Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Midsize Sedans 2.0

1371372374376377544

Comments

  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    I was an '03 V6/5AT Accord Coupe owner and had transmission troubles past the 36K mile mark and warranty period. It is simply not true that you had to raise sheer hell. If you had done a service or two at the dealer (showing good maintenance history that they could easily verify), you could bring your car in on a Monday, get a loaner free of charge, and they'd install a new transmission assembly replacement and have you on your way Wednesday afternoon.

    And by the way, they warrantied most of those either another 36K or to 100K miles.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    edited August 2013
    Fusion is going on a road trip.
    Moving our college age kid, senior year, out to school 800 miles one way.
    We are taking 2 vehicles, kid's '04 Escape and the '13 Fusion.
    Good news:
    My sister lives about halfway there on the route we would take anyway and I am stopping to pick up a table and 4 chairs she got cheap at a tag sale.
    Bad news:
    I have to drive the Escape to pick it up. That sucker is noisy on the highway.
    Wife and daughter get to drive the Fusion and it will get much better mileage.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • wayne21wayne21 Member Posts: 259
    They had a class action suit on the transmissions and extended the warranty to 100k on all of them - 4 and 6 cyl. My 4 cyl accord had 3 rebuilt transmission put in it and each time they put in a new one they gave a 3/36 warranty on it. As for the civic hybrid with the CVT - it was a disaster. That's my fear of buying an accord - long history of transmission problems and the only cvt I'm aware of was their civic hybrid. IDK if they've gotten it together or not with the transmissions. I forgot that I'd driven one months ago. I forgot that it was an accord as my memory was on the salesman with the dollar store cologne, slicked back oily hair, and his infinite wisdom on all subjects - albeit it was obvious he was poorly educated. I couldn't get away fast enough. But, I do remember experiencing what motortrend mentioned on their first drive and wind noise above my ear:
    The only complaint is that it's a little jerky at parking lot speeds; something we hope is unique to our pre-production test cars.
    www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1209_2013_honda_accord_first_test/viewall.ht- ml#ixzz2bUlmMoex

    I've read quite a few blogs on the VCM and using oil seems to be a frequent complaint. For whatever reason, it seems cylinder #3 gets soaked with oil. I think Honda, like all manufacturers, has its share of problems. What keeps their value up is the incredibly low fleet number sales - about 1 percent - which is very small compared to other companies. Three years down the road if you want to sell your car you have to compete with the fleet sales and that's where Honda really shines - very few fleet sales to compete with.
  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 4,676
    The pre 2006 civic hybrids had some problems with the CVT, but I don't believe that there have been an unusually large number post 2006. And all CVT technology has greatly improved for all models. But if it makes you nervous buy something else. All auto guides I have seen have no hesitation recommending cars with CVT ( some of them may not like how they drive but that's another and more subjective matter) .
    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    First - that index DOES measure 3 yr old cars, not new ones. You're thinking of initial reliability - different measurement than the dependability study.

    And yes that was a math error. Redoing the math says the difference between 3rd place and 27th place on a single vehicle over 3 years is 2 problems instead of one 40% of the time.

    That's pretty close in my book and wouldn't sway me away from something I liked. Or are you just looking for an excuse to bash Detroit?
  • ricovanianricovanian Member Posts: 14
    Just got a new Sonata today- I am noticing a really rough ride- feeling every bump on the road- is there a "break-in" period for suspensions, tires and shocks?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Check the tire pressure. They overinflate them for shipment and sometimes the dealer forgets to lower it for delivery.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    3 years is nearly new to me IMHO. I meant what I said and I stand by it.

    JD Powers is pretty much a paid-for advertisement. Doing pseudo studies on 3 year old cars works well for Detroit's short bumper to bumper warranties and "planned obsolescence" methodology and culture.

    CR routinely reports on 7 year old cars; which provides much more useful and relevant data on what dependability really means.

    Frankly, even my Dodge in the mid-nineties might have garnered a blank dot from me on its 3rd birthday, but by the 4th year it would have had a solid black dot from me.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2013
    So, I took it in for it's 4th oil change, at 20,700 miles. I gotta tell you, the weak spot in owning a Kia product is their service department. The last time I took my Optima in, it took three visits for them to replace the latch on the center console lid. Not good.

    While I was waiting, my service writer showed me the cabin air filter, (shockingly) full of debris and said it cost $59 for the filter, plus $20 to put it in. I found it for $7.99 at Advance, and put it in myself in less than 5 minutes.

    The blunder is that they left a 10" part of the cabin filter system lying on top of my dashboard, and screws in the cup-holder. I found them after already driving halfway back home. Also, they my car on a busy street with all the windows down - greasy fingerprints everywhere, in the drivers side of the interior, keys in open view and with my Garmin on the windshield, smudges all over the hood, no protectors on the floor or steering wheel, and 5 more miles on the odometer. I only told them about the left out parts and whanot and they were cool about it. I never got angry or combative and was really nice to them, and they made it right......but, I am going to a different Kia dealer next time. No more Fairfax Kia.
  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 4,676
    That is truly horrible. I'm surprised that they don't wash your car as part of the service. Both the Nissan and Honda service departments do where I live. And they put the car on their lot, not the street. Sheesh!
    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2013
    Yes I saw that too. Dodge had 126 problems per 100 cars, based on this graph, which is just about right. LOL.

    Hey, thanks everyone for the wiper blade advice. I went to Advance to select new blades, but they were all overpriced, based on research I did prior to visiting the store.

    I am going to price them at Walmart today, as I really need to buy at a local retailer since my vacation trip is Sunday and I have no time to wait for shipping. The blades are streaking though, and are two years old. I need new ones.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    > 10" part of the cabin filter system lying on top of my dashboard, and screws in the cup-holder. I found them after already driving halfway back home.

    That sounds like revenge--didn't get commission on the filter and labor for the mechanic, so he/she left it disassembled. Sort of equivalent to the urban tales about UAW workers sabatoging cars on the assembly line?

    I would have been furious about the grease and the keys on public street parking.

    Is the latch problem a symptom of a really poor/cheap design for that latch, or is it an anomaly that just went wrong. Sounds like dealer problem that it didn't get fixed the first time and the dealer experience is hurting the car quality experience.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    If you got the SE you got a sport suspension which will ride as you described. The GLS and Limited has a softer ride.
  • They don't even have a car wash at the Kia dealer. They contract with a retail facility about a mile away.

    I looked for the freshened 2014 Optima, but there were none as they had 50 of the 2013's still on the lot. The 2014's are due to hit the showrooms starting in October but this was a guess from the salesman. The Optima's big brother Cadenza is a beautiful car in person. I am still not thrilled with the grill, but other than that it is gorgeous. I sat behind the wheel for a few minutes, adjusted the seat, and checked out how it lights up. Very classy.
    Sticker prices ranged from $35,900 to $42,400. An Optima SX-L tops out at $35,000, making Cadenza an attractive alternative.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    If you still think Ford, GM and Chrysler vehicles fall apart after 5 years then this discussion is pointless, especially if you're going to ignore facts and think JD Power info is useless.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    I think all the vehicles are pretty reliable according to the JD power VDS rankings

    The average is 126 problems per 100 vehicles.

    So if your vehicle is rated 100 or 200 you're still making a visit to the dealer to get something fixed. If you have a Lincoln you say "Please fix this"...if you have a Dodge you say "Please fix this, and that".

    As long as the problems aren't critical, i.e. your tranny, then I see no problem choosing one lower on the list (for whatever reason).
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited August 2013
    Really like the CVT so far. Nice acceleration. Very good mpg.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • ricovanianricovanian Member Posts: 14
    yep- that did the trick- the tires were waaaaaaay overinflated
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    In my experience modern cars don't fall apart with time. Engines can go 150K with just normal service.

    What typically happens is you get a bad part that's either manufactured incorrectly (by mfr or usually an outside supplier) or doesn't meet spec or was engineered incorrectly. Once that is identified and fixed the problem doesn't reoccur.

    My 06 Fusion would be 8 years old now and it was still in mint condition inside and out. Nothing worn out and no rattles. Only one repair in 7 years - a broken door handle. $60 and 15 minutes to repair.
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 19,032
    No break-in for suspension components. They only get worse/looser over time. I fear what you are experiencing is typical of Hyundai chassis tuning. They are just not as good as other manufacturers in that department.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 19,032
    That sounds almost like my Buick dealer in 2010. They have since gone out of business, deservedly so.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    Took my Mom's Fiesta in for an oil change and while I was waiting I grabbed a Ford financial report. It did mention some 2013 models in it.
    One interesting thing I noticed was that the Mondeo, Euro version of Fusion, is available with the 2.0 Ecoboost and a 6 speed manual trans.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Also available with a diesel. Europeans buy a lot of manuals. If more americans would buy them more mfrs would offer them here.
  • Neither. All the mechanics are kids. This is where the company needs the most work. It isn't 1999 anymore, and Kia is making competitive products, but a very short while ago no one WANTED to be a Kia mechanic.

    Turning wrenches for Kia was a place you start your career, or end it...(which is worse) . So, now they have to train and get better quality people that know the product. I had a problem last time I was there because of mechanic error, and that was a warranty issue so he gets paid for that...and this time the kid was all of 20 yrs old and rushed through the job. It was just a center console latch, but they installed the cover from an LX, not an EX. Then tried to tell me that was the right part number, until I walked 5 feet and opened the door of an EX an showed them. The THEY had an attitude.

    I do have the option of going to the Hyundai dealer across the street. So, this dealer struck out, and it's nice to know that I didn't burn any bridges with Fairfax Kia in case I need them (god forbid) in an emergency for warranty work. I just need to make them walk around the car with me before I accept the keys 100% of the time.
  • Quote "In my experience modern cars don't fall apart with time"

    My neighbors bought a 2004 Camry as a second car. It has 130k on it. a month ago we swapped cars and went for a drive down some twisty roads nearby, as he was concerned about vibration at the wheel and squealing noises.

    His front end is shot. Both half shafts were worn out, and the reason for his visit to the shop is the water pump died. Also, the CV joints were shot too.

    Bearings are wearing down every time we drive our cars, whether it is wheel bearings or the bearings in the alternator or water pump, or the main bearings at the crank, there is constant degradation.

    Internal combustion engines operate by controlled explosions forcing pistons down and rotating a crank which drives the wheels...it is going to wear out, some faster than others.

    I know you know this kirby, but I couldn't let the comment stand. Cars wear out.

    I realize you know
  • I agonized over buying new wiper blades as my 2 year old stock units were overdue for replacement.

    I finally went with the new blade style Bosch wipers; and man I am totally happy with them. They work better than my OEM old style metal frame units...and one wipe did the work it would take my stock units 5 or 6 wipes. Working in conjunction with the Rain-X I use, all I have to say is "mother nature, bring it on"!!

    Money well spent, and the Bosch units are a long-wear design, guaranteed to work twice as long as the other brands. We will see about that claim.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I've used Bosch Icon exclusively for a couple of years now. I've only bought them twice because they last about 12 months before they start to have streaks. Worth the $22-$24 per blade because they don't hop, skip, or jump at speed, regardless of how wet or dry the windshield is. Previous blades I've bought have always started to hop, making a lot of noise, after a few months. Not these.

    I'm now a wiper snob. Considering how much rain we've had in the southeast this summer, it's money well-spent to me.
  • ahightowerahightower Member Posts: 539
    Had a new Fusion as a rental car for one day. Base trim, base engine, so I'm sure most individual buyers' are a bit nicer. But talk about a chintzy interior. And that thing was cramped. Narrow seat, clunky center console taking up all the knee space, dead pedal made to fit a woman's size five. Very small back seat with driver scooted back. Might as well get a Focus.

    I'm spoiled by my Accord with its large interior and quality materials and attractive gauges and center screen in lower-mid-level Sport trim.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    If you still think Ford, GM and Chrysler vehicles fall apart after 5 years then this discussion is pointless,

    ________________

    I don't think that. I think they fall apart after 3 years when the bumper to bumper warranty runs out!

    In all honesty, I don't think Chrysler has changed one iota, but GM and Ford have improved a lot. Also, I don't think GM and Ford ever sunk to the depths of Chrysler, at any point or time in history. Grouping them all into the lousy Big 3 does a disservice to GM and Ford.

    Feel free to offer all takers a free extended warranty on all domestic car purchases for forum participators here though. Put your money where your mouth is; at least to 103,000 miles. On my Audi it would have cost me about $600 to provide that warranty from 50,000 miles.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    I test drove the new Mazda 6 yesterday in hopes of finding a legitimate competitor to the home run Accord redesign.

    The Mazda 6 is vastly improved, but it's still less horsepower, higher real world cost, and less bang for the buck than the Honda.

    The Honda Accord Sport has a good notch better interior, in materials, styling, and fit & finish. More HP. The transmissions were very close, but I'm going to side with the Honda. The Honda just felt lighter and swifter on its feet, but it's close. Both good cars, but Honda's got it all over Mazda.

    Mazda dealer wanted sticker. Honda dealer willing to give away at invoice.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    "Cars wear out."

    Of course they do. I was referring to what we used to have in the 80s where the entire vehicle would fall apart before 100K miles. Literally. A modern car can go 150K miles with only normal maintenance and replacement of wear parts like shocks and brake pads. As for the water pump failure - had he ever changed the coolant? Or checked the CV boots? Without proper maintenance you'll have more failures.

    But implying that cars fall apart after 3 years is ludicrous.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    As long as the problems aren't critical, i.e. your tranny, then I see no problem choosing one lower on the list (for whatever reason).
    _____________________

    What makes you think the problems are not critical? JD Powers doesn't distinguish between normal brake dust and short-lived Chrysler transmissions.

    I can't remember a repair that cost me less than $200, and they came in at a rate of 3 or 4 per year; without fail after the warranty was up.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Cramped and chintzy are two words I've never heard about the 2013 Fusion, even in base trim.

    I'm 5'11" 250 and I have tons of knee space and leg room.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    Didn't say they weren't critical...as-long-as..."As long as the problems aren't critical" :)

    I'm not certain if JD Powers just 'counts' problems or assigns a weight to the problem.

    I do agree, giving equal weight to an Audi glove compartment latch that needs adjusting and a Chrysler tranny blowing up does seem to make the ranking useless.

    Of course, even if the problems were the same (such as a tranny), there's cost too (out of warranty that is). I suspect the Porsche trannies will be more expensive to repair than the Chrysler's.

    There doesn't seem to be one established source that can give a definitive answer on reliability. With most repair shops (the legit ones) being computerized I'm certain all the data is available; somebody just needs to access it all and merge it into a central repository...maybe the NSA can do this for us :)
  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 4,676
    Consumer Reports groups types of comparable problems and lists each separately.
    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 19,032
    This is from the Christian Science Monitor (!) but there are many sources on the net, announced today:

    "The first Hyundai recall involves approximately 240,000 Sonata and Azera sedans manufactured between 2005 and 2011 and sold in the District of Columbia and 20 US states: Connecticut, Delaware, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont, West Virginia, and Wisconsin.

    According to the NHTSA filing, the salt used on roads during colder weather in these states could rust the steel undersides of the vehicles, which could cause misalignment of the rear wheels.

    Affected models include 2006 to 2010 Sonatas manufactured between March 1, 2005, and Jan. 21, 2010, and 2006 to 2011 Azera sedans manufactured between Sept. 27, 2005, and Nov. 22, 2010."

    More evidence that you get what you pay for.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    Connecticut doesn't use salt anymore. The stuff they use now attacks rubber, so you have to go to the car wash once a month in the winter to clean the bottom of the car.
    The first couple of years, I didn't get my primary winter vehicle washed and ended up replacing 2 pinion seals and a rear axle seal.
    This last winter I took it once a month and no leaks.
    Could be coincidence.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 4,676
    Recalls just mean they recognize a problem and are dealing with it. It's not necessarily an indication of a troublesome car. Winter roads are tough on cars but not nearly as bad as they used to be.
    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    A few years ago Toyota had way more recalls than any other mfr including truck frames that rusted IN HALF! Didn't hurt their reputation.
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 19,032
    True. But it should have. People believe what they want to believe.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 4,676
    "More recalls than any other manufacturer" -- any evidence for that statement?
    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    2010 - Toyota recalled 7.1M vehicles - almost twice GM who was in second place with 4M.

    http://www.guajardolawfirm.com/faq/in-texas-and-nationwide-which-car-company-has- -issued-the-most-recalls.html
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    But those bad truck frames were made by a US supplier and shown to not meet Toyota specifications.

    True, Toyota has ultimate responsiblity, but this is why it's smart to buy the one's made in Japan, not the one's made in the USA. Another example is the US made gas pedal assemblies were the ones that may have caused some SUA incidents (but not accidents; that's driver error, put it in neutral or turn off the car!).

    Lexus is number one on JD Powers and is widely accepted as the most reliable car brand in all of history for decades now. Their IS 350 is 100% made in Japan with 100% Japanese parts and assembly; that's impressive. All Lexus' are apparently made in Japan except for a few RX's.

    Doesn't surprise me why they are always number 1 now. Makes sense. I've never seen 100% Japanese on a car until the 2014 IS 350.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 4,676
    You also have to look at what the recalls are for. One was for a power window switch. One recently was for an air bag design flaw that Toyota actually fixed vehicles going back over 10 years, long out of warranty. My Pontiac Vibe was involved in that one and its 9 years old. To me that's a company standing by their products and making things right. Neither of these recalls involved any actual injuries, just a potential identified problem.
    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • kyrptokyrpto Member Posts: 216
    The 2013 Sonata hybrid’s acceleration and fuel-economy improvements are quantifiable and worth mentioning, but the car’s better-integrated drivability makes a significant difference.

    We already liked the smooth electric drive-off feel and the fact that the Sonata hybrid forgoes the usual wheezy CVT for a more-pleasing six-speed step-gear automatic, but Hyundai really hit the books to work out the kinks and smooth transitions between electric and gas-engine hybrid modes.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2013
    As I said he bought it used, and was one of those people who ABSOLUTELY BELIEVES that 130,000 miles on a Camry is nothing, and the car will run 250-300,000 miles with no problem, with little maintenance. He can't understand why the belts are squealing and the front end is shaking and the rotors are warped, because it's a TOYOTA. Toyota has this reputation all over the world too. It sells a lot of cars with that blind belief.

    That is why I wrote about the Camry reliability in the first place. They have won the hearts and minds of many, even though their product needs just as many repairs as it's peers on average.

    Personally Kirby, I have never needed anything other than regular maintenance on every car I have ever owned while still making payments, except for my 1987 Chevy Z24. I have had cars break down less than 30 days from my final payment. Many times.

    Things that make you go Hmmmm. LOL.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2013
    Damn, that bites! Why don't you swap cars every time you stop along the route? I have been really looking forward to my first long road trip with the Optima, especially to see how she does with MPG/FE, and I can't imagine having to let my wife drive it! If I needed to pick up furniture, I would have to drive our giant old 2003 Ford F-150 quad cab, with a 5.4 liter V8, and at best it gets 17 mpg. It usually just sits until someone in the family needs to move or or whatever. It's handy. My wife usually just drives my elderly mothers 2010 Kia Forte' EX.

    The Bosch Advantage beam-style wiper blades I installed are killer, especially in conjunction with the Rain-X. Today was the first morning that I got to use them, and I was blown away. I am buying them for my wife and my mother as soon as we get back from Myrtle Beach.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >But those bad truck frames were made by a US supplier...

    Of course they were. :grin

    >and shown to not meet Toyota specifications.

    Of course they didn't. :grin

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    Back in 2002 I was car shopping and had a chance to drive a 2003 Camry with leather. What I remember was an almost creamy smooth engine and transmission. Quiet and solid. It was a 4 cylinder and I was very impressed. I think MSRP was mid 20's. I needed a bigger car and ended up with a 2002 Chrysler Concorde Limited which had a huge trunk and nice interior. Trouble free for 80k miles. Back to the 03 Camry. I rented a new 2013 in February and it was totally different from the 03. VERY firm ride and very noticeable engine noise. Maybe my memory on the 03 is faulty -- anyone have a comment ?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I don't think recalls are necessarily bad either - just pointing out that even mighty Toyota who some people think are perfect can have a bad year with recalls.
Sign In or Register to comment.