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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    edited November 2012
    I'm headin' to our local Hasting's Book Store tonight and grabbing me a copy and reading up on it. I've only noticed one article on it and it wasn't definitive what was causing the problems. Mexican workers? Foreign workers? European?

    Jealousy over Alan Mulally's earnings? When Alan Mulally was my boss at The Boeing Company's Everett Division, we would gossip about his boss-i-ness. But he was the boss. I mean, 'Where's the beef'?

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,507
    you have to look at the details. I believe it primarily had to do with the DSG (so just focus?) and the mytouch nonsense.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Just read C/D's review of the Fusion Hybrid. Less quick than the old one, but averaged 32 mpg. I thought that sounded pretty good until I read CR's review of the Altima 2.5. They averaged 31 mpg and 44 mpg on the highway... and that car starts around $22k, thousands less than the Fusion.

    Of course, maybe CR would get higher FE on the Fusion Hybrid than C/D did. But it's pretty amazing what can be achieved now with regular ICE powertrains on mid-sized cars... numbers that would look good even on a compact car. Will be interesting to see how the new Accord does in CR's tests. Too bad they didn't test it alongside the Altima.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    I see Hyundai and Kia have been under the microscope for falsifying EPA mileage numbers. I'm not surprised. I thought the new Sonata's numbers looked a little too optimistic to me. As did their new Elantra.

    I also don't think we would see that CR's Altima 2.5 with such impressive numbers if the car was loaded to..say...half to two thirds capacity, the way many of these cars will actually be going down the highway. That 44 (or 31 avg FTM) would be basically impossible for any length of time and simply not achievable in hilly country. I even wonder if it is truly representative of its potential if the A/C was on during entire review.

    I am no Hybrid fan, beyond mere speculative curiosity due to my perception of real world longevity costs down the road long after wty, but I think in my example above, a hybrid or even the newer turbos tuned for economy, have the ability to more closely get the higher avg in real world use.

    I feel the same way if you were to compare a regularly heavy footed driver in a CVT vs a conventional 6 speed auto. That type of driver will get higher mpg with the 6 speed.
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    Considering how c/d got 19 mpg in their recent test of the Altima ( in their comparision test) you can see how they tend to drive cars, so the 32 for the fusion hybrid is impressive, CR will almost definately get better results in their testing, so you will have to wait until they test it to get a true picture of the comparision ( I believe CR tries to duplicate the tests with every car they test, while C/D may not).
    In any case the Altima CR results look good, but the ones from C/D don't so that should tell you not to compare the two mags economy results.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I see Hyundai and Kia have been under the microscope for falsifying EPA mileage numbers. I'm not surprised. I thought the new Sonata's numbers looked a little too optimistic to me.

    If you read that report, you should have noticed that the only Sonatas and Optimas included in the EPA estimates reset are the hybrids... not the regular ICE cars.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    edited November 2012
    It's entirely possible that the car can get silly numbers on the EPA tests. Auto manufacturers have long known what the test is and often put in extra tall gears and alter the shift points so that the car is basically idling as much of the time as possible while it is on the dyno at those specific speeds. (ie - they'll make it shift into overdrive at 1-2mph lower than the city test speeds as an example)

    But in real-world driving, this results in an undriveable car, so most people do what comes naturally. They give it more gas to not be a hazard or die of boredom hyper-milling along like a 90 year old man. The most incredible example of this was the original Prius, which was completely silly and had to be altered downwards. (this was before the EPA changed the ratings as well).

    GM andFord are also famous for this, but because they almost always use 6 cylinder engines in their vehicles, they can get away with the car being geared wrong since there's enough torque to still be driveable without flogging it or having to down-shift constantly.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    edited November 2012
    I see tons of Sonatas, Camrys, Altimas, Malibus, and Fusions at the rental car dealerships. The only one I've seen few of and hard to find at the Rental companies are the Accord and Passat. Not, that you can't find them, but not in the abundance of the other 5.

    If I was getting a mid-size sedan tomorrow, it would either be the Altima, Accord, or Passat.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    Those would be good choices for sure. But none of them, other than perhaps the 200, Avenger and Galant would be inferior choices.

    I like the Passat best for room, quiet, handling and restrained but tasteful styling. But I wouldn't be unhappy to drive the new Accord (previous version looks kind of dowdy to me), or the Altima or even the Malibu. The new Fusion comes with that often-used Ford technique of styling a car to actually appear smaller than it is. Some people might like that. I don't, just as I thought it was silly way back with the 1996 Taurus, which was bigger but struck Tom and Ray on Car Talk at the time as looking smaller than the 1995. I digress.

    I'd buy the Fusion Hybrid in a heartbeat if I needed a new vehicle. However, unless I crash, I won't be needing one for awhile. I still think the Optima looks awesome, while the Sonata is not to my taste. Very competitive market, and some have to lose out, even if they are good cars.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Hertz for one has Passats. I got one the other day in Phoenix, an SE. Nice ride. One of the few good things about business travel these days is getting to check out different cars.

    Accords are pretty scarce on rental although I've seen them at Hertz and other places before. Hertz used to have a lot of Sonatas but not lately, from what I've seen. Other rental companies may have them. I don't see many Optimas at all--and I'd like to rent one of those sometime.

    I'd likely favor the Altima 2.5S, Accord LX if looking for a mid-sized car right now--best blend of fuel economy, ride/handling, interior room, and interior/exterior style out there for the money, IMO. I'd also look at the Optima LX. However, local VW dealers sometimes offer a 0 down lease on the Passat for around $200, and that could be hard to passat-up... er, pass up.
  • serenity185serenity185 Member Posts: 22
    Though I'm currently not in the market, if I were buying a midsize sedan, I'd have the Accord and Altima at the top of my list. They're both handsome vehicles, and I think their interiors are by far the best in the class. The only concern I have is that I hear they've both lost a bit of their sportiness, but if they've made up for that with increased ride comfort, that'd be fine with me.

    For now, I'm pretty happy with my 2007 4cyl EX Accord. It has given me 20,000 trouble free miles over the past two years and still feels incredibly solid.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    backy said:
    "If you read that report, you should have noticed that the only Sonatas and Optimas included in the EPA estimates reset are the hybrids... not the regular ICE cars."

    GST responds with:
    If you had read this report you would find that your report and this one vary wildly with affected cars.
    See link below, and note the following additional cars involved which are NOT hybrids.
    Hyundai's Elantra, Accent, Azera, Genesis, Tucson, Veloster and Santa Fe.
    Kia's Sorrento, Rio, Soul, Sportage

    http://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/epa-audit-finds-inflated-gas-mileage-hyundai-ki- a-083359433.html

    "The errors involve 13 models from the 2011 through 2013 model years, including seven Hyundais and six Kias. Window stickers will have to be changed on some versions of the following models: Hyundai's Elantra, Sonata Hybrid, Accent, Azera, Genesis, Tucson, Veloster and Santa Fe. Kia models affected include the Sorrento, Rio, Soul, Sportage and Optima Hybrid."
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    I know these have been posted before, but again here are links to the complete official lists from both Hyundai and Kia...

    https://hyundaimpginfo.com/overview/affected-models

    https://kiampginfo.com/overview/affected-models
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    A reporter is looking for a recent car buyer whose car's sunroof/moonroof feature was a big factor in their purchase decision. Please send your daytime contact info to smar@edmunds.com no later than Monday, November 5, 2012 at 5 p.m. Pacific.

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  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    I agree with some of the points you make here.

    Crash tests are also manipulated in much the same way. Actually, the test itself is not necessarily manipulated, but the structure/design of the car is built in anticipation of said crashes.

    If you notice the link I posted above to backy, it is interesting to note that Hyundia and Kia are taking a very responsible stance for their errors and are issuing prepaid debit cards to original owners. They are calculated to represent the difference mpg claims in 15k miles per year + an additional 15% for life of ownership of that car to original owner.

    Even though it still could be a very well handled damage-control maneuver, regardless of motive of the original (potential) misrepresentation, it is being handled better than many other certain brands I can think of.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    But I think you missed backy's point: while there were a number of ICE Kias and Hyundais that over-estimated mpg, ICE Sonatas and Optimas were not among them.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited November 2012
    Thanks for the reminder that this is a discussion about MID-SIZED SEDANS... not compacts, subcompacts, near-luxury cars, sporty cars, SUVs etc.
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    EPA to look closer at others?
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    It's entirely possible that the car can get silly numbers on the EPA tests. Auto manufacturers have long known what the test is and often put in extra tall gears and alter the shift points so that the car is basically idling as much of the time as possible while it is on the dyno at those specific speeds. (ie - they'll make it shift into overdrive at 1-2mph lower than the city test speeds as an example)

    They don't have to try that hard. I believe each manufacturer performs their own tests and shares that info with the EPA (fox guarding hen house). I think the EPA only performs the odd audit.
  • mtnman1mtnman1 Member Posts: 431
    edited November 2012
    Maybe they should make car buyers reimburse Manufacturers if they get better mileage. Had a 2003 Sonota V6 which I gave to my daughter (nearing 100,000 miles) and I got 30mpg on the highway. My Current Ford Fusion SEL V6 is rated at 19/26 and I always get close to 30mpg Hwy and around 18 or 19 city. My Wife's Highlander Limited 4WD V6 is rated 17/22 and we get close to the city mpg, but we get 23.5mpg on the highway. Traded a 2011 Kia Sorento EX FWD V6 for the Highlander and usually got 25mpg Hwy, but had trouble getting over 16 city.
    2012 Highlander Limited AWD V6 and 2015 Ford Fusion Hybrid SE
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    Only if the consumer falsifies the claim, and causes the manufacturer to spend money AFTER the transaction that was not anticipated, as a result of the consumer's false claim.

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
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  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Better buy your new Kizashi quick. American Suzuki just went bankrupt and will cease operations after current inventory runs out.

    http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/05/american-suzuki-motors-files-chapter-11-will-- no-longer-sell-car/
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The EPA tests 10-15 percent of new cars every year. That's not the 'odd audit'.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited November 2012
    I bet those Kizashis can be had now for a heckofadeal. :):cry:

    I wonder how long it will be before Mitsubishi follows suit... most of their models have been retired, including the Galant, which at one time was considered one of the top cars in its class.
  • jvbeattiejvbeattie Member Posts: 5
    CR states Ford quality is much better now, they slip in some categories because of the my ford touch system has issues. that brings they're reliability down. Also what the MT or C/D mags mentioned. This isn't a deal-breaker, for me at least. Drive is way better than 2013 Accord.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    Ok :)

    That seems like an odd audit to me.

    What my original post was to convey was MOST of the testing (85% - 90%) is performed by the manufacturers, not the EPA.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    You could see this coming from a mile away.

    Locally...a couple years ago we had a new Suzuki dealership built close to our house. Within a year they went out of business and the facility has been on the market ever since.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Yes - most of the testing is done by the mfrs but they are very good at it and they understand that if they're caught fudging the consequences are dire both in terms of their corporate career and PR and financially for the company. The 10% - 15% audit amounts to a "surprise inspection" that keeps most of the mfrs on their toes due to the severe consequences of being caught. Not sure how these guys got away with it for so long - maybe they just got lucky.

    I believe only 2 vehicles had been flagged with invalid results in the last 10-12 years and I believe those were relatively minor.

    It's easy to cheat but not easy to do it for very long without being caught.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes - most of the testing is done by the mfrs but they are very good at it ...

    Well, MOST of them are good at it. Some have some problems there. :sick:
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Or maybe they were very very good at it to get away with it for 2+ years......
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Either they messed up big-time and didn't realize their mistake until the EPA found it, or they counted on luck to save them from a customer sat disaster, and worse.

    Either way, not very "good".
  • sdcal2sdcal2 Member Posts: 12
    Why is no one talking about the fact that Ford is not shipping any more fusions? All built vehicles are being shipped to Flat Rock for a "Quality Issue". Not one word on any blog
    What's up
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    All cars are not affected - only some. And there isn't much information as to what actually happened. It was either a line problem or a part problem that appears to have been fixed already. There was no stop sale or recall on vehicles already produced. I think they're shipping them to Flat Rock for inspection and repair so they don't slow down the plant. Ford is probably using an abundance of caution with the Fusion launch after the issues they had with the Focus and Escape launches. Nothing to worry too much about yet.
  • sdcal2sdcal2 Member Posts: 12
    There are NO more Fusions being shipped to dealers period. Many dealers that have units have removed them from showroom floor. My unit was ordered in August and built in October and is still sitting in Mexico. Per Ford now expect delivery before end of December. All units will be shipped to Flat Rock for inspection and then shipped out to dealers. I will bet there will be a recall on units already sold soon

    I would say they have plenty to worry about
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Source? That doesn't match what I've been reading.
  • albanytimalbanytim Member Posts: 18
    I have the same question for sdcal2... what is your source that Ford stopped shipping Fusions? According to my local dealers' websites, they are getting more almost every day. Unfortunately they are almost all the 2.5 and 1.6. I am waiting to test drive the 2.0 and the hybrid.
  • igozoomzoomigozoomzoom Member Posts: 801
    "Locally...a couple years ago we had a new Suzuki dealership built close to our house. Within a year they went out of business and the facility has been on the market ever since."

    Built??? That isn't a word I've ever associated with a Suzuki dealership. All of the ones that I've ever seen (in GA, AL and TN), were office trailers parked on an existing parking lot (old, cracked asphalt usually) or even on gravel lot! Nothing says class like buying a car out of a trailer on an unpaved lot!

    With such high-end dealer facilities, selling far more rebadged Daewoos than vehicles they engineered and built AND spending less on marketing than the local Tasty Freeze....what went wrong with such a solid business plan???
    2015.5 Volvo S60 T6 Drive-E Platinum, 2012 Mazda CX-9 GT
  • igozoomzoomigozoomzoom Member Posts: 801
    "I bet those Kizashis can be had now for a heckofadeal. :):cry:

    I wonder how long it will be before Mitsubishi follows suit... most of their models have been retired, including the Galant, which at one time was considered one of the top cars in its class."

    I've been wondering the same thing about the Kizashis! The Kizashi is a damn good car even after several years on the market. It is easily the best car that Suzuki has ever made, but sales have never hit 7,000 in any year since it was introduced. It's a shame.

    I wonder just how low prices will go during the sell-off? My bet is that the majority of the remaining inventory will be dumped into rental fleets. Enterprise and several smaller rental car companies bought Saturns and Pontiacs by the thousands when they were going out of business.

    There are still some former Saab dealers trying to get rid of new 2011 models. Some can be had for as much as 50% off sticker (especially the 9-5), but they don't have a warranty and aren't considered new. Most banks won't loan on them and insurance rates for Physical Damage (Comprehensive & Collision, which pay to repair the car) have increased significantly!

    I fear the same will happen with the insurance rates for Suzukis, especially the lowest volume models....well, that's all of them actually.

    I feel so sorry for anyone who has bought a new Suzuki in the last year or two and financed it for 60 or 72 months! Imagine how bad it would suck to owe $20k on a car only worth $12k! If they were smart enough to get GAP coverage, it wouldn't surprise me to see an increase in "total loss" single car crashes! I can hear it now, "That brick on the accelerator was sitting in the seat before the crash, it must have fell down there during the impact....yeah, that's it..."
    2015.5 Volvo S60 T6 Drive-E Platinum, 2012 Mazda CX-9 GT
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    In the November C/D comparo the 2013 Ford Fusion 1.6 Eco-Boost check engine light was activated a few times during testing. Not good. C/D also noted that the engine and tranny had to work hard due to peaky power delivery (smaller displacement).
    There are three engine choices for us here in the USA:
    1.6 EcoBoost (turbo) (made in UK)
    2.5 inline 4 (non-turbo) (made in Mexico)
    2.0 EcoBoost ( turbo) (made in Spain)

    I believe the check engine issues re just early production birthing hiccups. In other words; I would wait for a 2014 model that has all the bugs worked out. Make mine a 2.0 EcoBoost Titanium. Beautiful car inside and out.

  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    All of the ones that I've ever seen (in GA, AL and TN), were office trailers parked on an existing parking lot

    To be honest...this was the first Suzuki dealer I seen...or ever noticed. It isn't huge, but at the time I thought it must be Suzuki trying to make a push.

    I suppose the push turned into a final gasp pretty quickly...
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    Make mine a 2.0 EcoBoost Titanium. Beautiful car inside and out.

    Don't all Titanium models only come with a black interior?

    Unless there is a large amount of brushed aluminum to go along with an all black interior...I just don't like it.

    Many manufacturers do this on their 'sporty' models.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    I bought the 2012 Optima EX (non-hybrid) after reading all the reviews and driving two of it's competitors. It just blows them away for the money.

    I get 22-24 mpg in dense suburban and city driving. Pretty good numbers for my heavy foot. Also, the 2.4 sounds really sporty and refined too. It's dual exhaust just sings, and the manual shift mode is satisfying for downshifts while decelerating to a stop instead of being hard on the brakes. The brakes are excellent though.

    All of the reviews I read on the Son-Optima Hybrid said it was "unrefined and clunky". There are just too many more clutches and moving parts spinning for my money and driving style. I have seen the Optima hybrid on the road..nice looking.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    I don't know for sure about only black interior on Titanium, or if there are real aluminum dash pieces, but C/D says "metal trim accents abound".

    I do know I like the way newer Ford dashes look, especially with the reconfigurable TFT gauge cluster display and center touch screen. It looks more expensive than mine....but not 10k better!!!

    BTW, my Optima has real aluminum trim at $24,260 EX. Also has some fake Black-Zebrano wood accents that are very tasteful.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited November 2012
    HAHAHAHAHA LMAOOOOOOO

    The original Samurai was very very popular in it's hey-day. It was a cheap alternative to a "real" Jeep, you could take the top off and cruise. On my honeymoon in Aruba/Caribbean they were everywhere. (1999).

    I recall lots of girls in the pink and black model. Then there was the XL-7, Sidekick, XC-90 "cute Ute".

    I am just gonna shut up now. They were all horrible sh#@box's.
  • sdcal2sdcal2 Member Posts: 12
    I admit this is some part speculation and some what people who you would think should know have told me. When you go to Ford.com go to Fusions and then to Search Dealer Inventory by Zip Code. I admit I have only done this for Southern California. What I have found are the same couple units at all dealers that they have had for a few weeks and all others "In Stock" say "Dealer Ordered". One dealer took the one they had on display and told me they put it in the back but would not give a reason but 2 weeks later that's where it still sits. My dealer has had the exact same two units that are "Available" for 3 weeks now on the list. I can't believe they simply can't find anyone to buy these units but their list of "Dealer Ordered" has doubled and in some cases Tripled. I am not sure if Ford has begun production of the Fusion out of the Flat Rock plant (Thought 2014) but all units I have looked at are coming out of Hermosillo Mexico Plant. When you click on the Monroney sticker you can see the plant and manufacture date. All dates on units that dealers have are old (August). Units are usually delivered to California dealers 10 to 14 days after manufacturing. I would love to know differently as it seems I would be better off just buying a unit off of a local dealers showroom floor as opposed to waiting two additional months. Also, if this was not the case why not just reorder as they claim delivery time is 6 to 8 weeks and forget about a car that might have an issue and has been freighted all over.

    Would love for someone who really knows what's going on to post here but everything is hush hush that I can find nothing.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Latest rumor is a parts shortage so some vehicles are being built without those parts and shipped to Flat Rock to have those parts added (headlights, headliners were mentioned). Flat Rock is not online yet so this is a perfect situation to handle this type of problem. The memo I saw indicated the shortage was over and only affected about 100 retail (sold) orders - the rest were dealer stock. I think we'll know a lot more once it's over.
  • albanytimalbanytim Member Posts: 18
    I just "built" a Fusion Titanium on Ford's site and I can confirm that no matter what exterior color I chose, the interior is Charcoal Black.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Yes, all Titaniums have black interiors with silver accents. No choice.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    Hate all-black interiors. Will never buy another.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited November 2012
    All I know is that I have seen one (1) 2013 Fusion on the road. One. It was beautiful in "Deep Impact Blue" (looked it up on Ford site). I would not have named the paint on an unproven model after a horrific disastrous explosion, but that is just me....

    I live in the DC metro area and seeing only one new Fusion strikes me as weird. I mean there are 3 large Ford dealers within 5 miles of my house. So, where are all the Fusions indeed!? There are over a million people in my County alone. Only one dude bought one?

    I know it is part of a recall, but that can also work in the dealers favor. Limited availability can and will drive up the price as long as the dealer can keep recall activity quiet.

    It is a very desirable car. It looks like an Aston in the front, a Jag from the side, and has a Volvo-esque dash layout. None of that will help it though if it is seen as a problem car :lemon: , especially for the price Ford has set.

    I am pulling for Ford. It will kill them if this car isn't awesome.
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