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Midsize Sedans 2.0



  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    $25k for Accord EX-V6s with Navigation, overpriced?

    I guess we're all allowed an opinion!
  • w9cww9cw Posts: 888
    The Duratec's actual design, and preproduction versions, were done by Porsche. Porsche sold the design to Ford. I would like to know the background of "why" Porsche sold the design. My daughter has a 2000 Mercury Sable LS Premium with the 3.0L Duratec, and it's not as smooth as one would expect, and much noisier than any Japanese or Korean OHC V6.
  • madurbsmadurbs Posts: 19
    I'll start by stating for the record: I like this discussion, respect all posters, and love all cars. Well, at least 1/3 is true. I like this discussion.
    My dollar vote, all things considered, is for the midsize from Marysville Ohio. The design has been around since 03 which may be outdated to some, but certainly is still competitive in 07. I can't wait to see what the 08 will add to this competitive market. Bottom line: many good choices, but for my buck, Marysville won.
    I apologize in advance for having offended or challenged anybody with this post.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,601
    Scape, you can't even go by the newspaper ads, most of them have enough small print to fill a phone book. They're designed to attract attention and maybe catch unsavy buyers.

    You have to check an internet price or do a personal quote to find out the real street price.

    My recent expeiences say that internet pricing is the way to go. Forget MSRP or dealership ads, find out what the car really costs.
  • Once again PERCEPTION. Someone in the last sedan room posted 0-60 numbers and 45 - 60 numbers for the 4cyl Fusion vs Camry vs Accord and the numbers showed different. The 4cyl Fusion if I remember was .1 second slower 0 - 60 .. Perception.

    Searching through the last sedan room, I didn't find the post you mentioned, that had numbers showing a Fusion 4-cylinder was .1 second slower 0-60 than an Accord 4-cyl.

    I did find a post that referenced these numbers from Consumer Reports:

    Honda Accord sedan - I4 2.4L (166 hp) 5A + ABS 7.91 16.22 90.80
    Honda Accord sedan EX - V6 3.0L (244 hp) 5A + ABS 7.80 15.88 93.70

    Ford Fusion SEL V6 - 3.0L DOHC (221 hp) 6A + ABS 7.47 15.78 92.30
    Ford Fusion SEL - I4 2.3L (160 hp) 5A + ABS 9.36 17.27 82.50

    Anyways, not that the actual numbers matter all that much, you keep keying in on PERCEPTION... Well, since I dove a couple of Fusions before I bought my Accord, and I perceived that A) they were much slower, and B) flooring the cars was not fun, as the engines were rough and harsh... I felt that was significant.

    It's not so much the age of the Duratec 30 that is an issue. It is that harshness at high RPMs has been a criticism for many years and Ford hasn't found a way to fix that. Why can't Ford make a V6 for a midsizer that has a high RPM and is smooth and refined such that it makes you want to open it up?
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    I got about $1,600 off sticker. I hear of much larger discounts. Could be why I got a pretty good trade-in for my PT Cruiser. I would expect somewhere around $1,600 to possibly as much as $2,000 or more off on the SEV6, which is a great pkg. There are claims of $4,000 or more off, but it is hard to believe. I was pleased to see over $1,000 off on a Honda, as discounts are tight compared to other cars. Resale on Honda Accords is outstanding. At least here in California, they are as good as gold. At around $22,000 say for discounted Accord SEV6, I think it is a very good deal.

    So you got a Sonata SE, I assume V6, for $16,651 ??? Sounds like those desperate days of deep discounting which GM did some time ago. Is Hyundai in trouble? I did see some $5K off on Mazda6, but the sticker price would only reduce to around $22k, as they all seemed loaded.
  • I have a Ford Focus ST with the 2.3 5-speed. That extra power makes me grin every time I drive it. It is so much fun in a relatively inexpensive car. It is transformational power. The 2.0 liter Focus doesn't feel like the same car. I love cars, but none of my bigger or more expensive cars have ever given me so much bang for the buck in driving enjoyment.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Accord V6, with automatic, 0-60 6.6 seconds, with sweet Honda engine singing all the way. The Aura XR 3.6 V6 DOHC is also a fine sounding and revving engine.
    :shades: Loren
  • madurbsmadurbs Posts: 19
    Wish the XR were available when I bought my 01 LW300 (which is long gone and I took a bath). What a difference!! Still happy with my midsize from Marysville.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Does the " L " chose from 2 or 3 lower gear selections? The Fusion automatic may work just fine for most all occasions.

    A stick can be fun, but not around town. I prefer a stick on a sports car, preferably RWD. For FWD, from now on, I will stick with automatics. My Accord has the D3 selection for gears, and that seems to work for those times in town you wish for only three gear shifts, or on the twisty roads when you do not want a taller gear, or changes going on as much during corners. It has some sort of grade logic to the automatic too, which helps. I will wait for a sports car, with RWD, to get back into clutching again. Never owned a car with Tiptronic, so I have no idea how good or bad it would be, other than to say, I would likely miss the clutch and stick fun.
    :shades: Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Are you talking net-net price, as in to buy and trade-in value? If so, they are likely to be about even, or more costly for the Fusion and Sonata. And are they the same car. Will they both look as good and drive as good five years down the road? Does the Fusion come with Stability Control?

    It is hard to put a finger on the actual price. You could use Intellichoice website, which I used for the price when I went to the Honda dealership. My guess is that Sonata may deep discount the most, though Ford has to be pretty desperate by now, and may match Hyundai. But then again, not all the same features.
  • oldcemoldcem Posts: 309
    Ford has Duratec derivatives that do exactly that - wind to 6500 with gas turbine smoothness, have big fat torque curves, and make you want to do it again and again. They're the 2.5/3.0 liter engines used by Jaguar. These are beefed internally, have VVT, solid lifters, triple stage mainfolding, and are high compression. They make enough suds to get a heavy AWD X Type automatic to 60 in 7.1 seconds and give it a top speed of 150 MPH (in Europe). US versions are electronically limited to 121 top end.

  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Ford has Duratec derivatives that do exactly that - wind to 6500 with gas turbine smoothness, have big fat torque curves, and make you want to do it again and again.

    Do these engines (or derivatives) make the Fusion engine better?
    Not in the least. :confuse:
  • meateatermeateater Posts: 123
    Accord V6, with automatic, 0-60 6.6 seconds, with sweet Honda engine singing all the way.

    Its tough to beat a Honda engine. Add in all the ergonomics and tactile Honda feel with a huge dose of reliability and its tough to beat even a 5-6 year old designed Accord.

    All the other cars in this class have redone their versions recently (maybe not the Mazda) and Honda can still outdo them. When the 08 Accord arrives Honda will, once again, set a new standard that all others will be compared to.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    GM is finally starting to weed out all their multiple pushrod V6s, the new 3.6 a reasonable engine in the Aura (and the next Malibu), why not Ford?

    Mr. Captain2 - Is the 24v V6 DOHC w/VVT in the Fusion/Mazda6 a "pushrod" engine?
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    3.0L Duratec, and it's not as smooth as one would expect, and much noisier than any Japanese or Korean OHC V6.
    My point exactly, and not a reason to 'bash' Ford (or Mazda) products, more to point out that those particular cars could be improved so much with some heart transplants. Maybe the new DT 3.5 will help with the problem, but I'm not sure that it will acutally find its way under Fusion hoods. Putting the engine in a lower volume high priced Lincoln is one thing, getting it into the Fusion/Milan/6 may be more than Ford can handle from a production capacity standpoint.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I didn't say it was, the GM comment meant to point out that they have started to get rid of many of those old 50s vintage pushrods in favor of that new 3.6 which is all those things you seem to value. Keep in mind that the Honda V6, is still SOHC, and is unarguably vastly superior (in terms of HP and refinement) than the DT3.0. IT IS NOT all about the number of valves or cams you have, VVT etc - there is more to it than that, it's called refinement.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 21,603

    Exactly what are the things that cause refinement? What parts in the motor have to be there?

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Its a balanced, rotating assembly. They all make some noise. What is a big difference is the amount of research that goes into insulating the driver from these vibrations.
    Even the older Hondas have very advanced, active engine mounts designed to dampen the vibration of the engine and mute sounds from the engine compartment (of course these fail over time and are somewhat costly to replace).
    Additionally, the exhaust note can be engineered as well. Cars like the Miata had extensive research put into optimizing the exhaust note.
    I don't understand why Ford doesn't sweat the details a little more with respect to NVH and all of these complaints will go away. Improved motor mounts and some additional insulation should solve the problem.
    Its funny though, I don't mind some mechanical noise. I think that is one of the reasons I like the Subaru so much. I feel part of the driving experience as opposed to isolated from it.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    keeping this on topic, and comparing my wife's Altima VQ 3.5 then to the DT in the Fusion or any other Ford so saddled and disregarding the HP/torque differences. The Altima will rev freely and quickly right up to redline so much so that you almost have to be careful not to bounce off the rev limiter - the Fusion/6, well, you end up just kinda gritting your teeth as the engine strains to meet your demands, the engine is much louder and feels strained. I'm relatively sure it is a function of engine design and balance and engineering expertise, is probably going to need overhead cams, and some sort of method to keep an engine operating at peak efficiences in the higher rev ranges - otherwise known as VVTi (Honda/Nissan/GM 3.6/Hyundai) different than just VVT or CVVTi (Toyota). In essence, the DT has the basic ingredients, but somehow the cake was burned coming out of the oven. I think it is a shame that when Ford, in this case, was making money hand over fist back in the late 90's, that they didn't spend any of it on developing a competitive V6.
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