Midsize Sedans 2.0

backy · March 2010

Yep, Suzuki is so proud of its new Kizashi it didn't even have an exhibit at one of the largest auto shows in the nation (Twin Cities). Good way to get the word out on a new design. :P

kdshapiro · March 2010

Well that's not my take on my Lexus vs my Subaru, but to each their own. I will say it bothers me less when the Subaru gets dinged than the Lexus...so for that I love the Subaru more. :shades

acdii · March 2010

Come to think of it, they didn't have one that I saw at the CAS either. Chevy didn't have the Volt either, which is why I thought it wasn't coming any time soon. What I did see at the CAS was a lot of broken and missing parts on a lot of the cars. People sure are careless.

m6user · March 2010

NOW we know why Hyundai isn't offering a V6 in the 2011 Sonata.

I think we knew the reason before(CAFE) but now we know just how well they have addressed it and how good of a decision it was. The HP addicts were crying in their beer. Now they can wipe away those tears.

Hyundai seems to have the knack for quickly addressing the marketplace, decisive and adaptable. Not traits historically attributable to auto manufacturers. Hope they keep improving in quality or at least don't take their eye off the ball and let quality fall. They really are quite interesting to watch.

m6user · March 2010

Kind of funny they come out with a new "Sport" derivitive that is cosmetic only. What, are people already tired of the styles? Maybe they will sell one now. I kind of like it but they need to do something to generate sales and I don't think this is it.

dash5 · March 2010

So, disadvantages in owning a turbo vehicle? Sonata is on my short list along with the Fusion and Altima, and the turbo is intriguing. 275+ horses would be quite nice, but what is the trade off? Louder? More likely to need repairs? Anything?

m6user · March 2010

Are you talking about the Chicago Auto Show? If so, you must have missed them.. Volt was there too.

2010 SUZUKI KIZASHI: On exhibit for the first time at a Chicago Auto Show is Suzukis new flagship vehicle, the 2010 Kizashi (pronounced "Kee-Zah-Shee").

People aren't just careless, some are downright destructive.

mz6greyghost · March 2010

275+ horses would be quite nice, but what is the trade off? Louder? More likely to need repairs? Anything?

Turbos aren't necessarily louder than their naturally aspirated counterparts, although some of the noises will be different (turbo spooling up, blow-off valve, etc.). Reliability is a BIG concern for me at this point, since IIRC Hyundai is relatively new to the turbocharging game, and although I'm sure that Hyundai has done everything possible to make it reliable over the long run, only time and experience can tell whether or not they actually will be.

Gas mileage will also be only solved by time and experience, since in my exposure to turbocharging, in order to really get the advertised power, your foot needs to be in the throttle, and you need to keep the revs up, lowering fuel economy in the process. I'd love to see some real-world mileage figures before signing up for one. And although I don't doubt the 34 MPG that Hyundai advertises, I'm sure the turbos aren't contributing much (if anything) to achieve it.

m6user · March 2010

I share your concern on reliablility but the 10yr/100k powertrain warranty is calming to a degree. I'm pretty tired of a car by that time anyway.

Don't know exactly the methodology that the EPA uses to derive the city/hwy numbers but I assume there's some hard acceleration involved to mimic "real world". From what I've seen since 2008, the EPA numbers are pretty accurate for the normally aspirated engines. Maybe some of the other forums like Saab, VW and Suburu have some insight on turbo real world mpg vs. EPA.

bobad · March 2010

Hyundai is relatively new to the turbocharging game, and although I'm sure that Hyundai has done everything possible to make it reliable over the long run, only time and experience can tell whether or not they actually will be.

I'm sure the turbocharger itself is made by the one of the 3 or 4 turbo manufacturers worldwide. AFAIK, nobody makes their own turbos, but if anyone has the expertise to do so, Hyundai does.

Turbocharged engines may benefit from synthetic oil, IMHO 1 of the only legitimate uses for synthetic.

Extra heat is produced in the exhaust area, so extra shielding and cooling schemes may be used.

I know all this because I have used turbo diesel equipment.

jeffyscott · March 2010

Take a look at the "detailed comparison" tab at: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml

I would seem to me that other than the 8.46 mph/s max acceleration in the high speed test, the EPA test schedule would not appear to cause the turbo to kick in? So as someone else implied, you may only get the mileage advertised and maybe better, if you drive in a way that does not actually require much turbo assist.

I wonder what they do when a car can not accelerate at 8.46 mph per sec, which would imply 0-60 time of 7.1 sec? I suppose they just floor it.

For myself the 175 or so HP from the current crop of I4s would be sufficient, I'd not pay extra for the (to me) excessive HP of a either a V6 or turbo.

thegraduate · March 2010

Downsides to a turbo...

Insurance rates. Compare a natrually aspirated V6 and a turbo-4 and I think you'll find the rates for the turbo to be higher, simply because of the sporty connotations "turbo" has.

syitalian25 · March 2010

If you were looking for more power you should have waited for the 2011 Sonata 2.0T ... 274 HP, 269 ft. lb. torque @ 1800-4500 rpms, 34 mpg highway, all on regular 87 octane. Wow!! I am excited to make this my next new vehicle so I can smoke those yuppies in their Volkswagen GTIs and such haha.

Turbo

http://hyundainews.com/Auto_Show_News/New_York_Auto_Show/2011_Sonata_2.0T/Press_- - Release.asp

Hybrid

http://hyundainews.com/Auto_Show_News/New_York_Auto_Show/2011_Sonata_Hybrid/Pres- - s_Release.asp

m6user · March 2010

I knew you could shed some light on the EPA methods. Thanks. I would think to achieve that 0-60 in 7.1 they would still have to engage the turbo so maybe the ratings would be close. Plus if you drive a normal engine like you would to engage the turbo it would definitely affect mpg as well but probably not quite as much. Little too "engineery" for me to comprehend.

I would possibly opt for the turbo if the cost was maybe $1500 more, but I think it's going to be more like $3k more and that's too much for me.

I was watching the webcast but my DSL connection must be crap as it was really cutting out and I can only hear about 40% of what is said. Prices weren't stated but the CEO did mention that you could get into the turbo for "around 25k".

syitalian25 · March 2010

He said a "well equipped" turbo would be under $25K, who knows what that means but the director of sales just said it will have more road noise similar to the SE. As far as the 0-60, the turbo is going to do WELL better than a measily 7.1 seconds. I do 7.2 in my non-turbo.. I will guess closer to 6 seconds, maybe even high 5's.

m6user · March 2010

I wasn't questioning whether or not the turbo would do 7.1 or a lot better. I was just commenting regarding the EPA test that they would still have to engage the turbo to reach those numbers.

The press release(your links don't work....for me at least) says the turbo will be availalbe in the SE and LTD w/ the the Limited getting these items in addition to the turbo:
Panoramic sunroof
18-inch hyper silver alloy wheels
Dual exhaust system
Steering wheel-mounted paddle shifters

My assumption is that he was talking about the SE for under 25k. I thought he said "about 25k" but you may well be right. Anyway, the current SE w/destination chg. is about $23300. That would mean the turbo would only add maybe $1600-1700 to the price of an SE. Pretty darn competitive if it turns out that way.

shabadoo25 · March 2010

I couldn't find a Suzuki dealership with a map and a compass...not that I have any desire to...

m6user · March 2010

Mazda6 diesel confirmed with hybrid-like 43 MPG

That's a headline from an article on autoblog. That would be sweet. It's supposed to be attached to new 6 speed auto that is similar to a DSG.

The Sky-D will be introduced in the U.S., and the company says it will be used in its next generation midsized diesel car and will get up to 43 mpg. Were not sure what car that would be, as the Mazda3 and Mazda6 have been recently redesigned.

Above was from cars.com. The Mazda6 was redesigned for 2009 so it's possible they could do a major touch up and call it a redesign especially with an all new drivetrain.

dash5 · March 2010

Did they mention if it was basically an SE with a turbo or would it be in a limited package? Interested to see how they work that. Ideal for me would be a limited, with the turbo and the dual exhaust.

Hmmmmmmmm.

jeffyscott · March 2010

Yes, I also assumed that the acceleration rate that was equivalent to 7.1s 0-60, would cause the turbo to kick in. However, EPA only accelerates that fast in the "high speed test" and even for that test it just says that the max acceleration rate is 8.46 mph per sec, so we do not really know how often or for how long they go at that rate.

In the "AC" test cycle, the max acceleration is 5.1 mph per sec, that being equivalent to almost 12 sec for 0-60, means probably no turbo effect there. In the other 3 test cycles, they use a max acceleration rate of 3.2 or 3.3 mph per sec, that'd be about 18-19 sec to get to 60 and there would definitely be no turbo needed to achieve that.

m6user · March 2010

The press release(your links don't work....for me at least) says the turbo will be availalbe in the SE and LTD w/ the the Limited getting these items in addition to the turbo:
Panoramic sunroof
18-inch hyper silver alloy wheels
Dual exhaust system
Steering wheel-mounted paddle shifters

I posted the above about 3 posts back.

m6user · March 2010

Looks a little murky then. I looked up some subu, saab, and vw turbos on fueleconomy.gov but none that I checked had user reported numbers. Probably have to the check the forums and see if can get an idea. For the way I would normally drive the EPA numbers would probably be pretty close anyways.

dash5 · March 2010

Whoops I missed that somehow thank you. Very tempting indeed.

193912940 · March 2010

Nissan Altima or hyundai Azera both fully loaded. Which one should I pick. I want a quiet comfortable ride with all the goodies.

stephen987 · March 2010

If you want quiet and soft, the Azera's a better bet than the Altima. The Sonata's also worth a look, for a bit less money.

wolverinejoe80 · March 2010

what year on Azera? refreshed one right? those looks very nice. mpg got better and it's very very quiet and soft ride. very underrated.

syitalian25 · March 2010

Get a slightly used 2008/2009 Azera. You can pick one up with 35K miles for about 15-16K if you look around, it is an excellent bargain considering everything that comes in that car.

carstryke · April 2010

altima......those cheap korean cars aren't even in the same league as the altima.....just remember "you get what you pay for"

carstryke · April 2010

and you Sonata lovers need to get in and out of your backseat multiple times......if that doesn't knock some sense into you, i don't know what will.

There is a reason i don't wipe my butt with no name toilet paper...and its the same reason i don't buy Korean engineered automobiles.

shabadoo25 · April 2010

I've had passengers in my backseat. They have no problems whatsoever.

As for your insults on Korean cars, check your calendar...it's not 2003 anymore.

syitalian25 · April 2010

The Azera is a way better car than the Altima, especially when it comes to smooth/comfortable ride. The Altima is more sporty, but that's not what the poster was looking for. The Azera has way more room inside, better materials, standard leather, and lots of other features that would option the Altima out to be as much money or more with less features. Azera even has rain sensing wiper blades.

As far as the Sonata, the rear headroom is fine unless you are a giant. And is that the only thing you have to knock about a car starting at $19,000 with 200 HP, best in class fuel economy, standard bluetooth/iPod/ESC, and better styling than any other midsize? As someone else said, it's not the 90's anymore - Hyundai has arrived to the major leagues.

thegraduate · April 2010

The headroom in the back of the Sonata is fine for me, but the legroom in the back of the Altima is not. I'm 6'5".

acdii · April 2010

Surprisingly enough, yes we did. The guys I had with me were looking at all the tiny little cars, like the Mini, and XB, so I am surprised we didn't see the Suzukis. I guess Chevy just didn't have the Volt being displayed too well, because we sure didn't see it's display, and we looked at the Chevys, briefly, the Fords had better styling and a better display.

mickeyrom · April 2010

Getting a good deal does not cheapen what you purchase.I happen to own a 4 year old KIA Optima EX...loaded it listed at around $23K and it has been flawless.Great gas mileage on the highway,comfortable and as tight today as it was on the day we bought it.There is nothing CHEAP about it.

acdii · April 2010

I think the new turbo charged engines being put out by Ford and Hyundai have people thinking back to the old days with huge turbos sitting on top of the engine and the turbo whine heard when flooring it. The new engines have tiny little turbos, the impellers are less than 2" in diameter, the turbos are set low down under the exhaust manifold, are water cooled, and integrated into the engine design, not added to an existing engine. It makes a big difference in knowing that. No longer do you need cool down cycles, turbo lag is nearly non existent, and gas mileage has greatly improved.

I have a Flex with the Ecoboost V6. In normal driving, it drives just like its non turbo model, but when you put the pedal down, it moves like a bat out of hell. So far the MPG is right about where I expected it to be, just slightly better than I got with the 3.8 V6 in the Veracruz. Of course if I lay in the coal that drops considerably, but in normal driving, you don't need to do that. My insurance rate on the Flex is no higher than it would be for the standard Flex. In fact it is lower than that for my Fusion Sport.

I believe reliability in these new engine designs will be much better than had they just added a turbo to a standard engine. It make a big difference if it is part of the initial design, which the Hyundai I4 DI, and the Ford Twin Turbo DI V6. Ford also has an I4 DI Turbo, which should be available soon in some models.

Oh, there is no turbo whine either, if you didn't know it had a turbo, or two, you wouldn't know it had turbos. In fact there is no boost gauge on the dash, and the only thing on the entire car that lets you know it has turbos is the Ecoboost badge on the tailgate.

m6user · April 2010

I wouldn't bother trying to convince someone that had a bad experience with a brand years ago and will continue to bash that brand no matter how much they improve. It's called someone with a closed mind.

People were the same way when Hondas first came to the US. They were(for the first few years) tincan rustbuckets and needed alignment every time you hit an expansion strip. There were people well into the 80s basing them even after they had improved tremendously. There will always be some of those people around. They are easy to spot and it just doesn't pay to attempt an intelligent discussion with them.

m6user · April 2010

The Volt was kind of in the back of the display area :confuse:

They were playing up the Cruse for the second year in a row. How many times is GM going to display this thing up on a pedestal without letting anyone sit in it??? It's been in production in Europe for what, a year? Anticipation like that works better for ketchup!

jeffyscott · April 2010

Interesting information on modern turbos.

The only time I test drove a car with a turbo it was a used ~2000 Jetta with the 1.8T. Would that fall in your "old school" category? To me it was not too bad, but there was some lag.

m6user · April 2010

I just read that the new 2011 Optima, which is supposed to be arriving at dealership in early fall, will have the new Microsoft UVO system. This is very similar to the SYNC system that MS partnered w/ Ford on.

By the way, the new Optima looks great from the limited pics I've seen but the wheels they show on the model are fugly. Anyway, I wonder why Hyundai isn't getting this system at the same time or even sooner. Maybe to create a little more hoopla around the new Optima when it arrives?

Also read that the base engine across all Optimas will be the 200hp version of the 2.4L versus the 198hp version. I know, not a big deal but interesting.

dash5 · April 2010

"They are easy to spot and it just doesn't pay to attempt an intelligent discussion with them. "

Especially when they have names like carstryke, with a y, and give opinions by making analogies to wiping their [non-permissible content removed].

Hyundai has been making steady progress for years. Even if you dont like them it's a good thing for everyone, since they just set the benchmark that much higher for everyone else.

acdii · April 2010

Yep, that is old school for sure. You had to build up pressure from the exhaust before you got any boost, hence the huge lag. The new era engines that have the turbos as part of the design have low pressure turbos that provide boost at low RPM's and a second stage turbo to upper end boost. I am curious how they dual stage the turbo on an I4 when it only has one exhaust manifold.

iluvmysephia1 · April 2010

about the 2011 Suzuki Kizashi Sport. Here are some very impressive random facts that I've learned about the new Suzuki Kizashi.

Check out all of the engineering that goes in to this new Suzuki. There is nothing else like the Kizashi in this category of car on the road today! Why might that be?

Well, let's talk about it. For starters show me another car in the segment that has: aluminum pistons with low tensile force rings, forged connecting rods, forged crankshaft, a timing chain (not a belt), balance shafts, hydraulic valve lifters and coil-over ignition. There are none.

Trust me, the above information means this car will be a great performer and is better engineered than anything in its category and price level. The prices are going to start around 19k, and go up to 25k for a totally loaded version complete with AWD! To get anything even close to this car you will have to spend at least 10k to 20K more than you will with Kizashi.

Suzuki tends to put it's money where you can't see it, unlike other brands that sell a fancy interior on a crusty old driveframe. Multi-link fully independent suspension too, no piddly semi-trailing arms or torsion beams to be found on this car.

Combine all those features with the AWD option and there's plenty to differentiate this car from Honda's, Toyota's, VW's and Subaru's, etc. Great job, Suzuki!

acdii · April 2010

It looks like the only thing that car has going for it is that it is AWD. It is smaller than a Fusion, has only a 4 cylinder engine, and either a MT6 or a CVT. Wait until you actually drive one before getting gung ho on it. I was that way about the Dodge Avenger, it looked and sounded good on the internet, then I saw one up close and walked away.

mickeyrom · April 2010

I don't know about that other stuff,but my 2006.5(2007)KIA Optima with the 2.4 engine does have a timing chain.(Thank the Gods)
But that Suzuki sure is a nice nice looking car.

jeffyscott · April 2010

For me "smaller than a Fusion" is a positive. I do recognize that I am in a tiny minority.

Back in 2007, when the Mazda6 had that feature, it was a point in it's favor for me in deciding between it and the Fusion/Milan.

avucarguy · April 2010

I don't own or drive a Korean car. I own all Japanese cars right now. With that said however, the Korean cars are getting much better. The Sonata is one of the nicer looking family sedan out there. I would not compare the Sonata to an Acura TSX however. The interior of the TSX is nicer(though smaller). Hyundai deserve alot of credit for the current Sonata. I hope Toyota and Honda wakes up and put better materials into the Accord/Camry. Hyundai still have to get pass the stigma of the Hyundai name. Most asian people I know would not buy a Hyundai because of the name. Toyota and Honda is still the brand most asians buy, including myself.

shabadoo25 · April 2010

I test drove the TSX, and it's interior is comparable to the new Sonata. The TSX's instrument cluster is crowded and ugly.

thegraduate · April 2010

The TSX's instrument cluster is crowded and ugly.

They look similar in design to me. What makes one ugly and one not? :confuse:

(I'm having trouble getting my Img links to work, so check them out yourself here on Edmunds).

smarty666 · April 2010

If you think the TSX instrument cluster is crowded then I hate to hear what you think about the Honda Accord's. The TSX had a lot less buttons then the Accord did.

thegraduate · April 2010

I've never seen an instrument cluster with more than one or two; usually just for the trip computer. I think Honda just has the one little "stick" button.

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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