Midsize Sedans 2.0

m6user · July 2013

I'm always hearing people say that CR has these secret tests and they won't give any details. Below is from CRs website. What more do you want? I know they could provide a little more fine detail but from what I read it's about as real world as you can get. I know you're a big Ford guy and CR hasn't been too kind to Ford lately, but at least they compare each car/truck on an equal basis. Their tests may not be equal to any one person's particular driving habits or commute but as long as they are done impartially and the same for every vehicle I consider it a very good test. Is it the "best"? Who knows. Name a better one then. It's certainly not the car mags or web blog tests as they have the car for a couple of days and drive for speed and handling versus an everyday commute type test like CR does. I use their numbers for comparison purposes and have found them to be very accurate. More so than any other tests I read.

"Road tests. Consumer Reports fuel-economy tests are conducted on our track and on public roads. Testers splice a precise fuel meter into each test cars fuel line to measure how much gas is consumed. Each car is then run through highway and city drive loops, with each performed multiple times by two drivers.

The city test is conducted on a loop thats set up on our track to reflect driving in a suburban area. Its marked so that a driver must maintain specific speeds in certain sections and stop the car at specific points for set idling times. Highway mpg is measured by driving on a particular stretch of sparsely used freeway near our test track at a steady pace of 65 mph. Each driver runs the test in both directions to compensate for wind and the slight difference in grade.

Our raw results are corrected for temperature using a formula established by the Society of Automotive Engineers. But we dont test if its too hot, too cold, too wet, or too windy. Our overall mpg is a weighted composite of city and highway mpg measurements."

[Deleted User] · July 2013

Yep. I absolutely adored the Sonata when it first came out, and as if by magic a neighbor bought a black one with the 18"s and dual exhaust...looked great. That is what prompted me to notice Hyundai/Kia in the first place.

Now, I see 50 GLS models a day, but rarely a nice one like my neighbors. It seems the 199/ mo. advertising has been very effective, and Mr Hyundai is happy man. It needs a face lift, and isn't getting enough of one in 2014.

I also agree that the previous Sonata did have some quiet, good looks. (Limited V6 look nice)

What I wasn't prepared for today was seeing a white 2013 Honda Accord Sport at the grocery store after work. WOW :surprise: Awesome. It just gushes with modern, bold.... yet classy styling. Absolutely the best looking Accord 4 door ever. They better make Sirius and Navigation available on it next model year. To have a car that gorgeous and not have modern Infotainment is unacceptable.

*** sorry about the bold, but I liked it that much.

wayne21 · July 2013

Is CR's gas mileage the best? IDK if it's the best, but it's pretty obvious that it could not be any more fair.

explorerx4 · July 2013

I don't anything in their explanation that I'd be willing to bet the ranch on.
For example, what is the city/highway weighting they use? It could be any ratio.

akirby · July 2013

It doesn't tell you any details at all about the test - how long it is, speeds, idle time, etc.

It's A test but it's hardly THE test. If you're looking for a scientifically controlled repeatable test with very little variance then that's the EPA tests. At least they publish all the details at www.fueleconomy.gov.

m6user · July 2013

I read somewhere else that they use a 50/50 mix but I couldn't find it. I don't bet the ranch on anything. Is there something you reference that you WOULD bet the ranch on? Nothing is absolute and most smart consumers use many different reviews and reference sources including family, friends and neighbors. None of which would I "bet the ranch" on. I use a lot of sources of information before I buy a vehicle. Hope you do too.

m6user · July 2013

Did you even read what I posted. It clearly stated the hwy speed of 65 mph. Also, they mentioned that they repeat the test several times taking into consideration temp, winds, etc. etc and use fuel meter spliced into the gas lines. They seem to take into account many different "scientific" aspects of mpg testing.

Is it a space shot? Heck no, but you tell me how you compute your city and hwy mpg and prove it's nearly as scientific. Everybody is always bitching about how none of the tests are "real world" and when somebody does it about as real world as one can and still be very impartial about it they still complain.

I know you like the EPA test as it gives Ford a very optimistic number which most real world type testing proves isn't realistic. I also compare EPA numbers but in many cases they just aren't in line with what people are really getting. Some manufacturers seem to meet or beat the EPA numbers handily, others not so much.

akirby · July 2013

They don't publish any speeds for the city test which is what I was referring to. The highway test is simple.

What does "real world" mean? I can take the same vehicle and get 30 mpg in one case and 15 mpg in another. Both are 'real world' but someone running E-10 in a hilly area with winter fuel and jack rabbit stops and starts and short trips on deflated tires will get different results than E-0 on flat land in summer. That's the problem with any test - there is no such thing as a single 'real world' test or test result.

The EPA test was never intended to tell you what fuel economy you can expect in the 'real world'. In fact the old window stickers used to give you a range of mpg to expect and it was huge - something like EPA city rating 17 mpg (range 12-25 mpg). It's only intended to compare 2 vehicles using as identical a test procedure as humanly possible.

The EPA test is structured to remove as many variables as possible and it's the most scientific and easily repeatable test that exists. This is about scientific accuracy and testing methods.

It sounds like what you're saying is you find CR's fuel economy test to be very close to the mileage you experience on the same vehicles. Fine. That's great for YOU but not necessarily for others who don't drive the same way. Anyone who drives faster or slower than 65 on the highway won't get the same results (e.g.).

m6user · July 2013

You just don't get it. The main point is that they test ALL vehicles the same and account for variables. The numbers they come up with are good for comparison, just like the EPA's numbers are good for comparison. I stated very clearly that no test can duplicate every drivers personal situation. Duh. Actually, the EPA numbers do a pretty good job for me as well as CR's do. The average that CR comes up with is pretty close but I find the EPA highway to be closer to what I get. All of which means nothing because that is, like you said, one driver's experience.

I don't find a lot of fault with the EPA's methodology. Nor do I find a lot of fault with CR's. It's just another data point for research. You seem to have a big problem with the way CR does their testing even though you admittedly don't know much about it. For practical purposes, I think they do a decent job.

As far as real world, no test can duplicate 200+ million drivers habits and scenarios and it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure that out. As long as the tests are done exactly the same on each vehicle, which CR seems to do, the results should be good for comparison purposes just like the EPA. There is a reason for the saying "your mileage may vary".

akirby · July 2013

You seem to have a big problem with the way CR does their testing even though you admittedly don't know much about it.

Where did I say that? All I said was that CR doesn't publish much about their tests so it's hard to say anything about it. I was simply replying to whomever said the CR test was better.

CR intentionally uses vague terms. Why don't they publish what they account for and how? It's not difficult. The EPA is very transparent in what and how they test. Why isn't CR?

gee22 · July 2013

The Fusion tested does have a higher MSRP, but just looking at the side view mirrors. I'm sure they both have heated side view mirrors, but the Fusion also has a built in wide angle, turn signals, puddle lamps, and Blind spot system.
That's just the side view mirrors, and I'll bet there are a bunch of other features that are also much better on the Fusion.

Just to set the record straight, the mirrors on the Mazda Touring that was tested, while they don't have puddle lamps or are wide-angle, they are heated, have turn signals, and have blind spot monitoring. Incidentally, in additon to the visible BLIS on the mirrors, there's also an audible chirp when you turn on the turn signal if there is something in your blind spot.

It is true that if you get the top of the line models, there is more technology available with the Fusion. One of the reasons we went with the Mazda rather than the Fusion was that Active Xenon headlights were available and after driving with them in our Volvo, they were a must have.

puppybone69 · July 2013

I don't understand why HID's haven't been outlawed yet. They may be great behind the wheel, but they blind other drivers with a painful piercing light that should be illegal. I do find it very odd that the Fusion doesn't feature LED daytime running lights though. If I could change one thing about mine, I would add them where they should already be.

thegraduate · July 2013

U need 2 look around: many new models feature some variant on the Sonata grill including the Fusion and Avalon among others.

You've missed my point; all cars are starting to look the same to some degree. The 06 Sonata looked like the 03 Accord. The '13 Accord looks like the Genesis. Neither is a condemnation of either company in my eyes.

U need 2 look around: many new models feature some variant on the Sonata grill including the Fusion and Avalon among others.

The Sonata grill, not the Hybrid catfish face - the one with class-leading aerodynamics. They sacrificed graceful styling for aero.

And I already own one - my second Sonata hybrid

I never would've guessed... :shades:

thegraduate · July 2013

I don't understand why HID's haven't been outlawed yet. They may be great behind the wheel, but they blind other drivers with a painful piercing light that should be illegal.

If aligned properly, they aren't blinding; the exception being when you meet one coming over a hill - when the light focuses on your face it's like staring into the sun. :shades:

One thing I noticed is a lot of Nissan lights blind me at night. It seems their standard alignment is higher than other OEMs. It doesn't matter what model, Sentra, Altima, Frontier, Maxima... I've actually "flashed" my high-beams at Nissan drivers to remind them to use low-beams before only to realize they weren't even using their high-beams.

andres3 · July 2013

Seems like it comes down to paying about $4K more for 2 extra HP, 2 lower MPG, the Acura name, the longer warranties, and a better interior.

I wish the Accord had a SH-AWD option; nah!never mind. Acura just needs to up the TL's performance! It should be at 330 HP by now with a diet losing 500 lbs.

andres3 · July 2013

I test drove the new Accord and if it had been the first CVT I ever drove, I'd of never previously said "CVT's suck!"

Honda nailed it! Great car for the price.

andres3 · July 2013

Everything CR does is better, didn't you know? :P

As far as I'm concerned, they are the only "tell it like it really is" publication still around. They won loyalty by telling the truth, it all comes down to trust. They've EARNED that trust over the years.

kyrpto · July 2013

The Hyundai Sonata Hybrid was promoted as the first hybrid engineered primarily for better highway mileage. It can cruise on all-electric at speeds up to 62 mph.
I personally have observed electric-only driving at over 65 mph under light acceleration on the flats or downhill.

In our 2011 Sonata Hybrid on the way to the OBX via Rt. 64 early in the morning but still with constant AC, at interstate speeds using cruise set @ 70 mph, you could watch the battery load up past ¾ charge, then the EV light would illuminate while the blue arc mpg would peg, followed by the battery charge bar retreating.
All EV.

This would last between 30 and 40 seconds - we timed it - then the battery begins recharging, another cycle starts.
All the while the mpg indicator held at nearly 42.
Cooler early am temps surely helped out.

Switch to the power flow display going 70 mph like we did and watch the ICE and traction motor interact with the battery.
It can be distracting.
Really shows the sophistication of the first Hyundai hybrids.
Very smooth transitions at this speed.

Looking forward to even better mpg on the 2013 in these conditions.

m6user · July 2013

Really shows the sophistication of the first Hyundai hybrids.

CR, in their tests, shows the Fusion H getting 39 avg mpg versus the Sonata H getting 33 avg mpg. That's quite a difference. Doesn't appear to be that sophisticated to me as it's results that matter. If the Sonata system was that sophisticated it seems it would do better than 1 mpg better than a regular Mazda6. Results are what matters and also longevity and dependability which the Toyota hybrid system has in spades.

kyrpto · July 2013

That is from 2011; Consumer Reports have yet to test the upgraded version.

Hyundai downgraded the 2012 Sonata Hybrids by 1 mpg on their EPA estimates.
In question now is whether, having been chastened by its lessons, and sending the Sonata Hybrid back to the drawing board, the 2013s may possibly under promise but over deliver.
The MPG advertising number game is a big part of the marketing for these cars, and Ford was similarly caught short with its 47 mpg Fusion Hybrid, while Toyotas Camry Hybrid is more on-target with its advertised numbers.

We pressed Hyundai for details as to whether these specs add up to more than the conservative upticks in EPA estimates suggest. The last time Hyundai was accused of overpromising, it fully admitted its overstepping the bounds, and immediately got busy updating the cars to make good in full.

So, given the serious attempts at demonstrating an about-face and market competitiveness, we asked whether instead of overstating mileage its self-certification for EPA numbers might be holding back a little in a more conservative stance?

Hyundai would not directly answer this pointed question, but Senior Manager, Midwest Product Public Relations Miles Johnson merely said, All I can say is I cant wait for you to drive it.

http://www.hybridcars.com/2013-hyundai-sonata-hybrid-overview/

Check out the real world numbers for the 2013s on Fuely.
We're gotten over 40 mpg since we bought the 2013 using AC most all the time w/o any special hypermiling techniques in mixed driving.

Never got under 35mpg in our 2011 -2 years and 53,000 miles - for comparison; usually upper 30s and over forty regularly in the fall and spring.

BTW, Toyota is scrambling to redesign the '12 Camry as it failed the offset-crash-test.

With the advanced Lithium Polymer battery pack and 6 speed transmission, the Sonatas are true next gen hybrids; Toyota is sticking with the older nick-hydride battery and CVT to save $$,

[Deleted User] · July 2013

Krypto, I drive a 2012 Optima EX. For all intents and purposes its drivetrain and weight make it a Sonata clone. Driving around the DC area there is almost no way to drive in the fashion I would need to in order to get F/E that anywhere near resembles Hyundai/Kia published figures.

They should not have embellished in the first place. The public is already angry about their expensive new "efficient" cars that can't meet EPA figures. I am one of them. 24 mpg my a**. It is 19.4 right now on my IP-FE computer.
I think the entire EPA system needs a re-think. In this area we have to keep up with traffic light to light, and everyone is stressed out and tired of sitting. I am sure it is far more likely one could get 24/35 mpg numbers in Nebraska, but here? No way.

m6user · July 2013

That is from 2011; Consumer Reports have yet to test the upgraded version.

The article says that it was updated as of June 2013.

BTW, Toyota is scrambling to redesign the '12 Camry as it failed the offset-crash-test.

What has that got to do with hybrid mpg? I guess BTW, Hyundai was caught lying about their hp ratings in the past and their mpg numbers recently. Is that also pertinent?

I'm not bashing the Sonata. It's a fine car. It's just not the best things since sliced bread the way you think it is. All these cars have some specs that are better than others and some areas where they aren't. Hyundai interior looks are great but IMO their quality is very lacking. The suspension and handling of most Hyundai products are not anywhere up to par with the leaders in this group like Accord, Mazda6 and Passat. Sonata excels in value for the buck but if you want a little more precision engineering and quality trappings than you have to pay a few more bucks. Cheap leather does not make a luxury car.

This whole discussion lately reminds me of teenagers bragging about their rides. Everyone is scouring the internet trying to find the good reviews of their respective cars and posting huge excerpts to make a point. It's kind of tedious.

m6user · July 2013

I'm sure that Hyundai states in the fine print like all other brands that the city number and hwy number are an average for a range. The city number is probably about 18-26mpg and the hwy probably like 32-39mpg or something to that effect. If you do nothing but what is considered dense, urban stop and go traffic then you should expect to get somewhere in the lowest part of that "range", or 18-20mpg. The guy in Nebraska may do more like the 24-26mpg for his city driving. The EPA tries to account for the vast extremes by stating these ranges and just give the 24/35 numbers for a general comparison between cars. They aren't saying that no matter how or where you drive that you should expect to get those numbers. I would dare to say that you took your car out on the expressway on a Sunday when traffic was light and drove a steady 65mph or maybe even 70mph, you would see that 35mpg number.

I live in the Chicago suburbs and don't have to drive in rush traffic to any extent. I get pretty much the EPA numbers for both city and hwy. If I lived and drove at rush hour and lived more in towards downtown Chicago I have no doubt my numbers would be substantially lower in that EPA range and I wouldn't be getting close to the EPA combined number that I am now.

thegraduate · July 2013

This whole discussion lately reminds me of teenagers bragging about their rides. Everyone is scouring the internet trying to find the good reviews of their respective cars and posting huge excerpts to make a point. It's kind of tedious.

You find it tedious, I find it hilarious.

Hyundai interior looks are great but IMO their quality is very lacking.

I've actually been quite pleased with the quality of my Sonata's interior (2009 GLS, sunroof, popular equipment package). It's held up well. The car now has 108,000 miles on it, and the only visible sign of wear is the driver's seat; it has had a noticeable "wrinkle" in the fabric since about 50,000 miles, and is starting to feel a little bit wimpy in the support department. They were squishy to begin with, though.

imidazol97 · July 2013

>I find it hilarious.

A friend has a recently new Sonata and he's getting a check from Hykia for an amount to adjust for the promised fuel mileage compared to the true fuel mileage. I don't recall how long that's supposed to go on.

I find that interesting that they are having to pay their buyers.

m6user · July 2013

I've actually been quite pleased with the quality of my Sonata's interior

Yeah, quality is a hard term to define in here. I guess "finish" would be a better word. A fabric, plastic or leather may hold up well but in the look, and more importantly the feel, there can be big differences. Also, gaps and alignment also play a factor when I look at something and decide how much quality engineering and manufacturing quality control went into it. Switchgear is another area that can look very much the same but the feel is very different.

jplatt2 · July 2013

Everything CR does is better, didn't you know?

As far as I'm concerned, they are the only "tell it like it really is" publication still around. They won loyalty by telling the truth, it all comes down to trust. They've EARNED that trust over the years.

As far as I'm concerned, they are the only "tell it like it really is" publication still around. They won loyalty by telling the truth, it all comes down to trust. They've EARNED that trust over the years.

I've been a subscriber to Consumer Reports since 1988 but I do agree with others that there is a bias, and I have written to them about it.
Their top family car has been the Accord. For the previous generation Accord, except for the 2011 model year, the Accord only earned three stars on the rear passenger crash test, one of the few cars to earn such a low score. How can you recommend it as the top family car when family cars have children sitting in the rear? Just my luck, we had to take the car away from my mother-in-law and she had a 2010. Made my four foot son sit in a car seat in the middle.

Unless they have changed their practices, they sell the cars they test to their employees. Why not auction them off to the public to maximize their funding? Let's not put them on a pedestal.

thegraduate · July 2013

Yeah, quality is a hard term to define in here. I guess "finish" would be a better word. A fabric, plastic or leather may hold up well but in the look, and more importantly the feel, there can be big differences. Also, gaps and alignment also play a factor when I look at something and decide how much quality engineering and manufacturing quality control went into it. Switchgear is another area that can look very much the same but the feel is very different.
My first car was a 1996 Accord. The 90s were a time when fit, finish, and switchgear were second-to-none in Honda and Toyota offerings. Even Corollas and Civics felt like a million-bucks when you turned on your blinker. I had that car until 2011; it had 235,000 miles on it, averaged 30mpg, and had no mechanical issues when an 18-wheeler totaled it on I-65. I say that to explain that I completely understand what you mean! Hondas operate with an "oiled-precision" feel in the details that my Hyundai lacks.

The Sonata shows no age in how its switchgear operates. Admittedly, it lacks the finesse of the Accord when flipping on the high-beams (a noisy thunk with a plasticky feeling), or pushing the "A/C" button (there's no positive action, just a wiggly button - I've never liked that). But, in wear and tear, I have zero complaint. Everything functions as it did when I first bought the car. No burned-out bulbs, no scrapes or fading paint on button-graphics. I'm pleased, considering the bang for the buck. Everything functions as advertised 4.5 years and 108,000 miles later, and it looks and feels no worse for the wear.

kyrpto · July 2013

The mileage kickback $$ was Hyundai's idea.
Its good for the life of the car.
We got $160 back on our 2011 hybrid before we traded it on a 2013.

explorerx4 · July 2013

There is nothing in the CR statement that says each vehicle is tested exactly the same. They are all measured the same.
East Haddam is on Route 9, so I can see why they test at 65 mph. It is kind of hilly, so in some vehicles it's better to go a bit faster, so it doesn't downshift.
I can see why they don't do that, though.
Is it a good measurement? Who knows.

m6user · July 2013

There is nothing in the CR statement that says each vehicle is tested exactly the same.

I think it would be extremely stupid of CR to NOT test each vehicle the same. They're whole premise is unbiased and fair testing of products so why wouldn't they test cars the same when it seems every other thing that they test they test exactly the same for comparison purposes. Do they really have to spell something like that out? I guess there will be conspiracy theorists for everything unless they see with their own eyes.

explorerx4 · July 2013

Yes I am a skeptic and would need to see some evidence that the tests were substantially the same in any comparison.
I remember watching a video of 2 small pickups on a rock climbing test. Pickup A had an off road package and pickup B has street tires.
Conclusion? Pickup A was better than pickup B.
Were they measured the same? Yes, Fair test?
I'm expecting my Fusion to take about 10k to fully break in, based on the other Fords I own or have owned.

andres3 · July 2013

Safety is but one factor. Rear seat side impact safety further dissects that narrow factor; it is such a minuscule issue in the grand scheme of things.

That being said, CR weighs safety heavily, and despite that, the Honda's have always scored well, probably because they are extremely safe cars in the grand scheme of things. Also, in the past they've led the competition by such a grand margin that one thing like rear-side safety would be overshadowed and outweighed.

akirby · July 2013

CR lost all credibility when they gave the Tesla 99 out of 100 even though it has a ginormous touch screen in the center of the dash after they killed Ford for MFT.

m6user · July 2013

Maybe Tesla's touchscreen actually works well. CR is, by far, not alone in their criticism of MFT. It's pretty widespread and that is why Ford is backtracking and now going to put knobs and dials back in soon. They just gave Chevy Impala huge kudos so I'm sure that upsets a Ford fan as well. Don't let your obvious love of Ford color your subjectivity. I like Ford just fine and think they have done some very good things but they have also screwed up royally at times just like everybody else. Cars are so complex it's impossible to be perfect.

crkyolfrt · July 2013

Hang in there m6, you're doin' good..

If only Ford deserved the level of blind loyalty I've read in the last few pages.. :P

akirby · July 2013

They dislike MFT because you have to take your eyes off the road (according to them). The Tesla is far worse in that regard yet it gets praised. This has nothing to do with Ford. CR tries hard but they still have biases and inconsistencies. Look at the 2013 Escape. A few months ago it was mid pack yet in the current issue it's #1. There is plenty of blame for Ford these days - just be consistent and logical about it.

crkyolfrt · July 2013

To be fair, akirby, even if many functions can be controlled from the steering wheel. I still maintain that with all the idiot-proofing that goes into modern vehicles, people are basically tactile in nature. They are use to 'hands-on' and while the functions may be there as potential hand's-on at the steering wheel, our basic human nature is to gravitate our hands to the area of the function that we want to control. So because of that, Ford should have had knobs at the scene of what they want to control, from the get-go..
I have spoken to many friends that are more comfortable reaching to the area of control that they have been most accustomed to for many many decades. So for Ford to assume that redundant steering wheel controls will be accepted by the masses, was naive at the very least, IMO.

akirby · July 2013

So by that logic the Tesla is even worse with no knobs at all, yet CR says it's a 99 out of 100. See the hypocrisy?

Again I'm not defending Ford. They've had problems. But that doesn't mean all the criticism is warranted or fair.

m6user · July 2013

I think part of the problem with Ford's MFT is that the function "buttons" on the screen are very small and there is so much going on that it is hard to put your finger in the exact spot necessary. When I test drove an Edge I noticed that a lot. The salesman was trying to get the voice commands to work but they didn't. No tactile feedback when you push the "button" also doesn't give you any assurance that the right spot was pushed so you look at the screen to figure it out and take your eyes off the road.

I haven't even sat in a Tesla(just seen pictures) so I can't comment on it too much. But obviously since CR found so much wrong with MFT, I'm sure they spent time making sure the Tesla's controls didn't have the same problems. It may be the difference between touching the screen on your smartphone versus touching huge characters on a 21" monitor. Big difference. There may be haptic (sp?)feedback on the Tesla as well which would give one some positive feedback. Like I said, I don't know that much about the Tesla controls. I would dare say you're not an expert on the Tesla either so it may be very premature for you to be calling anybody a hypocrite.

crkyolfrt · July 2013

I'm not defending Tesla or CR. Tesla has a loooong way to go. My first post in this
- edit- pardon me..I mean the Tesla thread indicated my some of my reservations with them. And CR has had questionable credibility in my memory from back when they condemned the Suzuki Samurai saying that it was too easy to roll over. I've owned 3 of them and while they are obviously not as well planted as other lower COG vehicles, I can absolutely assure any skeptics, that driver ERROR was behind any rollover. Some people simply shouldn't drive. I've seen CR get on other's cases too... much more recently than that and sometimes they just get a bug in their ear on some vehicles for a few years or so. They even went after Camry for something a few years ago and while I forget what it was, I do remember dismissing their beef at the time with similar conviction as the heat they put on Suzuki.

As for their fuel mileage testing, I'd vote for them to be as useful if not a bit moreso than EPA. Used together, I'd say a consumer should have a fair idea of expected FE when cross shopping.

Yes, haptic tech is probably standard fare on the Tesla..or given the price of them..it should be..

thegraduate · August 2013

They dislike MFT because you have to take your eyes off the road

And that it routinely crashes, reboots, freezes... It does everything but pee in your cheerios.

It's not a bad system intuition-wise... when it works. I do think deleting a true knob for volume and tuning is always a bad idea.

kyrpto · August 2013

Seems to be a huge problem that you have to navigate thru so many layers to operate the radio.
The BlueLink systems on Hyundais have simple controls for the radio.
Ford has had many, many, issues with MFT and if they are smart they will start from scratch.

And trusty Consumer Reports is but one among many that have pointed out the flaws with it.
Even John Davis on Motorweek has spoken about the problems in reviews of several different Ford products.

kyrpto · August 2013

"Hyundai: Real World Fuel Economy Improved To Meet Expectations, Not a Window Sticker

Many mid sized sedans include some version of an average mpg display.
On another Hyundai forum there have been many posts about it being incorrect on Sonata Hybrids because the odometer reading / gallons replaced calculation often produces a lower figure.
However, you cannot assume the odometer is accurate anymore than you can assume the average display is wrong.

From a number of long distance drives performed in the 2011 and 2012 Hyundai Sonata Hybrid, we have shown that the aFCD (averaging fuel consumption display) over reports by 2.0% compared to fuel consumed over odometer miles traveled.
Opposing that over report, the odometer/Trip A/B under reports miles traveled by slightly more than 2.0% leading to an overall slightly pessimistic display vs. actual fuel economy.

In other words, you receive slightly more than the display reveals.

link title"

Hyundais BlueDrive moniker is becoming a force in 2013 Sonata sales as consumers purchase the Hybrid 8.7% of the time, up from 7.5% in 2012.

Wayne Gerdes is the guy that drove a 2011 Sonata Hybrid coast-to-coast on two tanks of gas.

benjaminh · August 2013

the graduate wrote:

"My first car was a 1996 Accord. The 90s were a time when fit, finish, and switchgear were second-to-none in Honda and Toyota offerings. Even Corollas and Civics felt like a million-bucks when you turned on your blinker. I had that car until 2011; it had 235,000 miles on it, averaged 30mpg, and had no mechanical issues when an 18-wheeler totaled it on I-65. I say that to explain that I completely understand what you mean! Hondas operate with an "oiled-precision" feel in the details that my Hyundai lacks."

My first Accord was a 2002, but I know what you mean. The whole idea of the Accord, starting way back in 1976, was that middle class people could afford really well engineered and built cars.

That's really true with the 2013 Accord in my opinion. It's a big step up from my 08 Accord. I think of it as our "Acura Accord." I love the way the turn signal knob feels on this model so that it's very precise and elegant. They've even engineered the "blink" noise for the blinker to sound a little more upscale than the previous generation. So far the details on this generation seem impressive to my family.

jplatt2 · August 2013

Boy are you missing the point. The Accord is FAMILY sedan. Child safety is paramount and a recommendation for a family car should reflect that. Wonderful car though for couples without kids in the backseat. I have no problem now with CR recommending the new Accord since the redesign tests great.

ahightower · August 2013

Agreed. Rode in a buddy's '08 and it's impressive how many little things have been updated in my '13.

akirby · August 2013

CR's complaints about MFT had nothing to do with screen size or button size or placement. They said that it's dangerous because you have to take your eyes off the road to use it. There is nothing Tesla could have done with their touch screen to change that. Classic double standard. Personally I don't have a problem with either one.

I use MFT every day. I only use the touchscreen to go back and forth between navigation and entertainment and to change from usb drive to Sirius. I use the steering wheel controls to change the auto temp up or down, change the volume, change tracks or stations. I use voice control to select a playlist, artist or song from the usb drive. It's no worse than traditional controls.

Yes, MFT had tons of bugs and was almost unusable in some vehicles the first 6 months. It still has minor bugs and can be slow to respond. Could the addition of hard knobs help? Sure, especially with climate control.

But 80% of current MFT users/owners would recommend the system to others, so it can't be nearly as bad as CR and some of the other media make it out to be.

akirby · August 2013

And that it routinely crashes, reboots, freezes

The early versions - yes. Not the later versions. The current version is very stable with hardly any crashes or freezes being reported outside of a few people with hardware problems. A new update is due out next month or two that supposedly makes it much faster and even more stable with some GUI improvements as well.

The early criticism was well deserved but those major problems were fixed 18 months ago. I've had my 2013 Fusion with MFT since February and my daughter has had it in her 2012 Focus for over 18 months. I've never had a freeze or reboot and she hasn't had any since upgrading to the latest software a few months ago. Even before that it only happened about 3 times in 12 months.

akirby · August 2013

Seems to be a huge problem that you have to navigate thru so many layers to operate the radio.

Obviously you've never used it. You touch the lower left corner of the home screen and from that screen you can change sources, change stations and access all the other features. How is that "so many layers"?

If you're going to bash something at least spend a little time understanding it first.

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