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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • trusso69trusso69 Member Posts: 68
    The new Accord uses 0W-20 synthetic oil; not sure when they started that. What oil viscosity was in your Dad's 2009 Accord V-6?
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited March 2013
    I think it's 5w20, but I don't believe synthetic was recommended originally. The dealer switched him to synthetic a month or so ago saying that honda recommends it now.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    edited March 2013
    I'd switch back to a 5w20. Preferably a high-mileage oil as it has higher levels of zinc and other anti-wear additives. (Castrol GTX/High mileage) is a good choice, IMO.

    I started learning about oils about 7 or 8 years ago when I had an engine in my 60s Mercedes eat itself within six months of the EPA mandating lower levels of additives in oils. And it's gotten worse since then. This is all due to rules concerning catalytic converters and warranties on them. The additives protect your engines very very well, but they also are death to a catalytic converter. When oils were at the older 1600ppm standard, almost nobody's CAT would last close to 100K miles. So they lowered it to 1200ppm and more of them are making it to 100K. Soon it will be 800ppm or lower as they are aiming for mandating lifetime durability.

    So your CAT lasts for the life of the car. Too bad your engine won't.

    Note - oils sold in other countries don't follow this idiocy. It's why you rarely hear of engines dying from oil related issues overseas. a CAT is cheap to replace compared to the entire block.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited March 2013
    Interesting. Despite the changes with motor oils you still don't see many engines failing early IMO. I've got 117k miles on my 07 Expedition and every oil change has been in the 4-6k mile range with whatever my local independent tire shop puts in it. I know they use the recommended 5w-20, but I think it's bulk mobile. Despite doing lots of heavy towing in hot weather it's never used a drop of oil.

    Most people don't pay attention to what oil goes into their engines yet it seems more cars are making it to 200k than ever. My MIL has almost 190k on her '05 Camry without any special care regarding oil. Like most, when the oil change light comes on, she takes it in for an oil change.

    I know what you mean regarding the cats. We purchased a new boat last year that has catalytic converters (thanks EPA) and it states in the manual that a specified synthetic oil must be used in order to protect cats.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited March 2013
    Yes, I understand that there are power losses in the driveline when it comes to dyno testing, and that the figures are usually 25% lower at the wheels.

    I also know that the VW 2.0T is underrated. One magazine ventured to say that " it is the strongest 200 HP we have ever seen". Still... It tells me that the Germans are still more reputable than the Koreans. A 50 HP deficit is substantial. If it came in at 170 I would be fine with that. Cadillac also took a hit when it's 2.0T(270HP) was accused of being 40 HP short by C/D in a recent comparo against it's nemesis ; the BMW 528.I guess it is legal to advertise 270HP ; even if it's only between 5700 to 5701rpm. The next car I buy is going to be a step up to luxury sport sedans; and I will make sure it's numbers are vetted.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited March 2013
    Hey, I really appreciate your thoughts on the K&N filter. The last thing I need is a damaged engine. However, I can't get over the fact that my '94 SHO was equipped with one from the factory. It ran for 150K w/o incident until I sold it.

    I see by your post that you have engine repair experience, so I consider your advice to be accurate/expert. Still, I read that the K&N was even better at filtering fine particulates, even when new. So, I will check into it further. The good news is I am not married to it. I can always just pop in a OEM type unit.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I also know that the VW 2.0T is underrated.

    That or very good at getting most of the power to the ground. Regardless, I've sampled a few and they do indeed feel strong for their power rating. Probably has to do with having a broad powerband.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The K&N does not filter as well as OEM when first installed. That's the whole point - to allow more air at WOT. As the filter works it slowly fills in with particles such that it probably does filter just as well as OEM. But when that happens you're also not getting any more airflow than OEM either. Buy it for the sound or to avoid buying new ones but not for power.
  • marcus216marcus216 Member Posts: 78
    Just curious if anyone out there with a 2013 Honda accord with Hondalink has had audio issues. I have had my Honda Accord EXL V6 only a few days and I had an instance of a buzzing/static sound coming from the audio on any source. Even when I turned the audio off, I could hear the buzzing/static sound. When I turned the car off and re-started, the issue was resolved, as if restarting the engine allows the audio system to reset itself. I am wondering if this is due to the active noise cancellation system? I called m dealer and talked with the service manager and he told me that they have not seen this issue. I found this video on YouTube from a guy who has experienced the same thing. Interesting.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vV0Wq23Y9_M
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    I bought it for the sound mostly. I did some more research. The way the K&N works is by channeling the air through multiple layers of cotton fiber. It is kind of like a folded sock with the hole at the front where the air comes in. Also, it is not dusty where I live (NOVA). My only concern would be spring pollen.

    It's not loud enough that it sounds like a boy-racer Civic Del-Sol with primer ground effects,neon lights underneath, formula one sized wing, stuffed with sub-woofers, and a trash can sized exhaust pipe. LOL.

    See funny commercial here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXhZqW-4vV8
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    edited March 2013
    Modern engines of course, can get away with the lower levels. But many cars are still using engines designed on 1970s or 80s designs. Also, lower revving engines can pretty much run on anything that looks like it might be oil :)

    1200ppm seems to be the lower limit for those engines, but you don't know how your older engine will run on the newer 800ppm oils until you see it blow up (or not).

    "High mileage" oil is regular 800ppm oil that is allowed to be at the older 1200ppm standard by the EPA. Any sane person, IMO, would want to run with higher levels of anti-wear additives in their engine and ignore whether the cat will live an extra few years. My car has 120K on it and it's already worn out enough without playing Roulette with the oil.

    Note - about synthetic. Synthetics are superior to conventional oils in every way except for one:
    - They have a specific issue in that while they fail at vastly greater intervals than conventional oil, when they do fail, minus the anti-wear additives, they provide almost no protection. That is, the base stock that they use for conventional oil provides some innate protection. You can even clean it and recycle it for another use. You cannot do this with synthetic. Once it's used, it's done with.

    So as long as you change your synthetic oil often enough, that is, before it fails, you're good to go. But since every synthetic is formulated differently and every manufacturer's interval is different, well, it's kind of a big single issue in my mind. Can you go 10K? 15k? 20k? Who knows?

    IMO, the smart compromise is a synthetic blend as if the synthetic part fails for whatever reason, there's still something to fall back on. Maybe not a lot, but probably just enough to keep your bottom bearings from eating themselves. And, it's a lot cheaper as well.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    "...with synthetic. Once it's used, it's done with."

    Never heard this before. I wonder why they let you recycle synthetic in the same vat with regular oil if they are a ticking bomb about to fail. :confuse:
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    Do you have an i-pod or phone....or any other device plugged in to the aux input or the USB port? Said device could have it's audio all the way up (so it sounds good through the car stereo and has all of the desired volume (basically it would be more like the gain being up all the way). With the volume all the way up and your stereo off, said device still has enough output to make the static/buzzing sound through the car's speakers. Check it out.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    There's "recycling" oil in terms of safely removing it from the environment and there's oil made from recycled oils. As far as I know, the shops are supposed to collect them separately but since almost nobody does, they mix the resulting (mostly conventional with some synthetic) mixture with some new synthetic and market it as "recycled".

    Valvoline mixes 50% processed but used oil with 50% new oil in their formulation. Others may vary.

    (from their site/advert)
    "When you buy a new bottle of motor oil, what you're actually getting is a liquid that contains 85 percent motor oil and 15 percent additives. When that motor oil runs through your engine for a few thousand miles and gets "used," all that really happens is that additives get contaminated and useless, while the 85 percent motor oil is still there, still okay. This 85 percent is called base oil, and it can be reclaimed and turned into new motor oil."

    They can get away with this trick because in most cars, they can actually go 5-6K or more between changes now, and since a lot of people still change conventional oils at 3-4K, there's a decent enough safety margin.
  • tundradweller1tundradweller1 Member Posts: 74
    One of the complaints on the new Accords. Search the web, Honda should have a fix for this.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited March 2013
    I actually find the new Verano to be a very attractive car. I would not consider it a large sedan, nor would I consider it a luxury sedan (starts at $23,080 with the "standard group" 2.4).

    $24,375 with the "convenience" group. (comparable to EX trim on Honda and Kia)

    $26,755 with the leather group

    $29,000. Leather/convenience/Turbo

    These prices and specs fall right in line with all of our cars.

    The engine specs totally meet all the mid size sedan specs: 180 HP 2.4, 250 HP Turbo 4.

    6 speed automatic or, astonishingly for a Buick, a 6 speed manual is available with the Turbo.

    I found the specs on Buick's site: http://www.buick.com/verano-luxury-sedan/features-specs/trims-equipment-groups.h- tml
  • targettuningtargettuning Member Posts: 1,371
    Funny, my experience with Honda runs 180 degrees counter to this stellar "care" by Honda USA
    I'll explain, we bought a 2006 Civic new in Oct 2005, it was my first Honda of any type. I routinely checked on TSB's for the then new Civic just to keep an eye on things. In the summer of 2006 a TSB showed up with the picture of a Civic block (front and rear) and outlined in RED were the paths two potential cracks in the block one in front and one in back. I began to see reports soon after of owners having cracking blocks which immediately dumped the coolant destroying the engines. These people were complaining that these cracks were showing up without any negative input from them i.e. running low on coolant/oil etc. Honda was denying claims left and right fixing them with new short blocks and charging the customer whatever the freight would bear ...the more they complained the more Honda would pony-up. Some paid the entire thing (around $5000), some paid different amounts depending on the level of customer complaint or Honda loyalty meaning they owned several Honda's previously. Honda actually required receipts of ALL Honda services done only at a Honda service center before even considering compensation. Thing is, this was a metalurgy or engineering issue and it continued from the 2006 through 2008 model years. No, it never happened to me BUT in January of 2011 I (and all Current Civic owners) received an "extended engine warranty" covering the cracked block problem. This after "only" 6 years of ownership. Honda finally fessed up to having a problem. Countless owners paid varying amounts to have this fixed over the years leading up to this. So, the idea of quickly addressing this particular problem on Honda's part is a joke. Kicking and screaming maybe!!
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Verano is a compact built on the Cruze frame. The Regal is the midsize offering from Buick. IMO Buick is in no mans land...not quite luxury, not quite mainstream. The Malibu is the car that fits in this group but if want to talk Buick, it's the Regal. The Lacrosse is full size.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    You may still want to step up to lux for your next car, but the 2013 Honda Accord seems to not only meet its power rating but may be underrated according to this dyno test of the 4 cylinder by temple of vtec. They take the car all the way to the electronically limited max speed of 127mph (without going anywhere, of course):

    http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-article?article_id=1136687&page_number=2
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    As some of you saw, I was warned that the K & N filter may not completely protect my engine completely, or at least as well as the stock paper filter. It turns out that my Optima has a secondary hepa fine particulate filter just before air enters the engine. So, no need to worry about it. It also has a cabin filter on a secondary tube for the A/C. Can't wait to try it out tomorrow on my high speed commute.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Wouldn't a secondary filter completely negate any added airflow from the K&N?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    It seemed like it was pretty thin. I am not an engineer though. I do like the improved intake growl, and I liked the K&N 's quality construction. It is 1/4 the thickness of the bulky, stock paper filter. Like I said though, it's only $40, including shipping from Amazon. I like it, and in the end that is all that matters. :P :)
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    The Verano is positioned as a mid - size sedan alternative. It's drivetrains, weight, pricing, and equipment are aimed squarely at the mid size market. GM calls it a Compact Luxury Sedan. If it was a true compact, then it would have the Cruze drivetrains.
  • b25nutb25nut Member Posts: 202
    CR's ratings were for the 80 cars they tested in the last 12 months. The 2013 Ford Fusion Hybrid finished #2, so some domestics are catching up.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    The 2013 Ford Fusion Hybrid finished #2, so some domestics are catching up.

    Ford has some very good offerings in the last few years. Also of note, Ford did not have to take a government, we taxpayer, bailout as did GM and Chrysler which is now owned by a foreign company. Kind of again. Didn't Mercedes Benz buy Chrysler over 10 years ago?
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    edited March 2013
    No, it is not positioned as a "midsize sedan alternative". Whatever that is. It is well known if you'd care to research it that the Verano is a compact, the Regal is a midsize and the LaCrosse is full size. Look at Buicks website and do a comparison. The first car that comes up in comparison to the Verano is the Acura ILX which is built on the Civic frame. Would you consider the Civic a midsize sedan? Don't know what is so hard to grasp that the Regal is Buicks midsize entry and the Verano is Buicks compact sedan entry. It is built on the Cruze frame and is almost the same exact size as the Cruze. The wheelbase and height are exactly the same as well as some other specs.

    The Buick weighs more because it has a lot more sound deadening and laminated glass. The reason the drivetrain is diffierent is to differentiate it from the Cruze and make it more of a premium car or Buick. If it was the same drivetrain everybody would just buy a loaded Cruze and that GM is badge engineering again. In fact, a lot of people that don't know any better still say that the Verano is just a fancy Cruze. I don't agree at all as I really like the Verano. But just because something is priced similarly doesn't put it automatically in the same class of car. The Ford Focus is priced very similar to many midsize cars but nobody is comparing it to a Camry.

    Granted the Cruze and the Verano are both on the large side of the compact like the Sentra but they are all compact, not midsize entries.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited March 2013
    ??????? I do more research than anyone should who isn't getting paid for it. The Regal is a Sport Luxury Sedan. It IS Bucks middle offering, but is priced above our vehicles. The Regal starts at $30 grand. Our cars start at $20k. It could be said that neither car really is a mainstream mid size sedan, but I thought it important to at least recognize it as an alternative. ***mid size sedan alternative coined by Autoweek.
  • marcus216marcus216 Member Posts: 78
    thanks for the suggestion. I did have a USB flash drive running, so I did remove that and it did not solve the issue. I have since found a TSB with a software upgrade for the HondaLink system. I do not know whether this will address the issue or not. I am waiting for a letter from Honda indicating the need to visit my dealer and get the upgrade.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Well, if you had done research on the Verano then you would have found the same information that I did. And you have no idea how much research others do so don't assume anything there. You can usually get a nicer, smaller car with a lot of stuff for a similar price to a larger one so price really isn't the deciding factor in this. Buick is marketing itself as a "luxury" brand and most industry followers recognise it as a "tweener". It's got a 4 yr warranty like most luxury brands and the interiors have gotten almost luxurious as well. The Regal Turbo Prem. is $31,530. The Ford Fusion Titatinium(with 2.0 turbo) is $30,995. A whopping $535 difference.

    I agree that the Verano is an interesting car as it seems to provide a lot of room inside, quiet and seemingly luxurious with a compact outside and good power with the turbo. I like it and would consider it but I would realize that I was stepping into a compact premium sedan and not a mainstream midsize sedan as we discuss here

    I just don't know if I'm ready to try GM again after having so many over the years that just needed too many dealer visits during warranty and too many costly repairs after the warranty. I was almost exclusively GM for about 20 years and finally got fed up. Switched to 3 Japanese vehicles about 12 years ago and have been astounded by the difference in quality and ownership experience. Just let go of my 10 year old Infiniti which cost virtually nothing in repairs and warranty adjustments were a grand total of 1 minor issue.

    But the Verano is a compact semi-luxury or premium car that could be an alternative for some people. It's just not a mainstream midsize car.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    I hope it works out for you. The new Accord is a d*** fine car, in all versions. The last article I read on the Accord (C/D April) said that the infotainment system in the coupe was a little slow to respond. Can you confirm or was it a fluke? The writer found that he would end up hitting a button twice...etc.

    The Sport C/D tested the with the 6 speed manual got to 60 in 6.6 secs. Strong 2.4 Earth Dreams engine! The Sport with the 18's fooled me into thinking it was a V6. Priced right too.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    names the Accord their top midsize sedan:

    http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2013/04/top-picks-2013/index.htm

    Midsized sedan
    Honda Accord

    The Accord was redesigned for 2013, and Honda nailed it, sending this sedan to the top of its class. This new model is roomy, nice to drive, well equipped, and very fuel efficient. With its four-cylinder engine, the Accord squeezes out 30 mpg overall and 40 on the highway, which is as good as the tiny Honda Fit. Higher-trim models have safety features seldom found in this category. And the Accord’s price is very reasonable: $23,270 to $30,860.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    Some 2013 Accord owners should go to their Honda dealer for a firmware update to deal with audio/navi bugs.

    There's a TSB # available in the 9th generation forums in a sticky thread at:

    www.driveaccord.net

    gotta run and so can't look it up right now, but I'll try to later.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    It seems to be TSB# 13-001...
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • tundradweller1tundradweller1 Member Posts: 74
    They also test vacuum cleaners and other appliances.....;)
  • wayne21wayne21 Member Posts: 259
    They also test vacuum cleaners and other appliances.....

    GE makes jet engines AND toasters so what is your point? Consumer reports has a lot of experts from a lot of fields. If their staff of experts says something someone doesn't agree with do you just trash them? They go to great lengths to be honest and accurate. They tell you up front what they tested and how they tested it.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    true---lol! And I do take what CR says with a grain of salt, just like I do with everything I read. But at this point the new Accord has won most of the comparison tests it's been in, including this one from Car and Driver:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFTuxYMVY2I
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • wayne21wayne21 Member Posts: 259
    edited March 2013
    I think honda has stepped up its game quite a bit with the new accord and probably will force toyota to make some serious changes in the camry. To me, the most important would be the safety aspect - the new offset crash test - but most likely in other ways, too. I would trust consumer reports before I'd trust a magazine that had a car given to them for testing, but that's just me. I may not have the same opinion as consumer reports or agree with what they see, but I trust them.
  • tundradweller1tundradweller1 Member Posts: 74
    edited March 2013
    (Quote)GE makes jet engines AND toasters so what is your point? Consumer reports has a lot of experts from a lot of fields. If their staff of experts says something someone doesn't agree with do you just trash them? They go to great lengths to be honest and accurate. They tell you up front what they tested and how they tested it. (Quote)

    CR certainly has their reputation for un-biased testing. Personally I just give more credence to automotive reports from testers who are more involved with the automotive industry. Trashing them? Hardly.
    Cheers.
    TD
  • tundradweller1tundradweller1 Member Posts: 74
    (Quote) I just don't know if I'm ready to try GM again after having so many over the years that just needed too many dealer visits during warranty and too many costly repairs after the warranty. I was almost exclusively GM for about 20 years and finally got fed up. Switched to 3 Japanese vehicles about 12 years ago and have been astounded by the difference in quality and ownership experience. Just let go of my 10 year old Infiniti which cost virtually nothing in repairs and warranty adjustments were a grand total of 1 minor issue. (Quote)

    I too was a GM guy from the beginning, every vehicle. The last two cars (and current) have been Ford Taurus's with almost 200,000 miles on both. What a difference in low maintenance and lack of issues. Though they still have their quirks. I am purchasing a new car this spring and it will be Japanese.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    Hey, folks...reliability rankings change all the time. For instance, Buick and Cadillac both rank high now. Experiences with Mazda or Chevrolet or Ford or Hyundai from 12 years ago or 15 years ago have little bearing on the current crop of cars. Problems per 100 vehicles have been dropping across the board as quality improves. Competition from imports has vastly helped across the board. Unless you are buying Land Rover (which doesn't enter into a discussion of mid-size cars, and besides, LR owners couldn't care less about the rankings--which may be a reason they still have questionable reliability), you are likely to have a better experience buying any brand now than even Japanese brands of 20 years ago. Buy what you like.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    In a C/D article on mid-size sedan's (6 car comparo May 2012), it was said that it is far harder to build a mid-size sedan for $25,000 than it is to build a $100,000, 500 hp super-car. Again, mid-size sedans have to be all things for (mostly) all people.

    Furthermore, most luxury sedans and many crossovers share their underpinnings with the mid-size sedans their company produces. Take the Camry. The Venza, Solara, Rav-4, Lexus RX-350 and 4 Lexus sedan models are all based on the Camry. With Toyota at least, the Camry IS the franchise. There has to be a robust platform with top notch power-trains and advanced electronic systems so the various companies do not have to re-invent the wheel on their more profitable vehicles. Of course this platform sharing has been done for ages. So, the consumer really does win when 75% of their mid-size sedan is designed to pass mustard in luxury vehicles costing far more.
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    You are correct in most of your statement, except only one Lexus Cessna ( the ES) uses a platform based on a Toyota model ( the Avalon, which in its new form may or may not still be based on the same platform as the Camry, I think it is basically, but I am sure others will chime in). The othe IS and GS use a version of the engine, but nothing else the same as the Camry and the LS share no parts that I know of.
    Your point is still true though, it the midsized car has to be all things.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    cski wrote:

    "With Toyota at least, the Camry IS the franchise. There has to be a robust platform...."

    Not sure I'd call the Camry platform robust. As the president of IIHS said, "Toyota engineers have a lot of work to do to catch up with the competition," including your Optima!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNG7Nm9XDko
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • tundradweller1tundradweller1 Member Posts: 74
    Sure the quality ebbs and flows from all the manufacturers over the years.
    As I posted I have owned all domestic vehicles, (and almost all Japanese Motorcycles). :). After some researching it seems customer support from the import manufacturers and dealers is consistently better. The term "they all do that" is not the correct answer for someone having issues with their vehicle. To each his own indeed but personally I'm buying an import this time.
  • marcus216marcus216 Member Posts: 78
    I looked at every midsized sedan before I settled on the 2013 Accord EXL V6. What surprised me the most about the new models from Ford, Nissan, Toyota, Hyundai, Kia, and even GM were the interiors. Materials have been vastly upgraded from past generations. For example, the driver's seat in the 2013 Nissan Altima SL was the most comfortable seat I have ever experienced in any car. My Honda has a great seat also. I love the perforated, soft leather, and upgraded materials throughout the cabin. the Ford Fusion interior also compared well to many luxury sedans. I was quite impressed with the interiors of most of the mainstream family sedans.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    Congrats on your purchase!

    Yeah, I agree about the improved interiors.

    My 2008 Accord EXL is a very nice car, but when I test drove a 2013 Accord EXL it seemed very close to an Acura or Lexus to me....
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
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  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    Was using Toyota as an example. There has to be a robust platform so the "various companies" do not have to reinvent the wheel...

    Correction on the ES..... It is based on the new Avalon for 2013 All data in my statement was based on major automotive magazines.

    The point was about platform sharing. It gets a better vehicle to the consumer that otherwise would not be possible unless the platform is shared with more profitable models. Also, selling 300,000 Camryoptmaltmafusionassat's helps a lot!! :)
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    It's good to see Honda got its Mojo back with the '13 Accord, and apparently, the '13 Civic as well???
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    I like new Honda Accord as well. if it was available at the end of 2011, I would be driving one right now. It just has this X Factor of quality. I like the crisp lines of the exterior, I like the dash assembly with the 2 screens I like the IP gauge cluster, which is classic for the Accord 1 I can't figure out, is why Honda dozens have a competitive 100,000 mile powertrain warranty. That would have sealed the deal. I bet Honda would steal quite a few sales from Sonatas and Optima's if that was available.
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