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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    You say it is the "highest selling car" and "regarded as the best". The highest selling car can be easily defined, but is not always going to be "regarded as best". If it is not, then which is the "class leader"?

    Sometimes there is no clear "class leader". The class leader can sell for more because it's the class leader. It doesn't become the class leader, simply because it has a higher price.

    If price does not matter, then maybe we need to consider whether midsize sedans like the Audi S6 ($72,000) or BMW M5 ($83,000) out-class cars like the Camry and Accord.

    These cars are in a different class. Who doesn't know this? They can be the "class leader" in their own class.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    HP=bragging rights and looks good on paper and to the person who is researching vehicles. What I don't understand is these are supposed to be family sedans not sport sedans or race cars. When will the HP war end? Who knows? Frankly I look for substance and value in a vehicle. Do I really need a 500HP family sedan? Heck no. My bet is the consumer will choose by showing manufactures by sales numbers as to what they want.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Fusion S 5spd 4cyl in the paper today for $14,777!! with ABS and "extras". Only 1 at this price, but still.. what a steal..
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    One point to take a look at is the "class leader" has the lowest consumer rankings by actual owners?? (Posted above). This is puzzling to me. You would think the "class leader" would have at least a score close to other vehicles in this class or better. The other thing to look at is the amount of consumer reviews. Anyone who has had statistics knows what I am talking about.. ;)
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Technology will continue to advance engine and powertrain designs. And improvements in fuel mileage and power will be made. You can even choose what advancement you want to take advantage of. You can opt for the high mileage of a Hybrid, or fuel efficient 4cylinder engines that have the power of V6 engines made 10 years ago. Or you can opt for the new V6 engines that have the fuel efficiency of 4cylinder engines of 10 years ago, and power of V8 engines made 10 years ago. Isn't technology great!!!? :shades:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    My 1996 got clipped tonight on I-59. I'll post pictures and the story later on. Its a sad day, even though the damage is limited.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    These cars are in a different class. Who doesn't know this? They can be the "class leader" in their own class.

    Yes, they are in a different class because the price of the car does matter. This whole "class leader" claim seems kind of silly to me, anyway.

    You can not objectively determine that one car is the "best" in a particular "class". "Best" is a subjective judgement that a person makes based on their evaluation of a whole lot of objective and subjective criteria and "class" is a fuzzy term.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Yes, they are in a different class because the price of the car does matter.

    Price does matter when separating the classes. Not many people are going to test drive a BMW 5 series today, then test drive a Camry tomorrow.

    You can not objectively determine that one car is the "best" in a particular "class".

    The consumers have voted. The Camry is the class leader, so other car makers try to emulate it. Hyundai was following the "leader" when they designed the Sonata. If the Mazda6 was the class leader, I think the Sonata would be a very different car.

    Everyone does not have to agree on what car is best. Personally, I don't like the Camry, or the Camry copiers, so I voted for another car.
  • lightfootfllightfootfl Member Posts: 442
    Sorry to hear that. Hope no one was hurt, and all is OK.
    van
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    The law of averages catches up with you sooner or later. Consider yourself lucky that you got that far in mileage before it happened. :sick:
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I believe the class leader in this segment, is the Camry even though the Accord is a better vehicle overall. The reason the Camry sells and sells is that it typifies what is needed in the segment. Decent, reliable, transportation, inexpensive to operate, room for a family. Toyota figured out what a family sedan was and rolled with it.

    As a car that I would buy, it's last on my list, but I wouldn't hestitate to recommend it (and I have) to people looking for a family sedan. People know what they get into when they buy a Camry, unlike Ford. There are a lot of people(at least that I know) that won't go near a Ford again. It may be perception, but it is a reality. Those that buy Camrys may rate them a "5", but they know the car will always be a five. I don't think people say that about Ford, even though the ratings may start higher.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    I believe the class leader in this segment, is the Camry even though the Accord is a better vehicle overall

    I agree, At one time we had both in our garage. The Camry offers a markedly different drive than the Accord. The Camry's kinda 'Buicky/floaty'. The Accord is more 'athletic'.

    Both were bulletproof and held their value very well.

    I get the Accord appeal. The Camry appeal is harder for me to grasp, but I understand it.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    Isn't technology great!!!?

    A very pertinent post. But one that makes me again realize that we should have bought an I4 2.3-liter 160 horsepower Fusion instead of the V6 3.0-liter 221 horsepower one.
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    even though the Accord is a better vehicle

    once again, thats just an opinion.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Decent, reliable, transportation, inexpensive to operate, room for a family.

    That can be said for any number of mid-sized cars, including the Accord, Fusion/Milan, Sonata, Optima, etc.

    If that's all someone is looking for in a mid-sized car, they have lots of good choices besides the Camry. They just have to make the effort to check them out.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Of course it's an opinion, how many times does one have to say: "I believe", "in my opinion", "IMHO", "IMO", etc.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Of course! You are referring to the marketing segment of family midsize sedans. But I was referring to the class leader as being the Camry (IMO, of course). And of course, I don't know how much shopping people in general really do. I do know people who head straight for Honda and Toyota, for they think those cars are the best at what they do.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    As a car that I would buy, it's last on my list, but I wouldn't hestitate to recommend it (and I have) to people looking for a family sedan.

    KDShapiro,

    What's first on your list? What do you drive now?

    I disagree with your comments regarding Ford but understand that you are entitled to your opinions even though they come mighty close to bashing a manufacturer, in my humble opinion, and that is something that is supposedly verboten on this mid-size sedan thread.

    I guess that you have conveniently forgotten all those years when Taurus was the No. 1-selling mid-size sedan by a large margin. IMHO Ford allowed the Taurus to die on the vine, did not keep pace with the marketplace which, in turn, allowed Camry to move into the No. 1 spot.

    Will Toyota remain there? Will Honda move up? Will the Ford Fusion catch on and become No. 1? Will Sonata sales soar at some point in the future? And what about the Aura and the Altima? Will a Chevrolet Malibu work its way up?

    Will Camrys be smitten with another problem like the terrible oil sludge debacle?

    Maybe I am not typical, but I have always had good experiences with Ford products and currently own three of them, a 1997 Thunderbird with 85,000 miles, a 2000 Focus station wagon with 92,000 miles and a 2007 Fusion with 3,400 miles.

    Would I buy another Ford product? You bet. Have I ever owned anything manufactured by Honda or Toyota? No, but I have owned three Mazda products, which were also fine vehicles.

    It's my guess that the Honda Accord is destined to become the No. 1-selling mid-size sedan and that's fine with me. This great country is all about choices and competition, which are both healthy attributes.

    Boz
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    I guess that you have conveniently forgotten all those years when Taurus was the No. 1-selling mid-size sedan by a large margin.

    Yea - and 50% of those sales were to rental car companies, who's requirements are vastly different than those to consumers. Also think 'pre-internet' period where folks couldn't research like they do now.

    My 1996 Taurus was a joke and cemented the forget-Ford feeling in my house. We traded that car for a Camry and the Camry experience was excellent. It'll take many, many years for Ford to move up the possible purchase ladder for me. Probably won't considering the plethora of alternatives out there today.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    The consumers have voted. The Camry is the class leader

    Okay, so now you are saying class leader = sales leader. Before it was the car that was also to be deemed best by reviewers or something like that. So why not just say it is the best selling car in it's "class" or "segment"...or it's the best selling midsize car? Heck, you can even say it's the best selling car period.
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    I would say the camry is the sales leader, and thats all. I wouln't call it best in class, best in segment, best car or anything else. Sales numbers are subjective. They're affected a lot by perception, advertising, marketing, and a host of other factors.

    And I agree with what the other poster said about ford. I would never again in my life buy a ford car. Just too many bad experiences in the past. And that's not unusual, most people who have a bad experience with a car won't buy from them again. But, I think in the case of ford, they let quality control durring the 90's slip to a level where they alienated a lot of past customers. I don't think they did it on purpose, they just figured the future was in SUV's and Trucks. They paid a lot less attention to, and spent a lot less money on their passenger cars.
    And it's not my intention to bash Ford, just reality. They'll recove eventualy, and if their cars don't, they sell enough trucks that they will always be a big (even if not the biggest) player in the automotive market.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    All are ok, and as you'll see, the damage is purely cosmetic. I know this isn't exactly on topic (although it IS a car listed for this page! :P ) but I appreciate y'all listening to me; we're a midsize sedan family, ya know!? :)

    Long story short - Heavy traffic. Two-lane interstate each direction, 70 MPH. I'm in the left lane keeping up with everyone, doing about 70 (right lane was slooooow). Crazy-guy tries to pass me on inside shoulder unsuccessfully (he ran out of grass and nearly hit a guardrail). He is able to pass on the right (remember, I'm keeping up with what is in front of me within about 4 carlengths the whole time). He swerves over, and clips me. The policeman said it was obvious he wasn't telling the truth, and I was, based on the damage pattern and my story. He got out of his car playing it off saying "it was just a fender bender, no big deal." I may file a complaint at the courthouse, the policeman told me it was at my discretion to do so.

    My parking light is missing, and my passenger side low-beam doesn't work, but both highbeams work, as well as the blinkers. Nothing too much seems to have happened under the hood. I drove it up to 70 MPH last night after it happened with no problem. When I had to turn off my high beams, I had to slow way down though, with only one light!

    Here's one pic, the rest can be found on my carspace page.

    image
    See more Car Pictures at CarSpace.com
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    And that's not unusual, most people who have a bad experience with a car won't buy from them again. But, I think in the case of ford, they let quality control durring the 90's slip to a level where they alienated a lot of past customers. I don't think they did it on purpose, they just figured the future was in SUV's and Trucks. They paid a lot less attention to, and spent a lot less money on their passenger cars.

    I think that's an accurate assessment, JD. People who have had a bad experience with a make or model tend to avoid buying another apple out of that barrel. Conversely, those who have pleasant experiences usually consider the same manufacturer when it comes time for a new vehicle.

    This is why quality is so important for all manufacturers and I believe the auto industry, as a whole, has make tremendous progress in the last 20 years and continues that trend today.

    I've owned a great many cars and trucks, both new and used, since getting my first car, a 1952 Studebaker in 1958 and none of them were really "bad."

    Our 2007 SEL AWD Fusion is, however, in a league of its own (for the first six months). The fit and finish is perfect and there have been zero squeaks, rattles or things that go bump in the night. The car is flawless as far as we can tell. Knock on wood. I hope the trend continues, of course.

    I simply can't imagine a Camry or Accord being any "better," yet I am 100 percent sure that legions of Toyota and Honda owners are just as satisfied with their purchases, too.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    The hubcap staying on is a good sign. Shouldn't be any suspension damage. Do you know of a good shop in your area?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Well, he didn't hit me below the fender, so it drives perfect. I'm heading to the dealer in a few to talk to a long-time family friend about it (he is sales manager, but is the type that wouldn't even let us DRIVE a Passport back in the day because it wasn't a good car), and where I should get the estimate. This crazy-guy's insurance should cover it, since it was obviously his fault.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    What insurance company does he have? Not Safeway, I hope. It could be easier going through your own insurance company, even if the other guy is at fault.
  • lightfootfllightfootfl Member Posts: 442
    That's one of those, looks (semi-OK)like not too bad, but until a good shop checks it out you can't tell. Glad it wasn't worse, and all runs out good. This kind is more frustrating, especially as you have maintained it. :cry: Unfortunately today's shops will look and say something like "oh,front qtr, plus."...etc I hope you have a good shop relationship somewhere. Be aware how it will affect the insurance rates too. Also, considering all things, present and future, be sure to document everything,and keep the reports and pics,also consider seeing a doc, just in case, even if you don't file for anything immediately, or ever. It could possibly "bite you much later". Again, happy it wasn't worse, and you are OK. :sick:

    van
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    I simply can't imagine a Camry or Accord being any "better,"

    They aren't. at least not in any significant way. To the enthueasist, there's differences. But, none that the average driver will notice. The one thing thats hard to factor into reliability statistics is maintance/care of the vehicle. If you do all the required maintanence when your supposed to, and don't try doing it on the cheap, any car will last 10yr/200k miles. IMO, fords biggest problem right now is a lack of quality management from the top down. They're in need of a bigggg shake-up. Not just changing CEO's Kind of the same thing that almost brought Nissan down.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    IMO, fords biggest problem right now is a lack of quality management from the top down. They're in need of a bigggg shake-up.

    I think it's really funny that Alan Mulally, Ford's new CEO, owned a Lexus when he was hired. I wonder what he drives around in now that he is Ford's top dog?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Having looked under the hood, I did a quick check and other than the headlight being loose, I don't see much else. The car is still aligned perfetly, with no vibrations.

    I'm gonna bypass the doc, since the it didn't really move me in the car. I didn't skid a tire or even have a chance to swerve. He just clipped me, and we pulled over. I already have a knee problem from locking my leg on the brake on impact in my last crash (in this same car). This one wasn't violent at all, and had I not heard it and seen it, I'm not sure I would've even felt the "bump." I'll get more than one estimate, for sure. At this point, I'm VERY lucky to have a 2006 Accord waiting on me in the driveway, and will drive it until the other car is fixed.

    I actually did not get the other guy's insurance number/company, but the policeman assured me it would be in the report I could pick up Tuesday. I did my best to stay away from the other driver, he was a total loon. In fact, I even kept my car in D4 until I was sure he wasn't getting out to approach me. I didn't want him pulling a weapon.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Last I heard it was a Five Hundred, but I think he said he's making it a point to drive every vehicle Ford makes.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    That's a very good idea, in my book. Thanks for sharing Allen. It's good that he gets to know Ford's products firsthand. Having owned and driven a Lexus he should have a pretty good idea of where Ford, Lincoln, Mercury needs to be.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    He also spent a day selling cars in a dealership and spent a day with Consumer Reports and his engineers finding out what they could improve.

    He's definitely doing all the right things so far.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    He's definitely doing all the right things so far.

    Now, if the bean counters will allow for the improvements!
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    I suspect the road to recovery and viability will be a long one. I wish him and FoMoCo all the best.
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    I suspect the road to recovery and viability will be a long one. I wish him and FoMoCo all the best.

    not necessarily. Nissan was in far worse shape in '99. the company was expected (by most experts) to file for bankruptcy protection within a year. With the proper management and recovery plan, they did a complete 180 in about 3 years. I don't see ford being in any worse shape. they have everything they need to turn things around. They just need to have the right people who can do it.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "What's first on your list? What do you drive now?"

    First on my list is the Honda. But when I went around looking for cars I was almost ready to buy the Honda Accord but I bought an XT instead. I needed something with more room that I could haul stuff and decided I wanted AWD. In addition, while it is not a "family" sedan, it is a family car and is as quick as all get go.

    I have had two Ford products and one of them better than the other. One had tranny problems right after the warranty expired.

    By the way not recommending a manufacturer is not bashing. For me there is no better choice in this segment than the Accord. The Camry comes in second, despite some prior issues. No car has ever been immune to issues, but the overall picture of the Camry is a good one indeed.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    I bought an XT instead.

    Is that the Outback or the Forester?

    I heard the Outback's lot more to insure than an Accord. Comments?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Sure. Here's my first thought on that...

    Surprised. A safety gold pick (IIRC), AWD, less likely to be stolen. Seems like it should be cheaper.

    Question, is the Subaru we are talking about a turbo? Turbos raise rates. Another question. Is the Accord a V6 or I4?
  • prosource1prosource1 Member Posts: 234
    'I bought an XT instead. I needed something with more room that I could haul stuff and decided I wanted AWD.'

    We looked at a Suburu but was disappointed with:

    -very poor interior room...especially rear seat leg room

    -build quality issues: door shutting sounds like a tin can, engine sounds like a bad sounding diesel.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    There are no build quality issues. The door sound is the door sound and the rear can hold 5 adults without any problems. Subaru generally builds highly rated, reliable cars. It might not be as roomy as others with all of the conceivable options, but it's not cramped either and some of the options are in the engineering. There are trade-offs in the Forester vs the EX for example, but I took the upside of the trade-offs with the downside of the trade-offs.
  • mcoctopusmcoctopus Member Posts: 13
    I'm getting a leftover '06 mazda6 s for 16,500. Do you think I'm paying too much? My friends and coworkers gave a split decision. My dad is furious that I'm buying a new car. My mom's happy that it's a new car.

    But none of them have driven the car. I've driven it and it's fabulous. And a gorgeous looking car.

    I'm looking for an honest, anonymous opinion on the dealers price offer. I spent 3 hrs with him and he wouldnt take anything less that 16,500. What you think?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Seems like it would depend on what options the car has, and how many miles are on it.
  • mcoctopusmcoctopus Member Posts: 13
    Its not a demo car - just 6 miles on it. Only options are 6spd auto, cd changer (not a Bose), and chromatic rearview mirror. Everything else is standard.

    Standard front grille, 17in alloys, abs, traction control, airbags, floormats, remote locking, engine immobiliser etc etc.

    What you think?
  • mcoctopusmcoctopus Member Posts: 13
    Other thing is that he knows that he's not going to get any more business from me. The dealer is 100 miles away and I'm not going there for maintenance. He said that himself.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    You didn't mention the car's MSRP. Do you plan on keeping it for four or five years? Bear in mind that the 2008s will be out in the fall. So, even if the car is brand new to you it will still officially be two years old as soon as the '08s appear.

    On the surface, it seems like a good deal. The Mazda6 is a fine automobile, from what I have read. You seem to be very enamored with the car.

    Is there another Mazda dealer closer than 100 miles where you can have the car serviced? Having a good dealer close at hand is part of the equation, too.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    There are no build quality issues. The door sound is the door sound and the rear can hold 5 adults without any problems. Subaru generally builds highly rated, reliable cars. It might not be as roomy as others with all of the conceivable options, but it's not cramped either and some of the options are in the engineering. There are trade-offs in the Forester vs the EX for example, but I took the upside of the trade-offs with the downside of the trade-offs.

    I second the Subaru experience. It is also in a body style not offered by the other manufacturers (at least until this year) - a midsize wagon. It is also available with a manual transmission and AWD. In 2 years - I have been totally stoked with this purchase, my only remorse being that it is the base model wagon and in hindsight, the model up with more doodads would've been desirable, but the model we got undercut the cost of an Accord, so I definitely can't complain about the diesel.

    Toyota bought GMs chunk of Subaru (and a little more, I believe) mainly to get access to manufacturing facilities in Indiana, but I would expect to see the typical Toyota pairing down of models to the one-size-fits-most level.
  • mcoctopusmcoctopus Member Posts: 13
    At 16,500, it's 9000 off the sticker price.

    There are quite a few Mazda dealers close by but they dont have new 2006 version. They have used auctioned-of-rental cars but not for a price I'm willing to pay. I cannot bring myself to pay 15,000+ for an ex-rental with 20,000 mileage when I can buy the new car for 16,500.

    I'm not going to keep this car for more than 3 yrs. It has 4yr 50,000 mile warranty, so I plan to sell it at 40,000 miles. I think the next owner would be willing to pay extra bucks for the warranty.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Now, if the bean counters will allow for the improvements!

    He's fixing that, too. He immediately took control of the capital budget away from the Board of Directors and he now has sole discretion of how to spend capital. That alone should help a lot.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    By the way not recommending a manufacturer is not bashing.

    It is when it's based on outdated or incorrect information.
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