Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Midsize Sedans 2.0

1…2930323435…544

Comments

  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Well, spread the correct information. Stop the madness and share the link to the 7.3 second time with us please.

    The first review I came to put the Five Hundred at 8.6 seconds. Found here. The next one garnered 7.9 seconds to 60 MPH:

    On the mechanical side, the aging 3.0-liter V-6 is good enough for fleet sales, but it'll never be a source of joy — 0 to 60 takes 7.9 seconds, just a squeak ahead of the last-place Kia, accompanied by a thrashing racket in the upper rev ranges. A six-speed gearbox is a theoretical advancement, but this one makes rough and poorly timed shifts when you hustle.

    - found here
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    And more Ford bashing...
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    And the Ford bashing goes on and on and on.. Boy, if I were doing this to Honda/Toyota I would get a nasty little note!

    but you can! Honda has its roots in Indy Cars! That makes my car an Indy Car, right?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Everything he posted was his opinion of his experience, or fact, best I could tell. That doesn't equal bashing anymore than you and I posting our experiences with various cars.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "Ford has earned that emotion.
    How?

    If you actually would read.. Ford relaibility is very good across the board per JD powers and Consumer reports. Also, take a look at MSN reliability data and compare an 04 Focus to an 04 Civic.. Surprise!@. Media, has been telling you for far too long that everything Ford/GM is garbage and you bit into it.. :surprise:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Why is this not in the media conversation, where people are looking for it?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Backy is someone who didn't get a Honda and bought a Hyundai (IIRC) because it offered a better value to him.

    In truth, the reason I didn't even consider Honda the last time I bought a new car was not because they did not offer a good value. It was because they didn't offer a car, period (of the type I was looking for at the time). I've owned Hondas, loved them, and would buy a Honda in a second if it offered me what I was looking for, at the right price. (e.g. if they ever decide to make a Fit with a more adjustable driving position...)
  • csandstecsandste Member Posts: 1,866
    Haven't read the other posts, so excuse me if I duplicate.

    Think it's time for a new 6, the old one is getting a bit baroque. Mazda has one of the worst brand loyalties. Probably because the 3 is a better car than the 6. When they're ready to move up they move to a similar, more expensive car with the same traits in an upscale marque.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    oh come on now, by your own jaundiced view, the DT3.0 must have been just the right engine for the 500. It was so 'right' in fact that Ford, needed to discontinue it after a whole 3 model years, put a razor blade grin on it, add 60 apparently smoother and quieter HP, and give it a new name. If it wasn't the engine than what killed the car? Must be the lack of razor blades, because otherwise I thought the car was a quite well designed. Kinda like the Fusion, both cars well conceived AND in need of heart transplants.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    So, basically, you found something to suit your needs, right? You didn't buy the brand, which was the point I was making. Sorry I got it a little misconstrued, we haven't chatted in a bit! :)
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Please grad, read Captans posts.. will ya!@ it is very obvious he hates Ford and will make up stories and misinformation. And you back him %100.. Any change you or captain or Accordman get a chance you bash away at the blue oval.. and its ok. If I say something to contradict.. its game on!@ ;)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I bash Ford? Link me to the bashing, please.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    And the 2.0 Zetec.. This engine has proven to be bullit proof!@ too.. yet, lets bash away at something we know nothing about :sick:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    130-145 hp from 2.0 Liters doesn't ring my bell. Reliable is a bonus, but it doesn't make a great engine (if it made that power and got 40 MPG, I might change my tune though :))

    Reliability is only one aspect of a good engine, scape.

    I'll be waiting on my link to the bashing.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "And pay taxes on what they earn"

    Lower pay, lower taxes earned.. :surprise:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I'll talk to you more about this on the news and views forums if you like.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I'm still waiting on that link to the Ford bashing. Or, were you just lying about me for sport? It makes no difference to me, I know how I truly feel about Ford. I nearly purchased one.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Oh, I'm chillin..
    You don't know how long I have been here at Edmunds and how much "misinformation" I have seen. Most of it comes from the Honda/Toyota brethren on top of that.

    " If one can't see the reason to pay the premium for Accord/Camry/Altima then one shouldn't. By all means go get the less expensive midsizer like Fusion and Sonata. Since in this case he/she would just be paying more for absolutely nothing. However, for those who can justify why the premium is worth it (like me) then there is also nothing wrong to opt for the more expensive camcords. At the end of the day...

    Ya see.. you say "less expensive" Some in this room read this as "cheaper" or "cheap". Thus these sedans are viewed as less than a "premium sedan". That the Fusion/Milan/Sonata or whichever will in no=way last as long as an Accord/Camry or even an Altima!@ Been down this road before my friend with my Ranger in the Tacoma vs Ranger room. Ranger went over 110,000 miles with no issues.. and again in the Escape room vs CRV.. Escape went 75,000 miles with no issues.. I look at this differently. Toyota/Honda used to offer great value in the 70's and 80's. They have lost that edge..
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    That the Fusion/Milan/Sonata or whichever will in no=way last as long as an Accord/Camry or even an Altima!

    Where's this posted other than by you? And why are Honda owners all classified as the same egotistical bigots by you (judging by your account of how we talk)?
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/2005-to-2006-ford-five-hundred-1.htm

    "an AWD did 0-60 in 7.5 seconds"..

    Here is one..
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Reliability is only one aspect of a good engine

    Reliability only means that the car works when you want it to. It doesn't mean its that good of a design. A weak design (like the engine in the 500) may run and run, but who wants it to when you discover how woefully underpowered it is?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    THANK YOU. It lends MUCH more credibility to an argument when there is a source. Maybe that's why it is a requirement to cite your sources when writing anything of value that is scholastic in nature.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I think I'll come back when this forum is all about midsize sedans again. Good night everyone. :)
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    source: Consumer Reports an article entitled 'what is an American car - 2 Toyota models (the Camry and Avalon) have significantly more than the Mustang's 60% American made parts content. Read it and weep, or dismiss it as some Ford 'bashing' on CRs part, if you wish. I couldn't bring myself to believe it at first either - that bastion of Americana the Mustang of all things.I believe if you research this a little though you will find a good piece of that offending 40% is under the hoods..
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116

    It would bode well for Ford to put the 2.5 in the Fusion/Milan and have at least 175HP mated to a 6speed auto/manual box. I don't see this happening, if at all until 09 model upgrade.

    Not auto/manual...a real manual with a foot operated clutch pedal and something that sticks up between the seats where you manually select the gear desired.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    scape, this is from your own post

    It would bode well for Ford to put the 2.5 in the Fusion/Milan and have at least 175HP mated to a 6speed auto/manual box. I don't see this happening, if at all until 09 model upgrade.

    You have also said that the Fusion should have the 3.5L engine, instead of the 3.0L. If they do use the 2.5 and the 3.5 liter engines in 09 it will be a generation too late. Why were these engines not used to begin with? Other sedans in this segment have been using higher powered engines for years now. The Fusion is a generation behind. Buying a current generation Fusion is like buying the last generation of most other midsize sedans. The Fusion is still 4 to 5 years behind the competition, IMO.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    my problem with this is the same HP/lb. (1:20) ratio that would yield (let's be kind) - non-competitive acceleration capabilities, keeping in mind that some of these better engines today can and do deliver both power and economy. Taking 3 steps back like this and going back even further to an early 90s engine, is not going to help FE and would kill power of course - buyers these days want BOTH. Hell, the Altima 4 banger will hit that 175HP and leave that old Contour 100 miles behind before the first gas stop. Technology, I believe, is the answer to better more efficient engines, not simply reducing their size.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    The Fusion is still 4 to 5 years behind the competition, IMO.

    The transmission is way behind too. What a huge oversight. Even the base Kia Optima has a Sportmatic shifter. The top of the line Fusion doesn't. Just D or L.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The Accord doesn't have a manumatic either. I've never longed for one, I just use the D3, 2, or 1 when I have ever needed to lower the gears manually.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    So, I guess since the Accord doesn't offer AWD or a six speed automatic its also now behind the Fusion/Milan??? :confuse:
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "Taking 3 steps back like this and going back even further to an early 90s engine, is not going to help FE and would kill power of course - buyers these days want BOTH. Hell, the Altima 4 banger will hit that 175HP and leave that old Contour 100 miles behind before the first gas stop. Technology, I believe, is the answer to better more efficient engines, not simply reducing their size.

    Are you so sure about leaving that "old Contour 100 miles behind?? Contour 5spd 4cyl gets 33MPG..NEW Nissan 4cyl 35MPG. (I know, the Nissan has 45 more HP, but c'mon.. its a 10 year old car). Also, the V6 Contour 5spd got 170HP and 30MPG..Highway.. it also had a 12 gallon tank. ya know, this is dumb... :blush:
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2003-03-11-cr-picks_x.htm

    I'm sure I'll hear the Honda crowd scream over this one. I know I don't own a Hyundia, but I never said I never would. I say Kudos to Hyundia and all the Hyundia owners. Once this starts to spread and get out.. I bet Hyundia sales will take a nice climb... :surprise:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Scape2 said: "I am just one consumer who saw past all the CR"

    We can't have it both ways, scape.

    You were right though, as a Honda owner, I did love the article. It stated that the Honda Accord was the "Top Pick" in its category. So, what do we believe? Hyundai is equal to Honda and Honda Accord is the Top Pick?

    Sounds reasonable to me, since the Accord was my Top Pick too, and Hyundai has been known to be improving for several years now.

    I guess you'll ignore this post too though, just like the ones asking you to point out my bashing of Ford. Oh well.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Who in this forum would consider a diesel version of their current car, if the price difference was less than $1,500 and the fuel economy jumped by 30 % or more? More torque and less top end power.

    Anyone?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Why are you quoting an article from 2003? It isn't relevant in 2007.

    The great thing about these forums is that one can debate the pros and cons of these cars. At the end of the day, I buy the car I feel most comfortable with. In my book Honda and Toyota lead the segment lead the segment overall. Ford has a lot of catching up to do. In the late 80s/early 90s a family sedan=Ford, not any more. I think Ford offers real value, but a few bucks more one gets into a better class of car.
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    Good topic. I for one would certainly consider a diesel Accord. Judging by the recent Edmunds report posted earlier, a diesel will be available in the next generation Accord, and I can't wait to test drive it. I also think a full comparison test (price, driving experience, real-world MPG, etc.) between the upcoming Accord diesel and the Camry or Altima hybrids (both Prius technology) will make a great read. I passed on the Hybrid Camry mainly because of the price premium (among other reasons).
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Who in this forum would consider a diesel version of their current car, if the price difference was less than $1,500 and the fuel economy jumped by 30 % or more? More torque and less top end power.

    SIGN ME UP :) :shades:
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    I think Ford offers real value, but a few bucks more one gets into a better class of car.

    Exactly. I'll add Hyundai to that statement.

    Plus if scape bothered to check, sales of Hyundai in 2007 are way off. The Sonata sold about 10,000 units last month. Good car, but 10,000 units? That's hardly a movement.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    beng one of those consumers that somehow doesn't 'see thru all the CR' - it is somewhat interesting to note that Sonata reliability ratings have fallen off in those 4 years since that article. Understandable, IMO in that it was a totally new car in 05. The Fusion been around less time, the jury must be regarded as 'still out', but it may hold its rather lofty position from a reliability standpoint in that in most respects it was not a truly new car at introduction. There are some advantages to using old engines/trannies and established chassis designs etc.. Ford would be doing a lot better if it could approach Hyundai's current product line.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    I like the idea, but I'd have to reserve final judgement until I had a chance to drive it and have at least a couple years to see how it holds up. I tend not to be an early adopter since unanticipated issues often come up even though Honda has done a pretty good job with their new products in the recent past. But I think a diesel would suit my current commute well(short, in city driving). On the other hand, I don't think my criteria for choosing a car would change; a 20% increase in fuel mileage would only save me $6 a week at the most. So that means it would take me 4 years to recoup the extra expense, assuming diesel costs 20% less per gallon. Since I probably will keep my car for 6+ years, it may make sense to go this route if driving dynamics and reliability are still good. But those are big "if's" and wouldn't buy into it until there was some good data showing it holds up.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    Grad

    " If one can't see the reason to pay the premium for Accord/Camry/Altima then one shouldn't. By all means go get the less expensive midsizer like Fusion and Sonata. Since in this case he/she would just be paying more for absolutely nothing. However, for those who can justify why the premium is worth it (like me) then there is also nothing wrong to opt for the more expensive camcords. At the end of the day...

    Scape2

    Ya see.. you say "less expensive" Some in this room read this as "cheaper" or "cheap". Thus these sedans are viewed as less than a "premium sedan".

    I have avoided this till now, but could not contain myself any longer.

    Let me get this straight.

    One person says one of the main advantages of the Fusion is its lower price, and that people are wasting money on a more expensive vehicle.

    This same person then uses an example of the Fusion being less expensive as an instance of Ford Bashing.

    :confuse: :confuse: :confuse: :confuse:

    So is being less expensive a good thing or a bad thing, or does it just depend?

    I (like many Accord buyers) also looked at the Fusion. The main reason we choose the Accord was that the back seat was quite a bit roomier, the fuel mileage was better, and the safety was better. If Ford had a magic bullet - like a station wagon, or a diesel engine, then things might have been different. No animosity towards Ford.
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    RE: Fusion being less expensive...

    While browsing at one of our neighborhood Ford motherships this weekend, I noticed that quite a few Fusions on the lot did not have ABS, which is a $600 option from Ford.

    I can't imagine anyone would NOT want ABS on their midsize sedan. And if Ford was looking for ways to make sure the published "base" prices would be less than the competition, I don't know that leaving ABS as optional was a good choice. It certainly doesn't help their safety image IMO.

    At least they added some structural reinforcements starting Jan 2007 to help try and get the frontal crash test results in line with the competition... but without ABS, Fusion drivers are more likely to experience a frontal crash than the competition.

    $600... that is 1/3 of the price difference between a Fusion S and my Accord LX right there (the Accord has standard ABS).
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    That is another reason I prefer the Milan over the Fusion--ABS is standard, and I think a power driver's seat also. And it doesn't have the Gilette grille and passe clear taillamps. :) I've seen Milans (no options) advertised in my town for around $15k. Very good deal IMO.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Some people really don't want ABS given a choice. For 08 ABS will be standard on all Fusions so it will be a moot point anyway.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I can't imagine anyone would NOT want ABS on their midsize sedan. And if Ford was looking for ways to make sure the published "base" prices would be less than the competition, I don't know that leaving ABS as optional was a good choice. It certainly doesn't help their safety image IMO.

    I concur, this was one of the reasons I didn't see a lot of value in the new Altima. The base model is very close to 20k which is a lot of $$$ to not have some basic safety features.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    "years to come because production capacity is increasing slowly. " Wrong.. Hermi plant is at capacity..


    Scape, read the posts before making comments please. My statement you quoted was clearly referring to Duratec35 production. That motor is not mfd at Hermosillo.

    Good grief. :sick:

    I said the "fatal flaw" was that they didn't market the car right not the engine's power.

    Good griefe X 2. :sick: :sick:
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    that bastion of Americana the Mustang of all things.I believe if you research this a little though you will find a good piece of that offending 40% is under the hoods..


    Did they specify the engine? The V6 in the Mustang, Ranger, and Explorer are build in Cologne, Germany and have been for years. The V8 is built in two places, one of them being Windsor, Ontario Canada and the other is Romeo Michigan. IIRC the Windsor goes in the trucks and the Romeo goes in the Mustang. The parts content sticker was removed from my GT so I don't know if it differed from the numbers you posted.

    IIRC the Fusion's U.S. parts content is very low too.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    Having read this forum for several months now, I just don't get all of emphasis on 0-60 times. Why is it so important? Do we have a bunch of teenage drag racers on this forum or what?

    Our 2007 3.0-liter V6 SEL AWD Fusion may not be a rocket but it certainly does have adequate pickup and passing ability. The fact that FoMoCo's 3.0 V6 is not as "fast" as a Honda V6, or a Toyota V6, or a Nissan V6, means nothing to me. Does that make me an old fuddy duddy?

    In real life, just how important (unimportant?) are 0-60 times? I just don't believe it is that big of a deal. The 3.0 may not be as sophisticated (new?) as some of the other power plants in the mid-size segment but it is certainly not an antiquated mil by any means. I mean, gee whiz, GM is still using push rod V8 engines.

    The other thing that bugs me is how some Camcord owners have this holier than thou attitude. Sure, Accords and Camrys are good cars but so are the Fusions and Sonatas. I see the mid-size sedan category as being the most competitive one in the marketplace today, with there being very little difference between the makes and models. Am I naive? Is there one car that is head and shoulders above the competition?

    OK, the Camry and Accord sell the most, by a large margin. Is it because they are clearly superior or is it because they are perceived to be? McDonald's sells more hamburgers than anyone else. Are they the best hamburgers, all being approximately the same price?

    We truly enjoy our $27,105 MSRP Fusion. The fit and finish on ours is perfect in every way. We see no room for improvement in that department.

    We really admire the styling and the handling is superb. We're amazed that more people are not buying the Fusion. I guess it just takes a while for the word to get out.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Having read this forum for several months now, I just don't get all of emphasis on 0-60 times. Why is it so important? Do we have a bunch of teenage drag racers on this forum or what?


    My biggest complaint with all of this has always been seen in the ratios (which I've seen around here but don't know exactly how to link to them) of who buys what. According to what I've seen the vast majority of Camrys and Accords sold are equipped with an I4 and an ATX. The majority, although not quite as vast as that of the CamCord's, of Fusions sold are equipped with a V6 (ATX is the only option there). Don't know what it is for the Sonata.

    Knowing this I can't see how the size or power numbers of the V6 options in the CamCords sell the cars. I understand that their I4s are superior in pretty much every way to those of the Fusion and Sonata and have no argument as to why people buy them in insane numbers. So why put the Fusion down for its V6 when in all reality it is selling better than the other V6 options? The odds are in favor of the Fusion at the stoplight going by the numbers.

    I see the Fusion as a good compromise if you don't want an I4 and also don't want to pay the premium the models with the larger V6 options. The Fusion is never going to sell as well as the Camry or Accord without a better I4 but it's hard to argue that it doesn't offer a lot of value in it's current form. If things continue to pick up at Ford then you may see a more competitive Fusion in the future which would also entail another plant to mfr them which I don't believe could even be possible right now.

    Now that I think about it, putting a Grand Slam mid-sized sedan out there would have actually been a mistake for Ford at this point IMO. If the Fusion were a GS and since they could only build, say, half of what shoppers demanded in the Hermosillo plant, then the shoppers in this class wouldn't wait for one but rather go elsewhere because the other options are so strong too. I know that sounds crazy but if you think about it... ;)
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    dudleyr, I have an '05 Sonata and find nothing offensive with the words "less expensive." In fact, I'm quite happy with the car and its features (Special Value GLS) and tell people how relatively inexpensive it is. It was certainly less expensive than a comparably equipped Camry or Accord.

    I view that as a "plus." Afterall, people shop between dealers for the same make & model. Why,...because they are hoping to find a deal that is "less expensive."

    My Sonata hasn't required a single trip to the dealer for anything to be corrected or fixed. I opted to go a dealer for three oil changes, but they could have just as easily been done at the nearby gas station.

    I have been so impressed with the '05 Sonata after 2 years and close to 15,000 miles, that we bought an '07 Sonata SE as our second company car a little over three months ago.

    We could have paid a lot more for a lot less car.
Sign In or Register to comment.

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles