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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I don't have a hard time accepting anything. All I said was the new Fusion should be even better than the current one and should put Ford back in the lead as far as MPG goes. You're the one that started doing comparisons and got all bent out of shape about it. I don't care either way and I don't have anything against the Camry hybrid. I'm just excited about the new technology.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Using that logic the next version Camry should leapfrog the Ford, and so it goes.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Yes, and it's called "improving the breed". This goes beyond hybrids, and even the cars themselves.

    Who benefits? We the consumers do!

    They can "leapfrog" themselves all they want. It's the buyers than benefit in the end.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Looks to me like Toyota will be playing catchup for the next several years. Guess we'll find out in 2012.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Well Fords playing catchup now, so I guess it will be Toyota's turn.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    All I said was the new Fusion should be even better than the current one and should put Ford back in the lead as far as MPG goes

    No, that is not all you said. You said "which would be amazing considering how far ahead it already is." You didn't explain how the currrent Fusion is so far ahead already(which it isn't) and just went on about the rumors you've heard about the future Fusion Hybrid. It appeared that you were failing to recognise the advances in mpg and the lower pricing of the Camry and still thought the current Fusion was ahead. That prompted my comment. I"m sorry if I offended you, it wasn't meant to.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Let's just wait until the 2013 Fusion arrives and we can revisit the issue.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Just announced that the new Passat has won Motor Trend Car of the Year. Clean and simple design won out. Congrats to VW.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    The thunderbird also won car of the year.... :shades
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Hindsight is always 20-20. :D
  • godeacsgodeacs Member Posts: 481
    Now let's see VW's reliability get up to speed!
  • fushigifushigi Member Posts: 1,459
    OK, I'll bite. What's amazing about it? My take is that while the grill & front end are improvements over the outgoing design, the side is just as boring as ever and the rear is ho-hum.

    Toyota's "booth babes" can't even wear snazzy outfits (style, not sexiness) as they'd outshine the product.
    2017 Infiniti QX60 (me), 2012 Hyundai Elantra (wife)
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    Nothing to see here... that was run-of-the-mill spam.

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  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I know C/D liked the V6 Passat, but that is so... "old-fashioned" these days where more automakers are going the I4 route. And the diesel is interesting for this class. But the mainstream offering that most people will buy with the 170 hp I5 is outclassed in power and FE by almost every other mid-sizer out there, and the styling is so... Impala-ish...

    Sorry, I dozed off there.

    I think it's a sign that the 2012 crop of cars that qualify for MT's criteria isn't too remarkable. And they couldn't do something like make the new Camry COTY because they did that a few years ago and they like to move the award around, from what I've seen.
  • fushigifushigi Member Posts: 1,459
    I had figured as much based on the wording but thought it might be interesting to see what comments it stirred up. :)
    2017 Infiniti QX60 (me), 2012 Hyundai Elantra (wife)
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    edited November 2011
    I think it's a sign that the 2012 crop of cars that qualify for MT's criteria isn't too remarkable. And they couldn't do something like make the new Camry COTY because they did that a few years ago and they like to move the award around, from what I've seen.

    Or, it could mean that, just like the Civic, critics were looking at getting more out of the redesign of the Camry than what was delivered. It seems to me that, according to M/T, VW made the extra effort to make their car a world-class midsize sedan, something that Toyota and Honda just can't seem to do anymore.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Most likely it means that VW had a better marketing plan for the award than anyone else (which means they were willing to spend more money advertising the award which provides free advertising for Motor Trend).

    According to Pete DeLorenzo (autoextremist.com) that is how it works. And he interacted with MT while working for GM.

    Why else would the mfr be REQUIRED to submit a marketing plan before the winner is selected?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited November 2011
    What specifically is "world-class" about the new Passat? The only thing I see as unique in this class, in the USA, is availability of a diesel. They have the worst standard powertrain in the class. Styling is... pedestrian (I am being kind). Interior is maybe the nicest feature of the car, but not above the new Camry, Optima, or Sonata IMO. It has a nice smooth ride... but so do other cars in this class. It's roomy in back.. but so are some other mid-sizers. Nothing technologically stands out--the diesel is old hat for VW.

    Yes... what is "world class" about the new Passat?
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I don't disagree that the new Passat is not world class...then again which midsize family sedan could be labeled that right now. You don't like the new styling but that is just an opinion. Many, including myself, think the new Passat is very good looking in a clean and classic, sort of Audilike way that will stand the test of time. It's styled much like the new Jetta which is selling very good and I don't believe it's just because of the lower entry price but is due in part to the styling. The 5cyl does 22/31 mpg which is competitive with several of the current midsize cars like the Altima, Mazda6 and Fusion and has good torque so it's not a bad drivetrain it's just older. If you've sat in all the cars you mentioned the Passat still has the nicest interior. It wasn't cheapened like the Jetta was. I just sat in a new Camry and while the interior has been greatly improved it still isn't as luxurious as the Passat's. The Sonata and Optima interiors may look nice but the quality of the materials is not quite as good IMO.

    Personally, I think the Mazda3 Skyactive would have been a better choice for COTY but I don't think it met the deadlines.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Mazda3 Skyactiv has a new powertrain and some little tweaks. That's it. The 2012 Focus OTOH is an all-new design compared to 2011 and could easily claim to have set The Benchmark for the compact class. Much more of a "significant" vehicle in these times when buyers are gravitating to smaller, more fuel efficient cars. And MT claims that their COTY rewards the "most significant" car. There's even the new electric Focus for 2012.

    Passat was one of the few new models for 2012 in the mid-sized class. All it had to beat there was the Camry. But not the most significant car overall for 2012 IMO. I'd even pick the Impreza over the Passat--AWD plus fuel efficiency for the first time. That's more significant than a nice mid-sized sedan with styling cues from Audi... and a ten-year-old Chevy. And a nice interior and a smooth ride, but an anemic base powertrain. Nice package. But COTY?
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Agree on the Focus. Actually just skipped my mind(guess I've been reading too much about the Skyactive stuff) but you're right it would have made a lot more sense.
  • cannon3cannon3 Member Posts: 296
    For me Hybrids are just too expensive to warrant the return. Hybrids are on average $3-$5,000 more than a normally aspirated vehicle. That will buy you a whole lot of gas over the lifetime of the vehicle. Plus, many automakers are pushing these 4cyl engines to reach 40MPG in smaller cars. Another for me is the lifetime of these batteries. What is the cost, both economic and ecological to replace them? I just don't feel it is a smart money choice to buy a Hybrid.
  • cannon3cannon3 Member Posts: 296
    Did a quick check.
    The Fusion Hybrid invoice is $26,370 41/36MPG
    Camry invoice $25,208. 43/39MPG
    You must look at the options to compare apples to apples. So, there is about a $1,000 advantage to the Camry along with a 2-3MPG advantage.
    Now, for yourself. Compare a 4cyl Camry/Fusion in automatic for MPG/cost.
  • samm43samm43 Member Posts: 195
    edited November 2011
    While I don't disagree with your reasoning (not at ALL actually) some, rationalize the price of (potentially..depending on a person's balance of logic vs conviction) their pacification that purchasers of hybrids gleam when pulling up in front of their local golf club or child's school in their quest to be considered 'green'.
    In those same families, you are liable to also find a big block powered gas SUV idling to retain cabin heat or A/C in front of the local convenience store.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    their pacification that purchasers of hybrids gleam when pulling up in front of their local golf club or child's school in their quest to be considered 'green'.

    You must live in a really different kind of neighborhood than I do. I've never seen anybody driving a hybrid that looked like they were "gleaming" or that appeared to be on a "quest to be considered green". I've got a couple of neighbors down the street that drive Priuses and they seem to be just everyday normal people that are trying to save a buck and really just get a car for transportation only.

    Where does this hate crap come from anyway? Does dislike of hybrids by some people automatically extend to the people that drive them for no good reason? It just seems strange.
  • cannon3cannon3 Member Posts: 296
    I too know a handful of people that own Hybrids. A few have told me their resoning for forking out the extra $3-4,000 is for environmental reasons/pollution reduction reasons. However, when confronted about cost of battery on the environment and battery replacement they don't really have an answer. Battery replacement is still a bit question for me. How will it be recycled? Will it be recycled? How much to replace? Warranty? How many technicians have replaced one? Will there be problems?
    Hybrids need to come down in price, at least within $1,000 dollars for me to even think about buying one.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    My questions also, good points. Spewing less pollutants but throwing the batteries into a landfill....
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    We recycle all kinds of other batteries. I get paid for old car batteries or sump pump batteries. What would make you think that a large hybrid battery would just get thrown in a landfill? C'mon man.

    Priuses have around for 10 years and I haven't read of any large number of failures or replacements. I think most of the hybrid manufacturers have pretty good warranties on the batteries. I'm not ready for a hybrid personally but it isn't because of the tech....it's because of the drive.
  • fushigifushigi Member Posts: 1,459
    http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=22229 is an article from July about Ford's reliability on the batteries & electric motors in their hybrids. Quotes:

    its hybrid fleet having racked up 80 million miles in heavy-duty use

    "Out of the 42,629,318 battery cells in use – which are the size of a household D-cell battery -- only five cells have failed. That huge number of cells was used to make 190,000 individual battery packs for hybrid vehicles."

    "Ford currently has 380,000 electric motors in the field packed inside those 190,000 hybrids sold so far and out of that number of electric motors not a single one has failed so far. "

    So maybe there's not much info on battery harm to the environment because their simply hasn't been anything significant enough to measure so far.
    2017 Infiniti QX60 (me), 2012 Hyundai Elantra (wife)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Why because I can see these cars and batteries just getting dumped.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    You may see it but I don't. Very few cars less than 20 years old are just "dumped". It will be quite awhile until hybrids get that old and by then I'm sure 100% will be recycled not just to save the environment but because of $$$$. Just about all cars these days are recycled to a very large degree. I would think that the depleted battery in a hybrid would probably have value...maybe even considerable value. This would cause it to reclaimed.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I think these batteries have the same value as my cell phone battery.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Ha. Funny. Good one.
  • Sandman6472Sandman6472 Member Posts: 6,968
    Personally, I don't believe everything I read. Just because something is written does not make it true!

    The Sandman :) :sick: :shades:

    2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)

  • kyrptokyrpto Member Posts: 216
    sam43 posted:

    Purchasers of hybrids gleam when pulling up in front of their local golf club or child's school in their quest to be considered 'green'.

    Most hybrids are barely indistinguishable from their normally aspirated counter parts, the exceptions being the Prius and the Sonata. Our '06 Highlander only had a small 3' X 2' "synergy drive" emblem on the hatch.

    There's gonna be a tidal wave of new hybrids as the CAFE regs tighten.
    sam43 must be jealous or jilted! LOL!
  • fushigifushigi Member Posts: 1,459
    Given your post, I can say the same. ;)
    2017 Infiniti QX60 (me), 2012 Hyundai Elantra (wife)
  • samm43samm43 Member Posts: 195
    edited December 2011
    If you are trying to make a point, it would be more fair to include all of my quote, that way others can see the (accurate) context in which the post was communicating.
    Here is my entire quote:
    (notice that while you started the sentence with a capital P in the word 'purchasers' suggesting that that is how I started my sentence, the context is completely manipulated if starting it the way you did.
    (also notice some key words I have highlighted)

    "While I don't disagree with your reasoning (not at ALL actually) some, rationalize the price of (potentially..depending on a person's balance of logic vs conviction) their pacification that purchasers of hybrids gleam when pulling up in front of their local golf club or child's school in their quest to be considered 'green'.
    In those same families, you are liable to also find a big block powered gas SUV idling to retain cabin heat or A/C in front of the local convenience store."

    Puts a difference swing on it doesn't it?

    And just to clarify, are you suggesting that there is a similar number of 06 hyrid Highlanders sold as there are Pruii?

    I am neither jealous nor jilted, and can't comprehend why you found that funny enough to laugh out loud but glad you are enjoying the thread.

    Enjoy your 06 Highlander hybrid.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Puts a difference swing on it doesn't it?

    No, not at all. Your post still appears condescending toward those that own hybrids. Sounds like a personal problem to me.
  • kyrptokyrpto Member Posts: 216
    A succinct reply that says it all!
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    edited December 2011
    Cars said to be very quiet are the 2012 Camry and the 2013 Malibu. Both cars market quietness as a major selling feature, especially the 2013 Malibu. The 2013 Malibu is not on sale yet, but they talk and talk and talk about how quiet it's going to be.
    Does anyone know which is going to be the absolute quietest with the most road noise blocked?
    Is either as quiet as a new Avalon?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I have read that the new Verano is very quiet also. It's closer to a compact, but you didn't say "mid-sized sedans."

    I haven't driven the new Passat but I wonder how quiet it is?
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    I'm not considering the Verano. Too expensive, poor fuel economy MPG for the small size and it didn't have some feature I wanted at the time I had considered it (probably backup camera).
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    What is the best Midsize Sedan sold today, and why?

    Pound for pound, dollar for dollar?
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • rmirannermiranne Member Posts: 2
    I like the Mazda 6. I drive a 07 6i 5-door. I think it's styling and handling are great and sets it apart from the plain vanilla Camry and fughly Accord. It's a great value for the money with good factory incentives. The dealers are willing to deal on it. You will not see 50-100 of these a day. You will not be driving the same boring car as everyone else. Also, for the current year they are still being made down I-75 from me in Flat Rock, MI in the same plant that makes the Mustang. You can't get more USA made than that. Mine has 86,000 trouble free miles on it. I plan to look at the new model due in 2013, but the current one is a great value. :shades:
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    By the numbers Camry is the #1 seller in the US and for good reason. I usually rent a Camry when I go out of town, good gas mileage, no drama, comfortable, delivers.

    Everyone has their own opinion. 2012 Camry looks like an enticing vehicle.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    A reporter is looking to interview midsize or small car owners who recently switched from Honda or Toyota to Chrysler, Ford or GM. Email pr@edmunds.com no later than Thursday, January 5, 2012 with your daytime contact information and a few words about your decision and your experience so far.

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  • crankeeecrankeee Member Posts: 298
    Andres: Lots of good choices at various price points out there. We just bought 2012 Sonata GLS with PEP - list $22,450. Good value for the money and lots of features with a great warranty (if Hyundai delivers & establishes a bulletproof reputation for their cars). Camry SE also in the running with the new Malibu. Dealer service is a major factor and depends on those in our area. Hyundai seemed to fit the bill and the price was right. Initial intown MPG seems to be right on the EPA numbers so with gas bound to go up, with Chines demand, that was also a major factor (24/35). Time for us to pull the trigger with interest rates and car demand increasing. good luck.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Home run IMO. 1.6 ecoboost, 2.0 ecoboost and possibly 2 hybrid models. Embargo is lifted in a hour or so - won't have to guess for long.

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  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    1.6 EB - 26 city/37 hwy
    2.0 EB - mileage not given but this is the performance version - expect 250-270 hp
    2.0 Hybrid 47 city/44 hwy

    And the biggest surprise of all - a 2.0 Energi plug-in hybrid!

    Wow!
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    edited January 2012
    Pretty nice. I see a lot of other cars in this but then again just about every new design has things that look a little like things that came before. Some will [non-permissible content removed] that they are copying but there is only so much different you can do. I see Sonata tailights, Mazda6 tailpipes, Aston Martin grill(althought the whole front end kind of reminds me of a smaller Taurus. I have to give to Ford for keeping this so well under wraps. Also like that they appear to have gotten rid of the piano black plastic in the interior which has always looked cheap IMO.

    Are those official EPA numbers or Ford's estimates? Either way they look good.
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