Midsize Sedans 2.0

dudleyr · August 2013

CR says you have to take your eyes off too long - you have to take your eyes off even for knobs, just not very long.

Pretty sure CR understands MFT.

thegraduate · August 2013

Sadly it's still terrible to drive compared to its competition, or even its regularly. I wish they had fixed that. I was listening to the Autoblog podcast yesterday on my way home (episode #340 for those who are interested) and one of the cars they had for testing this week was a 2013 Sonata Hybrid Limited. They noted the improved economy, and horrendous driving experience, stating that the standard Sonata "while not the best car in the world, is a nice, competent vehicle" but that the hybrid was still woefully unrefined compared to Camry and Fusion Hybrid models.

kyrpto · August 2013

One guy specifically mentioned that he couldn't remember much since it had been a year since he drove it and the 2013 came out way after that.
And another reviewer admits he has a major bias towards this car.
Must be something to do with the highly subjective "fun to drive" nonsense that car & Driver relies on. Its a hybrid not a sports car but compared to a Prius it is like one.

But somebody did write this in an earlier review about the 2011 version:
While we were less than impressed with the Sonata Hybrid's fuel thrift, we were pleased with its overall driving dynamics.
At 3,578 pounds, the Sonata Hybrid is still light on its feet, with a structurally rigid chassis that doesn't flex at the slightest change of direction.
Power delivery is smooth and predictable, with an estimated 0-60 mph time of about nine seconds.

link title">link title

And check out what Wayne Gerdes thinks about these second gen hybrids for the real scoop.

jplatt2 · August 2013

This is from two of your earlier posts:

"I haven't even sat in a Tesla(just seen pictures) so I can't comment on it too much"

and

"There is nothing Tesla could have done with their touch screen to change that. Classic double standard."

and

"Obviously, you never used it".

and

"If you're going to bash something at least spend a little time understanding it first."

So you can judge the Tesla but other's can't judge MFT. That's what the rest of us call a double standard.

andres3 · August 2013

Your acting like an accident happens to every Accord ever made with kids in the back seat. That is an extremely rare event and to base ones decision solely on something that'll never likely happen is foolish in my opinion.

Also, side impacts are rare compared to rear enders.

benjaminh · August 2013

Camry 34,780
Accord 31,507
Altima 29,534
Fusion 20,522
Sonata 18,903
Optima 13,752
Malibu 12,473
Passat 10,051
200 8,122
Avenger 6,131
Mazda6 3,447
Legacy 3,142

explorerx4 · August 2013

Mazda better get that number by a factor of at least 10, or they are in trouble unless they re partner again.

akirby · August 2013

I was only referring to it being a touch screen and having to look at it to use it just like MFT. It wasn't about the design or functionality.

suydam · August 2013

Some touch screens are very easy to use and don't require you to take your eyes off the road, especially if they are angled towards the driver, like the Nissan Altima and Honda Accord. Also if they are large and intuitive to use. Not all touch screens are equal.

But it isn't a reason to disregard a car entirely. CR hated the BMW nav and radio interface (as did many) but they still liked BMW. It's just one factor. Same with Fusion. Same with Tesla. If you like the Fusion MFT, great. Others have really disliked it. Neither opinion says anything about CR. I may disagree with some reviewers' comments about a particular vehicle, but that doesn't mean everything they say is meaningless.

jplatt2 · August 2013

Your acting like an accident happens to every Accord ever made with kids in the back seat. That is an extremely rare event and to base ones decision solely on something that'll never likely happen is foolish in my opinion.

Also, side impacts are rare compared to rear enders.

So re-use the formerly top ranked crib for your child that has the drop side that is now outlawed because, after all, deaths from drop-side cribs are rare. And when someone's child is injured or killed when a driver runs a red light, their parents can take some solace that their car still has a large trunk. Guess I have a higher regard for children.

explorerx4 · August 2013

akirby · August 2013

I give up anyway. Everything I type gets twisted around.

m6user · August 2013

Why??? They made a really decent profit this last quarter as sales for the CX-5 and Mazda6 have doing very well. The new Mazda3 which is their bread and butter will hit dealaerships next month and that should be a huge success if all the reviews are correct and I have no reason to doubt them. Mazda is a much smaller company than the others so it doesn't take nearly as many sales to pay the overhead. Granted, they do need to sell more but saying they need to sell 10 times as many is #1 not going to happen even with a partner and #2 a little ridiculous. It's profits, not sales, that pays the light bills. GM had tons of sales and look where that got them.

[Deleted User] · August 2013

Thanks for that. From your writing I really got a sense of being in the Sonata Hybrid, looking over the displays and trying to get the best mpg possible.
It sounds like the car would encourage making changes in my driving style.

I am still trying to extract maximum performance from mine a lot of the time. It is a hard habit to break.

I bought my car on 12/28/2011, and at that time the reviews of the Optima Hybrid and it's sister Sonata Hybrid were not as refined as other systems in operation, but that is the ONLY thing they found wrong. So, I passed on the Hybrid and went with the $5500 cheaper Optima EX.

Here is the C/D June 2011 review of the Sonata Hybrid:

"The integration of the hybrid system is far less impressive. Regardless of throttle input, the car rolls away from stops in EV mode. At about 10 or 15 mph, the gas engine starts with a jolt, and the rate of acceleration changes abruptly. Under full throttle, engine startup often causes a tire chirp. When cruising with the engine off at higher speeds, acceleration happens in four distinct steps: 1. Max out electric motor. 2. Start gas engine. 3. Strain gas engine in higher gear. 4. Downshift and get moving. If this is what happens when you make your electric motor work harder, we understand why everyone else on the market takes it easier on them". -C/D

I hope that this has been worked out on subsequent 2012 - 2013 models. They are beautiful, mega hi-tech cars, for a quite reasonable price.

[Deleted User] · August 2013

Good post. It's just what people need to know when they are researching a new car and they come across information like this. Plus the fact that it is true. Even the 13 LX models look pretty nice. I am glad Honda finally got the picture and added things like alloys, rear view camera, and 160 watt Bluetooth / USB / AUX infotainment across all model lines.

I personally feel that between the Accord, Mazda 6, and Fusion; few will get buyers remorse.

Out of the rest, I would say *Passat, Optima/Sonata/Camry/Malibu are all equally good and will not let anyone down in operation, reliability, and value.

There are a couple more mid sizer's out there, but I feel that the ones I named are the relevant competitors.

*Passat having better handling and driving dynamics, as well as fit and finish than the last four. Again. It's IMO; and based on a composition of relevant articles, reviews, and owner statements.

kyrpto · August 2013

Hyundai outsells Honda in Japan.

The front end of a Sonata Hybrid actually looks more like a Mako shark.
Several Mazda's also sport this look as do some Aston-Martins.
So do several Audis.
And the Nissan GT-R has a very similar grill.

You want to see a really UG-Lee front end then check the first Subaru Tribeca.

kyrpto · August 2013

Hyundais outsell Hondas in Japan.
Probably due to the styling Honda designers currently seem to prefer.

Japanese are some of the most style conscious consumers on the planet so its easy to see why they snatch up the snazzy Korean products.

gee22 · August 2013

there may be some others out there but that Tribeca is the only car to have a signficant external redesign after only one year that I can recall

gee22 · August 2013

I was in Japan over 30 years ago and noted that the Japanese did not have a high regard for Koreans so I found it curious that they are now selling more Hyundais than Hondas in Japan.
Just did a search and according to the Economic Times, Hyundai stopped selling passenger cars in Japan in 2009 and only sells commercial vehicles now.
What is the source of your informatiion?

m6user · August 2013

"Despite having growing sales worldwide, Hyundai struggled in Japan, having sold only 15,000 passenger cars from 2001 to 2009.[64] Following an announcement on November 2009, Hyundai pulled their passenger car division out of the Japanese market and focused on their commercial vehicle division instead.[64] The company said that it is possible for them to come back to Japan fully if market conditions continue to improve."

Above is from wikipedia.

I think Honda sells more Fits in Japan in one month then Hyundai sold passenger cars in Japan in 8 years. I understand people being enamored with their car but, really........how ridiculous.

explorerx4 · August 2013

The Japanese companies got a profit bump from the dollar/yen exchange rate.
3500 Mazda 6's a month is not going to cut it.
There is are reasons they took on a partner before and there are reasons many import brands build cars in North America.
Madza needing to partner in order to survive is not an original thought by me.
If the exchange rate goes the other way, they could be in trouble.

gee22 · August 2013

You're right, 3,500 won't cut it long term.
Mazda has decided to build their brand via start-of-the-art technology/design (skyactiv platform), and quality (plant in Japan). This takes lots of bucks, leaving little for marketing. After building this foundation, money allocated to marketing will increase with the expectations that market share will increase. I think they are taking the wisest approach but only time will tell.

m6user · August 2013

They are opening a plant in Mexico(or have, not sure) and will be pumping Mazda3s out of there soon mainly because of the exchange rate you mention. I've read some of the same things you probably have. The right partner would be good. They absolutely have to sell more cars but your saying they have to sell 10 times as many Mazda6 is a little far out. There are also reasons why they don't have that partner anymore and it wasn't all Ford's idea. We agree on the concept....sell more cars. Just disagree on the scope. The Mazda3 is really their top moneymaker and the 6 has never been a huge seller. Right now they are basically selling the new Mazda6 about as fast as they can ship them over. They are scarce on dealer lots.

benjaminh · August 2013

I think Mazda is doing very well.

All of their new products are getting rave reviews.

The Mazda6 has even beaten the Honda Accord, the previous class-leader, in some comparison tests.

Mazda doesn't need to sell a lot. They just need to sell a good number and make a decent profit.

Mazda's engineering is on fire. Skyactiv is real.

I think Mazda is on a trajectory to steadily grow in the US for the next 3 years, even if they don't find a parter.

And I say all this as a Honda fan.

roadrunner70 · August 2013

Does anyone know how remove the door sills on a 2013 Optima? Thanks. rr70

thegraduate · August 2013

The steering is still the same. That is to say, it's numb but pleasant enough. It's the powertrain that's herky-jerky.

thegraduate · August 2013

The problem with the Optima and Sonata Hybrid models is that they use a conventional 6-speed automatic. While this transmission is fine in regular powertrains, it's not conducive for joining the electric and gasoline pieces together. CVTs marry the two together much more smoothly than a conventional torque-converter automatic.

They aren't bad cars, but the inherent flaw remains in place in the 2013 refresh of the hybrids - transmission design.

andres3 · August 2013

My brother-in-law has a 2009 4-cylinder Mazda 6, and based on that, I can tell you Mazda has a long way to go.

They aren't in the same quality tier or level as Honda or Toyota.

He's had dashbard/trim finish issues since early in the car's life.

It came with wheel covers instead of alloys.

It had no power going up hills in the hot desert this summer.

It handled all right; I'll give it that, but the engine was gutless.

Based on my observations (of his admittedly base level Mazda 6), I am not interested in what they are doing yet. It'll take time to earn that trust back. It seems they have improved without the weight of incompetent Ford on their shoulders. Using gas guzzling underpowered Ford motors was the worst thing Mazda ever did. Hated the old 3.0 V6 in a rental/loaner I had many years ago.

kyrpto · August 2013

When Hyundai's first Sonata Hybrid appeared in 2011 to boldly compete with the well-established Camry and Fusion hybrids it was roundly criticized for its lack of powertrain refinement, poor braking feel and mediocre fuel economy, much to Hyundai's dismay. But much to their credit, Hyundai focused on those problems for the 2013 Sonata Hybrid.
The result is a top-notch, fully competitive hybrid sedan.

The Sonata Hybrid has a conventional six-speed automatic in lieu of the CVT-type arrangement used by most other hybrids. It's been tweaked to make up- and down-shifts smooth and barely perceptible. Better yet, the Sonata Hybrid's six-speed eliminates the buzzy drone and disconnected feeling that's typical of CVTs, especially under hard acceleration.

http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/latest-reviews/2013-sonata-hybrid-solves-hyunda- - i-hybrid-problem-article-1.1413841

kyrpto · August 2013

The 2013 Sonata Hybrid features serious under-the-hood upgrades and modifications that make it more than just a rival to the Toyota hybrids, but a rival for the lead in its segment.

Other hybrids use a quirky CVT to meld the electric and gas motors together, but Hyundai insists on using a more traditional six-speed automatic. In the past, the transmission seemed easily confused, resulting in harsh shifts at inopportune times.

The new Sonata Hybrid has a sense of refinement which is on par with Toyotaâs Camry Hybrid. The transition from electric-to-gas, then back to electric is smooth, and hardly noticeable on the road.
Thereâs very little shift-shock as the clutch engages the gas motor
while the car is moving.

A key feature that the Sonata has over its Japanese rival comes with how it drives. The ride is communicative without being too stiff and uncomfortable. Additionally, there is far more steering feel here than whatâs offered on the Camry, which is floaty and vague.

By improving its powertrain, the Sonata Hybrid hits all its marks when it comes to a mid-sized, hybrid family sedan. Itâs fuel friendly and affordable, while maintaining the standard Sonataâs solid driving dynamics and unique style.

Picking the best mid-sized hybrid sedan is no longer a choice between the best fuel economy (Camry Hybrid) and good looks (Fusion Hybrid). Hyundaiâs updated Sonata Hybrid blends it all together for a photo-finish.

http://www.autoguide.com/manufacturer/hyundai/2013-hyundai-sonata-hybrid-review-- - - 2593.html

backy · August 2013

Why base your opinion of Mazda on a five-year-old design when the all-new 2014 Mazda6 has been out for awhile? It would be like comparing the 2008 Accord to the latest designs. It would not fare well in that comparison.

I can't think of a single mid-sized family sedan that had alloys standard in its base trim in 2009. It's like you are blaming Mazda for your BIL's decision to buy a base Mazda6.

ivan_99 · August 2013

I drove the 2009 Mazda 6 when they first came out. I loved their manual; best I've ever driven. The 6cyl/auto had a huge amount of power.

But I agree, when I drove a subsequent car, the VW CC (4cyl), it totally outclassed the 6. The VW was more expensive, comparatively, and at that point only had an auto...but I really liked it (Didn't buy either)

I haven't seen or driven a new 6 (not in the market); they do look very impressive.

gee22 · August 2013

Actually, you didn't go far enough in your compariosn. It's more than comparing a 2008 Accord to a 2013 Accord since that is all Honda engineering. It's comparing an old Ford design to a completely new philosophy.

m6user · August 2013

Well, you have to admit when you stated that Hyundai sells more cars in Japan than Honda you sort of lost credibility.

wayne21 · August 2013

I don't fault him. I believe that less than half of what is written in these blogs is true. IDK why, but people just seem to not be able to tell the truth. It's not like we know one another or live nearby. The idea is to help people, but some people just can't break their habit of stretching the truth or just out and out lying. You just have to filter it out.

kyrpto · August 2013

and I did not notice that before I posted it.

link title

And I provide as many links as anyone to support my positions, like the reviewers' comments on the buzzy and quirky nature of CVTs.

Others, most notably the graduate, just post subjective opinions with no backup. He's also thrown down some misinformation about a recent podcast which I proved he fabricated.
He, no doubt, has never even driven a Sonata hybrid.

Now where's that passport . . . . .

scwmcan · August 2013

Old info and the only place it was reported at that, there was something mentioned in other articles about Hyundai having greater sales worldwide than all but Toyota but no one else reported that they outsold Honda and Nissan in Japan itself, it seems to be something that may have been lost in translation by the people in your link. It would be very strange for Hyundai to be second in sales in Japan and then pull out of e market. I believe some posted the sales numbers for about a decade for Hyundai in Japan above and it didn't amount to much ( no foreign automakers sell too many units compared the the Japanese automakers anyway, not just a problem for Hyundai) so I am sorry but your source appears to be incorrect.

gee22 · August 2013

c'mon, even if it had been true, that article was from 2009. You implying you didn't notice that?

backy · August 2013

Read my post again. I didn't compare the 2008 Accord to the 2013 Accord.

In this case, the OP was comparing a five-year-old Mazda design to other, unspecified, cars. The 2009 Mazda6 was the first year of the previous-generation Mazda6. The 2008 Accord was the first year of the previous-generation Accord.

kyrpto · August 2013

I saw the 09/10 date but in my zeal to defend this car - Im on my second one - posted it anyway because I was getting tired of seeing the graduate inaccurately dissing on a car he really doesnt know squat about.
Heh, I fessed up on this source but the majority of the links Ive referenced are recent.

The 2013 Sonata hybrids are a screaming deal and from personal experience I know the drive train issues are solved.
They continue to sell well - with the Kia version included, the Koreans sold over 3,400 in the US July.

http://www.hybridcars.com/july-2013-dashboard/

kyrpto · August 2013

The 2013 Hyundai Sonata Hybrid ranks 3 out of 20 Affordable Midsize Cars.

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/Hyundai_Sonata-Hybrid/

Hybrids compared:

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/compare/?trims=12214-349885_121- 57-353068_12162-355788

The 2013 Accord came in 7th.

m6user · August 2013

but in my zeal to defend this car

It's not like somebody is beating up your kid or insulting your wife.....it's just a car. Jeeesh.

gee22 · August 2013

backy, what's your problem? You had a good post, my point was you could take it even further. You said "It would be like comparing the 2008 Accord to the latest designs" and I take "latest designs" to mean the 2013 model.
My point was though you had a good analogy, I could make an even stronger one to explorerx4.

backy · August 2013

You can make whatever point you want to explorerx4. I was replying to a post from someone else.

benjaminh · August 2013

1. Accord
2. Fusion
3. Optima
4. Camry
5. Sonata

"Our reviewers see the Sonata as missing out on key touches. "Hyundai's not there yet on crisp, balanced handling," Healey said. "The Sonata still rides on the busy side," Mays noted, "picking up highway ruts that others filter out." "While the engine is peppy, powertrain refinement is not on par with the rest of these cars," Robinson said. "This one feels tight to me because of the seat bolsters," Raquel Girvin said. "No backup camera in the Sonata," Varela asked. "Huh. I would have expected more from Hyundai."

The verdict: "The Sonata won our last Family Sedan Shootout, but that was mostly due to the dynamic styling and the fact that it had a lot more features than most for the money," Robinson said. "Well, the styling is no longer that dramatic and most of these cars are very well-equipped, so it's firmly mid-pack in this comparison."

http://www.cars.com/go/crp/buyingGuides/Story.jsp?referer=&year=New&section=Seda- n&story=26k_sedanResult&subject=stories

gee22 · August 2013

I stand corrected, it was andres3 where you made your 2008 to "latest design" Accord comparison that I was commenting on.
Considering I was supporting you, I'm curious how you will handle a response that is contrary to your opinion.

benjaminh · August 2013

http://www.komonews.com/news/consumer/Worsening-car-blind-spots-150535205.html?t- - - - ab=video&c=y

"Worsening car blind spots

If you're having a hard time seeing out of your car, you're not alone. Cars designed with high trunks and hoods and low, sloping rooflines give a sleek appearance on the outside but can cause visibility problems from the inside.

Consumer Reports tests cars for blind spots and says the new designs are making things much worse. It's a problem not only in traffic but also in driveways and parking lots.

Wide rear pillars and smaller back windows make it especially hard to see out the back, even when you turn your head around. More than 200 people die every year in accidents by drivers who did not see them, and many of those are children.

Consumer Reports tests rear visibility and finds that some cars are seriously lacking it, especially for drivers who are short.

The Hyundai Sonata sedan has a blind zone of 21 feet....

benjaminh · August 2013

Many have said that the new Accord's styling is conservative if not boring. Perhaps true. But it's also true that it's a "form follows function" design. Other things being equal, it is good to have good visibility. Many would say yes. Others would go for more expressive styling. Everyone gets to make their own choices. But there is a logic behind the way the Accord is styled, and a reason it's similar to a BMW in terms of having thin roof pillars made of high grade steel. This review from the business magazine Forbes emphasizes that point.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewdepaula/2012/12/31/test-drive-2013-honda-acco- - rd-really-satisfies/

"Matthew de Paula, Contributor

Test Drive: 2013 Honda Accord Really Satisfies

....a four-cylinder Honda Accord leaving a sports car in the dust does say something: Despite being grossly out of its element on a racetrackas shown by how much the car leaned when changing directionsthis midsize sedan is so well engineered that it maintains poise even when being flung about.

More importantly to car buyers, all of the engineering upgrades that make the new Accord perform better than expected on a racetrack also give it a quieter, smoother and more responsive ride in everyday driving.....

The 2013 model is so much improved that its in another league entirely. For the new Accord, we went back to zero and started from the beginning with everything, says Shoji Matsui, chief engineer for the Accord

A little over half of the steel used in the new Accords underlying body is high tensile, which makes the car markedly more rigid while cutting 57 pounds. The difference can be felt in the cars agility....

Excellent outward visibility only enhances the sense of safety. Many car manufacturers continue to favor style over practicality by designing flashy cars with small windows, higher belt lines and thicker roof pillars (read more about such design disasters here). Kudos to Honda engineers for keeping the windows tall, belt line relatively low and front roof pillars as thin as possible. Every new Honda Accord also gets larger side mirrors and a rearview camera to further aid visibility....

The styling of the new Accord has grown on me. It definitely looks better than the previous model, thanks largely to the redesigned front end that has been trimmed down to achieve a more athletic look and to give the driver a better view of the road ahead.

The clean, simple styling and slim headlightswhich use LEDs on the top Touring model, a feature typically found only on luxury carsrecall Accords from the 1980s and 90s. Compared to more extroverted designs like those of the Hyundai Sonata and Kia Optima, the new Accord might seem bland. But this is a family sedan, not a sports car, and its handsome, restrained appearance will continue to look good long after other designs become outdated...."

backy · August 2013

"Go ahead... make my day."

Don't get all bent out of shape just because I wondered what in heck you were talking about in your posts.

mtnman1 · August 2013

"The styling of the new Accord has grown on me. It definitely looks better than the previous model, thanks largely to the redesigned front end that has been trimmed down to achieve a more athletic look and to give the driver a better view of the road ahead."

For the first time ever I will make a blasphemous statement and agree that I actually like the appearance of the new Accord. I've always loathed Honda (mainly because the vehicles are so boring), but when it comes time to replace my 2009 Fusion the Accord may be on my short list. I read that Car and Driver rated the new Malibu as the best riding as far as interior quietness and a comfortable ride. Slowest off the line though and Fuel efficiency lacks. That's what impressed me about the Honda was the MPG rating and the quickness of the 4 cylinder. Plus for the first time the Accord looks pretty good.

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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