Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Midsize Sedans 2.0

1274275277279280544

Comments

  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    Although I've driven a stick for 40 of the 44 years that I've been a licensed driver, I agree with most of your post (Surprised?) Automatics are so much better today than they were when I started driving that the old fuel mileage / reliability arguments really don't hold much water any more.

    Still, there are a few cars that can't be fully appreciated unless they're equipped with manuals. One such car is the 3-series BMW. I've been driving a 330i since 2001, & I can't imagine it with a slushbox. The few times that I've driven automatic BMWs (mostly dealer loaners) have left me asking myself: what's the point? If you really want to have fun with this car, you have to be willing to row it yourself.

    If you had asked me 25 years ago why I preferred sticks, I would have tossed out fuel economy & lower maintenance as reasons. Today, I'd just say that in the right car, a stick is more fun to drive.
  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    I used to drive a stick in heavy (NYC metro area) traffic. Back then, it didn't bother me because I simply didn't think about it. I'd listen to the radio or stare at the blonde in the next lane or daydream about winning the lottery & punching out my boss. You could say that I was shifting gears automatically. I wasn't conscious of it at all.

    That was years ago, though, & I'm not sure that I'd feel the same way about it today. Now, my daily driver is a Long Island Rail Road M7 electric, which seats 120 in varying degrees of discomfort.

    I guess that if I had to commute to work by car, I'd buy an automatic.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    The favorite of course in a traffic jam is that it's in 2nd gear halfway wound up most of the time, so I just hit the throttle hard and launch into a gap. Often far quicker than anyone else around me.

    My wife often comments about how "you guys enjoy shifting". I don't think it is that I enjoy shifting, as I can shift the auto in my TL and I don't find that any fun.

    My theory is that I (and perhaps others) really enjoy manuals because of the *responsiveness*. In my TL I have over 250hp at my disposal, but if I need to jam it I punch the throttle and after about 3/4 of a second it starts to take off. Then it launches like it has a rubber band stretched, slow at first and then Wham! Kind of rubbery and delayed. I hate that.

    If my theory is correct I would enjoy VW/Audi's DSG transmission since although it shifts automatically, it is in direct contact like a manual. I've not driven one. Has anybody tried this and decided this is/is not the case?
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Why would I be surprised? If we had a disagreement I don't remember. That's the nice thing about getting older, you can argue one day and have a nice discussion the next.

    I think if I was going to buy a BMW(not as a commute or daily driver) I would buy a stick as well but this is a midsize sedan thread and it just doesn't apply as well. One quick question though. I wonder what percentage of BMWs are bought with stick vs. auto? Doesn't really matter for this forum but was just curious.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    edited March 2010
    I'd listen to the radio or stare at the blonde in the next lane or daydream about winning the lottery & punching out my boss. You could say that I was shifting gears automatically. I wasn't conscious of it at all.

    That was years ago, though, & I'm not sure that I'd feel the same way about it today.


    I'm older, but I still like the blonde in the next lane. :P
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I'm older, but I still like the blonde in the next lane

    Hey, put your glasses on....that's a guy!
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116

    If my theory is correct I would enjoy VW/Audi's DSG transmission since although it shifts automatically, it is in direct contact like a manual. I've not driven one. Has anybody tried this and decided this is/is not the case?


    Either you control it or you don't. If there are 16 computers and micro motors and servos in between you and the device, you are kidding yourself if you think you are controlling it. RE: Toyota drive by wire...

    If you just want to feel crisp shifts, I don't think that is alot to ask for, the '76 Nova with a TH350 and a shift kit could do that.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Of course, you CAN always decrease the spring pressure on most clutch pedals if it's really bothering you. Me, I don't notice it at all any more than people notice having to press an accelerator pedal for several hours on a long trip. But I've been driving manuals so long it doesn't even register that I'm driving one any more.

    Well, except when I hit snow(automatic and 4x4 is fail) or a winding road or am in a parking structure(yeah, that's me with the car at 3K rpm in first creeping around. I have no fear of keeping it in the 3-4K range for long periods of time, either. And revving it hard in third in a freeway tunnel to pass someone is a blast. The exhaust actually starts to properly resonate and sound like a real engine and not some sofa on wheels. :shades:

    For me, though, it really is about responsiveness. I tell it what to do and it does it RIGHTNOW. Zero lag, no out-thinking me, no shifting for me. No computers. Just does what I tell it to do and yes, the noise is a good part of it. ;)
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    For me, though, it really is about responsiveness. I tell it what to do and it does it RIGHTNOW. Zero lag, no out-thinking me, no shifting for me. No computers. Just does what I tell it to do and yes, the noise is a good part of it.

    I also think that's why I like really tight steering. It's not that I'm taking turns at 2G's, it's that I hate numb, nonresponsive steering. Which is why I don't buy Toyotas, although they might be great for some people. It's not about power, it is about responsiveness. To me an automatic transmission is numb in acceleration, just like a Camry might be numb in steering. And I currently drive automatic. It is easier, but it is a lot more numb!

    So you could rank cars by steering numbness, something like (most responsive to numbest):

    Mazda 6
    Fusion
    Sonata
    Accord (shame, used to be a lot better)
    Camry

    And you could rank transmissions by numbness, something like (most responsive to numbest)

    Manual
    DSG
    Auto with manual shift
    Auto
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    And, to throw a monkey wrench into that list, I'd add in the RX8. ;)

    It's perhaps the best 2+2 sports sedan on the market(yeah the rear doors are backwards and there's some visual trickery, but it's a 4 door sedan in reality). It's just a tenth of a second slower and a tick or two behind in the slalom and other tests from a base Boxster. That's saying quite a lot.

    Tight handling and a manual that's as good as anything out of Europe. IT's very easy to drive fast...
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    And, to throw a monkey wrench into that list, I'd add in the RX8.

    But is it a midsized sedan? :P
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Yeah, I hate to say it, but you guys do seem to be in the wrong thread. It sounds like you want to talk sport sedans or sport cars or something like that. Midsize sedans seem way to sedate for your professional driver tastes. ;)
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    I'm allowed a little humor, right? :P

    It's just that to be honest, midsize sedans doesn't mean it has to also be a 4 door vanilla flavored jellybean looking thing without any soul. If you want that, just get a Corolla, which is literally "my communing box on wheels".

    I think that midsize semi-luxury and sporty models that are in nearly new condition(couple of years used) should also be a reasonable consideration.

    Now, if it HAD to be new, the new TSX gets my vote, because at 31K, it has everything included and you don't get gouged with a million options. But $31K is a lot of money. Below that, everything is so plain that it makes me cry. Because $20K nearly gets me a 3 year old G35 or something similar. A or B A or B... $20K is a lot of money to waste on a jellybean. Especially since you used to be able to get a midsize sedan a few years ago for $12-15K.

    I just don't see the value in buying new any more unless it IS something worthy of keeping for 10-20 years.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Sure, humor is good. It's just that this thread is about the midsize, family type, mid-price sedans that you see pictured to the right. You know the soul-less jelly beans that Mr. average Joe buys and commutes to work in and hauls the family around in. :D

    Pretty boring to some people but can be actually quite interesting to those that frequent here quite a bit. I'm not a host, so I really have no say, other than to just let you know the discussion type you're in and what is normally discussed here. But hey, feel free to carry on, it's a free world.....in most places anyway.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    edited March 2010
    Yeah, I hate to say it, but you guys do seem to be in the wrong thread. It sounds like you want to talk sport sedans or sport cars or something like that. Midsize sedans seem way to sedate for your professional driver tastes.

    Well I did confine my numbness discussion to midsized sedans. And some midsized sedans do have manual and DSG-style transmissions, do they not?

    So it is on topic! :shades:
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I wonder what percentage of BMWs are bought with stick vs. auto?

    Last I heard even BMW was only in the 30% range for manuals, maybe less.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Either you control it or you don't. If there are 16 computers and micro motors and servos in between you and the device, you are kidding yourself if you think you are controlling it.

    Computers can shift a DSG in milliseconds - way faster than you can do it yourself. But the point was with a DSG there is no torque converter lag because the gears are directly engaged just like a manual. Punch it and you get instant response.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    You should be in politics with that kind of spin. :D
  • andyfromvaandyfromva Member Posts: 79
    After test driving the 2011 Sonata, the Camry, the Accord, the Altima a few days ago I test drove the Fusion and Malibu today.

    I wasn't impressed with the Fusion. Technically it seemed pretty good - quiet, comfortable, nice ride, but it was butt ugly, both inside and out. Sorry, Ford.

    I really liked the Malibu. Very attractive exterior and interior, quiet, good ride, very comfortable. Best of all the doors make a very satisfying "thunk" when you close them.

    So my preferred midsize cars are, in order of preference:
    1. Toyota Camry. Still the best car for me, all around. But will not buy it as long as there's substantial doubt as to its safety.
    2. Honda Accord. Classy car, but ride is a bit noisy.
    3. 2011 Hyundai Sonata. Very impressive car, but is it too sporty for an old guy like me?
    4. Chevy Malibu. Very attractive, quiet car.

    These top four are very close.

    Bringing up the rear are
    5. Nissan Altima. OK car but noisy engine.
    6. Ford Fusion. Good car technically but looks like it was designed in the Soviet Union.

    So at least I'm making some progress in narrowing things down.
  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    Last I heard even BMW was only in the 30% range for manuals, maybe less.

    I'd bet on less. When I bought my 330i, back in 2001, my sales guy couldn't find a single 4-door sedan with stick anywhere between Boston & D.C. I had to order a car from the factory to get what I wanted.
  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    6. Ford Fusion. Good car technically but looks like it was designed in the Soviet Union.

    Ouch! Not that I'm planning to buy a Fusion, but I still own a few shares of Ford that I managed to buy back in the late 90s at close to its all-time high price.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Ouch! Not that I'm planning to buy a Fusion, but I still own a few shares of Ford that I managed to buy back in the late 90s at close to its all-time high price.

    You've got nothing to worry about, my friend. Last month, Ford sales as a whole went up 43% from Feb. '09, with Fusion sales up 116.5%. YTD, Ford sales are up 34% from '09.

    And for the record, Camry sales slipped to 5th among midsize cars, with the Accord taking the top spot and the Fusion getting 3rd.
  • midas69midas69 Member Posts: 118
    3. 2011 Hyundai Sonata. Very impressive car, but is it too sporty for an old guy like me?

    Well I'm 55 and just bought the Sonata Limited yesterday. I don't know if sporty is the word I'd use. Yes, the styling is aggressive. But I think it's very classy looking.

    For me, I was coming out of a 2007 Camry, so I didn't want another. The Accord, equipped the way I wanted was going to be out of my price range, so I didn't even bother to drive it. Same for the Altima. The Malibu is out because I have a personal boycott of GM products dating back to the mid 90's.

    So for me it was the Fusion or the Sonata. I felt the same way about the styling on the Fusion, especially the interior. I really wanted to like it because I wanted the BLIS and Sync. But I just couldn't do it after driving the Sonata. I got lucky and found one in white that just looks fantastic and I got a great price on the Limited with NAV. I couldn't be happier.

    Good luck with your decision.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    2011 Hyundai Sonata. Very impressive car, but is it too sporty for an old guy like me?

    You know if you would have said something like that a couple of years ago they would have called the people in white suits to come get you.
  • midas69midas69 Member Posts: 118
    You know if you would have said something like that a couple of years ago they would have called the people in white suits to come get you.

    That is so true. Matter of fact, while I was at the dealer yesterday there were 2 other people seriously looking at the Sonata. I was shocked that either one of them could get around without a walker.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Fusion sales up 116.5%. YTD

    That's a big number. I can't remember if I read it on autoblog or cars.com yesterday but it had Feb only sales for the Fusion at about 16k and the Malibu at 15k. It suprised me because I would have thought the spread would be a lot greater in favor of Fusion. Maybe GM just made a big sale to the rental fleets or something to make the Feb numbers pop. Don't know how they stand YTD or last 6 months.
  • shabadoo25shabadoo25 Member Posts: 232
    I'll drive a stick again as soon as I get finished signing up for dial up Internet.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I'll drive a stick again as soon as I get finished signing up for dial up Internet.

    You're on the internet now! Congratulations! :P
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    You'll have to wait a moment for him to reply. He had to get up and walk across the room to change the channel on his TV and adjust the rabbit ears to get a clear picture. ;)
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    You'll have to wait a moment for him to reply. He had to get up and walk across the room to change the channel on his TV and adjust the rabbit ears to get a clear picture.

    I hear he as a new color set!
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Right, because cooking chicken in a microwave is way more fun than doing it over hot misquite briquettes in the BBQ.

    Not everything newer is better.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    i think you should buy the camry because it's what you really want and i don't care about your safety. :P
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • andyfromvaandyfromva Member Posts: 79
    i think you should buy the camry because it's what you really want and i don't care about your safety.

    Gee, thanks. :confuse:
  • andyfromvaandyfromva Member Posts: 79
    I think I've narrowed it down to an Accord LX-P (classic black color) or a 2011 Hyundai Sonata GLS (Indigo Blue Pearl). Both are similarly equipped.

    It looks like I'll need another test drive on each one to make up my mind.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Well, add another cog to the Accord's tranny (plus Shiftronic), then add Bluetooth to it, plus some horses under the hood, and then they are getting closer to "similarly equipped". ;)
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    you are really basing your purchase decision by what someone posts here?
    my advice is do what you want, but you are going to have defend your decision to your neighbors if you buy a toyota..
    i have stayed with ford through thick and thin, but that is the way i am.
    same way with the yankees, but now i get to gloat a bit there too. ;)
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    edited March 2010
    One nice thing, though, is that manual transmission Toyotas don't have the issue(or it can be dealt with instantly several different ways). So you can get a used 4 cylinder Camry with manual in it for a near GM price soon because the other 95% of the Camrys will be worth almost nothing.

    P.S. The topic here says "Midsize Sedans". It doesn't say "Entry Level Midsize Sedans". So mentioning the wisdom of getting a medium-sized premium or sports sedan a couple of years new versus a midsize economy sedan wasn't out of place.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Uh, if you look to the top of this page you will find a line that says "what is this discussion about" and it will show a list of cars. Those same cars are shown to the right. Now the conversation is not limited to just these cars because that is all Edmunds has room for. Example, the Legacy is not there but it is still a moderate priced midsize sedan. There are are other forums that specifically discuss entry level luxury cars or luxury cars like Acura, Infiniti, BMW, Lexus, Mercedes, Porshe etc. There are also sports car type forums.

    Don't quite know how to explain it any different or make it any easier. Of course mentioning that there may be some wisdom to buying a CPO luxury car in the same price range as one these new midsizers is fine. It's just when the conversation starts comparing the Boxter to the RX8, etc. etc. etc. that it is really boring for people not coming here for that discussion. Believe me, most of the people that are frequent poster on this forum actually are buying these same cars you call soul-less jellybeans.

    Like I said, I'm not a host so what I say doesn't really matter. I'm just letting you know what the discussion has been about for years and there are reasons that we try to stay on topic. Otherwise it just becomes a jumbled mess.
  • andyfromvaandyfromva Member Posts: 79
    edited March 2010
    Here are the financing deals available in my part of the country during March for the cars I'm interested in (60 month financing).

    2.9%
    2011 Hyundai Sonata

    1.9%
    Honda Accord, Nissan Altima

    0%
    Toyota Camry, Ford Fusion, Chevy Malibu

    Naturally the car that interests me the most has the highest interest rate. :(
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    CPO luxury

    It wasn't a CPO e-lux-sedan that was being referred to. It was a private party sale. A CPO would have been a different story.

    As far as soul-less jelly beans, you know, no one has to defend anything. When someone on this board gives me the money to buy a car, I'll defend it. Until then...
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    0% is very attractive, although you have to live with the yourself and car.
  • tallman1tallman1 Member Posts: 1,874
    Gee, busy day. I'm just getting back to read the posts here.

    akirby:
    plekto pretty much summed up the ease for some of us to drive a stick in traffic. I just find coasting easier than holding my foot over the brake. I realize (and accept) that others don't feel that way.

    m6user:
    Perhaps you misunderstood my post. I was talking about the numerous people who say that they would get leg cramps if they drove a manual in traffic. My point was that you use your right leg a lot if you drive an automatic but no one ever complains about cramps.

    Again, I totally understand that most people prefer automatics. I'm not forcing anyone to do anything nor am I putting anyone down. I also read through all the latest posts on the subject and can't remember any that sounded snobbish. :)
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    My point was that you use your right leg a lot if you drive an automatic but no one ever complains about cramps

    I think I did misunderstand. I thought you were kind of kidding. I guess the amount of pressure that one has to put on the brake and gas pedal when you're creeping along at 0-5mph is miniscule compared to pushing the clutch in and holding it in for long periods of time. I don't think it was a matter of being used to it because up until that point most of my previous 15 cars or so had been sticks. So I had a pretty strong left leg if you follow me. But after several long traffic jams it was definitely my left leg that felt like a limp noodle each time.

    It really wasn't the latest posts I was referring to. There have been several long discussions on this topic over the last couple of years and they all end up the same and there have been some pretty obnoxious comments regarding the use of slushboxes. So I guess I was trying to head something off at the pass so to speak. Not a big deal for me. Sorry if I offended anyone.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I don't think it was a matter of being used to it because up until that point most of my previous 15 cars or so had been sticks. So I had a pretty strong left leg if you follow me. But after several long traffic jams it was definitely my left leg that felt like a limp noodle each time.

    Exactly. Holding a clutch takes a lot more force than holding the brake or gas. And again we're not talking about slow traffic, we're talking about stop-n-go for 2 hours straight (at least I am). Even though I shifted to Neutral and stretched my left leg a lot it was still killing me. And at that point I had been driving a stick daily for 14 years or so.

    If it doesn't bother you guys - fantastic. Just don't tell us what we didn't experience.
  • tallman1tallman1 Member Posts: 1,874
    There have been several long discussions on this topic over the last couple of years

    heh-heh, and on the Future of Manual Transmissions thread.

    There really isn't much point arguing about someone's personal preference. I've seen folks get obnoxious about a lot of things (there's a reason there's a 2.0 in this title.) ;)

    Sadly, the manual option in the midsize segment is fading fast. :cry:
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    edited March 2010
    Unless it's literally gridlock, you can easily let a little lag develop so that you can creep in first gear for hundreds of yards or even miles at a time.

    Watch a big rig do it sometime. Shifting is the last thing they want to do. The idea is to stay in gear for as long as practical and keep it as steady as possible. So they creep along. You think the clutch in your car is rough? Try 12 hours a day with one of those things. There's a reason they avoid shifting like the plague. If you drive like this, which is initially completely counter-intuitive for most people, you let the engine compression act as the brakes and almost never touch either except to quickly change between first and second gear and back.(my gearing is a TAD too short to stay in first 100% of the time). Rev up, rev down. Gas pedal only.

    Los Angeles traffic jam. The last one I was in a week or so ago I counted and shifted a whopping eight(8) times. 4-5 miles and 8 total times. I just don't see what the issue is. But It did take me years(I'll admit...) to figure out that driving like an automatic was the exact wrong thing to do with a manual. It really IS a totally different animal compared to the same car with an automatic.

    Yes, I know some people get all angsty about the topic and car allowed, but it says "size" to me and not function. Therefore ANY midsize 4 door vehicle should apply. And some used cars are worth considering, to be honest. (used vs CPO is another discussion of course)
  • syitalian25syitalian25 Member Posts: 303
    Plus 2.9% interest on $23000 is still less than 0% interest on $28,000.
  • syitalian25syitalian25 Member Posts: 303
    not to mention 100k powertrain warranty, and I am pretty sure the Accord costs most too?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Also, what are you actually paying for that reduced interest? Usually you can get a rebate OR lower interest. Say you can get 3.9% from your local bank/credit union, or from a lender the dealer has lined up (I know that is possible, from recent experience) for 60 months. It might be better financially to take the rebate vs. the automaker's lower rate--and consider your financed amount will be less, and sales tax will be less also.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    waiting to go to my local auto show this weekend. Can't wait to check out all the mid-sized cars (and some others). It will be my first close-up look at the Kizashi, LaCrosse, and Regal, and also of the refreshed Fulan and Altima (at last year's show, they had the 2010 Fulans all locked up). Also hope they have a 2011 Sonata GLS there, as I haven't seen that trim yet.

    I see to the right that the 2011 Camry is listed. Is that model out yet, already?? Any changes? I am curious to see what kind of traffic the Toyota exhibit has this year. Usually it's one of the biggest displays, and full of people.
Sign In or Register to comment.