Midsize Sedans 2.0

lilengineerboy · June 2007

don't give as much weight to JD Power as I do to Consumer Reports, because they report "problems per 100 vehicles.

Consumer Reports breaks the problems down further, so you can see the reliablilty rating for each car by categories such as Engine, Transmission, Body, Accesories, etc.

I personally (that means this is an opinion) feel the complete opposite as Consumer Reports uses self reported data from a subset of the population. If I was living in a vacuum and had no other source of information for a purchase decision, I would go with CR (they were great when picking appliances), put I *personally* don't have a lot of faith in their automotive reliability rankings.

jeffyscott · June 2007

I really don't care much about these IQS numbers, either.

However, CR has it's own problems, as well. Relying on self-reporting and evaluation of "significant problems" that may have occured as much as 12 months ago is just one.

I actually give the most weight to the expected costs. This can be determined by pricing identical extended warranties from a single vendor for each model. Edmunds also bases their predicted repair costs on this. The differences between models of mid-size sedans are usually quite small.

backy · June 2007

Um, that was last year. The latest report, which came out yesterday, shows Mazda in a lower position relative to other brands. Hard for someone who likes Mazda (which includes me) to see, but consider Mazda has released several new models in the past year. That may account at least partially for the relatively poor result for 2007. Same for Hyundai... with all the new models they have released in the past year, it is more difficult to maintain their high rating from the recent past.

urnews · June 2007

A Honda with "issues?" That even sounds odd. Would you care to elaborate? Nothing major, I trust. All cars, IMHO, have some issues, a squeak here, a rattle there, a bulb that burns out too soon. That sort of thing.

Oh I don't know. I bought a 2006 Civic which was totally redesigned that year and it has NOT been "even better". I have had quite a few un-Honda like issues so apparently you cannot automatically "bank" on Honda for that.

jeffyscott · June 2007

That 3 year study is potentially more useful to an extent, but think about what the numbers actually show. My wife's "un-dependable" VW would have 3 expected problems, while the super-duper dependable Mercury will have 1.5.

I don't know about anybody else, but a difference of 1.5 "problems" during the warranty period is not going to sway me one way or the other. So what this confirms (for me) is that "reliability" is, for the most part, a non-issue in choosing a mid-size sedan.

The typical range in expected repair costs of maybe $500 over 100,000 miles is also not going to influence my choice of midsize sedans.

Kirstie_H · June 2007

We're coming pretty close to on-topic, but if we could take the more general comments about how vehicles are rated to the dedicated Consumer Reports/JD Powers rankings discussion, it would be much appreciated.

akirby · June 2007

And that's the point I was about to make. Even the worst vehicle today is so much more reliable than the best car 10 years ago. Reliability really isn't the big issue it used to be except for maybe a few outlying vehicles.

captain2 · June 2007

those cars that have statistically proven to be 'better' in those reliability/residual value-cost to own studies will always top my list and after that it generally comes down to power and refinement under the hood, which generally is my true top priority.
This from my post 1724, and I thought it answered your priority question pretty directly.
More to the point is that, I probably don't buy the Accord or the Camry and lean towards the Altima (with that great V6 naturally). A car that does a relatively decent job holding its value (but not up to Camcord standards) and is admittedly short of Camcord type fit and finish - the redesigned 07 is a big improvement. Given that I believe that overall it falls short of Honda/Toyota then why is an Altima on the top of list? It's simple - experience - have put something in the neighborhood of 6-700k miles on my last 4 of them and not a one of them has ever had any problems, and that 3.5 V6 is outstanding. I did find the CVT disconcerting on the new Altima, but my wife loved it - it does make driving even less involving then even the 4 spd automatic in my current 3.5, so much so that I think that anybody that would even consider a stick will have no part of it.

orbit9090 · June 2007

>> jeffyscott says: 'reliability is, for the most part, a non-issue in choosing a mid-size sedan.'

Remind your family of that when your VW :lemon: leaves you stranded on the highway...
"Hey kids, sorry about your frostbite...but it's only a few more problems than a more reliable sedan would have had."

Even if the problems are minor, just be glad YOU have time to waste with the pompous VW dealership, and enjoy the rot-gut Max-Swill-House coffee.

captain2 · June 2007

Even the worst vehicle today is so much more reliable than the best car 10 years ago. Reliability really isn't the big issue it used to be except for maybe a few outlying vehicles.
agreed - if I keep up with routine maintainence, I expect at least 100k troublefree miles out of any vehicle I would buy although I will stay away from those cars that are seemingly overinfected with electronic doodads. BMW/MBs problems, IMO, have very little to do with anything other than overinfestation of technology, from an objective perspective - they both build great cars otherwise.

targettuning · June 2007

I'd be glad to even though a Civic doesn't qualify for this discussion not exactly being mid sized. I bought the car new in Nov 2005 with about 9 miles or so showing. On the drive home from the dealer I noticed a faint noise from the right rear suspension on some types of bumps. I blew it off because this was a Honda after all (our first). My wife took over regularly driving the car to work and I only fueled, washed, and maintained it driving it short distances for those jobs. While I did start to notice an increase in the severity of the noise by July 2006 even my wife who wouldn't notice if she was dragging the transmission for 1/2 mile (an overstatement to be sure)said "there is a noise in the car. I already knew a problem existed and researched for any Honda TSB's but didn't find one for this. I finally took it back to the selling dealer in late July where an inspection found not only was the right rear shock bone dry (all fluid leaked out) which is what I suspected but additionally the left side shock was leaking badly. Both were replaced under warranty BUT I had to take off a 1/2 day from work,wait around etc. That cleared up one noise but made things quiet enough I could hear another which was a "drone" from the engine at around 1500 RPM in high gear. Honda issued a TSB for this one much later and I got the fix which worked. Now, yet another noise, this one in the right front while hitting certain types of bumps has been identified as a faulty motor mount by Honda. This one is pending because I have not had the time to take it in for repair. Additionally, the interior plastic is very prone to scratches especially, as design would have it, near the armrests/door pulls where one is sure to blindly grasp to shut the door resulting in many scratches/scrapes there. But interior wise the worst problem by far is the fact the cloth upholstry material is wearing on the driver seat cushion bolster. The woven? in pattern has all but disappeared on a 3 x 2 inch or so patch where our butts slide on entering and leaving the car. Currently the car has around 8,700 miles and I feel while it has not had all the problems 2006 Civics CAN have there have been enough relatively minor problems to send me packing back to Hyundai. Scroll through the service bulletins for this year/model where at last count over a dozen exist and some are pretty "bad" e.g. about 7 ea. oil sealing bolts scattered around the engine that don't seal resulting in partial engine teardown for replacement. Power steering leaks, engine immobilizer problems resulting in no-start conditions etc. Nope whomever said reputation doesn't sell cars is wrong...it sold me a Honda. My first inclination was a 2006 Sonata but that is another story.

scape2 · June 2007

"Why can't an Accord owner/lover state he thinks the Accord is best in its class? Its not like its an outlandish statement."

Then why can't a Fusion/Sonata/Mazda owner state they think thier sedan is the best in its class?? This is not an "outlandish" statement either.. :sick:

scape2 · June 2007

"their "intelligent" decision on that fact then why does the Camry consistently outsell the Accord"

Same way I guess McDonalds sells more burgers than Burger King I guess..

backy · June 2007

More precisely...

* What is the sales per dealer? (Per-store sales is an important metric in the sales business. Toyota has more dealers than Honda.)

* How many are sold to fleets? (Many more Camrys are sold to fleets than Accords.)

goodegg · June 2007

lean towards the Altima

I thought I'd test drive the 07 Altima this weekend. I've only sat in it and played with the controls a bit, but I agree - what a nice ride.

I like it much more than the Maxima - what's up with that funky Maxima grill BTW?

I think the high end Altima cannibalizes the Maxima sales.

scape2 · June 2007

Lets try this one again..http://www.jdpower.com/press-releases/pressrelease.aspx?id=2007088

No comments? Looks like Ford is doing pretty darn well.. I'm going to have to keep this link around and spread the word. :shades:

goodegg · June 2007

I think the average age of the Camry is higher than the Accord's. The Accord is also a more athletic ride which probably appeals to a younger driver.

Both have the advantage of buyers walking on the lot, look at some colors, and saying "I'll take that one" more than most other makes.

goodegg · June 2007

Read many of the previous posts. You're late to the IQS party around here.

urnews · June 2007

An interesting post, target. Thanks for the info. I guess it illustrates that even Hondas can have problems. It's always been my contention that any make or model can have problems regardless of surveys or testings or ratings.

We also considered the Hyundai Sonata but one dealer in our town owns the franchises for Hyundai, Mazda, Honda and Nissan while Sherwood Ford, Lincoln, Mercury has a sterling reputation and has been excellent to deal with. We own a 1997 Thunderbird and a 2000 Focus station wagon in addition to the 2007 Fusion.

Eventually, all cars end up going back to the dealer for something, even if it is just oil changes or tire rotations. The dealer's excellent reputation was a big factor in our purchase of a Fusion. The bold, distinctive styling also played a large part.

We've only had the car six months and 3,420 miles but, so far (knock on wood) it's yet to have a single squeak, rattle or thump. There has been zero recalls and not a single Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) has applied to our car. We sure hope this trend continues for the years to come.

kdshapiro · June 2007

Any car can have problems. You take your chances. See this post as an example of the irony of it all.

bdkinnh, "BMW 5-Series Sedans" #11855, 6 Jun 2007 10:08 am

captain2 · June 2007

I believe it is currently possible to get a Maxima cheaper than a well optioned V6 Altima where the stickers can get above $30k pretty easily. Talk about 'cannibalization'!
While I pretty much stay away from subjective styling issues - to me, it is one 'pretty' car.

pulgo · June 2007

What do you think about the new Nissan Sentra 2007?

It has the same interior volume as the 2007 Accord (within 1 cubic ft).

I has a better price, better fuel economy, great ride, less prestige and unknown reliability and probably lower resale value.

Safety wise it's got 6 airbags, ABS, EBD, etc, etc, even tire pressure monitors.

lilengineerboy · June 2007

Safety wise it's got 6 airbags, ABS, EBD, etc, etc, even tire pressure monitors

Yeah but they are all optional (at least ABS/EBD) and TPM is going to be standard for everyone in the next 2 years as a federal mandate, IIRC.

pulgo · June 2007

Here in Canada you can't get one without ABS and EBD.

captain2 · June 2007

Any car can have problems
kd - of course, and likely in direct correlation to the the complexities of the car in the first place. BMWs problem is not that they don't build the best cars in the world, it is more related to the systems they build into those cars, required to make them that way.
Murphy's law - the more complicated anything is, the more likely it is to break - A Toyota Avalon should never be as reliable as a Corolla, a Lincoln MKZ should never be as reliable as a Fusion etc etc.. There are exceptions to all 'rules', of course - but as a generality, something that is true in a whole lot more things than just cars?

thegraduate · June 2007

"Why can't an Accord owner/lover state he thinks the Accord is best in its class? Its not like its an outlandish statement."

Then why can't a Fusion/Sonata/Mazda owner state they think thier sedan is the best in its class?? This is not an "outlandish" statement either..

Uhh, they can last I checked

. We each buy our own "best-in-class."

waygrabow · June 2007

Let's say that the "Acme Auto Company" produces a competent mid-size sedan with a 225 HP engine. Hypothetically, Acme has new technology which will allow it to produce a more efficient engine. They can either re-engineer the engine to produce 50 more horsepower with the present gas mileage or keep the 225 horsepower and increase average mileage by 5 mpg. Which alternative would interest you more as a potential Acme-brand buyer?

thegraduate · June 2007

To me? The mileage. I drive a 166 hp car and a 130 hp car. 225 would be excess to me, much less 275!

dudleyr · June 2007

The Sentra is quite roomy, but it is 6 cuft less than an Accord. Honda reports different numbers for sunroof models and that lowers it closer to the Sentra.

dudleyr · June 2007

No question the mileage. 225 is way more than enough. Anything more is really just about bragging rights, not driveability.

backy · June 2007

Personally I would not buy a Sentra based on its looks alone. I think the Versa is a much better value (and also has mid-sized interior room, albeit barely), and there are other compacts-with-midsized-interiors and even bona fide midsized (even full-sized) cars that would cost less than a Sentra, including Mazda6i, Optima, Sonata and sometimes (depending on incentives) Fusion and Milan. So, no thanks on the Sentra.

elroy5 · June 2007

Let's say that the "Acme Auto Company" produces a competent mid-size sedan with a 225 HP engine. Hypothetically, Acme has new technology which will allow it to produce a more efficient engine. They can either re-engineer the engine to produce 50 more horsepower with the present gas mileage or keep the 225 horsepower and increase average mileage by 5 mpg. Which alternative would interest you more as a potential Acme-brand buyer?

This did actually come into play in my case. My old car (same make and model) was smaller and lighter, and a 4cyl was the only option. 140hp was adequate most of the time (could have used more power on the highway). 12 years later the car had grown considerably and a V6 was available. The fact that I could get 100 more hp, and still get the same mileage as the old car, made it a no-brainer for my driving style. I picked the extra power, thegrad picked the mileage. We both got what we wanted, so it's all good.

thegraduate · June 2007

This did actually come into play in my case. My old car (same make and model) was smaller and lighter, and a 4cyl was the only option. 140hp was adequate most of the time (could have used more power on the highway). 12 years later the car had grown considerably and a V6 was available. The fact that I could get 100 more hp, and still get the same mileage as the old car, made it a no-brainer for my driving style. I picked the extra power, thegrad picked the mileage. We both got what we wanted, so it's all good.

Bingo. We each picked what suited us.

The only time I ever need more power in my 130 hp '96 Accord is passing above 60 MPH. Around town, it is perfectly adequate. In my 166 hp '06, I've never "needed" more. It's so quiet relative to my 96, I don't mind winding it up to 5,500 RPM if I really feel compelled to take off.

I got better power AND better mileage!

(although 70-80 horsepower less than elroy). My highway mileage is 8 MPG better in my new car thanks to iVtec and a 5-speed Auto!

jd10013 · June 2007

Bingo. We each picked what suited us.

and thats what it all boils down to. Anybody who wants to proclaim any car the best nees to keep in mind, they are in a pretty small group. Even the best selling midsize sedan (the camry) only has about 15% of the midsize market. So, for every 100 people who buy a midsize sedan, 85% don't think the camry is the best.

elroy5 · June 2007

15% thought the Camry was the best value, and actually bought one. Some people think the Camry is the class leader, but aren't willing to pay it's price (so they buy something else). Don't you think, if all midsize cars were the same price, the Camry would get a higher percentage of buyers? I would still not buy a Camry, but I think many people would. I think the Accord would also get a higher percentage, if you could get one for the same price as say, a Malibu.

thegraduate · June 2007

But, part of the "class-leader" part comes from its price. If not, it wouldn't be limited to the class (a.k.a. Acura TL, Lexus ES350, etc...)

Price has to be included in my opinion, if not, we blur the "class" issue.

scape2 · June 2007

Got to ride in the Milan that was modified. I know some here debate as to whether this guy knows what he is doing. The car is definitely faster than a factory Milan v6. The power is immediate, the engine grabs and seems to spin up quicker I asked him if he ever dyno'd the car and he plans on it. Once again, its a Milan V6 Premier with all the options. He added full dual exhaust, intake air system, chipped it, some lighter performance wheels/tires. The car was not a rip roaring V8. I have test driven a Camry V6, I believe this car would give the Camry a good run for its money.. Is it all worth it? I don't know?? He does this for fun and as a hobby.

elroy5 · June 2007

When price comes into the equation, we are talking about "best value", not "class leader". Two totally different things. "Class leader" means the highest selling car, and the car regarded as the best car in it's particular class, irrespective of price. If the Altima comes out with a new special edition that is more expensive than the highest priced Camry, does that mean it's the new class leader? Not by my definition, because it's not out selling the Camry. Sure, the "Class leader" will usually fetch a higher price, but that's not why it's a class leader.

thegraduate · June 2007

Well, I've heard it somewhere before, but getting into "best-in-class" can mean a lot of things.

I mean, the guy who had a 4.0 GPA looks like the best in class, while in fact, the guy with a 3.5 GPA and lots of extra-curriculars and out-of-class work experience gets the job done better. (showing my age here!)

I say that in a roundabout way to say, it may be instinctive to say the car with the best numbers is tops, while in fact, when it comes to getting the job done, others do it better, having fun along the way (just like in school!).

I think (again "I") that best-in-class is still individual.

mz6greyghost · June 2007

Power. Hands down.

Most automakers have done this for years. Bigger, revised versions of engines with more power and the same (or improved) fuel economy.

jeffyscott · June 2007

When price comes into the equation, we are talking about "best value", not "class leader". Two totally different things. "Class leader" means the highest selling car, and the car regarded as the best car in it's particular class, irrespective of price.

You say it is the "highest selling car" and "regarded as the best". The highest selling car can be easily defined, but is not always going to be "regarded as best". If it is not, then which is the "class leader"?

If price does not matter, then maybe we need to consider whether midsize sedans like the Audi S6 ($72,000) or BMW M5 ($83,000) out-class cars like the Camry and Accord.

baggs32 · June 2007

If price does not matter, then maybe we need to consider whether midsize sedans like the Audi S6 ($72,000) or BMW M5 ($83,000) out-class cars like the Camry and Accord.

That depends on other limitations of the class specifications. If you include those cars above then you are including mid-sized luxury sedans which can be, and often are, considered to be in another class themselves.

Those lines can be pretty blurred though. Often when mags do comparos they make up classes that we don't often realize are even there. Things like V6 powered AWD mid-sized sedans under $30k. That's a small group, but it can be a "class".

I see your point and also see how this line of discussion could end up in an endless loop! :surprise:

lilengineerboy · June 2007

Is it all worth it? I don't know?? He does this for fun and as a hobby.

Oh its definitely not worth it, but man, its fun.

I'm glad he is happy with his mods and that they woke up his ride

zzzoom6 · June 2007

It would depend on how the car handled...no point in having a more powerful car if handling isn't very sharp unless going fast in a straight line is all a person is after. If I could get around 20mpg city, 25+ hwy (+/- 2mpg) like I am now, I'd take the more powerful one. But I'm not too sure about the track-record of this Acme sales company...seems they sold Wild E Cayote some pretty shoddy products.

thegraduate · June 2007

But I'm not too sure about the track-record of this Acme sales company...seems they sold Wild E Cayote some pretty shoddy products.

Nah, I'm pretty sure it was just operator error. He should have paid more attention to what he was doing and spent less time painting those "uh oh" signs for when he fell off a cliff.

baggs32 · June 2007

Nah, I'm pretty sure it was just operator error.

But his business card said he was a "Super Genius".

waygrabow · June 2007

I realize that there is no "right" answer to this question; just wanted to know how others view this. I had a 220 hp SHO which was tested to 140 mph. It would also accelerate rapidly on an on-ramp and, with the 5-speed, pass quickly at highway speeds. Thus, 220 hp seemed to be as much, or more, power than I would ever need. Some recent comments have indicated that more power is needed to be "competitive"; just wanted to know how other feel.

jd10013 · June 2007

I don't think it would make that big a difference. theese are cars that fetch a pretty good price, and are not entry level, first time buyer cars. people (for the most part) who shop for midsize cars can afford a camry, or accord, or altima......if they want one, and think its worth it.

urnews · June 2007

I realize that there is no "right" answer to this question;

The correct answer is there is no correct answer; just as you have stated. Our 2007 SEL AWD 3.0-liter V6 is rated at 221 horsepower. The V6s in Camrys, Accords, Auras, Sonatas, Altimas are rated higher, I believe.

We find that the Fusion is fast enough, powerful enough for our needs but the gas mileage is really terrible, 14.8 mpg in all-city driving. In retrospect, the 160-horsepower I4 engine would have been adequate for the type of driving we do, 95 percent in-city travel with only two or three highway trips a year.

It will be interesting to read other forum members comments on how much horsepower (get up and go) is enough.

elroy5 · June 2007

I look at it this way. As long as I can get mid 20s mpg in town, and high 20s on the highway, I'll take all the power I can get. I can't imagine having too much power. That's like having too much money, there is no such thing IMO.

There are luxury cars with a lot more hp (400 and more), and I don't think any of the owners are complaining that they have too much power. I would not complain either.

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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