last thing they want to do. The idea is to stay in gear for as long as practical and keep it as steady as possible. So they creep along. You think the clutch in your car is rough? Try 12 hours a day with one of those things. There's a reason they avoid shifting like the plague. If you drive like this, which is initially completely counter-intuitive for most people, you let the engine compression act as the brakes and almost never touch either except to quickly change between first and second gear and back.(my gearing is a TAD too short to stay in first 100% of the time). Rev up, rev down. Gas pedal only.
Los Angeles traffic jam. The last one I was in a week or so ago I counted and shifted a whopping eight(8) times. 4-5 miles and 8 total times. I just don't see what the issue is. But It did take me years(I'll admit...) to figure out that driving like an automatic was the exact wrong thing to do with a manual. It really IS a totally different animal compared to the same car with an automatic.
Yes, I know some people get all angsty about the topic and car allowed, but it says "size" to me and not function. Therefore ANY midsize 4 door vehicle should apply. And some used cars are worth considering, to be honest. (used vs CPO is another discussion of course)
I see to the right that the 2011 Camry is listed. Is that model out yet, already?? Any changes? I am curious to see what kind of traffic the Toyota exhibit has this year. Usually it's one of the biggest displays, and full of people.