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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    edited April 2011
    We often discuss the pros and cons of buying a new car which has more safety equipment but that factor is not usually a significant reason for buying a new car. Just heard on the today show this morning that in 1972 there were 54000 traffic fatalities and in 2010 there were 33000 while in the meantime the population has increased over 100 million people. Considering the growing problem of distracted driving and these numbers become even more significant.

    Obviously, there are many factors other than just vehicle safety enhancements that drive(pun intended I guess) these numbers such as better roads, driver trainin, enforcment of seat belt and DWI laws, speed limits, medical advancements etc. etc. However, I believe by far the biggest impact item has been the actual changes to cars themselves.

    Consider this when deciding whether to replace that 10 year old car or not just based on cost or MPG alone and also when complaining that cars have gotten too heavy. All that safety equipment adds up but is worth the extra protection IMO.
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    We own two cars.A 2006.5 KIA Optima and a 2007 Prius.I love car shopping,but I am retired and have fixed income which means I have bought my last new car.Fortunately both of our cars have the latest safety features,but I almost drool when I look at the new cars which I will never own.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Excellent point. Safety is something high on my list when shopping for a car. Fortunately, it's much easier now to find even a 3-4 year old mid-sized sedan with what I consider to be key safety features: six airbags, ABS/ESC, and good crash protection. And (I think) all of the current crop have at least those attributes. Some do a little better than others in crash protection, but I don't know of any mid-sized sedans that are poor there.

    My oldest son found a 2006 S40 he wanted badly to buy, to replace a 2000 626. The 626 has only two airbags and no ABS. The Volvo has all the safety gear. One of the reasons he said he really liked the Volvo was its reputation for safety. I thought that was pretty sensible coming from a 22-year-old guy. Unfortunately, he couldn't get a good loan rate on the Volvo so he passed on it.
  • catt66catt66 Member Posts: 1
    I was in a local VW dealer talking about the new Passat and they told me that the $20k starting price will not be the case. They told me that there will be the usual Trendline, Comfortline and Highline models and they should start around $27k and go up to approx. $38k loaded. So I asked where is the savings.....they told me that we would be getting so much more than the old Passat's for this price. All the reviews I have read or watched keep talking about the slightly cheaper interior to help reduce cost...I hope they dont reduce quality and still charge the usual premium!!!
    AND WHERE IS THE WAGON???? Figures cancelled in NA just as I was about to buy my first VW.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,441
    the 20K model does exist, at least on paper, and you will see an occasional one so they can advertise the price and low leases. Then upsell you at the dealer.

    I believe it has the doggish 2.5l engine from the Jetta and Golf, certainly an inferior engine for this class now.

    I am just surprised they don't have the 2.0t in the mid level models. Huge mistake going straight to the V6. especially with gas prices now!

    oh, they are using the US definition of "more". More room (bigger), but lower quality.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • samm43samm43 Member Posts: 195
    I am having trouble believing you used the word doggish and VW's 2.5 in the same sentence, with what was an obvious straight hand (face). In a Passat or not.

    How quickly the years desensitize us. :P

    Sam
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,441
    I did not mean just based on performance numbers. Just relative to the competition, and really, that is all that matters.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • samm43samm43 Member Posts: 195
    edited April 2011
    I was not talking strictly performance either. Have you driven one? That 5 cylinder engine feels smoother and more refined than any 4 mass-produced 4 cylinder that I can think of. It has torque that is greater and at lower revs than many V8's had only a decade ago. The actual numbers of the 2.5 belie its real world drivability (and efficiency). It may still have a cast iron block, but is a proven block that is sturdy and has enjoyed good longevity. It has a timing chain, variable timing and intake track among other modern technologies that it certainly does not deserve the term 'doggish' labeled upon it. If you don't like VW, fine, but I think you should reconsider the competence of that engine on more criteria than just chasing Korean or Japanese aluminum blocks around.

    Sam
  • chrisa222chrisa222 Member Posts: 17
    Samm are you serious? That 2.5 IS a dog...and thats in a Jetta. Put it in the heavier Passat? Terrible. Truly terrible and VW is crazy by discontinuing their best engine in that car (the 2.0T).

    See, I was all set to purchase a 2010 Jetta 2.5 6MT. All that had to be done was the test drive..but from the specs, that wouldn't be a problem, right? WRONG! The test drive had be driving back to the dealership asking them if they had any Jettas with the 2.0T (they didn't) or if they could give me a good deal on a GTI (they wouldn't on a 4 door, just a 2 door).

    Then I went and test drove my car, a 2007 Accord 2.4 5MT. It had low miles and a great price. I said "No way..I just drove a 170HP Jetta and it was a dog, I don't want a 166HP Accord". Well..it was a night and day difference. The Accord with its "mass produced 4 cylinder" was much more fun to drive. It had much more get up and go, off the line, on the highway, whatever. It sounded a lot better, gets much better gas milage, etc. I was sold on Honda and I bought that car.

    Specs don't tell the whole story. The heavier Honda with less power and cylinders is a quicker car with better gas milage and is more refined. VW has the 2.0T but refuses to put it in their Passat and will pay the price.
  • samm43samm43 Member Posts: 195
    Well I can only deduce then that both you and stickguy have not driven the same 2.5 that I did. I wonder if emission devices adversely affect the performance depending on what part of the country you are in? I'm northeast. That is the only explanation I can think of for such differing experiences with the same engine.

    FWIW I am not a HP watcher so much as I look for torque output and the rev range that peak or close to peak is available. Torque is what you feel in the seat of your pants. HP is what triggers desire in the brain when you read comparison charts.

    Glad to hear you both are so happy with your Accords. They are a great car, especially the older ones.

    Sam
  • chrisa222chrisa222 Member Posts: 17
    Samm...Im in CT...
  • dash5dash5 Member Posts: 421
    edited April 2011
    2013 Malibu

    Looks great! First the Sonata, then the Optima and now this car. I am glad to see this segment is starting to revive a bit and produce some really sharp looking cars.

    I'll just post the links to the images, they're on the large side.

    http://i54.tinypic.com/2e6dg1w.jpg

    http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2011/04/2013-chevrolet-malibu-ltz-- - 010teaser2-1.jpg

    http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2011/04/malibu-infotainment.jpg

    http://media.il.edmunds-media.com/chevrolet/malibu/2013/ns/2013_chevrolet_malibu- - _tlight_ns_33111_717.jpg
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited April 2011
    What I found most interesting about the new Malibu is that Chevy is taking Hyundai's/Kia's/Suzuki's lead and dropping the V6 from their mid-sized car. I think that will happen more and more as the automakers work to meet the upcoming fuel economy regs. VW did the reverse, taking away the 2.0T from the Passat in favor of a V6. I wouldn't be surprised to see that change down the road.
  • dash5dash5 Member Posts: 421
    It will be interesting to see how that plays out. I recently bought the Optima Turbo and I'm more than pleased with it. I'm assuming the technology has matured to a point where it's a great option now for all the car makers. Especially with the premium on the MPG stat and the fuel regs you mentioned.

    Then again, I can also see companies differentiating their product with an exceptionally good V6 once the turbos become more commonplace.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    edited April 2011
    I'd have to say it looks good....not great. Always thought the Malibu was too narrow and long looking and a little cramped on the shoulder room. Hated the old tail lights, hate the new ones too. Should have left them in the Camaro parts bin and designed something specific for the Malibu. Rest of car looks good. More aggresive stance, little bit of the coke bottle look of the Maxima which I like. All in all a good improvement but if rear looked better I would agree that it looks great.
  • dash5dash5 Member Posts: 421
    I'll have to see it in person. I've heard reports that it's quite impressive inside and out from people who have sat in one at the car show. I kind of like the tail lights but overall the back could use improvement. Front is nice and clean, masculine looking, all of which I like.

    In any case it's certainly improved over the outgoing model which to my eye is only mediocre.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I'd agree that the new Malibu looks really good except for:

    - new taillights
    - Gold chevy badge on the front (heck, even Chrysler has the cool wings badge. Is the bow tie the best they can do?)
  • oyemeoyeme Member Posts: 1
    For what it is worth, in March I drove a new Hyundai Elantra with only 200 miles on it as a rental in AZ. Since we bought and own a new 2009 Malibu LTZ with approximately 19K miles on it; I think I can make a fair comparison between these two autos. There is no, I repeat for emphasis; no comparison between the two vehicles and the Malibu is far superior. The Elantra is very anemic was constantly downshifting to maintain highway speeds when going up any hills. The interior felt cramped compared to the Malibu and the ride was much busier and noisy in comparison. From our experience, I don't think you will go wrong with the Malibu and in the LTZ form is one elegant looking auto that has always gotten positive comments from those that see it. We have had ZERO issues of any kind with our 2009 Malibu. Buy one and you will see for yourself. I hope this helps.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    A closer comparo would be the Sonata Limited to the Malibu LTZ. The Elantra is a compact car, probably the base GLS trim as a rental, price ~$18k; the Malibu LTZ is a fully-loaded mid-sized car that starts at $27k MSRP for the I4... or about $9,000 more than that Elantra you drove. The Malibu had better be far superior!
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Actually, the Elantra GLS is $15K in base trim.

    The Malibu is $12K more expensive.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    A rental will most likely be an automatic GLS, which is close to $18k w/o options. I haven't seen a stick rental for a long, long time... it was one of those Korean Chevys from 20 years ago.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    You're sort of correct ;)

    17.5K, but that's normal market pricing, and fleets and major customers can always knock off at least $500 from that. If you get year-end deals, you can drop it to 16K quite easily.

    Would you settle for $17K? :P It's still $10K less than the Malibu, so as you said, it had better be a much better car.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    MSRP for the Elantra A/T, no options, is $17,945 including destination (which EVERYONE pays, even Hertz). Close enough to $18k for you? :P

    Who knows exactly what a given fleet manager will pay for a car? Who knows what the OP paid for the Malibu LTZ? I'll bet it wasn't $27k. That's why I stuck to MSRPs. YMMV.

    Anyway, last time I checked it's April, not year-end. ;)
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    MSRP for the Elantra A/T, no options, is $17,945 including destination (which EVERYONE pays, even Hertz). Close enough to $18k for you?

    Oh, I highly doubt Hertz pays MSRP for those. There are fleet programs under which rental companies purchase cars directly from the factory. Rental companies buy in bulk, they do receive discounts or they would not buy them when you they can buy a Ford, Chevy or Chrysler for THOUSANDS less.

    Hertz and Enterprise are selling their rental Sonata's for about $18,000-$19,000 for the base GLS models with 20,000 miles on them. Whatta joke.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Where's the joke? :confuse:
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    No joke there. Surprise!!! Hyundais have unusually high values. I traded a 2008 Veracruz for a 2010 flex and I got in trade what I owed on the loan. IOW depreciation was not very high. I owed roughly 24k on it, and that's what they gave me. The MSRP on it was 36K, I had it 2 years, 19k miles, and got 24k back. 6K depreciation per year is not a joke, not bad at all.

    OK the above makes sense to me, but im on pain killers, so if it doesn't, sowwy.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I think the point was that people like to say "I can get a car for X" but then turn around and compare that price to the MSRP of another car. Whenever someone does that I feel it hurts their credibility greatly.

    Thanks for informing us that rental companies don't pay MSRP. What a revelation! ;)

    The rental used prices are no bigger joke than typical used car prices on dealers lots all over the country. They are just inflated asking prices. You're in the business, you know where the money is being made. Give $10k for a trade, price it at 16k on the used lot and then sell it for it $13-$14k. Lot nicer margin than new car sales.
  • cannon3cannon3 Member Posts: 296
    Wow! looks really good in my opinion. I would like to see the entire rear end however. The square LED tail lights look interesting and different.
    I see 4cyl engines in mid-size sedans becoming a norm for the future. v6's are going to fade away. MPG and performance are going to be key in this market segment for the future. Ford with its eco-tech 4cyl engines are going to be found in many vehicles in the next 3 years.
    Are you sure you didn't compare a Cruze LTZ to an Elantra? I sat in both at the last auto show and I have to say the Cruze LTZ had far better fit/finish than the Elantra GLS. Styling for the Cruze LTZ was also better in my opinion.
  • luckysevenluckyseven Member Posts: 134
    "Hyundais have unusually high values" - $6K a year depreciation tells otherwise. I have 2008 Highlander with 30K miles that I bought for $26K+tax back in 2007. Just checked kbb

    BLUE BOOK® TRADE-IN VALUE
    2008 Toyota Highlander Sport Utility 4D
    Condition Value
    Excellent $23,600
    Good $22,400

    depreciation is under $600 a year! I have no plans to part with mine yet.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    edited April 2011
    No joke there. Surprise!!! Hyundais have unusually high values.

    When one can buy a new one with an MSRP of $21,145 (including destination) and there are good deals to be had on the Sonatas now. Enterprise selling a year old Sonata GLS with 20,000 miles on it wholesale for $18,000-$19,000 is a joke.

    As a dealer, say I do pay $19,000 for this car. With 20K, the tires will need to be replaced (as all rental cars have worn out tires), there will be reconditioning costs (no rental car is without signs of abuse). So, after I invest $1,000-$1,500 in the car, what can I expect to sell it for? My true cost on the car is over $20,000. You can get a new one for that, or less! So, yes, it is a joke.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    BLUE BOOK® TRADE-IN VALUE
    2008 Toyota Highlander Sport Utility 4D
    Condition Value
    Excellent $23,600
    Good $22,400

    depreciation is under $600 a year! I have no plans to part with mine yet.


    KBB is very misleading. Toyota's do hold their value very well, however all cars, even Toyota's take a 20% hit in the first year alone.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Enterprise selling a year old Sonata GLS with 20,000 miles on it wholesale for $18,000-$19,000 is a joke.

    It's only a joke if they actually don't sell the car for anything close to $18-19k. But if they can get that price for it... that's good news for people buying a new Sonata today. For years, critics of Hyundai have talked about low resale values. Now that sale prices, and resale values, have come up, that's a problem too for some folks.

    Prices of used cars in general have shot up the past couple of years, as the number of good used cars has dwindled (due to lower new car sales) and families with tight budgets look to stretch their car-buying dollars by buying used. So a 1-year-old Sonata for $18-19k asking price doesn't surprise me. I recently did an online search for used 2011 Sonatas within 500 miles of me, and the cheapest was $16.4k and that was for a stripped GLS with 30k miles--360 miles away. The cheapest with less than 20k miles was $17k. Many were much more than that. The used car market has changed. And Sonatas are better cars than they used to be and command higher prices than they used to bring.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    It's only a joke if they actually don't sell the car for anything close to $18-19k. But if they can get that price for it... that's good news for people buying a new Sonata today

    It is good news for Enterprise, if they can actually get that price. Remember, they are selling wholesale, not retail. If a dealer was selling one for $18,000-$19,000 retail, that means there is mark-up in the car for profit. If a dealer buys an abused Sonata from Enterprise wholesale, the dealer is stupid because the dealer would have to ask what a new one goes for. That is why it's a joke.

    A customer trying to trade a Sonata GLS to a dealer as ask $18,000-$19,000 for a trade value would get laughed at. It's the same thing.

    I know used car prices have shot up. I buy cars for my dealership and prices are outrageous. It's a great time for auctions and wholesalers to sell cars used cars and a bad time for consumers to buy them considering the great deals and zero percent being offered on many new cars.
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    BLUE BOOK® TRADE-IN VALUE
    2008 Toyota Highlander Sport Utility 4D
    Condition Value
    Excellent $23,600
    Good $22,400


    That's all? Is that trade or retail? What was the new selling price? Last time I looked at Highlanders, they were selling around $38-44K, $2k more than a loaded Hyundai Veracruz. I just looked up the paperwork when I bought the Flex. I got $25,850 in trade on the Veracruz, I paid $36k for it with the tax.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    In our area 2010 Accord costs $19K too at Hertz car sales. It is retail price and Hertz has no haggle price, so it is final price. I would buy used Honda over Hyundai any day whatever hype surrounds Hyundai today. I think price is not realistic. I would rather buy new car. I considered once to buy used former rental car and all of them had visible problems, even Camries. We bought new Camry instead on sale for LESS than former rental.
  • luckysevenluckyseven Member Posts: 134
    edited April 2011
    BLUE BOOK® TRADE-IN VALUE
    2008 Toyota Highlander Sport Utility 4D
    Condition Value
    Excellent $23,600
    Good $22,400

    That's all? Is that trade or retail? What was the new selling price? Last time I looked at Highlanders, they were selling around $38-44K, $2k more than a loaded Hyundai Veracruz. I just looked up the paperwork when I bought the Flex. I got $25,850 in trade on the Veracruz, I paid $36k for it with the tax.


    So you lost $10K in 2 years on Veracruz. My Base model AWD Highlander was $26K + tax in June of 2007, I stated that in my original post. I think KBBs $23600 is too low for this car, it should be at list $23700.... :mad:
  • luckysevenluckyseven Member Posts: 134
    edited April 2011
    It's only a joke if they actually don't sell the car for anything close to $18-19k. But if they can get that price for it... that's good news for people buying a new Sonata today

    I don't know what idiot would buy a used car for a price of the new one but for the seller it never hurts to ask high. I just checked my local auto trader listing and 2010 GLS asking price is $15,563.

    sales ad

    2011 GLS is $16,998

    2011 Sonata

    I found these ads after 10 sec of searching, I'm sure there are better deals on used Sonatas out there. Also these just dealer asking price, I'm sure there is a lot of room for negotiation there.

    The truth is Hyundai still doesn't have high resale value even though their cars are much nicer then they used to be.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    For those who constantly claim that Detroit three is the largest provider of rental cars there is a wake-up call - consider what Hertz sells (and Accord's pricing at same time):

    http://www.hertzcarsales.com/Search?Distance=100mi&PostalCode=94546&pageSize=10&- pageNumber=1&#!&Makes=Honda&Distance=100mi&PostalCode=94546&pageNumber=1&pageSiz- e=10&Models=Accord&Years=2010

    858 Nissans
    798 Toyotas
    214 Mazdas
    55 Mersedes
    54 VWs
    23 Infinities
    22 Kias
    19 Chevys
    16 Hondas
    15 Mercurys
    8 GMC
    6 BMWs
    2 Fords

    Note that Hertz does not buy any Chryslers or Dodges. Absolute majority of Hertz fleet are Nissan and Toyota - two largest Japanese companies - and Mazda (which does not sale at retail anyway). Also note large presence of Mercedes. Number of Detroit iron is simply negligible.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Since it was possible to buy a new 2010 Sonata GLS for under $15k (I know because I shopped them back then) and these 2010s can be 2+ years old (introduced in early 2009), $15,563 is pretty low depreciation IMO.

    I did find eight 2011 GLSes for under $17k within 500 miles of me. Price range is $16,744-$16,997. Best deal is a stripped one with only 8,000 miles for $16,995, but it's 330 miles away. All the others are also stripped (based on photos that show plastic wheel covers) and range from 20k to 33k miles. Since these stripped GLSes listed for just over $20k when new and were likely purchased at some discount, that's around $2,000 depreciation on these cars. So about 6-10 cents per mile depreciation in the first year, which is the worst year for depreciation on new cars. And these are the lowest priced in a 500 mile radius.

    And you think that is bad?
  • samm43samm43 Member Posts: 195
    Regarding the used vs new Sonata, another consideration if you are paying top dollar for a used one vs a new one, is that for anyone who puts much emphasis on the OEM extended powertrain warranty, it only applies to the first owner with Hyundai's.

    Sam
  • luckysevenluckyseven Member Posts: 134
    It really puzzles me why would anyone buy a used car for a price of a new one. It would only make sense for people with bad credit who can't get approved on a new car loan.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Why the private party ads are so low is simply because while it's always best to buy from a private party if you can (real paperwork, you can see the person's living style/other cars, etc), the dealers will only offer then *auction prices* for their trade-in currently.

    When the dealer is only offering them $13K(no joke) on that 2010 GLS, they'll gladly settle for low Blue Book.

    Fact: if you work for a dealership and pay a penny over auction prices for a trade-in that's not exotic or rare, you'll get your butt fired immediately. They don't even pay close to low Blue Book for most of their their cars now.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    That puzzles me too. But you can't get a new 2011 Sonata for anywhere near $17k today, and even $18k is unlikely. Those huge discounts are just not there any more, not on base Sonatas anyway. Could probably get a few thou off a loaded one. Some of the higher-priced used cars including Sonatas I see are Certified, with either a 10-year transferable powertrain warranty or even 10-year bumper-to-bumper. So sometimes the used cars have better warranties than the new ones!
  • luckysevenluckyseven Member Posts: 134
    Just looked in Today's Cleveland paper and 2011 Sonata GLS advertized for $17988, I think it's been selling at this price for a while now. There should be some negotiation room included included in that price.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    edited May 2011
    Just because a dealer has an ad for a cheap price doesn't mean he has that car when you go to buy it. They are notorious for "we only had one, it was a stick and it's already gone". There used to be a Toyota dealer in the west suburbs of Chicago that did that all the time but I think the state stepped in because they don't do it anymore.

    I look at all the Chicago ads and the lowest prices shown for '11 Sonatas with auto trans are well over $19k. Altimas and Camrys have been consistently priced at about $1k lower. There may be some wiggle room on both. Honda dealers around here pretty much just show lease dollars so don't know what the price of the car is. I think your $17988 is probably for a stick model and, like I said, may be available once you get there. Some dealers don't include the shipping charge(stupid, I know) so you may have to add $800 or so to that price anyway.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Was there the "only during a total eclipse of the sun" clause in the ad? ;) Some dealers love to add conditions to prices in ads that only a few buyers can meet. For example, some local Ford dealers have been running ads for awhile with super-low prices on Fusions, as little as $16-17k. Then you read the fine print and see the prices include "lease loyalty" and other special discounts/rebates that only some buyers qualify for. Many dealers advertise prices with the military rebates included. This is in MN, mind you--not many folks in the military here.
  • luckysevenluckyseven Member Posts: 134
    Didn't see any limitation on the ad. If someone gets bored call them to confirm availability, this is large dealership group with 2 Hyundai locations here 877-857-7947 or 800 910-8045
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I guess this goes back to your question of why people would pay more for a used car than a new one. This same dealership, Ganley, is advertising several used 2011 Sonata GLSes, stripped (plastic wheel covers), for $19,500. Yet they offer new ones for $17,995. Hard to figure why anyone would buy those used cars.

    http://autos.cleveland.com/used_cars/style/all/hyundai_sonata_2011
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    savetheland-

    Here are the YTD fleet sales vs total sales through March 2011

    Ranking is based on % of sales:

    1. Ford 167,780 fleet/495,508 total = 33%
    2. Chrysler 90,074 fleet/286,950 total = 31%
    3. GM 140,165 fleet/592,546 total = 23%
    4. Nissan 56,366 fleet/285,358 total = 20%
    5. Toyota 53,748 fleet/433,924 total = 12%

    Care to retract your statement?
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,147
    Call me a skeptic if you will, but I wouldn't believe any phone confirmation that those vehicles are available. Of course they will be available when you call. But I've seen too many stories in our dealership ratings & reviews of people who call minutes before heading to the dealership to confirm availability, and when they get there, the car has evaporated - it's either "just been sold," or "the person you talked to must have been mistaken," or some other excuse, but I know I wouldn't count on any confirmation that wasn't done with my own eyes.

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