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Comments
(for the younger set, not myself...though it is tennis weather for me)
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
After reading online reviews of these vehicles, I was expecting them to feel quite different from one another, but after test driving them, I found they were far more similar than I expected. I only got to drive on a relatively straight, yet bumpy highway though, so I don't think I got to assess each car as well as I could have. Still, most of my driving is on the highway, so I guess it doesn't matter as much.
I'm coming out of a 1998 Neon, so needless to say, I found driving both cars quite a pleasure. Some of my impressions:
- I found the Sonata's driver's seat more comfortable than the Ford's despite the Ford having power lumbar support. The Sonata's seat was nice and fairly firm, which I liked.
- The Hyundai and Ford rode fairly similarly, though I think the Sonata was just a bit more absorbant.
- Despite having the smaller engine, the Ford's throttle response was more instant, and I liked that. However, the engine was noticeably louder and not as smooth as the Sonata's.
- I didn't really get a great chance to see how well the vehicles handle, but the Sonata's steering was firmer than I remembered it being in the 2006 model I tested a few years back. Sure, it's not as firm or natural-feeling as in my 1998 Neon or the Ford Fusion, but as with the ride quality, I guess I didn't notice as big a difference in the steering as I expected.
- The Sonata's interior was far nicer than the Fusion's. My mom came with me on the test drive and noted that the Fusion's interior reminded her of my 1998 Dodge Neon's in that it was fairly chintzy, and I'd have to agree.
Of the two, I prefer the Sonata a bit more. It was a 2009 GLS with a V6, had 9,000 miles, and was $14,676. However, after taxes and the extended warranty, the price rose to a little over $18,000, which seemed very high, definitely above what I'm able to pay. The extended warranty was only an estimate, though it was valued at $2,000. I know we could have done much, much better, but my main goal was just to get a feel for the two vehicles and have a rough idea of the car-buying process.
I think the 2008 Honda Accord LX would be my most desired car of the group of cars I'm considering because I'm going to have to keep the car for about 5 years, and it's the newest design of the bunch. I've seen some on Carsoup that have around 35-40k miles for just under $15,000, and I'm just fine with that mileage since I don't drive that much. So I'll test drive an '08 Accord LX and if I can't afford that, I'll try out an '07 to see how it compares with the Sonata.
Also, that extended warranty sounds like a ripoff - It was only $1200 on the new Sonata, how are they charging $2000 for a 2009? On this site they have the 2010 GLS V6 for $15,815, at least you could print it out and use it to negotiate with your dealer. http://cars.overstock.com/configurator.html?makeId=2235&modelId=443&upfrontPrici- ng=Y
I heard the government is going to be giving some kind of big subsidy to people who buy plug-in electric hybrids, so maybe that is what Chevy is counting on. I guess the first bailout wasn't enough
are you going to complain if Hyundai gets a tax break for their first hybrid model?
From what I've read, there is expected to be a very large rebate/subsidy/tax credit or whatever which will bring the net price on the Volt down close to 30k which would entice a lot of people.
A concern for me is that these types of vehicles seem to not live up to expectations when you factor in extreme winter conditions. It's kind of like having a convertible in the upper midwest. Just not worth it to most people.
It sounds like you are against giving incentives from the taxpayers to buy cars. I suppose that applied to the huge incentives for the Prius?
> I guess the first bailout wasn't enough
Would you rather have had the companies go backrupt and quit producing and quit buying parts from thousands of supply companies throughout this country?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
What's next? $40K Toyota Camry-EV? The whole Volt is based on the Cruze, which slots in below the Malibu in their lineup. Maybe we can look forward to a $40K Ford Focus EV as well then.
I didn't support huge incentives for Prius buyers either .. the government should provide funding for research to help develop cheaper batteries and other technology, that is great, but then let the consumers decide what to buy based on the free market. If Toyota or Chevy or whoever made a car with excellent MPG (like the Volt and Prius have) and sold them for a fair price, they would reap the rewards of selling more vehicles then the competition. Personally I think the entire "green" movement is a way for the government and corporations to get people to expect less and pay more for it. Like I said, make these cars at reasonable prices and people will do the math, see it's a good value, and buy them. The tax subsidy just takes the money from people in a round-about sort of way so they don't notice they are shelling out $40K for a $30K car, because believe me, that money is coming from somewhere.
>Would you rather have had the companies go bankrupt and quit producing and quit buying parts from thousands of supply companies throughout this country?
I don't want GM go bankrupt and I love to see American companies on top, but sadly it is just not the reality as it was 40 years ago. I resent having the government being forced to decide between letting millions of people lose their jobs or throwing good money after bad at a company that has made an astounding amount of bad decisions and crap products in the past 20 years. If any other company did this they would fail, and rightfully so. Unfortunately for us in the USA we are screwed either way I am glad to see Ford seems to have realized some of their stupidity and are working to correct it under new management, hopefully they will continue to improve in the right areas and make American cars the best cars again.
Also, like the Prius, it's a hatchback--not a sedan.
As for Hyundai enjoy your resale value :shades:
Think of how many more buyers Ford would have if GM had gone under. If the total demand for vehicles remains the same, the sales would shift to other makes. Since even a high proportion of foreign nameplates are assembled in the US, it would not have been as bad as would first appear, and then the strongest companies would have survived and the weakest companies (C and GM) would have failed.
I also believe that in a non-bailed out BK, portions of GM would have been bought and continued, but the bad portions (and the union contracts) would have been liquidated. So it is not at all clear that what has occurred is better in the long run than if we had let the market just run its course.
Is that the only thing the haters are trying to hold over Hyundai to claim it is still a crappy brand? lol :P
Marketwatch - "FOUNTAIN VALLEY, Calif., Feb 08, 2010 /PRNewswire via COMTEX/ -- Hyundai's completely redesigned 2011 Sonata that delivers best-in-class fuel economy and 200 horsepower is setting the standard for residual values as well. Right out of the box, the Hyundai Sonata GLS with automatic transmission received an impressive 36-month residual value of 54 percent of manufacturer's suggested retail price (MSRP) from Automotive Lease Guide (ALG), the industry benchmark for residual values and a leading provider of data and consulting services to the automotive industry. The residual value topped popular competitive 2010 models from Toyota, Nissan, Ford, and Chevrolet, in addition to premium brands such as Lexus, BMW and Mercedes.
This represents the lowest depreciation in the midsize car segment. The 2011 Sonata even outperforms Honda, depreciating $640 over a three-year period less than a comparably-equipped 2010 model year Accord. Strong residuals add to Sonata's value equation, indicating higher trade-in value for buyers and lower monthly payment for lessees."
To be fair, I read somewhere the Accord was readjusted to 55% so the Sonata is second by 1% (tied with the Altima and above all the others).. I think people are going to get tired of paying $17K for a used Accord with 40000 miles on it anyways.
Your post comes across as uninformed. GM is not marking up the Volt to make unreasonable profits on the backs of consumers or to bleed the government dry. The Volt at $40K would be a loss-leader for the first few years of production. There has been a huge amount of R&D going into the Volt & the Voltec powertrain. R&D is expensive.
Also, the battery pack alone has an initial cost of $8-10K; if you don't believe me, go look at what the batteries are costing for the Leaf, i-MiEV, Mini-E, and other pure electrics.
Quick exercise: Let's take another car on the same platform like the Cruze and add a battery pack to that. Now add two powerful electric motors (the Volt has two), add the other tech needed for a pure EV to work (every single accessory and feature needs to be electric as there is no belt-driven AC, no siphoning of engine heat to warm the cabin, no belt-driven power steering/braking, etc.), put in a low-power radio that still sounds good, low-power lighting, battery conditioning hardware (heat it when it's cold, cool it when it's hot), and a huge amount of complicated software. It isn't hard to come up with the bandied-about $40K MSRP.
In addition, GM warrants the battery for 150K miles (or so many years ..10 or 15 I don't remember which) and to cover that obligation they initially factored in to the MSRP an entire replacement battery. They have since toned that down as the battery packs are holding up well under their testing.
Expect a post-incentive price of under $30K, although just barely. And don't expect it to be profitable until 2015 at the earliest.
Anyway, as Backy intimated, this is the wrong thread for Volt discussions. I don't mind the thread drift myself, as long as we find our way back to the topic at hand. Which we should probably start doing before our hosts give us a gentle reminder.
Anyways, we should divert course back to the mid-size topic - anyone know when the new Accord/Camry/Fusion/Malibu/Altima models are coming out to try and compete with the Sonata? Any word on details or spy photos yet?
I thought the Volt was to be a midsized car, it isn't? :confuse:
I think I'd be careful with that form of putdown after watching toyota-lexus get caught with their pants down on ethics for the last 8 years in re safety of their customers and after watching Odyssey transmissions continue the Honda lack of longevity on transmissions and now the VCM problems in Honda's V6s.
Resale values lag the reality of the auto for years as people who "heard" that certain cars are "better" continue to pay dollars based on long gone reputations in the used market. I certainly view Hyundai differently than I did 3 years ago when I first shopped Sonata. I would buy new or used. My only negative is that there is no dealer especially closeby to shop Hyundai. There is a nearby Kia dealership which used to be another brand's store.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I agree with providing incentives to get mfrs to create and sell hybrids but I also think they could have given the money directly to the mfrs to offset development costs rather than subsidize the cars directly. I don't like artificial market manipulation either.
Please note that this has NOTHING to do with how much you pay or get back when filing because that depends on how much was withheld. For example:
before tax credit
Taxes owed: $5000
Withholding: $5500
You get a $500 refund because you overpaid by $500.
with tax credit
Taxes owed: $5000
minus tax credit of $1750
New Taxes owed: $3250
Withholding: $5500
You get a $2250 refund.
If you ended up paying less than $1750 in taxes then you can't get credit for more than what you paid.
If you treated the tax credit like a deduction then you lost money and need to amend your return.
http://www.insideline.com/hyundai/elantra/2011/2011-hyundai-elantra-exclusive-sp- y-shots-and-video.html
I am from Chevrolet Customer Assistance. I cannot comment on the other vehicles that you are inquiring about. However, the 2011 Malibu starts production in mid-June. It usually takes 6-8 weeks from this date before you will see them at the dealerships. Thank you,
Mariah Chevrolet Cusotmer Assistance
My first choice was the 2011 sonata and I waited for it - in spite of it being a 4 cyl. It has 200 (or 198) hp. My wife and I (in our early 50s) narrowed it to the sonata and fusion. We test drove the 4 cyl SEL fusion (no 6 cylinders on the lot) and were impressed by the interior of the car, the visibility and handling. But we didn't want the 4 cyl as it lacked in power. We went to the hyundai dealership next. We drove the 2011 sonata limited. Beautiful car! It is definitely a 4 cyl and not a 4 cyl with the power of a 6 cyl. (I'm not interested in a 4 cyl with twin turbos coming out in april.) We were rather disappointed. We thought it was cheaply built, underpowered (albeit we knew it was a 4 cyl) and we found the engine to be loud when pushed. They had some 2010s on the lot and we drove a 6 cyl sonata limited. We found it to be a far superior car to the 2011, but we didn't like the wind noise. We ranked them 1) camry 2) fusion and 3) sonata.
On our way home we reluctantly decided to stop at a toyota dealership. We hadn't even thought about a toyota. We drove a 2010 camry 4 cyl xle. It had the same or better performance of the 2011 sonata and we felt it was a far superior car to the sonata or the fusion. Before trying the 6 cyl camry, we saw a venza on the lot (hadn't even considered anything like that as we wanted a sedan) and test drove it. We thought it was far superior to anything we had driven and was like an upscale camry. For us, this was a no-brainer. We bought a 6 cyl venza. We were not interested in anything other than a sedan and walked away very pleased.
Mariah Chevrolet Customer Assistance
I'd rented a new Corolla last summer and thought it was much less pleasant and had far poorer build quality than the last gen. Corolla-- far cheaper than the competition. Apparently the Camry/Venza is cheapened less than the smaller car.
This may have been discussed earlier. Don't get around to this thread as much as I used to since my car (the Optima) has been dropped as a subject header.
Suggestion-- Since the Aura is no more and there's a new gen. Optima about to be launched is there any way to get that back in the mix?
This may have been discussed earlier. Don't get around to this thread as much as I used to since my car (the Optima) has been dropped as a subject header.
It's still a midsize sedan, right? We can still chat about not only the Optima, but the Legacy, the Kizashi, and even the Avenger/Sebring (on a very slow, I'm-desperate-enough-to-talk-about-ANY-midsize-sedan day ).
Stick around for a while, we're relatively harmless...
And we've been waiting for months for an Aura replacement, but our requests seem to fall on deaf ears...
Or I suppose C/D could test the 2011 Optima and actually like it better than the Sonata, and make it a 10Best selection.
We actually had looked at these (not the avalon as we had no interest in a toytota product) prior to deciding on a venza. From driving the venza to buying the venza was about one week. We ruled out the nissans because of the CVT - didn't want that; we didn't drive the taurus, but thought it was overpriced and unattractive, and we thought the genesis was nice, but didn't want to spend more than $30k. The 6 cyl venza with premium package, tow packge, rear bumper protector and a few other things was just under $30 OTD using the USAA purchase program. We couldn't approach that in the genesis.
But it looks to me like hyundai focused on an electronics package for youths with a car built around it focusing on "green" or "saving the planet". We're conservative christians and take care of the earth it, but don't worship and we don't talk on the phone or text while driving so those things didn't matter to us. IF the 2011 sonata had a 6 cyl option this year, I genuinely think we may have purchased it and probably not have even gone to the toyota dealer, but who knows. We're happy with our decision and that's what is important to us.