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Comments
I'm not too sure about the way acdii thinks about money, given this statement: haven't lost money, or rolled payments over on any of them, in fact my last two purchases have reduced my monthly payments.
I don't really know what "rolled payments" even means. I think it is unlikely, to say the least, that he traded the cars in for more than he paid, so I am not sure what the claim of "not losing money" actually means. He seems to be one who thinks not in terms of how much something costs, but instead how much it costs per month...so not losing money probably just means the car did not depreciate faster than he paid off the loans.
Edmunds is showing me more like $6000 for a 2005 with 92,500 miles...and that's for selling it yourself. Trade in is even lower, well under $5K.
(BTW 18,500 miles per year is well above average, I think the average driver puts something like 12-13,000 miles on)
If you lease a car, at the end of the lease you turn it in. You pay for the car's depreciation through a lease. Basically this is what I did, just not by leasing the car. Needless to say I just got lucky that the cars all held high resale values so that when I traded in the cars they did not have any negative equity in them. When you trade in a car, any negative equity, that is money in which the car is worth less than what is held by the bank note, is what you either have to pay off upfront, or roll it into the next car loan. So lets say the car you finance is 28K, the trade is worth 22K, you owe 24K, that extra 2K you either need to pay off right then, or add it to the loan of the next car, so you finance a 28K car for 30K. This is where you wind up totally upside down on a car loan, somewhere you don't want to be, and in most cases is where you wind up on a used car loan due to the higher finance charges. In all my trades I was in the equal or positive category, no negative equity on any of them. This is basically where you wind up if you lease a car.
In all the cases except the Prius, The money I paid out went towards depreciation of the car, since I put on a lot of miles, the cars depreciate fast, hence the short turnaround times between cars, if I still drove the Prius, it would be in negative equity territory, where I would owe more on it that its market value. I got rid of it when it still had decent market value, same with the Camry Hybrid and Hyundai Veracruz. The main difference between the way I have been doing it and a true lease, once I hit the mile limit on the leased car, it would have to be parked until the lease ends, or pay a large penalty for excess mileage. I have also been able to negotiate some really good deals on the cars, and I keep my cars in pristine shape, which helps tremendously when it comes time to trade them. The Prius and Veracruz were like new when I traded them, the Camry had some body damage from a storm, and a horse, so I got lucky that I got payoff on it in the trade, which took some heavy negotiations.
That's with the new 3.0L. The 06-09 3.0L was around 221.
i own 3 3.0 duratec v6's. the 04 escape part time 4wd (200 hp)/4 speed trans averages 19.2 mpg. the 07 fusion awd (221 hp)/6 speed trans averages 22 mpg. the 09 escape awd (240 hp)/6 speed trans averages 22 mpg.
I bought a 2000 S-10 new for $9990 plus tax. I traded it in a year and 5300 miles later for 9700. It cost me 290 to own for a year.
If I was making $24 a month in payments, and put nothing down, I would have come out even on the S-10 in your book?
In any case the people saying you're turning over your cars multiple times in the span of a few years I strongly doubt (a euphemism
I was considering getting a used for my next car but I'll probably go new myself hah :P I do plan on keeping it for at least 5 years though.
Oh I do, I get to deduct it from my taxes! Here's the thing, The most I have put down was one months car payment on any of them, financed the rest. The key to this was getting very low financing. On the Fusion, it is 0%, the Flex is 3.9%, so I am not paying out a large portion on finance charges, instead the majority of the payments go towards the principal, keeping the payoff in line with the depreciation. As long as that can be maintained, flipping cars is easy, but when you get into a point where you owe more than the car is worth, then you are in a bad loan, and unless you can dump some cash into the loan, you are stuck with that car until it is paid off, and in my case, that would be a car with at least 175K miles in under 5 years. I average at least 38K a year or more, it adds up quickly. Where I live having a dependable car that handles snow well is a must, and it has to have room for two car seats and two adults. The Fusion has done this to a T!
Anyway, let me know if I have this about right: By this fall, I should be able to see both a Sonata Turbo and the new 2011 Kia Optima, right? I'm assuming the Kia will have a Turbo as well but not by Fall. Anything else interesting in this segment that will be available by that time? Right now the cars that interest me in the midsize sedans are the 2011 Sonata, Altima and the upcoming Kia since it's basically a Sonata in a different body style from what I can gather.
I agree with you, but buying a car with a good resale value helps reduce your loss when it comes time to sell or trade it in for a new vehicle. I also stay with vehicles that will cost
Another possibility for later this year is the next-gen Elantra, which will be like the Kizashi in the sense it will have mid-sized interior room but a compact exterior, and an I4 only (and a hybrid powertrain is rumored). It's been called a "2011" model, but I'd be surprised if it came out for the 2011 MY, i.e. late 2010, since the current Elantra debuted in late 2006 as a 2007 MY, and four years is very short for a generational changeover these days.
Also the 0% is usually not really 0%, as it is typically an alternative to a cash rebate. If I have a choice of a $2000 rebate or 0%, then taking the 0% really means effectively paying $2000 in interest.
That said, with the amount of driving you do, I can certainly understand getting a new car every 3 years or so. I'd take about 15 years to get the miles you put on in 3.
Oh, also isn't there a new and bigger 2011 Jetta coming this summer or fall? Maybe that'll be nearly midsize also.
Also, we have seen a preview of what is in store for the 2011 Jetta in the guise of the 2010 Golf, and the interior of that is only 93 cubic feet--a couple more than the 2010 Jetta, but not enough to get into mid-sized territory. It's possible the Jetta will have a larger interior than the Golf, but it would take a considerable bump to put it into the mid-sized class.
The current Focus is only 3 "cubic feet" short of reaching the 110 that defines midsize class for EPA. Adding a couple inches of width (I understand it is to be wider) could be enough to push it to 110.
EPA "volume" is based on multiplying head room by leg room by shoulder room in front and rear and adding and then adding trunk volume. The current euro Focus is has an inch or two more shoulder room than our version. That increase would be enough to move interior passenger volume to about 96 cf adding a 14 cf trunk would mean 110 cf and thus midsize, according to EPA.
EPA "volume" is based on multiplying head room by leg room by shoulder room in front and rear and adding and then adding trunk volume. The current euro Focus is has an inch or two more shoulder room than our version. That increase would be enough to move interior passenger volume to about 96 cf adding a 14 cf trunk would mean 110 cf and thus midsize, according to EPA.
That's what I don't get...how does Hyundai fit all that space in the Sonata (and the trunk, which is huge) and still get the stellar MPG?
200 horses are under the hood of many a late-model Suburban I see motoring around Birmingham at 80 MPH; I bet its fine - even peppy - for a 3,300 lb sedan.
~200 hp is hardly "underpowered" for all but the most aggressive autobahn speed needs for a midsize sedan.
200 horses are under the hood of many a late-model Suburban I see motoring around Birmingham at 80 MPH; I bet its fine - even peppy - for a 3,300 lb sedan.
Um, why? Last time I checked, only about 5% of Accord sales is the coupe. And I've seen all of ONE Altima coupe on the road in the 2+ years it's been in production. Ask Toyota how well the Solara did for them...
If Hyundai actually wants to produce something worthwhile, how about a wagon? It'd be nice to have a choice of wagons in this class, besides the overpriced TSX and all the poseur "crossovers" (which are themselves overpriced, ugly "tall wagons".)
I try not to look at a wagon. It's so ugly, imo.
It wasn't meant as a negative, it was meant to explain how they can get the kind of FE out of the Sonata. To do so you need an underpowered car. Might as well get used to it though, these are the kinds of cars we will be seeing come 2016 when 35MPG is mandated, good luck finding a V6 powered car.
More power, better fuel economy.
At least with the Ford Fusion, the 4 is getting EPA in the 30's, and that is right about what people are seeing. The V6 is also getting right about what the EPA ratings are, so with any luck, so will Hyundai.
Most of that space is just that .. space. Air doesn't weigh much so making a large cabin does not necessarily carry a huge weight penalty; just the added weight from an extra inch or two of materials for length and maybe height. I've talked to limo drivers and they've said that other than a lengthened drive shaft that the limos have not needed beefed up powertrains to deal with the added size since most of it's empty interior space; there isn't that much added weight.
No V6 cuts weight, which also helps, but comparing to other 4-bangers I'd say the difference is our buddy Al. Aluminum weighs less than steel and I bet if you examined a Sonata from front to back you'd find the use or more aluminum and other lightweight materials. I doubt there's a magic bullet, just judicious trimming of a few ounces here and a pound there that added up to a large-yet-light car.
Look at the tricks they do on race/sports cars like drilling holes in the gas & brake pedals to shave ounces. There's no reason those tricks can't be applied to appliance sedans; it just takes the engineering discipline and manufacturing lines to support it. Prior to CAFE shooting skyward there was nothing to drive the manufacturers to make the attempt.
True for any car. If I dig into the throttle and kick my iVtec 2.4L to high-revs often my MPG drops of rapidly. If you ride the torque down-low though you keep things running more efficiently. My Honda has a modest torque peak (160lb-ft at 4,000 RPM) but it's very flexible. I'd love to see a dyno run of the Honda K24 engine in my '06 Accord.
The cars were Pacific Blue with Gray cloth/leather interior with the hard to find Sunroof/Navigation Pkg and Indigo Blue/Gray without the nav/sunroof pkg.
Exterior: Beautiful, from the color to the 18 inch wheels the Sonata in SE trim in Pacific Blue Pearl looks excellent. I like how the color changes depending on the lighting. We've gotten rain off and on all day in my area (Upstate, SC) so depending on the angle and where the car was parked it looked green sometimes and at other times it looked dark blue. In direct sunlight its a nice dark blue-green. It's my favorite of all the colors for the new Sonata...Harbor Gray is a close second, though I'm eager to see how the Limited Trim will look in Plum and Camel. The 18s on the Sonata really bring out the look and make the car look more proportioned IMO. The 17s on the Limited are OK but smallish, I prefer the design of the 16s available on the GLS models over the Limited wheels honestly. On the website I figured I'd prefer the Indigo Blue Pearl to the Pacific Blue Pearl but in person I think the IBP is too bright of a blue for a car of the Sonata's class. Just not my cup of tea.
Interior: Navigation system is really nice, though I'll admit I've never really played with one. I like the push button start, the gauge cluster is real nice and futuristic and the center stack has a nice design. Some of the interior materials were hard to the touch and felt lower grade than the 2009-2010 model years but overall the interior is on par with the Accord and better than everything else in the class...this includes Fusion, Malibu, Camry, Mazda6 and Altima. Front room was pretty good (I'm only 5 feet 9) and rear seat room was good too, only problem I really had was getting in and out of the back seat. The sharp cutlines in the design of the roof can make ingress and egress a challenge for folks taller than myself. The Cloth seats inside the model I drove were "gray" and I wasn't particularly crazy about them but they weren't bad. The fabric felt a bit coarse though. I really wish the "Camel" interior was available on SE models because I prefer the Camel to any other interior color (especially WINE)
The Drive: I drove the IBP one first but it had a minor steering issue. Upon take off out of the dealership the car had this lumpy-thumpy feel to the steering. I told the salesmen about it and we took it back to the dealership. He could feel it himself. I'm thinking the tires were overinflated or something. I wanted to drive the Pacific Blue one first but the sales manager couldn't find the keys so we took the IBP one out instead. By the time we got back to the dealership the salesmen finally got the keys to the PBP one and I took it out for a spin. No steering/lumping problems with this model and the power was impressive. Really good take off in traffic, really good pick up power on the interstate and it felt more powerful than my 05 Altima. I'd driven a Silver Limited a month or two ago and the power of all three seemed to be comparable. I didn't expect a difference in power but I did notice that the SE model has sharper and firmer steering, which I really liked. The Limited Model I drove felt more Camryish that I had liked. I also felt a bit of torque steer in the SE model that I had not noticed in the Limited. The test drive was done on some patched up roads in the area and the Sonata handled them nicely. It definitely rides, handles and has better power than the 09-10 Sonata I4, which I felt was underpowered and sloppy handling-wise. The Sonata SE feels more Honda Accord than Toyota Camry this go round.
The Price:I've noticed Hyundai's steady increase in pricing over the last couple of years but I was a bit shocked at first when I saw the Price of the PB Sonata SE with the Sunroof/Nav. But when you look at the long list of standard and optional equipment on the car it didn't seem so bad. Navigation, push button start, iPod Cable, leather/cloth seats, power sunroof, 18 inch alloy wheels. I priced out similar competition. Malibu, Accord, Camry and Altima all come within a few Hundred bucks give or take for similar equipment (though none of them can be had with the Sonata SE's Navigation System or 18 inch wheels) I guess I'd just become accustomed to the Sonata undercutting them in price. Salesmen tried to get me to buy, but I'm holding out until the Turbo model (and the Kia Optima) are available...unless my jalopy 05 Altima falls apart (and it probably will.) Overall I came away impressed by the car, I got to spend a lot of time in various models while at Atlanta and NYC's autoshows and the car is really impressive for the class. From the power, feature content to the looks. It's a really nice car and if not for me wanting the Turbo model, I would have haggled on the price of the SE.
The Price of a Sonata SE with Nav/Sunroof pkg is comparable to the Price of a Sonata Limited without Nav. Too bad you can't get a Sonata SE with Sunroof and without Navigation. I noticed some GLS models have the Limited's 17 inch wheels. Hyundai is offering a "Spring Event Upgrade" pkg on GLS models with the PEP pkg that gives you the wheels, mats and I think the ipod cable for a whopping $100 MSRP! Not bad.Funny how just six years ago when I got my 05 Altima I would have never considered a Hyundai, now the new Sonata is at the top of my list and I won't even consider the current Altima. Honda, Nissan and Toyota need keep an eye on the new Sonata, it really shows how complacent all three manufacturers have become (especially Honda)
Too bad you can't get a Sonata SE with Sunroof and without Navigation.
IMO, this is the dumbest move that Hyundai pulled. Why should I be saddled with a softly-sprung Limited in order to get a sunroof without a $$$$-wasting Nav system?
Thanks.