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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    I'm relatively sure it is a function of engine design and balance and engineering expertise, is probably going to need overhead cams,

    The DT 3.0 is an overhead cam motor. While I think you have the right idea of improving breathing at high RPM, I think your mental model of how variable valve timing technologies work is a little skewed.
    The i-VTEC in the Accord operates only on the intake. There is a low and high RPM mode, and some component in the rollers allows for additional variation (which is different then the double cam version which allows the cam to operate 25 degrees out of phase). This second system is similar to Toyota's VVTL-I which controls both lift and duration.
    The Porsche system (vario-cam) I believe primarily affects cam timing with respect to when the valves open, but not the lift and duration. I am ohly familiar with the earlier versions of Vario-cam so its very possible and likely they have modified their system as well.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Posts: 1,230
    The Altima will rev freely and quickly right up to redline so much so that you almost have to be careful not to bounce off the rev limiter - the Fusion/6, well, you end up just kinda gritting your teeth as the engine strains to meet your demands, the engine is much louder and feels strained.

    I will not put down the VQ in any way, shape or form, since I agree it's a great engine, but the V6 in my 6, IMO, may be louder (due to less sound-deadening), but it's NEVER felt "strained" to me, whether it's on the open highway, or passing on a two-lane. Drop it a gear, hit the gas, and it goes, just as well as the VQ.

    In terms of refinement, both the VQ and DT don't come close to Honda though...
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    I didn't say it was, the GM comment meant to point out that they have started to get rid of many of those old 50s vintage pushrods in favor of that new 3.6 which is all those things you seem to value. Keep in mind that the Honda V6, is still SOHC, and is unarguably vastly superior (in terms of HP and refinement) than the DT3.0. IT IS NOT all about the number of valves or cams you have, VVT etc - there is more to it than that, it's called refinement.

    Okay, just checking as in the past some on that other discussion seemed to confuse the old Vulcan V6 with the Duratec. I guess I somewhat misunderstood your point as I got the impression you were saying the DT3.0 should be grouped with 1950s pushrods. And actually, I am not real concerned about the number of valves. etc., etc...

    Anyway, I'm driving the 4 cyl Ford/Mazda engine. It seems fine to me, sounds good to me at all times and I have not felt there is any problem with reving the engine to redline. The one minor thing I have noticed is I feel some vibration in the steering wheel when stopped in "D"...I'll find out when I go for my first oil change if this is normal or not. I don't remember feeling this on my test drives, but that does not necessarily mean it was not there.
  • micro99micro99 Posts: 51
    Car mags frequently suggest that one vehicle is "more or less refined"than another ! Now posters easily suggest that one engine is "more or less refined" than another . What exactly are we trying to describe when using this phrase to compare engines ? is it willingness to rev; NVH ( noise, vibration, harshness ); something else ?? Who`s willing to take a stab at defining this a bit better ?
  • lightfootfllightfootfl Posts: 442
    While I agree with the most of what you are saying, I can't help but wonder if you aren't using the name Sedona, when you possibly mean the Sonata. :confuse:
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Refined = it has "honda" or "toyota" label on it. ;)
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Actually, it's a question that deserves some serious debate. What are the qualities of a vehicle in this class that any of you would define as "refined"? Indeed that is a term that is freely bandied about - let's quantify it in tangible terms. The badging itself has nothing to do with it.

    IOW, define the characteristic itself - not the badge.
  • Very interesting thread. Good question as to what Refined actually means, if anything. IMHO when a mag. road tester says refined he is saying there have been improvement made over the years it has been in production. These improvements make the car, engine, trans, A/C unit or whatever, more efficient, quieter, smoother, closer fit, etc. Whatever, it means it meets the consumers desires better than last year.
    So refined means better, more useful, cheaper...
    That's my opinion (at this time and I reserve the right to change my opinion in the future :shades: )
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Oh, I would agree that it needs to be defined by those who use it...it's just that my impression has been that the bandying has mostly amounted to my tongue-in-cheek definition.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    One of the things I really liked about the older Accord (don't have enough experience with the newer ones to comment) was the tactile feel of the buttons and knobs. Every control had a positive engagement and damped feedback.

    I contrast this to the Contour, which had less satisfying controls which had hard clicks, although it too, had very positive engagement. The function was there, it just didn't feel as good. I also liked how easy to use the audio systems were in both of those cars.

    The controls on the Legacy feel very Honda-like, with that damped engagement feeling. It doesn't have the control layout of the older Honda though, and I have to look down activate some features in the Subie (this might be because I don't drive it as much).

    I think I can summarize refinement for me as the perception of quality in the things I touch when I'm in the car, so that is why I tend to concentrate on switches and controls.

    I don't mind a bit of drivetrain noise, I like knowing there is an engine up there, so that's not a big issue with me, nor do I need the interior cabin to be a library or mortuary.
  • I'm happy to offer my take on the qualities that make an engine refined or not.

    Using my Honda 2.4L inline 4-cylinder as an example of what I consider to be refined... Its as smooth at redline as at 1,000 rpm. Hold the RPMs anywhere in between and it always sounds and feels like it is meant for just that purpose; no vibration, and the tone from the engine and exhaust is nothing but pleasing. It never even gives you the impression that you are working it harder than it wants to. Going to high RPMs is sort of like switching from "Low" to "High" on my favorite 240-mph electric leafblower, in that it feels like just another setting available for normal use; no drama involved, just a louder "whoosh" and more performance when needed. Throttle it up and it lightly growls, then just sings... and you want to do it again. It is a great motor especially considering its in an inexpensive, practical sedan.

    Now, a motor that is not refined has none of the above qualities. In fact, in many ways it will be opposite. It may be perfectly acceptable under normal conditions, but push it and the sounds are harsh and displeasing, and/or you can almost feel the motor is out of balance, thrashing or vibrating. It doesn't feel like it was made to rev that high. These engines make you feel guilty when you take them to redline, like you are damaging the motor based on how it sounds or feels through the controls. Floor it once, and you'll think "I don't need to do that again unless I have to." The impression is that the engine is tearing itself apart to get at those high revs.

    When driving that DT30 Fusion, I enjoyed the performance, and please don't think I am "bashing" or "hating," but I wanted to lift off the throttle well before redline. It did not feel nearly as "refined." This, to me, takes away some of the enjoyment of putting an internal combustion engine through its paces.
  • punkr77punkr77 Posts: 183
    To me refined refers not to previous iterations of that make. I use it in comparison to other vehicles.

    If I think car A is more refined than car B, the sum of its qualities is better than it's competitor. A lot of it will be subjective (interior and exterior appearance, the feel of the controls, handling, etc). Some of it isn't (acceleration, noise, etc). It's really how good a end product it is as a whole from the smallest detail on up.

    Do the door handles flex when you pull on them? Does the cup holder block the shifter? Does the steering wheel block the instrument cluster? Does the steering communicate to the driver what the car is actually doing? Do potholes make you wonder if parts of your car are falling off?
  • I love this.
    You say "that the Honda V6, is still SOHC, and is unarguably vastly superior (in terms of HP and refinement) than the DT3.0"
    You say that with a tone, to me anyway, that the Honda V6 is a superior power plant than, everything? I know that is not what you say, just the way it sounded when I reread it. That is a fine opinion and I am not saying you said anything wrong or that can be argued. You believe strongly in the, quality?, refinement?, efficiency?, superiority?, of the Honda engine(s).
    I have owned I4's Turbo I4's, I6's V6's H6's, V8's V10's OHV, SOHC, DOHC, 2v/c, 4v/c, 1.2L, 2.L, 2.6L, 3.0L, 3.6L, 5.0L 5.3L, 5.7, 6.2L, and 8L cars/trucks.
    They all had superior something to something else and performed their assigned tasks very well for a long time (except for the aluminum Vega engine).
    So what is your opinion comparing the Honda V6 to
    Cadillac (GM) 3.6 DOHC VVT V6 (DI 300 H-P version)?
    Lexus IS 3.5 DOHC VVT V6 (306 H-P)?
    How about the Audi new Diesel engines?
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    don't know if it 'skewed' or not, but not too many years ago we would put grind cams in our engines that effectively would hold intake valves open longer and in a slightly earlier part of the piston stroke, this would allow the engine to suck some more gas (improving breathing), in the process producing more HP and obviously improving 'efficiency. The downside, of course, that loping idle becuase the engine would be less efficient at low rpms. So now we have VVT which is effectively a cam shift that occurs at higher engine speeds that does effectively the same type of thing except that it can also be 'programmed' to occur as deemed necessary by engine loads, fuel octanes etc. - (the Honda VTEC, I believe) The Toyota system takes it quite a bit further, allowing for continuous adjustment on both the intake and exhaust sides again in response to computer readings - allowing for not only some HP, but also effectively 'flattening' out of the torque curve, as well as improved emissions. (CVVTi in their lingo). The DT 3.0 if I'm not mistaken, is mechanical shift only on the intake side and does nothing about lift duration. If this suppostion is correct, don't know if this could conceivably be why the engine is so reticent to rev and/or is relatively HP challenged. You sound like a man that could answer that?
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,229
    Does the " L " chose from 2 or 3 lower gear selections?

    I'm not entirely sure but I recall someone posting that the manual states just that. When in "L" the tranny decides which gear is best, between 2 or 3 gears, given gas pedal placement, speed, etc. Someone who has actually used it could maybe let us all know how that works?

    A stick can be fun, but not around town. I prefer a stick on a sports car, preferably RWD. For FWD, from now on, I will stick with automatics.

    I'm the opposite for the most part. Cars we've owned with sticks include a '96 Civic EX, '98 ZX2, '04 Mazda6 S, and currently an '06 Mustang GT. The only one I hated driving in city traffic, which I do on a daily basis, was the Civic because it had zero low end power. As long as the car has some power and I don't have to rev it up to move a few feet I'm happy. The 6 was FWD and an absolute blast to drive.

    FWIW I did test drive the Mazda6 i with a stick and the V6 with the manumatic. The i was like the Civic to me and the manumatic was useless because it shifted too early IMO. Plus there was the whole bored left foot sydrome associtated with it. ;)
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Honda continues to build about the best smaller engines on the market but what I was doing was comparing one of the best to perhaps one of the worst. In response to an argument that seemed to imply that that DT in question must be a good or current engine simply because it has 24 valves or multiple OHCs, and/or a rudimentary valve timing system. Those specific engines you mention, the Toyota 3.5, the GM 3.6 are fine examples or the state of the art and in that respect are 'better' (if better, is defined as more current technologically) than the design that Honda is currently using. You forgot BTW the VW 3.6, the MB 3.5 and about every BMW inline 6 ever produced. Point taken, you can point to a whole bunch of engines over the years (the GM 3.8 and more V8s than you can count?) that has served their purposes well, but there remains a vast difference in how a Honda/Nissan/Toyota/Hyundai engine feels and sounds relative to that DT we were talking about) that is not exactly related to how much power each happen to put out.

    PS I fully expect that it'll be Honda that shortly comes out with some engine superior in almost all respects even to the Toyota 2GR-FSE you mentioned.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    When driving that DT30 Fusion, I enjoyed the performance, and please don't think I am "bashing" or "hating," but I wanted to lift off the throttle well before redline.

    Did you drive the 2.3L I4? If so, did you have the same impression of that engine?
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    When driving that DT30 Fusion, I enjoyed the performance, and please don't think I am "bashing" or "hating," but I wanted to lift off the throttle well before redline. It did not feel nearly as "refined." This, to me, takes away some of the enjoyment of putting an internal combustion engine through its paces.
    Thank you, exactly what I'm talking about, with many of the other cars in this group, you don't have the time to "want to lift off the throttle"
  • Did you drive the 2.3L I4? If so, did you have the same impression of that engine?

    Yes I have driven the 2.3L I4: normally aspirated in a 2006 Fusion SE manual, and then turbocharged and direct-injected in a 2006 Mazdaspeed Mazda6.

    In normally aspirated form, I noticed a slight "buzziness" to the sound, not entirely displeasing because it reminded me of the 2.2L I4 I had in my first car, a 1991 Mazda 626. Also, when accelerating through the gears, I'd let off the gas completely and push in the clutch, and the RPMs would always jump up by 500. The manual shift knob was huge, and the lever action wasn't very precise (not unlike my 1998 626 ES-V6). As I mentioned before, the Ford/Mazda 2.3L (at least in the midsizers) feels a notch slower than the Camry 2.4L, which is a notch (or two) below the Honda 2.4L. Performance/acceleration numbers seem to bear this out. I'm sure it's more fun in a Mazda3 or Focus. Bottom line, I wouldn't call this motor "unrefined," it was quite happy to buzz along. I just wanted more grunt from my 4-banger.

    In turbo form, the motor was a real hoot. Tons of torque, but power started to drop off above about 4,800 RPM. I liked it very much, and would have purchased it, but even heavily discounted to around $24,000 it was a little more than I wanted to spend, even before I figured up the insurance!
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,601
    Yes, the SE is a v-6. Our price was $16651 + $189 doc fee plus ttl (6% sales tax) OTD 18,189.

    This was from a high volume dealer about 100 miles away. The local dealer was only discounting the car $500 and had a $210 higher doc fee and throws in $500 advertising for good measure. The dealer we bought from had an internet price of $1800 below INVOICE. There was a general $1,000 rebate and another $1,000 rebate if financed through Hyundai Finance (5.9% for 60 months)We also qualified for the owner loyalty rebate of $500. Our price for the car, before doc + ttl, was $4300 under invoice or $5429 below MSRP.

    The resale value game is a shell game. Trade-in value or retail value of a used car? I just saw Enterprise rent-a-car offering a comparably equipped '06 Sonata with 14,692 miles for $17,999 and they say, "blue book retail value" of $20,690. Enterprise is a "no haggle" price.
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