Midsize Sedans 2.0

ab348 · October 2013

Believe it or not, there are actually Canadian automotive forums, where issues of car ownership in Canada are discussed by Canadians. Even the Mazda fans there concede the rusting issue on the 3 and even the early 5 was a serious one. And living in the salt belt of Canada it is not uncommon to see rusty Mazdas running around on the roads. The 6 seemed less affected by the rust issue (perhaps due to the manufacturing plant being different) but there is no question that resale values lag the Camcords.

If you care to Google "Mazda 3 rust" you will see the evidence you claim is lacking.

m6user · October 2013

I never said it didn't happen. My comment were only meant to say that a lot of people like to live in the past as long as it agrees with their agenda. I am not a huge Mazda supporter but feel it does get bad press for something that happened several years ago that doesn't apparently affect today's cars. Do Hondas problems with transmissions greatly affect today's Hondas? I think not. And Honda did not address that problem with transparency at first either.

ab348 · October 2013

Not the same issue though. The Honda transmissions were breaking early on. Rust, by its very nature, takes time before you know it is a problem. It is a LONG-TERM issue. So you cannot declare it fixed until that time has passed. Frankly, nobody knows yet whether it is fixed or not. That doubt is hurting Mazda sales. As for it matching someone's agenda, I fail to see how Mazda loyalists reporting on the issue is agenda-driven. The only "agenda" they have is getting their rusty car fixed by Mazda Canada, which was remarkably unhelpful and unresponsive in many cases - another useful data point, incidentally.

m6user · October 2013

I have heard of people that had two different transmissions replaced 30k to 40k apart. That's hardly "early on". I'm sure it was very, very frustrating to go through one tramsmission replacement after initially being told there was no problem only to have it happen again 30k miles later. But to your point, Honda did eventually live up to it. I follow the Mazda3 in the Edmunds forums here and I have not read that much about rust problems with cars manufactured in the last 8 years or so. Our Mazda6(over 100k and Chicago area driven) is over 6 years old and doesn't have a speck of rust on it. It is a commuter car and doesn't get washed but maybe 6 times a year and has only been waxed once. I realize it is not a Mazda3 or a Protege and may have been manufactured in a different plant but still, to say one shouldn't buy a Mazda product because they once had rust issues is silly. Especially since we are talking about midsize cars.

"Two of Mazdas brand strengths are quality and resale value, but thats not why the Mazda3 compact is Canadas fourth most popular car, with sales this year up 11 per cent." from a 2012 article in the Canadian newspaper Globe and Mail, Toronto

I'm sure there are article pros and cons but consumers seem to like the Mazda brand just fine in Canada, even more so than in the U.S. I don't purport to know the exact reasons but sales numbers don't lie and they don't make assumptions.

wayne21 · October 2013

But to your point, Honda did eventually live up to it....

You are giving Honda too much credit. The ONLY reason Honda took care of the transmissions (they didn't fix them, but extended the warranty) was due to a class action lawsuit. That seems to be the same thing for their 2008-2012 accord brake issues, too. Instead of "living up to it" they faced another class action lawsuit and now are taking care of it. And as to the "early on" fixes, my 2000 accord 4 cyl had the original plus 3 rebuilt transmissions in it before it had 90,000 miles on it. (Following a class action lawsuit, they extended the transmission warranties to 7 years or 100k and when you got a rebuilt tranny it came with a 3/36 warranty.)

ab348 · October 2013

I'm glad you acknowledge that there are Canadian sources of information about Mazda's ownership experience. Now use that knowledge to see the similar sources of information about premature rust-out. It's nice that your car didn't experience it. That means nothing when many others are having serious problems. To wit:

"In the last few weeks I think I saw at least +30 Mazda3 that were rust buckets. We're talking cars that are barely 3-4 years old!"

"We see a lot of mazda3's in trade and 90% of them are rusted...mazda had a recall for some and repaired them but they still have issues."

Is it fixed? Maybe not:

"They havent, we are seeing 2009+ that are rusted coming into the shop..
Mazdas have always rotted away. You dont see 323 or 626 anymore not because of the engines, but always the body.
I basically laugh at anyone who buys one. Ive seen rustproofed mazdas break out.. takes longer, but they WILL rot.
My brother in law has a 5, I feel bad for him. He is already complaining about the rust, and hes always been a car guy and knew what he was in for, just not so fast. "

"It is amazing how many Mazda3s I see in Alberta with rust issues. They seem to rust just as quick as the Protégés, especially in the same rear wheel well area."

the reality is that people will tend to overlook issues if they believe the car is something special otherwise. That explains why the Japanese makes were not driven back into the sea in the 1970s and '80s when their cars were practically biodegradable in the salt belt. People liked the mechanical reliability and fuel economy and lived with the rust until the car could no longer be driven safely.

scwmcan · October 2013

That's strange as we never had any problems with our 2007 Mazda 3 and looking at the resale values they are as high if not higher than equivalent competitors ( including the corrolla and civic). The rust problems were only on the early 3s and even then are not as bad as people make them out to be, I see as many equivalent models with rusta s Mazda 3s. Mazda did adress the problem at some point between the 2006 and 2007 model years, so it appears that it is not the concern that you want to make it out to be. Your "facts" don't seem to apply here ( in the GTA) from what I can tell.

crkyolfrt · October 2013

Did you move to TO from out west? I cudda sworn you lived out west (in the rain belt) which is good to flush salt away. You simply can't compare BC cars with ones to the east. Oh...maybe Niagara Falls? I wonder who i was thinking of that lives out west..

Outta curiosity, which Cdn forums do you visit to try to get pricing that is as (or even remotely as) helpful as Edmund's "Prices Paid" forums, for Americans?

As much as I enjoy this site and have acquired many friends here, whenever they talk price it drives me crazy..the green kind..(source and knowledge envy)..

ab348 · October 2013

They aren't my "facts". They are the documented experiences of others. Simply search the net for "mazda rust issues" or similar and read.

gogophers1 · October 2013

Someone should create a Mazda Rust board and relocate this discussion to it.

scwmcan · October 2013

Did a check on the rust issue, and it does appear that there are more occurrences of rust issues on the 3 in forums than for at least the civic and corolla ( though those have some issues with rust as well). That said it is obvious there must be some variable in the manufacturing process or something as I know neither of our 3s had this issue ( mine was only around till about 3.5 years 80,000 km though) the 2007 3 we still own does not have any rust issues with 130,000 + km on it. Ours is a hatch though so maybe that is part of the difference ( I see a lot of the complaints are around the rear lights and third mounter brake light, on I assume the sedans), though the wheel wells I would assume are manufactured the same way. In any case obviously the problem doesn't affect every 3. I do see problems with similar level cars from other makes.
I am going to stop here since my experience doesn't relate to midsized cars, and neither does the thread about potential rust issues with the 3, that you pointed people towards.

ivan_99 · October 2013

You are correct. They are very, very, similar; especially the rear half of the vehicle (the C pillar).

The Accord and Legacy are both attractive, but I'm not an Accord "fan"...the styling just looks to similar to previous models. Maybe that is a good thing because when I look at it it is instantly recognizable as an Accord. It just doesn't look "new" to me.

I do also agree with other posters regarding the Legacy...the overhang is a little long, The Fusion wheelbase is about 4" longer than the Legacy. This is also my pet peeve with the Optima design, while very nice it appears they have the constraint of the platform. If they could push the front wheels 3-4" forward and the rear 2" back I think it'd look stunning.

This is of course just nit-picking...All of these look stunning compared to sedans from 10-15 years ago.

[Deleted User] · October 2013

The old Mazda 3 and the Mazda 6 are 75% Ford. While they share no body panels, the Mazda 3 is basically a Focus and the 6 is a quasi Ford 500.

The new Mazda 3, 6, and CX-5 are all new machines from the ground up, with 100% Japanese Mazda parts. The 6 is made entirely in Japan, and the Japanese take a lot of pride in what they build. Mazda has something to prove now that they have completely divorced Ford.

I bought my Optima before the new 6, Accord, or Fusion was available, but I think I might have bought the 6 if it was available in December 2011. It would have been hard to decide between the Optima, 6, or the Accord.

[Deleted User] · October 2013

I am so glad I don't live in the rust belt. I remember the cars in Buffalo where my family is from and how shocked I was at all the rust on almost every car.

From what I have seen every mainstream car factory completely submerges their cars in rust coating solutions where the entire car is dunked in a huge vat. There is current applied to the solution so it sticks to every nook and cranny.

m6user · October 2013

"and the 6 is a quasi Ford 500."

Not even close. Even the Fusion was bigger than the 1st gen 6 and the 500 was a lot bigger than the Fusion. Different everything but maybe a base v-6 engine tuned differently.

akirby · October 2013

The old Mazda 3 started with the Euro Focus platform. The old Mazda 6 was it's own platform. Ford took that platform, widened and lengthened it slightly and that was the original Fusion platform (not 500). The new Mazda6 is an updated version of the Fusion's longer and wider platform but 100% Mazda. The 2013 Fusion uses a new platform based on the Euro Mondeo.

[Deleted User] · October 2013

My bad dude. I meant Fusion. My wife owned an 04, so I darned sure know what it is! Tuned differently yes, and I never once felt like I was in a Ford while driving the 6 Sportwagon.

[Deleted User] · October 2013

yeah yaeh yeah....I got my wires crossed kirby.

EVERYONE GO FOR MY THROAT I WAS WRONG!!!!

LMAO.

explorerx4 · October 2013

It seems to be working. Dropped to 3/4 after about 110 miles. Before that, it would take 10 miles to hit that level.

[Deleted User] · October 2013

Awesome. I am glad Ford took care of it. Having to worry about how much fuel you have is no fun.

I am sorry but I forgot which model Fusion you have. Is it the 1.6 Eco-boost or 2.5 or 2.0?

What color?

I wish everyone here would post pics of their cars!!

Kirstie_H · October 2013

Not to dangle the ol' "new forums software" carrot again, but just so you know, on that platform we'll have the ability to list vehicles you own in your profile, and photo upload will be easy (pretty much like all sites, where you choose the photo from your personal drive and it shows up). Maybe at that point we could even have a spin-off of this discussion just for midsize sedans members' vehicle pics, if that would appeal.

dudleyr · October 2013

So when is the "new" forum supposed to happen?

explorerx4 · October 2013

My Fusion has the 2.0, which has more power than I need.
Don't have any car pics, haven't even downloaded the pics of the bear that hung out in my yard for about an hour on Saturday.
Here is a twin of my Fusion

benjaminh · October 2013

cski wrote: "I saw the interior of a base Honda Accord today at the grocery store, so I stuck my head in. The first thing I saw was lots of shiny plasti-silver faux-aluminum. I like the Accord exterior, but what you have to see everyday is the inside. So, if that 1980's Emerson-Soundesign boom-box cheap plastic is on other Accords...then Honda blew it interior wise...."

The interior of the new Accord is actually very nice, but as with exterior styling everyone has different tastes.

Compared to the previous generation of Accord, this generation has higher quality materials in almost all areas, except for the carpets. The dash of the new Accord is in fact made in a new and innovative way at the Ohio factory as one piece. The press release when it came out talked about how the previous dash had something like a dozen pieces, while the new one is made of one piece of high tech material formed in the factory on a super stable foundation. I don't understand the details, but I remember that they had to build a new concrete foundation several feet thick in this part of the factory to shield the formation of the dash material from any vibrations as it's being formed.

Most reviews like the Accord interior. Here's a little of the Automobile magazine review, for instance, where the Accord placed first in a comparison test:

"It begins with the rigorously ergonomic approach that Honda takes to formatting the driving position of its cars. You notice the great visibility from the driver's seat, the thoughtful layout of the light-effort controls....We enjoyed being in this car, and while its interior dimensions aren't much different from those of its competition, it feels especially open and spacious. The soft-touch detailing has added a worthwhile dimension of luxury, and even the cloth seat upholstery seems particularly nice. And just as important, we found it easy to climb in and out, while the ride was quieter than we remember from past Accords as well as more supple and composed on the road. In the past, the Accord has always seemed like a strong value proposition, yet now this car aspires to something more than big-time practicality. This has become a very nice car, an automobile that projects a premium image...."

Read more: http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/driven/1303_midsize_madness_day_five/#ixzz2- - - hEf5TATU

suydam · October 2013

Most reviews I read compliment the Honda interior, such as this one:
"Honda paid more attention to interior materials and design (particularly the center stack) in this latest redesign, and the result is a genuinely upscale ambience, even in a working man's Accord with cloth seats."

But to each his/her own impressions!

[Deleted User] · October 2013

As soon as I saw the plasti-luminum silver matte finish on all along the border of the center stack I was turned off. I very much like the Accord in every other way, and I hope that trim is just in the base model. The camera system pretty much makes up for it though.

I guess I was more bummed about it, as the car had won me over in so many other ways. The Mazda has none. My mother-in-laws new Pathfinder has it everywhere.

This is totally personal preference. All the reviews in the world will not change my opinion here. I sold electronics from '89 to '92, and that is when I started to dislike it. I actually sold those Emerson/Soundesign boom boxes, etc. The finish scratched easily and gets worn off quickly, along with any lettering/icons printed on it.

ctl · October 2013

For Base model, Altima has the worse cloth seat material, which Accord is right down there next to it. A good strategy to lure buyers to the higher trims?

[Deleted User] · October 2013

I saw you guy's going back and forth about the premature Mazda 3 rust. I found the Mazda 3 website and have a link here (with pictures). This would be a very good place to discuss it.

http://www.mazda3forums.com/showthread.php?t=307935

Kirstie_H · October 2013

We don't have a firm date - not going to happen until we can ensure as smooth a transition as possible. We'll give you plenty of notice.

explorerx4 · October 2013

I agree with cski, the Accord interior is underwhelming.
Got a ride in one and I thought I was in a 2012, until I looked at the back of the car.
This was a top of the line model with black leather.
My Fusion has a black interior, but there are lots of nice details.

vser · October 2013

I for one, thinks that honda three tiered infotainment is way too busy. The Fusion and Altima are much nicer. I too agree that the Honda feels roomier, almost to a fault. I prefer the bucket type seats of the fusion and altima. But the fusion is about 4k more. And the altima seems to be having transmission issues. I've started looking at the Avalon which can be had for 35 for the limited. Too many choices.

gogophers1 · October 2013

It's always interesting to see what's appealing/unappealing to other folks out there.

As far as the faux aluminum trim, it's neither a big turn-on or turn-off for me. I'm quite indifferent. In fact, I generally don't even notice it when it's there. I guess I'm focusing more on other things (the overall style and layout of the instrument panel/center stack; vinyl/plastic quality and color). Unless something jumps out at me (like that ridiculous Plymouth Volaresque stitching Toyota thought to include on the Camry's dash pad), it tends to fade into the background.

Now the "piano black" trim that seems to be growing in popularity... that's a different story altogether. I REALLY dislike the stuff (and, unfortunately, Ford uses it on parts of the new Fusion; worse yet, Mazda virtually shellacs some of its models in the junk). While it doesn't look notably bad if a car is freshly detailed, every time I hop into a vehicle with piano black plastic at the Minneapolis Auto Show, it's invariably covered in very noticeable, greasy fingerprints. Ewww.

Piano black plastic trim reminds me of those black laquer home furnishings they used to peddle in seedy, inner-city RTO furniture stores back in the early '90s. What's next, faux gold-trim door pulls?

igozoomzoom · October 2013

Faux-aluminum wouldn't be my first choice as an accent for the interior trim, but ANYTHING beats "Piano Black"! I never understood how high-gloss black plastic that can't be kept clean for five minutes is supposed to be upscale???

ahightower · October 2013

Faux gold trim is exactly what I expect next. Everyone will want their car to match their new gaudy iPhone.

backy · October 2013

I don't mind a little faux aluminum trim in a low-bucks car if it looks OK. I think the faux aluminum trim on the center stack of my wife's 2013 Sonata GLS looks fine, fits the overall design well, and there isn't much of it to be distracting--just a highlight. I've seen some faux aluminum trim that looks really plasticky, e.g. real shiny or rough, and I'd rather have black plastic (like in my Kia Rio) instead of that.

[Deleted User] · October 2013

The Avalon is a handsome car, inside and out; except for the grill. It looks like a fish. Ford got the grill right in the Fusion, but Toyota missed the mark. I wish the giant grill look would go away to be honest. This leads me to my favorite large sedan. The 2014 Impala 3.6. I can't even BELIEVE I like an Impala, not to mention pining for one.

https://www.google.com/search?q=2014+Impala+pictures&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS544US544&tb- -

The new Impala is beautiful, from every angle, inside and out. I read that GM is going to offer a twin-turbo 3.6 SS version putting out 414 hp, although I would be more than happy with the 3.6 - DI engine with 305 HP.
The front end of it is a textbook example of handsome. Magazines don't do it justice. You gotta see it in person.

That is enough out of me about cars in the next class up...but I do think it is important to mention them, as it is an option for many of us when looking for a new sedan.

[Deleted User] · October 2013

The Optima EX doesn't have any piano black on it, but after I tinted the glass I added two panels of it on each of the "B" pillars, so it would reflect just like the glass. The SX model has the gloss B pillars stock, so I didn't add anything gaudy like the aftermarket chrome ones.

I have noticed it scratches very easily. I am glad the 4 panels only cost $30 and can be replaced any time.

Here is a pic: http://i.imgur.com/O8nHZuPh.jpg

Here is one more: http://i.imgur.com/FmBHfsL.jpg

Here is a picture of my actual interior. Note the real aluminum trim around the shifter: http://i.imgur.com/lGTjnEd.jpg

vser · October 2013

I've driven the Impala. It is nice, but too jumpy for me. I feel like I want to just floor it and fly. And the visibility out of the back window is very poor. I like the fusion too, but the quotes for a loaded one have been 33. And I've gotten quotes for a limited Avalon for 35. IMHO that's a no brainier.

[Deleted User] · October 2013

So if the turn signal stalk is gold with diamond c/z trim, would they call it a

"Bling-ker"?

I know, I know..... really, really bad. LOL

[Deleted User] · October 2013

Yes I remember you told me that in another post. I wonder if it has an "eco mode", which makes the throttle far less sensitive on my car, and keeps it from abruptly downshifting (like when going up a hill) to save at the pump.

It sounds like you are 90% set on that Avalon, and I can't argue about that, especially for only 2k more than a Fusion. I just like the Impala from every angle, but that is easy for me to say as I am not seriously contemplating a purchase. Since you are, there is a lot more important things to worry about than the shape of the lower grill.
The Avalon looks great. Love the interior, and it will keep it's resale value better.

jayrider · October 2013

Just saw some pretty big discounts on the Buick Regal Turbo. $7500 off msrp with loyalty/conquest cash. 25k-28k for a pretty nice ride. 4 year warranty. A bit small for me --I like my LaCrosse --- might be worth a look for some shoppers. Any other deals out there for other brands ?

explorerx4 · October 2013

Are you looking at comparable models? 33k for a FWD Fusion is pretty high.

[Deleted User] · October 2013

I have wanted to bring this up for a couple of weeks. This new Mercedes model has a turbo 2.0 engine, with the base model 4 cyl putting out 208 hp and 258 lb ft.

It is the size of a compact car, like a Civolla, but you get a lot for your money, and a decidedly better self image than a Civolla could offer. Front seat room is excellent.

Another alternative is the BMW 320i. At $34k it offers the same 2.0 liter turbo in the 328i, but de-tuned to 180 hp and 200 lb ft. I owned the original 1979 model. It only had 100 hp, but it was a very light car and it was given to me if I could dig it out of a giant snow bank on a relatives property. I never dug so fast in my entire life! It was like it was free toy in a cereal box. I am sorry I sold it, but I was 21 and stupid.

Now, I know some of you are going to scream about the lack of rear seat room and limited options that come with the rock bottom priced models, but a premium brand car is at least within reach for many of us, and I thought I should mention it.

ahightower · October 2013

Acura has offered in this space for a while with the TSX and ILX. I wanted one of them, but found both simply too small and too expensive, and not significantly nicer than a mainstream brand mid sizer. ILX 2.4 manual is over $30k. Used TSX had very high prices, it seemed. Verano was another premium option that I liked very much but found too lacking in space.

Besides the quality of the interior in my new Accord, and of the Optima I considered, was such a vast step up from my old Mazda3 that it feels like a Bentley in comparison!

And again, felt I was trading space for brand cache. At this point in my life, the back seat is more important than the badge. Next time around I hope to have a premium brand for its dealer and service experience alone. Great tech, fancy interior gadgets, etc. I will afford those when the kids are grown.

But I won't have a small car just to get a fancy badge. If a small car suits my needs and is fun to drive, okay. But I see baby seats in the back of Lexus ISs and G37s and think... Get over yourself, dad.

Maybe MB and BMW are worth the loss of leg room, but I doubt it. They are built to a price. For someone spending low 30s instead of low 20s, who wants plenty of power and tech, I'd have to recommend a loaded Fusion or Accord or Mazda6. Power and space are also "luxuries" in my definition. I'd rather not give them up just to impress strangers parked in the same traffic jam.

[Deleted User] · October 2013

My sensibilities are like your's. I have three kids ages 8 to 13, and their education comes first. I no longer needed a van or an SUV because my kids no longer required car seats and strollers, but still needed a car that had a lot of room inside, and great F/E. My car has HUGE KIA badges front and rear, but I don't care and drive my car with pride. Be damned what the next guy thinks of me!

backy · October 2013

A good discussion... for the CLA discussion or one on entry-level luxury COMPACT cars.

[Deleted User] · October 2013

It is a sedan, has a 2.0 turbo. and fits the price structure...so it has the potential to take sales from the the mid-size segment. It is in that regard that I brought it up.

Backy, I have noticed that each time you respond to me you are curt and borderline insulting to me in particular. Do you care to explain? I have tried to be nice and to respond appropriately, but that isn't working.

ivan_99 · October 2013

I saw my first CLA on the road today and my jaw dropped...amazing look; White with AMG rims. I've never driven or even looked inside so maybe the backseats are a deal breaker.

But strictly from an aesthetics point it was beautiful. Realistically it's a silly criteria in choosing a mode of transportation...but it was very nice

backy · October 2013

Curt and insulting? Hardly! I put a smiley face on my last post, to make sure you knew I was funnin' ya. But I don't see it there now! And the page view is all messed up. That has been happening to me on this site for the past few days... right now THIS page display is messed up, it's full width and the Emoticons don't show up.

Anyway, no insult was intended. I was merely pointing out that the CLA is a compact car, not a mid-sized family sedan which is the focus of this discussion. I think people who come here expect to have a discussion on mid-sized sedans. There's lots of other discussions for cars like the CLA.

If you want to open this up to possible competitors to mid-sized family sedans, there's a LOT of those. There's compact cars that have mid-sized interiors, like the Elantra, Forte, and Jetta. There's small SUVs at about the same price as a mid-sized sedan, but more cargo room. There's mid-sized near-luxury cars that start at a price where the high-trim family cars top out--so some overlap on price. There's large family cars like the Taurus, Impala, and Azera that also overlap the mid-sized cars on price.

Just trying to keep to the topic. Sorry you took offense at that.

EDIT: I just refreshed the page and now it looks normal, and I can see the smiley face I put on my last post to you. Did that not show up for you either, as it didn't for me a minute ago?

stickguy · October 2013

I just went through the same mental exercise. I really like the ILX, and as soon as my son gets a permanent job, he might get one.

but I was discussing, and looking into, the Accord with a friend that needs a new car. The EX-L is about the same price as the ILX base (though maybe a little bit higher), but offers pretty much all the features the Acura has, plus some more (OK, at least XM!) The Accord though is bigger (some people like that, I am fine with more compact), more power, quicker, better MPG (thanks to the CVT).

so if I had to go get a new sedan right now, considering my "must haves" (equipment wise) it would be an interesting decision.

I also think that the current crop of midsize sedans now puts a ton of pressure on the compacts, as long as you are willing to compare a lower trim line big car vs. high line smaller one. Usually quicker, certainly much roomier and usually more comfortable highway ride, with comparable MPG.

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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