Midsize Sedans 2.0

jeffyscott · March 2010

When it gets into the 50s that is shorts weather around here

(for the younger set, not myself...though it is tennis weather for me)

iluvmysephia1 · March 2010

just where do you live, anyway? North somewhere?

fushigi · March 2010

Volt is not a concept car. Here are the prototypes being built. http://gm-volt.com/2010/03/25/2012-model-year-chevy-volt-prototypes-currently-un- der-assembly/

jeffyscott · March 2010

According to what it says there, those are prototypes for the second model year, 2012. The first Volts are supposed to be for sale this fall as 2011s.

syitalian25 · March 2010

At least in the new Sonata, if you hit it twice it skips one gear and goes right to the next (i.e. if you are in 3rd, hit the + shifter twice, you go right to 5th.)

serenity185 · March 2010

I'm currently in the market for a 2-3 year old midsized family sedan for around $13,000 - $15,000 before the extended warranty and taxes. I had the 2009 Hyundai Sonata GLS, 2008 Honda Accord LX, and 2008 Ford Fusion SEL on my list, though I'm still flexible as to model and engine now. I got to test drive the Sonata and Fusion today- both with the V6 and in my price range. It was the GLS and SEL model, respectively.

After reading online reviews of these vehicles, I was expecting them to feel quite different from one another, but after test driving them, I found they were far more similar than I expected. I only got to drive on a relatively straight, yet bumpy highway though, so I don't think I got to assess each car as well as I could have. Still, most of my driving is on the highway, so I guess it doesn't matter as much.

I'm coming out of a 1998 Neon, so needless to say, I found driving both cars quite a pleasure. Some of my impressions:

- I found the Sonata's driver's seat more comfortable than the Ford's despite the Ford having power lumbar support. The Sonata's seat was nice and fairly firm, which I liked.

- The Hyundai and Ford rode fairly similarly, though I think the Sonata was just a bit more absorbant.

- Despite having the smaller engine, the Ford's throttle response was more instant, and I liked that. However, the engine was noticeably louder and not as smooth as the Sonata's.

- I didn't really get a great chance to see how well the vehicles handle, but the Sonata's steering was firmer than I remembered it being in the 2006 model I tested a few years back. Sure, it's not as firm or natural-feeling as in my 1998 Neon or the Ford Fusion, but as with the ride quality, I guess I didn't notice as big a difference in the steering as I expected.

- The Sonata's interior was far nicer than the Fusion's. My mom came with me on the test drive and noted that the Fusion's interior reminded her of my 1998 Dodge Neon's in that it was fairly chintzy, and I'd have to agree.

Of the two, I prefer the Sonata a bit more. It was a 2009 GLS with a V6, had 9,000 miles, and was $14,676. However, after taxes and the extended warranty, the price rose to a little over $18,000, which seemed very high, definitely above what I'm able to pay. The extended warranty was only an estimate, though it was valued at $2,000. I know we could have done much, much better, but my main goal was just to get a feel for the two vehicles and have a rough idea of the car-buying process.

I think the 2008 Honda Accord LX would be my most desired car of the group of cars I'm considering because I'm going to have to keep the car for about 5 years, and it's the newest design of the bunch. I've seen some on Carsoup that have around 35-40k miles for just under $15,000, and I'm just fine with that mileage since I don't drive that much. So I'll test drive an '08 Accord LX and if I can't afford that, I'll try out an '07 to see how it compares with the Sonata.

benjaminh · March 2010

I saw an ad for the last of the 2010 Sonatas for 14.5k. Why not go for one of those?

backy · March 2010

For sure! Also, for the same money as a slightly used Accord LX one can get a 2009 Sonata GLS with the power seat and moonroof package--much more equipment than the Accord LX, and with a longer bumper-to-bumper warranty than the Accord's before the cost of an extended warranty.

fushigi · March 2010

Tell me, what is your source of information that says the Volt won't ship on time?

syitalian25 · March 2010

Hyundai is offering thousands of dollars in rebates on their 2010/2009 Sonata models, if you are seriously considering paying $18K I'd see what you could negotiate a new 2009 Sonata GLS V6 down to. The MSRP is only like $23K, and Hyundai is giving 5K in rebates, if you got the dealer to give you another $2500 you'd be at the price you are looking for and driving a new one.

Also, that extended warranty sounds like a ripoff - It was only $1200 on the new Sonata, how are they charging $2000 for a 2009? On this site they have the 2010 GLS V6 for $15,815, at least you could print it out and use it to negotiate with your dealer. http://cars.overstock.com/configurator.html?makeId=2235&modelId=443&upfrontPrici- ng=Y

akirby · March 2010

He said they would be shipping this fall.

m6user · March 2010

Are there actually Hyundai dealers with 2009s left? Most dealers are finishing out the 2010 Sonatas. There may be a few new ones left but even a used 2009 V6 LTD for around 14k would be a good deal and still have plenty of btb warranty left.

tenpin288 · March 2010

Hey grad, just curious. Are you still looking or did you decide to wait for another day?

fushigi · March 2010

My bad; the original was from acdii: "We shall see, that is if it ever hits production. A lot good a concept car does going up Pikes Peak if they can't get it onto dealer lots." Seems to be in denial that the product will come out at all, let alone on time.

syitalian25 · March 2010

I don't see the Volt selling too well if they don't get the price down into the $25K-$30K range. People with $40,000 to spend on a car are not the ones most concerned with fuel economy and definitely not the ones that want to be bothered with the pain of owning an electric plug-in (for the most part). Didn't Chevy learn anything from Ford's mistake with the new Taurus about pricing a car too high for what it is?

I heard the government is going to be giving some kind of big subsidy to people who buy plug-in electric hybrids, so maybe that is what Chevy is counting on. I guess the first bailout wasn't enough

explorerx4 · March 2010

the government has provided incentive to purchase new technology for years, the Volt and others like are no different.
are you going to complain if Hyundai gets a tax break for their first hybrid model?

m6user · March 2010

If you took the average income of Prius buyers I think you would find that it is a lot higher than other people buying similarly priced cars. Lots of hollywood types drive the Prius for both an eco stance and/or a status symbol. It's not up to me to judge anybody's motives.

From what I've read, there is expected to be a very large rebate/subsidy/tax credit or whatever which will bring the net price on the Volt down close to 30k which would entice a lot of people.

A concern for me is that these types of vehicles seem to not live up to expectations when you factor in extreme winter conditions. It's kind of like having a convertible in the upper midwest. Just not worth it to most people.

imidazol97 · March 2010

>eard the government is going to be giving some kind of big subsidy to people who buy plug-in electric hybrids, so maybe that is what Chevy is counting on. I guess the first bailout wasn't enough

It sounds like you are against giving incentives from the taxpayers to buy cars. I suppose that applied to the huge incentives for the Prius?

> I guess the first bailout wasn't enough

Would you rather have had the companies go backrupt and quit producing and quit buying parts from thousands of supply companies throughout this country?

syitalian25 · March 2010

I read that the government is giving a $7500 rebate. The difference is, Hyundai wouldn't charge $40K for a $30K car, so the rebate would just be icing on the cake and make a ridiculous bargain. Chevy is just raising the price by $7500 from what the car is worth (and that is arguably high as well but we will have to wait to see the full list of feature and specs), then letting the government pick up the tab so they can pocket $7500 per car basically. What is Chevy going to do if/when the government subsidy goes away? Just hope there are enough Eco-conscious celebrities to buy these things? I would hope they are not short-sighted enough to produce a car that costs more than most people are willing to pay for it.. that's just bad business.

What's next? $40K Toyota Camry-EV? The whole Volt is based on the Cruze, which slots in below the Malibu in their lineup. Maybe we can look forward to a $40K Ford Focus EV as well then.

syitalian25 · March 2010

>It sounds like you are against giving incentives from the taxpayers to buy cars. I suppose that applied to the huge incentives for the Prius?

I didn't support huge incentives for Prius buyers either .. the government should provide funding for research to help develop cheaper batteries and other technology, that is great, but then let the consumers decide what to buy based on the free market. If Toyota or Chevy or whoever made a car with excellent MPG (like the Volt and Prius have) and sold them for a fair price, they would reap the rewards of selling more vehicles then the competition. Personally I think the entire "green" movement is a way for the government and corporations to get people to expect less and pay more for it. Like I said, make these cars at reasonable prices and people will do the math, see it's a good value, and buy them. The tax subsidy just takes the money from people in a round-about sort of way so they don't notice they are shelling out $40K for a $30K car, because believe me, that money is coming from somewhere.

>Would you rather have had the companies go bankrupt and quit producing and quit buying parts from thousands of supply companies throughout this country?

I don't want GM go bankrupt and I love to see American companies on top, but sadly it is just not the reality as it was 40 years ago. I resent having the government being forced to decide between letting millions of people lose their jobs or throwing good money after bad at a company that has made an astounding amount of bad decisions and crap products in the past 20 years. If any other company did this they would fail, and rightfully so. Unfortunately for us in the USA we are screwed either way

I am glad to see Ford seems to have realized some of their stupidity and are working to correct it under new management, hopefully they will continue to improve in the right areas and make American cars the best cars again.

backy · March 2010

It seems to be about the same size as the Prius--177 inches long. Or, a compact car in length. Like the Prius, and some other compact-sized cars such as Elantra and Sentra, it has mid-sized interior room per the EPA. But as we have seen with cars like the Elantra and Sentra, having mid-sized interior room isn't enough to cross the bar for this discussion.

Also, like the Prius, it's a hatchback--not a sedan.

carstryke · March 2010

and it seats 4 not 5 .....i think

carstryke · March 2010

I agree with the higher price on vehicles like the volt and pruis. If everyone could afford a electric vehicle how big of a impact would it have on the oil and gas industry?? With the governments and GM's approach they can Promote "green" without tanking either industry

As for Hyundai enjoy your resale value :shades:

dave8697 · March 2010

$32,500 after the subsidy is pretty high for a small commuter car. The Volt can save about $130 a month in gas for someone trading from a midsize 4 cyl sedan and who drives 15k miles a year. I don't have the patience to wait 8 years for a payback, but over that time, the Volt price minus gas saved ends up at $20k. That assumes gas stays at $2.75 a gallon for the next 9 years. If gas averages $4.50 a gallon, then the Volt ends up comparing to a new midsize 4 cyl as a $12,000 vehicle after 8 years. What's so bad about that?

tlong · March 2010

Would you rather have had the companies go backrupt and quit producing and quit buying parts from thousands of supply companies throughout this country?

Think of how many more buyers Ford would have if GM had gone under. If the total demand for vehicles remains the same, the sales would shift to other makes. Since even a high proportion of foreign nameplates are assembled in the US, it would not have been as bad as would first appear, and then the strongest companies would have survived and the weakest companies (C and GM) would have failed.

I also believe that in a non-bailed out BK, portions of GM would have been bought and continued, but the bad portions (and the union contracts) would have been liquidated. So it is not at all clear that what has occurred is better in the long run than if we had let the market just run its course.

syitalian25 · March 2010

As for Hyundai enjoy your resale value

Is that the only thing the haters are trying to hold over Hyundai to claim it is still a crappy brand? lol :P

Marketwatch - "FOUNTAIN VALLEY, Calif., Feb 08, 2010 /PRNewswire via COMTEX/ -- Hyundai's completely redesigned 2011 Sonata that delivers best-in-class fuel economy and 200 horsepower is setting the standard for residual values as well. Right out of the box, the Hyundai Sonata GLS with automatic transmission received an impressive 36-month residual value of 54 percent of manufacturer's suggested retail price (MSRP) from Automotive Lease Guide (ALG), the industry benchmark for residual values and a leading provider of data and consulting services to the automotive industry. The residual value topped popular competitive 2010 models from Toyota, Nissan, Ford, and Chevrolet, in addition to premium brands such as Lexus, BMW and Mercedes.

This represents the lowest depreciation in the midsize car segment. The 2011 Sonata even outperforms Honda, depreciating $640 over a three-year period less than a comparably-equipped 2010 model year Accord. Strong residuals add to Sonata's value equation, indicating higher trade-in value for buyers and lower monthly payment for lessees."

To be fair, I read somewhere the Accord was readjusted to 55% so the Sonata is second by 1% (tied with the Altima and above all the others).. I think people are going to get tired of paying $17K for a used Accord with 40000 miles on it anyways.

fushigi · March 2010

Chevy is just raising the price by $7500 from what the car is worth (and that is arguably high as well but we will have to wait to see the full list of feature and specs), then letting the government pick up the tab so they can pocket $7500 per car basically.

Your post comes across as uninformed. GM is not marking up the Volt to make unreasonable profits on the backs of consumers or to bleed the government dry. The Volt at $40K would be a loss-leader for the first few years of production. There has been a huge amount of R&D going into the Volt & the Voltec powertrain. R&D is expensive.

Also, the battery pack alone has an initial cost of $8-10K; if you don't believe me, go look at what the batteries are costing for the Leaf, i-MiEV, Mini-E, and other pure electrics.

Quick exercise: Let's take another car on the same platform like the Cruze and add a battery pack to that. Now add two powerful electric motors (the Volt has two), add the other tech needed for a pure EV to work (every single accessory and feature needs to be electric as there is no belt-driven AC, no siphoning of engine heat to warm the cabin, no belt-driven power steering/braking, etc.), put in a low-power radio that still sounds good, low-power lighting, battery conditioning hardware (heat it when it's cold, cool it when it's hot), and a huge amount of complicated software. It isn't hard to come up with the bandied-about $40K MSRP.

In addition, GM warrants the battery for 150K miles (or so many years ..10 or 15 I don't remember which) and to cover that obligation they initially factored in to the MSRP an entire replacement battery. They have since toned that down as the battery packs are holding up well under their testing.

Expect a post-incentive price of under $30K, although just barely. And don't expect it to be profitable until 2015 at the earliest.

Anyway, as Backy intimated, this is the wrong thread for Volt discussions. I don't mind the thread drift myself, as long as we find our way back to the topic at hand. Which we should probably start doing before our hosts give us a gentle reminder.

syitalian25 · March 2010

I know the R&D part is expensive and I'm fine with the government helping in that area in the interest of becoming less dependent on foreign oil, but giving a subsidy for each vehicle sold is just a manipulation of the free market. Let the government help GM develop cheaper batteries, put those into a decent vehicle that gets 75 mpg, and GM will make a huge profit when it sells millions of electric vehicles. If the batteries and technology is too expensive to replace/put into the car at a viable price point, then the technology isn't where it needs to be yet and they probably shouldn't make it from a business standpoint.

Anyways, we should divert course back to the mid-size topic - anyone know when the new Accord/Camry/Fusion/Malibu/Altima models are coming out to try and compete with the Sonata? Any word on details or spy photos yet?

acdii · March 2010

My bad, I haven't been following the Volt train recently, last I looked, it didn't look like it would make it to market. As far as the Tax incentives go, those tax credits, amount to about $200, and in no way help sell the car. Let's put it this way, if you can't do deductions on your 1040A, or are in the upper tax bracket where deductions wont help you, I think that is the AMT, these tax credits are worthless. When I bought a Prius, I got a $1750 tax credit, it brought my tax refund up about $75, but it did not reduce the price of the car down any bit at all, I still paid what I paid for it, MSRP. If there is a $7500 tax credit for purchasing a Volt, you still pay what the dealer is selling the car for, which most likely will be MSRP, not MSRP - $7500. Frankly I doubt the Volt will sell well, not for what it costs. I would like to see the sales figures on their hybrid models, if you can find them. The Malibu Hybrid, or was it the Impala Hybrid, whichever one they put a battery pack in, could not be found anywhere around by me.

I thought the Volt was to be a midsized car, it isn't? :confuse:

imidazol97 · March 2010

>As for Hyundai enjoy your resale value

I think I'd be careful with that form of putdown after watching toyota-lexus get caught with their pants down on ethics for the last 8 years in re safety of their customers and after watching Odyssey transmissions continue the Honda lack of longevity on transmissions and now the VCM problems in Honda's V6s.

Resale values lag the reality of the auto for years as people who "heard" that certain cars are "better" continue to pay dollars based on long gone reputations in the used market. I certainly view Hyundai differently than I did 3 years ago when I first shopped Sonata. I would buy new or used. My only negative is that there is no dealer especially closeby to shop Hyundai. There is a nearby Kia dealership which used to be another brand's store.

akirby · March 2010

The theory behind the tax credits is that it gives the private companies incentive to enter the hybrid market by virtually guaranteeing sales for the first batch of vehicles. It was also a way to get more consumers into hybrids.

I agree with providing incentives to get mfrs to create and sell hybrids but I also think they could have given the money directly to the mfrs to offset development costs rather than subsidize the cars directly. I don't like artificial market manipulation either.

akirby · March 2010

You're wrong (for once!). Those are tax credits - not tax deductions. Tax credits are deducted from your bottom line tax bill whereas deductions simply reduce your income. AMT was a restriction but I thought I heard they were repealing that restriction and you would be able to use the tax credit even with AMT (but don't quote me on that one).

Please note that this has NOTHING to do with how much you pay or get back when filing because that depends on how much was withheld. For example:

before tax credit
Taxes owed: $5000
Withholding: $5500
You get a $500 refund because you overpaid by $500.

with tax credit
Taxes owed: $5000
minus tax credit of $1750
New Taxes owed: $3250
Withholding: $5500
You get a $2250 refund.

If you ended up paying less than $1750 in taxes then you can't get credit for more than what you paid.

If you treated the tax credit like a deduction then you lost money and need to amend your return.

backy · March 2010

Here's some spy shots and video of the 2011 Elantra. Note the family resemblance to the 2011 Sonata--much swoopier than the current Elantra. Hopefully the rear head room will be decent--that's a bit of a problem on the 2011 Sonata.

http://www.insideline.com/hyundai/elantra/2011/2011-hyundai-elantra-exclusive-sp- y-shots-and-video.html

dave8697 · March 2010

Depreciation hits everything hard. My friend's Accord has depreciated 18k in the last 7 years. I let the first 2 owners of my Riv take 23k of depreciation in the first 7-8 years, and I still lost 7k more in the last 6 years.

thegraduate · March 2010

FWIW, I did get an offer for what I'd asked for my Accord on facebook. $13,750. 2006, EX 4-cyl cloth, never wrecked, 90% new tires. Not bad for a 4 year old car, I thought.

gmcustsvc · March 2010

Hello,
I am from Chevrolet Customer Assistance. I cannot comment on the other vehicles that you are inquiring about. However, the 2011 Malibu starts production in mid-June. It usually takes 6-8 weeks from this date before you will see them at the dealerships. Thank you,
Mariah Chevrolet Cusotmer Assistance

syitalian25 · March 2010

Is it going to be new/redesigned? Where can we find out details?

explorerx4 · March 2010

Hyundai is trying to build market share, so they are pricing their vehicles lower than the competition. You can bet they would like to charge more, but they don't have the volume base to support it.

wayne21 · March 2010

I have been in the market for a new car for about a year and wanted a 6 cyl. I ruled out the accord after driving several of them. I didn't like the constant off/on of the VCM, the hard ride or the road noise.

My first choice was the 2011 sonata and I waited for it - in spite of it being a 4 cyl. It has 200 (or 198) hp. My wife and I (in our early 50s) narrowed it to the sonata and fusion. We test drove the 4 cyl SEL fusion (no 6 cylinders on the lot) and were impressed by the interior of the car, the visibility and handling. But we didn't want the 4 cyl as it lacked in power. We went to the hyundai dealership next. We drove the 2011 sonata limited. Beautiful car! It is definitely a 4 cyl and not a 4 cyl with the power of a 6 cyl. (I'm not interested in a 4 cyl with twin turbos coming out in april.) We were rather disappointed. We thought it was cheaply built, underpowered (albeit we knew it was a 4 cyl) and we found the engine to be loud when pushed. They had some 2010s on the lot and we drove a 6 cyl sonata limited. We found it to be a far superior car to the 2011, but we didn't like the wind noise. We ranked them 1) camry 2) fusion and 3) sonata.

On our way home we reluctantly decided to stop at a toyota dealership. We hadn't even thought about a toyota. We drove a 2010 camry 4 cyl xle. It had the same or better performance of the 2011 sonata and we felt it was a far superior car to the sonata or the fusion. Before trying the 6 cyl camry, we saw a venza on the lot (hadn't even considered anything like that as we wanted a sedan) and test drove it. We thought it was far superior to anything we had driven and was like an upscale camry. For us, this was a no-brainer. We bought a 6 cyl venza. We were not interested in anything other than a sedan and walked away very pleased.

gmcustsvc · March 2010

I don't have that information to give out publicly just yet. We should be able to get that information to you very soon. Thank you,
Mariah Chevrolet Customer Assistance

backy · March 2010

Since you were looking at $30k+ V6 vehicles, you might have checked out the Avalon, Maxima, Azera, Taurus, and even the Genesis 3.8. They would be much more comparable in price to the Venza V6 and you would have probably appreciated their power and luxury. It appears to me you bought the Venza without doing an apples-to-apples comparison of similarly-priced sedans.

csandste · March 2010

You sound like the recent Motor Trend comparo which stated that the new Sonata trailed the last one in some ways and favored the Camry (Sonata third, Fusion second, Camry first out of eight? cars). This sure came as a surprise to me and (apparently) MT as well-- they didn't expect the Camry to win but it did.

I'd rented a new Corolla last summer and thought it was much less pleasant and had far poorer build quality than the last gen. Corolla-- far cheaper than the competition. Apparently the Camry/Venza is cheapened less than the smaller car.

This may have been discussed earlier. Don't get around to this thread as much as I used to since my car (the Optima) has been dropped as a subject header.

Suggestion-- Since the Aura is no more and there's a new gen. Optima about to be launched is there any way to get that back in the mix?

mz6greyghost · March 2010

This may have been discussed earlier. Don't get around to this thread as much as I used to since my car (the Optima) has been dropped as a subject header.

It's still a midsize sedan, right? We can still chat about not only the Optima, but the Legacy, the Kizashi, and even the Avenger/Sebring (on a very slow, I'm-desperate-enough-to-talk-about-ANY-midsize-sedan day

).

Stick around for a while, we're relatively harmless...

And we've been waiting for months for an Aura replacement, but our requests seem to fall on deaf ears...

backy · March 2010

I got my May C/D today and skimmed over the comparo of the Legacy, Accord, and Sonata. I'll read it in depth when I get more time, but the #1 question in my mind is, will C/D back up their direct comparison results by making the Sonata one of their 10Best next year, in place of the Accord, which has been on that list for, what, 758 years in a row? I don't think they have ever put a Korean car on their 10Best list. (MT has put a Korean car as high as runner-up for their COTY.) So that would be a milestone of sorts.

Or I suppose C/D could test the 2011 Optima and actually like it better than the Sonata, and make it a 10Best selection.

syitalian25 · March 2010

The Genesis won M/T Car of the year when it came out, I am anxious to see what C/D has to say about the new Sonata though. If anyone finds it online, post a link

backy · March 2010

No, the Genesis sedan was runner-up for the MT COTY to the Nissan GT-R. You might be thinking of the Genesis being named the North American COTY.

explorerx4 · March 2010

we are all anxiously waiting for the next edition of Crap & Drivel

wayne21 · March 2010

Since you were looking at $30k+ V6 vehicles, you might have checked out the Avalon, Maxima, Azera, Taurus, and even the Genesis 3.8

We actually had looked at these (not the avalon as we had no interest in a toytota product) prior to deciding on a venza. From driving the venza to buying the venza was about one week. We ruled out the nissans because of the CVT - didn't want that; we didn't drive the taurus, but thought it was overpriced and unattractive, and we thought the genesis was nice, but didn't want to spend more than $30k. The 6 cyl venza with premium package, tow packge, rear bumper protector and a few other things was just under $30 OTD using the USAA purchase program. We couldn't approach that in the genesis.

explorerx4 · March 2010

i'm not stranger to looking at one thing buying another, but your decision, which i hope you are happy with, seems kind of random.

wayne21 · March 2010

It wasn't just random. We'd been exploring for about a year before actually buying. We looked at a variety of scenarios and options. When we saw what was available in the sedan market we'd have bought a camry without a doubt - not a fusion or sonata. But for a couple thousand more we got a much nicer vehicle. And yes, that was just what WE wanted to do. Others may not even consider it.

But it looks to me like hyundai focused on an electronics package for youths with a car built around it focusing on "green" or "saving the planet". We're conservative christians and take care of the earth it, but don't worship and we don't talk on the phone or text while driving so those things didn't matter to us. IF the 2011 sonata had a 6 cyl option this year, I genuinely think we may have purchased it and probably not have even gone to the toyota dealer, but who knows. We're happy with our decision and that's what is important to us.

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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