Midsize Sedans 2.0

jaxs1 · May 2013

Few people complain about idle noise levels on any modern family sedan. The measurement is pretty meaningless.
Pointing to decibel levels and saying a sound meter says it's quiet, so that overrules human perception of the sound levels is not a good argument.
I don't care what a sound meter from Car and Driver reads if it sounds loud to me.
Generally, people who complain about noise complain about either noise on full throttle or cruising down the highway.
It's certainly possible that the Sport has less sound insulation or is missing ANC anyway. It also has a dual exhaust that may not be as quiet as other Accords to give it a sportier exhaust note. Tires are not always the sole source of noise.

[Deleted User] · May 2013

It was the Accord EX-L. It has 17" rims/tires. The Mazda was the GT with 19"s.

Also, if you want 16" base model wheels I am certain that someone would swap you for your 18 " alloys for free. Certain.

Also, I provided both references from two different tests.

explorerx4 · May 2013

My Fusion has a laminated windshield which helps cut down on wind noise.
Over the weekend, I was cleaning my sisters Prius V and one thing that stuck me was how unsubstantial the outside mirrors are although they do have power and I believe they are heated.
Of course a Prius is about lightness, so I'm sure that plays into it.
The Fusion has some really nice side mirrors that include turn signals, puddle lamps and a wide angle sub mirror built in, along with the power adjustment and heat.
I see that next year Intelligent Access is going to be available on the SE model.
Wanted to try a tank of premium gas, but won't be able to go through the whole tank before my trip to Michigan, about 1600 miles, mid next month.

[Deleted User] · May 2013

Sorry to be "Mr reply" but....I had my windows tinted 2 months ago, and the very first thing I noticed (other than it being dark) was how quiet the car became. I was totally surprised and wondered why that fact isn't advertised by the shop who installed it.

Laminated windows in the Fusion are a good, low weight way to quell the outside noise, and since we have all been talking about road noise, I would be remiss in not mentioning to potential buyers and current owners that a quieter and more private cabin is only $200 away!

serenity185 · May 2013

Road noise is pretty low on my criteria when looking at cars, but I'm sure pretty just about all of the cars in this class are sufficiently quiet. It's all relative, too- for example, people keep talking about how loud Hondas are, but I find my 2007 Accord to be fairly quiet in areas I care about (e.g. the engine noise is low and the road noise is moderate- I find engine noise more offensive than road noise if it's an unrefined engine). Of course, I came from a Dodge Neon.

If the new Mazda 6 does in fact have the noisiest interior in its class, it's not really a surprise since they could think the noise keeps the driver more connected (they are the "Zoom, zoom" company). I actually prefer Mazda's approach of keeping the car lighter and more efficient, even if it's not Fusion or Malibu quiet. Not to say that they can't add more sound deadening, but I don't think any car in this class is without flaws.

jaxs1 · May 2013

If you swap to 16s or 17s on a car that was setup from the factory to run on 19's, there may be issues with various systems in the car (suspension, stability control etc.).

jaxs1 · May 2013

Every car I looked at does have some flaws.
Honda Accord, ridiculous 1 piece folding rear seat. Afterthought-looking center touch screen on EX-L models that has already needed a service campaign to fix issues. Minor CVT issues on 4 cylinder. Minor automatic transmission issues on V6.
Altima has some quality control issues and drivability complaints on 4 cylinder models.
Mazda 6 noisy, undersized nav screen and uses second rate TomTom maps and routing. Have to get nav if you want push start. No rear cam without nav.
Chevy Malibu very uncompetitive mpg for what it is even with e-Assist, small back seat, bad styling, no push start available. Quietness is all it seems to have going for it. Pricing not low enough to overlook shortcomings.
2013 Ford Fusion requires overpriced Titanium edition to get push start.
Camry super bland exterior, cluttered truck-like dashboard, cheap seats, hellish small overlap crash test results.
Subarus require top trim levels and even then you still have to spend thousands more on mandatory option packages to get push start.

tundradweller1 · May 2013

Every 2014 Mazda 6 has push button start.
Back up cam is on every model with AT.

suydam · May 2013

You are correct that each car has pluses and minuses. But different people perceive them differently as well. The 1-fold rear seat on the Accord is a non-issue for me as my second car is a hatchback. The EX-L touch screen is one of the car's biggest pluses for me! So easy to use and so intuitive! On the other hand, you can't get Homelink garage transmitter on any 4 cylinder Accord. Some people dont like that you can't get remote start either. Minus on the Altima for me was no power passenger seat, but it does have remote start.Road noise would be an issue on the Mazda although I really like them.

What isn't an issue is that these are all great cars that are well-made and reliable. They do drive somewhat differently. So it's really a matter of how each car appeals to your driving style and the combination of features that matter most.

jaxs1 · May 2013

I mean push start with smart entry. Push start without smart entry is kind of pointless to me since you still have to take the key out to open the door.

jaxs1 · May 2013

You can get remote start on an Accord as a dealer accessory. The issue with this besides the cost, is that if doesn't integrate with the key fob that works with smart entry. So, you have to carry 2 key fobs with you if you have an EX or above.

akirby · May 2013

2014 Fusion will offer intelligent access and push button start on SE models.

[Deleted User] · May 2013

The Optima EX , on par with the Fusion SE, does have start button and an intelligent key fob. It also has a refrigerated glove box for drinks on trips, leather, dual exhaust, fog lights, zebrano wood accents, 200 HP, 17" alloys, satellite radio, USB ports, I-pod aux port, two power ports, MP3 support, bluetooth, and 100,000 mile powertrain (5/60 bumper to bumper) plus free oil changes for life. All this is in just the base EX. $24,260 sticker. $21,880 was my negotiated real price.
Find another car with that much content for that price!!!! All I wish it had was a standard backup camera and a height adjust on the passenger seat.

suydam · May 2013

It's what matters to you. I love, love, the backup camera. Accord has most of those on EX-L, no refrigerated glove box though. Not sure I would want that anyway.

Kirstie_H · May 2013

A reporter seeks to interview:
1. a husband/wife team who just bought a car together
2. a car salesperson who has sold a car to a memorable husband/wife team
If you have a story to share, please email PR@edmunds.com no later than Thursday, May 30, 2013 and include your daytime contact information.

[Deleted User] · May 2013

Yeah, on the refrigerated glove box, I forgot I had it until I was looking for a scraper yesterday. It's just a glorified A/C vent and can be closed.

vinwrongengine · May 2013

KIA vin indicates timing chain but timing belt installed

My engine blew up without warning. The Timing Belt broke. :sick:

The problem is that when I bought the vehicle I intentionally went to the Auto Parts store to purchase a timing belt set for my KIA. But the Auto Parts store could not sell me a Timing Belt set because the car had a Timing Chain.

Later I'm driving along and the engine blows up.

I rechecked the VIN and it does indicate a Timing Chain. But when the mechanic pulled the engine apart, it had an old broken timing Belt.

I suggest that ALL auto mechanics everywhere contact their KIA customers to have them bring in their vehicle for a quick check.

The 8th digit of the VIN number is a 6 for a timing Chain, and the left side of the motor looking in under the hood has a plastic cover that can be opened to see if there is a chain or belt for that engine.

If the VIN indicates a timing chain, and a belt is installed, then you can get class action suit information at:

http://kiaenginewrong.pbworks.com

So based upon all this, I have mixed feelings.

The car drives great and has otherwise been a good car. But that the VIN prevented me from getting the correct information I needed to do scheduled maintenance is a major issue.

If you have a KIA, any model, I suggest you or a mechanic visually sighting the timing chain before trusting that the engine has a chain instead of a belt. Don't let your mechanic talk you out of it, I did and now my engine is blown up. Vehicle data is usually reliable, but in this case KIA made a huge mistake by installing a cheaper engine without changing the VIN number accordingly.

This is easy for a mechanic or even yourself to do in less than 5 minutes. The cover comes loose with a couple of bolts. Don't let anything accidentally slip into the timing belt housing.

backy · May 2013

What year is your Optima? Optimas since at least the 2006.5 MY have used the Hyundai-designed Theta engine family, which all have timing chains.

[Deleted User] · May 2013

What? Installing a cheaper engine? What year Kia? What model? Kia has been making Optima's since 2000.
We deal with current mid size sedans here.

This is the incorrect forum for class action suits, but if there is a problem with a specific vehicle please post that information.

explorerx4 · May 2013

Notice the post reads 'when I bought' they went to get the timing belt.
Sounds like it was not bought new, so someone could have put in a non original engine.
Personally, I don't the suit going anywhere, but good luck.

[Deleted User] · May 2013

It almost sounds like the belt was part of an options group. "Well, you can have the car, but the timing belt is part of the "preferred my car to run group", which also includes an alternator & a battery. $2500. LMAO. Yes I am silly.

stygz2 · May 2013

What is the difference between the leatherette on the touring vs the leather on the grand touring? I was looking at a 2013 Honda Accord EX-L and faintly remembered the leather being softer feeling.

I am concidering the Accord EX-L or the Mazda 6 touring. There is a big price difference on the two though. I am looking at about invoice less military rebate on the Mazda 6 (about 23100) vs the Honda EX-L 4 cyl (about 28295 including military rebate). The Honda is asking pretty much retail but is offering me 13500 for my impreza which KBB for 10500.

I like both cars. The honda does not offer black leather on the white exterior while the Mazda does. I like the 60/40 split rear seat on the mazda. Which leaves me choosing a The Honda dealer is only up the street from me while the Mazda is about a 35 minute drive. I know the the Honda has alot of safety features the Mazda does not (or you have to pay extra for) such as radar type cruise control, lane departure.

[Deleted User] · May 2013

Congrats on your two choices, both excellent.

The EX-L Accord is the top of the line trim level for a 4 cylinder. That is why the price is much higher.

You can compare the Accord Sport, and that gets you 18" rims plus dual exhaust. It includes the backup camera of course, but not the second lower screen. It stickers at around $23 to $26, and is more of an apples-to apples comparison to the Mazda 6 Touring with the leatherette.

Now, are you going for an auto trans? Because the Accord has a CVT, but the Mazda has a conventional 6 speed automatic.

I would drive both, and I don't mean around the block. I mean take them both home for an extended test drive. That will help you break your deadlock on choosing I believe.
Good luck!

stygz2 · May 2013

I have test driven both cars. Either transmission is fine with me. Obviously I see most passenger cars going CVT in the future and I dont have a problem with it. I have yet to do an extended test drive. The Honda dealer did offer me one though. I do note the honda felt really nice going over RR tracks. It felt like a luxury car. The Honda dealer quoted me a payment of 425. I went home and ran the figures myself and got a payment of 407. I wonder what the difference of payment was for? Gap insurance or ?. I may have to have them email me the figures. I can really see the Accord being a great road trip car comfortable, nice stereo and seemed to be a pleasure to drive. Funny the dealer was sticking with the MSRP but over offering my trade. It seems with those figures I may be able to get them to throw in 2 oil/ tire rotations and maybe a spoiler.

[Deleted User] · May 2013

I will get right to the point. I was a buyer for a bank that purchased auto loans. (Like Ford Motor Credit, etc). Here is what the dealer is doing.

They are creating a cash down payment of $3000. so, your deal is as follows:

2013 Honda Accord EX-L

$28,295 (after military discount)
13,500 (for your trade
- 10,500 (you owe)
= 3000 down payment
$28295
-3000
=25,295

+ doc prep, tags, taxes,

A bank will only lend so much on a car. the max is 125% of dealer invoice (or NADA book value if the car is used). So, they give you $3000 more than your trade is worth to create a down payment so the bank will buy the deal with favorable terms.

The dealer also will want a $250 "doc prep" fee, $50 for tags, and don't forget the taxes. The $25 payment discrepancy is due to those fees.

This is only 1 scenario based on info you provided. If you are upside down on your trade they could be trying to pay it off so they can put you in a new car....and that is why you pay MSRP. Banks do NOT like being upside down on a deal any more than you do.

stygz2 · May 2013

That is close to my scenerio

28795
599 dealer fee
50 misc tag fees
960 approximate ad valor tax (No sales tax we call it ad valor tax in Georgia)
=30404

13500 Trade
8500 owe
=5000 equity

1500 down
500 military
=2000

30404-7000=23404 financed @1.9x60mo = $409 month

Dealer said it would be $425 a month. The dealer must be trying to work in something else? Maybe some paint and interior protectant?

I may concider a Altima 2.5 SL. I like the Bose stereo, Xenon headlights, and remote start all for less than the Accord. But no lane watch.

[Deleted User] · May 2013

Did they quote you like 1.9%, but it is actually 1.99% ? That's a common variance. They are trying to get your business and we are programmed to think of gas (for example ) as costing $3.65, but it is actually 3.6599, or $3.66.

Look over the contract, and make sure all the number jive. Enjoy your new car. I am outta here!

explorerx4 · May 2013

off the top of my head 18 time 60 is about $1100, $1000 before interest, so it's worth looking into.

stygz2 · May 2013

I am thinking either some sort of maint plan. Or the dealer lists a few charges such as $399 for nitrogen tire fill, $xxx for paint sealant, $xxx for fabric interior protectant. I will swing by dealer when they are closed and see if those misc charges listed on the dealers window sticker add up to $1000. I asked the salesman early upon looking at the accord if those charges are optional. I think he said that stuff has already been done to the car. $399 for nitrogen is way out of line......

[Deleted User] · May 2013

My Neighborhood Shell will inflate with Nitrogen for $0.00. Free. Also, $599 doc prep is high. Tell them $250.

otis12 · June 2013

No heated steering wheel on the Grand Touring? That a big omission for me. Even the 2014 Forte EX comes with one.

suydam · June 2013

Really?

igozoomzoom · June 2013

Have you tried any other Honda dealers to see what they can do? Are you in North Georgia (if so, what area, I may be able to suggest another Honda dealer and I also know a great Mazda sales guy on this side of town....got my '12 CX-9 from him last November)!

BTW, were you already familiar with our new Title Ad Valorem Tax (TAVT, in lieu of Sales Tax)? Since I bought my CX-9 in 2012, I had the option to 'opt in' to the TAVT when it went into effect in March of this year. The 6% Sales Tax I paid when I bought the CX-9 was applied toward the 6.5% TAVT, so I had to pay about $80 to get in the program. And the awesome part is no more Ad Valorem Tax to pay each year with my tag (the so-called "Birthday Tax"). If I keep my CX-9 for 5yrs, it will save me over $2k compared to the previous way we were taxed!

backy · June 2013

If it's cold enough that I'd need a heated steering wheel, it's cold enough to wear driving gloves.

[Deleted User] · June 2013

In GA (and here in VA), a heated steering wheel might be a nice touch, but it isn't necessary. My car is warmed up in less than 5 mins. Really, by the time I get to the main road, warm air is flowing over my hands. Also, I actually keep gloves in the glove box. It's hard to think of cold right now. It is already 85 here at 10:44 AM. It was scorching hot yesterday. BTW, The Optima climate controls are awesome.

I get it that it is a nice feature to have.

dudleyr · June 2013

don't get the heated steering wheel either. If it is cold enough that my hands are cold I have gloves on going to the car. Do I then take them off so that I can feel the heated steering wheel? The car will be warm in 5 minutes even in very cold temps, so what good does the steering wheel do then.

Heated seats I can kind of see because they seem to relax your muscles a little.

scwmcan · June 2013

I don't get the heated steering wheel being a deal breaker, I guess it could be a luxury that you enjoy, but even living in Canada I don't really see that it is a necessity, never had one my self though so maybe if I did I would feel differently ( as I have wound up feeling about other things that I never had on a car before). I do really like heated seats , especially on my diesel smart, the car takes longer to warm up, and in really cold weather may not put out a lot of heat ( in city traffic at least, most of my driving is highway so mine seems to do well, others have mentioned this though), so like an electric car it is an efficient way to warm the driver. Even at that the steering wheel is never so cold that I feel the need for it to be heated, and I normally don't wear gloves either.

[Deleted User] · June 2013

You have a diesel Smart? Please tell me you live in Toronto! I see a lot of Smart cars downtown in DC, and there is even a car sharing business called Car 2 Go where Smart cars are rented and unlocked by an i-phone, and the cars are parked all over the GWU/Foggy Bottom area.

Do you also have a mid size sedan?

scwmcan · June 2013

I live in the niagara region ( close to Toronto but not in it thankfully). No midsized sedan at the moment currently have a Matrix and a Mazda3 in addition to the smart, last midsized sedan I had was a Subaru Legacy.

[Deleted User] · June 2013

Does your Diesel Smart have the 800 cc 3 cyl? If so, then you are a very, very patient man! It has 54 hp, right?

BTW, My family is from Buffalo! It is gorgeous up there on the Canadian side!
I loved going up to Buffalo to visit, then across the Peace Bridge at Fort Erie and taking Niagara Parkway to the falls. I asked my wife to marry me at Niagara on the Lake!!!

Anyway, if you were going to buy a mid size sedan by this fall (so the Mazda Diesel will be available as a choice), which one would you buy?

crkyolfrt · June 2013

Is your freezer at home set at at least 0¼ (cold enough to keep ice cream relatively hard)? But before you try this test, set the freezer for -30. Wait a few hours for it to go down in temp. That is what the interior of a car can be in many parts of Cda, before the sun rises on a night that was -35 give or take. Now.. grab your gloves for an interesting little test. Have one piece of something that resembles a steering wheel...maybe a plastic broom handle? How about a pc of 1.5" ABS black drain pipe from that last plumbing repair? Have one pc in the freezer prechilled. Have another that was wrapped in an electric blanket. Put your hands in the freezer for a few minutes holding onto the prechilled pipe. Now try it with the prewarmed one. You will immediately feel the difference. It's called temperature conduction.

Those who live where they have winter, and think they know what cold is, really don't have a clue unless they have lived the extremes. Even those who live in and around the Great Lakes, Toronto/ Niagara/ Buffalo etc are usually a full 20¼+ warmer than just 3 to 5 hours north. So 0¼ in Toronto...a really cold night...is easily -20 to -25 0¼ in North Bay. And believe me, the car interior does not warm up in only 5 minutes. Even cars with known good heaters, can take 20 to 25 min to warm enough that you only then consider unzipping your coat. With many commutes, this is long after you have already arrived at work.

As another example, if you have ever ridden a bike (motorcycle) in the spring or fall, when the temp is a relatively balmy 40¼ and holding onto the bars with your best and warmest gloves...after only 20 minutes, you'll be planning to install a pair of grip heaters as one of your must do projects.

Think snowmobiles if bikes aren't your thing...ya...heated grips work..

Believe me, there's a place in the world for heated steering wheels. If you are young and vibrant (with great blood circulation still in your extremities) or if you live where you think cold is 10¼ then you probably can't really relate. So don't order a heated wheel.

suydam · June 2013

We hear you. I didn't even know there was such a thing as heated steering wheels until I test drove the new Nissan Altima. Of course I don't know about engine heaters in the extreme north either. For those of us south of those regions, heated seats are a must for snowy winters but that's about it. I thought that a heated steering wheel would be nice but not a reason to buy or not buy the Altima all by itself. And in fact we got the Accord, which doesn't have that feature or the remote start, which would also be nice but not necessary for me.

dudleyr · June 2013

I live is South Dakota and we also have -35 temps. When I drove my Accord home from the dealer the temp was -15 F (bought it in Bismarck ND). Still never felt the need for a heated steering wheel. When it is that cold I am wearing gloves. I can honestly say that I have never thought "this steering wheel feels cold I wish it were warmer." Plain and simply a non issue.

I realize others may feel differently.

suydam · June 2013

Though maybe it's like the backup camera. I never had one before, so I never felt the need for one. Now that I have it, it's a must!

[Deleted User] · June 2013

I remember the blizzard of 77 in Buffalo. My father dug out a tunnel (almost) to the then brand new '78 Trail-duster, and we left at 4PM on the 29th. At the toll plaza leaving Buffalo, which was closed except for emergency vehicles My dad talked to the cop and they let us follow a snow plow for 60 miles. He had a way with words, plus the cop liked the truck and thought it would make it.

Here is an excerpt from the National Weather Service about that fateful storm the day before we left:
DURING THE MORNING, THE TEMPERATURE ROSE RAPIDLY FROM FIVE DEGREES AT
MIDNIGHT TO 26 DEGREES AT 11 AM. AT 11:35 AM, THE FRONT PASSED THROUGH
THE BUFFALO AIRPORT. IN A SHORT TIME, THE VISIBILITY DROPPED FROM 3/4
MILE TO ZERO AND THE WIND SHIFTED AND INCREASED TO SOUTHWEST AT 29
MPH WITH GUSTS TO 49 MPH. THE TEMPERATURE FELL 26 DEGREES TO ZERO IN
JUST OVER FOUR HOURS. THE BLIZZARD REACHED ITS WORST SEVERITY DURING
THE LATE AFTERNOON AS WINDS AT THE BUFFALO AIRPORT AVERAGED 46 MPH
AND GUSTED TO 69 MPH. GUSTS OF 75 MPH WERE RECORDED AT THE NIAGARA
FALLS AIRPORT. WIND CHILLS REACHED FIFTY TO SIXTY DEGREES BELOW ZERO.

THOUSANDS WERE STRANDED IN OFFICE BUILDINGS, SCHOOLS, POLICE
STATIONS, FIRE HALLS, AND FACTORIES. CARS WERE STALLED EVERYWHERE AND
ROADS BECAME IMPASSABLE. WHEN A FIRE BROKE OUT ON WHITNEY PLACE, FIRE
FIGHTING EQUIPMENT WAS UNABLE TO GET THROUGH. SIX HOMES WERE
COMPLETELY DESTROYED AND FIFTY PEOPLE WERE LEFT HOMELESS. NEARLY ALL
TRANSPORTATION IN AND OUT OF BUFFALO STOPPED.

It isn't just the cold that gets you Gimmee! Also, I bet you had to walk to school 10 miles uphill, both directions! Lol.

crkyolfrt · June 2013

Also, I bet you had to walk to school 10 miles uphill, both directions! Lol.

haha, actually it was 1 mile each way.. (1/4 mi of it a substantial hill)...'course that was only one of the ways, lol
Ahh childhood...back in the good 'ol days were you had to watch where you stepped for fear of big black plops with berry seeds in it..
And skitters the size of hummin' birds...ok, that last one was an exaggeration

edit- btw, I remember that blizzard too. I had forgotten the year, but that puts me in TO at the time delivering mail by foot. I remember simply not being able to get up to one of the doors of a house for snow...exhausted..was about 7 at night and was delivering in the dark...and said that's it I had enough. Tried to take the undelivered mail back to the PO but it was close so took it home and delivered it next work day. Got in shyte for that...not suppose to take it home..They have lock boxes that you use for dropping or picking up new route mail while enroute...problem was, I couldn't FIND it! I knew where it was supposed to be though..

Ya, that was a big storm...last one anywhere near (not as bad tho) the severity up here was back in 95 or 96? Got over 3' of snow in less than about 6 or 7 hours..
my mid-sized sedan just looked like a rolling hump of snow under it..

[Deleted User] · June 2013

My father was a car guy too. That's how we ended up in Buffalo during a blizzard at the end of January! My mom begged him not to go, but he had brought home that new truck and the only true test (by his standards) was for it to survive winter in Buffalo. I am glad we went. Very memorable for a 7 year old. To this day, nothing here in DC has ever accumulated even 1/4 of the snow they get up there.

Anyone have any snow stories with mid size sedans? (trying to get back on topic). Has anyone purchased a new sedan withing the last week?

dudleyr · June 2013

Plenty of snow stories with my midsized sedans. 4 snow tires does amazing things on a FWD sedan. If the roads are open I have no problems. Up here they have steel gates they lower across the interstate so it is easy to close the roads, and they do it 2 or 3 times a winter.

[Deleted User] · June 2013

I have looked at snow tires many times on the tire rack, and with manly names like "Blizzak" and "Sottozero" I can't help checking them out when fall rolls around. I am skeptical that they really work as advertised. The tread blocks hardly seem any different from any normal tire.

So, what is it that makes winter tires tick?

stickguy · June 2013

usually the tread blocks have more sipes (sp?) for better ice grip. And a different tread compound.

and they really do work.

No, not like the old 1960s Big chunky block snow tires.

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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