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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I was referencing post 1935 actually.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    "...but if you look at the 0-60 numbers.. I really don't think the average car buyer is really going to notice 1 second.. ya think?"

    If they won't notice that V-6 A is a second slower than V-6 B, they probly won't notice V-6 A is a second faster than 4-cyl B. So why bother with the V-6 at all?

    See how I didn't bash any brand. ;)

    The whole HP numbers game just plays into the the marketing depts. They want you to care about HP so they can create a demand and hence more profit.

    Look at a Lotus Elise. It will embarass most any car on the road - with a Toyota 4-cylinder engine. HP is not all that matters.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Look at a Lotus Elise. It will embarass most any car on the road - with a Toyota 4-cylinder engine.

    You mean the midsize sedan called the Lotus Elise? Actually a 4cyl S2000 will easily embarass a Lotus Elise.

    High HP while maintaining decent fuel economy is what most of these cars offer.
  • mayberryguymayberryguy Member Posts: 145
    Ford is definitely leading the engineering effort for AWD. At least give them credit for that.

    I think Subaru should get the nod for AWD engineering in this class. Ford is a little late to the party in comparison to Subaru.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    But to point, an S2000 engine in a Honda Accord would be "negatory" good buddy. The S2000 engine makes no torque, but has high revs. In the S2000 it's great, the same engine in the Accord would be a disaster.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Has anyone seen this article yet?

    Definitely a gutsy move by Saturn...
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    That sure is a lot of confidence. As you said, Ghost, gutsy.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Good for them. GM is really trying to reinvent itself bit by bit and climb out of the hole they are in. Ford, OTOH...

    I give for a decade before it's also sold off like Chrysler was.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    I give for a decade before it's also sold off like Chrysler was.

    I fear that you may be correct but I hope that is not the case.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Sounds like GM's version of the Ford Challenge. Good for them.

    Everything that's wrong with Ford is being addressed by Fields and Mullaly. So far they've made the right decisions for Ford's long term health. No reason to think they won't keep it up.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Definitely a gutsy move by Saturn...

    Not really, considering a huge amount of the CamCord's appeal is from its reputation as a long term pleaser, and the showroom can downplay or mute this trait.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,147
    To me, this seems like a HUGE risk. I would never consider an Aura over an Accord or Camry. I recognize that this decision is not based on objective qualities, but on personal experience and bias.

    I am so biased that it would take either a giant price difference or some super-surprising features and possibly a much longer warranty to sway me. I cannot imagine changing my mind. Perhaps they so strongly believe in their product that they think a side-by-side could make me consider the Aura?

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  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    In my opinion this is an excellent move by Saturn, and I suspect they will see some increase in sales as a result.

    This is light years ahead of the "Fusion Challenge" because I beleive this will actually get some more people into Saturn showrooms (heck, I have one a mile away that I've never been to, and I'm thinking about going just to check out the spectacle).
    You've got the fairly basic models of all three cars, comparable in *sticker* price (the one flaw is that Saturn won't budge wheras the Japanese usually will), and they can showcase all of the awards the Aura has.

    Plus if they really do "pamper" the customers I'm thinking it will get some people all worked up. Additionally, unlike the Fusion challenge, the people who get all excited during the test drives will actually be able to buy an Aura right then before the excited feeling wears off.

    I've never driven an Aura; I'll report my experience.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Bingo! You hit the nail on the head and that is my thinking also. I am biased for a reason however, and am entitled to war those those biases proudly.

    Unless someone wants to give me a car, I intend on keeping those biases. :surprise
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    gutsy, but not a surprise. one problem you have when your at the top, everybody is gunning for you. Ford, Nissan, GM, Chrysler, Hundai, ect are all tageting 2 vehicles. the accord and the camry.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Like people won't smell a setup here. They can do all sorts of things to the Camry and Accord to make them seem less appealing. 1. loosen a few screws here and there to create some rattles. 2. Disconnect an O2 sensor, so the Check engine light comes on. 3. You can bet they won't be using the top of the line models. 4. Whatever models they use will have drastically inflated stickers on the windows. The competitors have been shooting at the Camry and Accord for 15 years or more now, and they will miss the target again with this obvious ploy.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    1. loosen a few screws here and there to create some rattles.

    As much as I love my Hondas, I gotta say I think the factory does this for you :P
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    I bet they will be standard models. The idea is clearly one of "look, this car is 90% as good as these - it's a very small difference. But check out the prices - we're thousands less and have aggressive financing specials..."

    It's why Lexus ate into Mercedes sales. Close to the same thing for a lot less money(well, at first... now Lexus is silly money as well)
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    There is absolutely no way they will tamper with the Accord or Camry. That is legal and marketing suicide. If you can get over the hype, and blind brand loyalty, there are reasonable alternatives to an Accord and Camry. I should know, I own both a new Toyota and a new Hyundai, and Accord/Camry fans probably don't want to hear my comments.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    I own both a new Toyota and a new Hyundai, and Accord/Camry fans probably don't want to hear my comments.

    The CamCord fans might not want to hear your comments but this Fusion owner does. Are you going to say the Hyundai is better in some respects? Is it a Sonata?
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    Wouldn't it be funny if people visiting the Saturn showrooms try to buy the Camry or Accord. To be sure Saturn (GM) has got to be buying the Camrys and Accords because Toyota or Honda certainly isn't going to "loan" them cars for purposes of the demonstration.
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    will probably just lease them. but It sounds like a decent idea to me. What have they got to loose? As someone else said, it will all be about price. I doubt many people will actually test drive the accords or camrys, this is just a way for the salespeople to put the two cars next to each other and say "does it realy look like its worth x thousands of dollars more?"
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Very interesting discussion on GM's Accord/Camry tactic.

    As an aside, I've recently had the pleasure of renting a Altima [EDIT] 2.5S and driving a couple hundred miles in it, back and forth between NYC/NJ/Philly.

    First, let me say that this vehicle's glaring omission is its lack of standard ABS. In a rainstorm yesterday, this becaming frighteningly apparent on the NJ TPK as I had to jab the brakes quickly due to rubbernecking, and the front tires locked-up momentarily. As if a Taco Bell lunch needs further encouragement through my digestive system!
    Crisis adverted, no drama ensued, but still.. it's practically the 2008 MY, this vehicle costs $21K at MSRP, and ABS is minimally expensive nowawdays, so what gives, Nissan?

    That aside, this car is fantastic. Sure, I'm still not convinced by the fuzzy, cheap felt on the outer edges of the seats, but that's so easy to overlook given the interior's many other virtues, from a super-easy to use trip computer, to well placed dash vents and logical climate controls. And the base stereo is even pretty decent (though I like the Camry's trap door for the iPod better than the Altima's jack).

    Additionally, seating is comfortable, passenger room copious, and steering wheel easily customizable for drivers of various shapes and sizes. Finally, all buyers get the simple but totally trick Intelligent Key? Sweet!

    Where this car shines though is in its ultra-responsive and smooth (especially for a 4) powertrain. The CVT is worlds above those offered in Dodge/Mitsu products, and this 2.5L feels nothing if not 3.0+ litres in size. I've even gotten an indicated 25 MPG since rolling out of the Enterprise parking lot, despite lots of sitting in traffic and, shall we say, liberal throttle applications when not.

    Handling is as one would expect given Nissan's pitch of the Altima; composed and engaging. Kudos.

    Seriously, pending crash scores, I can't imagine why this vehicle wouldn't be on the shopping list of buyers in this segment. This is, far and away, the 4 cylinder that I'd pick. Make mine with ABS and the Convenience Package, though (which really does add convenience, btw, as the power driver's seat likely cures some of the limited flexiblity between the standard seat's incline and slide detents)

    Heck, I'd take this 4 over the V6 iterations of the Sonata and Fusion, too. I haven't driven the Altima V6, but it would be a tough call between this and the Camry SE V6 or the Accord V6s (due to their tremedous value right now and general competence despite age). If I wanted lux, I'd probably go Camry XLE V6, though.

    IMO, if Nissan continues cranking out winners like this, Shift 2.0 will be nothing short of phenomenal. (To bad the new Sentra works to contradict this).

    my .02
    ~alpha
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    renting a Altima 2.0S

    There is no Altima 2.0S
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    hey Alpha, did you get a chance to drive last year's Altima? Did the handling improve - particularly the steering feel and "boatish" feeling? I did like their v-6 a lot with more low end torque. But ingress and particularly egress was not too easy from what I remember... anyway, thanks for sharing.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    There is no Altima 2.0S


    He did later in his review point out that the engine was 2.5L in size. Probably a typo unless he actually drove a Sentra 2.0S? :confuse:
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    and Accord/Camry fans probably don't want to hear my comments.


    Sure we do. ;) This is just another "Challenge", and will be as effective as the Fusion and Hyundai challenges have been. Are their sales increasing since they started the Challenges? I don't think so.

    The way to increase sales of your own car, is to make a BETTER CAR. Talking bad about the other guy doesn't work.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Probably a typo unless he actually drove a Sentra 2.0S?

    I was thinking the same thing. The latest Motor Trend picked it second to the Civic and ahead of the Elantra. Looks good to me too.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    This is, far and away, the 4 cylinder that I'd pick.

    Nissan does build a nice 4 cyl, but I'd venture to say the next incarnation of a four cylinder from Honda in the 08 Accord will not only easily match it, but also provide the overall Honda fit and finish that closes most deals at a Honda dealership.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Are their sales increasing since they started the Challenges? I don't think so.

    . So much misinformation. So little time.

    Ford April 2007 sales press release:
    Following the start of the successful “Fusion Challenge” ads in January, the Ford Fusion posted double-digit sales increases throughout the first quarter.

    Fusion sales for 1Q07 when they ran the ads were up 33% over 1Q06. 39,678 for 1Q2007 vs. 29,845 for 1Q2006.

    There goes that theory.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Perhaps. But of the four cylinder midsizers one can go out and purchase today, I'd choose the Altima.

    ~alpha
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    "Fusion sales for 1Q07 when they ran the ads were up 33% over 1Q06. 39,678 for 1Q2007 vs. 29,845 for 1Q2006" does not form a correlation between the ads and Fusion sales, it merely states concurrent events.

    Further were sales to consumers, and not to fleet? Ford has been doing good with this in terms of the FuLans, but I still have seen many at airport rental lots.

    Finally, I found the Fusion challenge annoying because it didn't seem to be as apples to apples as possible. Did Ford not feel confident enough in fielding the FWD version of the Fusion? Since all the bar graphs that Ford chose to place in its ads had to do with either 1) styling or 2) performance, was Ford uncomfortable in providing a Camry SE with its different suspension settings?

    ~alpha
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I don't think it's a risk at all. GM must do something to make buyers actually compare the Aura to the Accord and Camry and show them how well the Aura stacks up. This is as good a way to do it as any.

    I expect what Saturn is doing is pitting the Aura against like-priced Camrys and Accords. That would mean, for example, the V6 Aura vs. a relatively bare-bones Accord/Camry I4. I have done just this sort of comparison at my local auto show, and IMO the Aura looks very good in this kind of comparison. For example, it has large, nice-looking alloys vs. (probably) plastic covers on smaller wheels on the Camcord. It has the V6 vs. the I4. It has a much classier looking exterior I think, and the interior compares well, at least to the extent someone would compare them on a showfloor. You also have other plusses with the Aura, including OnStar and the hassle-free buying experience Saturn offers (not to be overlooked for many buyers tired of what they have experienced or heard about shenanigans by Honda and Toyota salespeople).

    So I think it's a good move by GM--even if it means that Honda and Toyota just sold nearly 500 cars each in June.

    I'd like to see Hyundai try this with, say, the Santa Fe, RAV4, and CRV, or maybe the Elantra, Civic, and Corolla. Or more on topic, the Sonata, Camry, and Accord. Before the new Accord comes out, preferably. ;)
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    No-way, the Accord will easily out handle a Camry..
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "would also likely notice that the Camcord is probably worth that same $3-5k more at trade-in time. More truth to the adage that 'you do get what you pay for (or don't pay for).' "

    Better be worth 3-$5K more at trade in... You paid $3-5K more at purchase.. ;)
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    If you don't see the correlation then you just don't want to see it. Even the dealers said the ads were bringing in more buyers.

    Fusion fleet sales are holding steady around 18% last time I checked. They are NOT dumping cars into rental fleets. Instead they're slowing production to match demand instead of throwing huge amounts of cash on the hood. Even the slow selling Five Hundred never got huge rebates like it would have in the past. The days of rental fleet dumping are over.

    Having AWD was the main point of the Fusion challenge - you can get an AWD Fusion V6 for the same price or less than the FWD competition. If Toyota wants to do their own test with a SE model - go right ahead. But if they had used the SE model then everyone would have complained that the Fusion was better equipped since it was a top of the line model.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "Finally, I found the Fusion challenge annoying because it didn't seem to be as apples to apples as possible. "

    Here we go again..

    The fact is you can buy an AWD Fusion SEL V6 for the same price or less than a V6 CamryXLE or Accord EX. Read the comparison please. "Comparable prices". The Fusion will still our perform a Camry SE in the twisties. So I guess the Accord/Camry having stability control standard has no merit?? :confuse:

    Ford was a SPONSER only. Ford funded the comparison. These were everyday people/consumers. Not mag writers that have to make sure they keep the masses of readers happy or they will lose readers=revenue. That is what made this comparison an eye opener. ;)
  • pulgopulgo Member Posts: 400
    I just purchased a Sentra 2.0. S + luxury package. It comes with ABS, EBD, trip computer, heated mirrors, bluetooth, etc, etc, for a very decent price.

    I am getting 35 MPG on my horrible 40 mile, 1 hour and a half commute that has 50% stop and go.

    What is there not to like? (yeah I know, it's not very sporty, has a soft suspension but is very roomy and quiet).
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Today I was at the store and happened to be getting in my car when an Amethyst (Purplish/black) brand new Fusion SEL V6 AWD drove past me. The person driving was a woman about 30ish. I pulled up behind her and started a conversation about the Fusion. She was surprised I had mine for a year and was very interested how I felt after a years ownership.. Nice color check it out on the web..
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Better be worth 3-$5K more at trade in... You paid $3-5K more at purchase

    Oh it will. And the percentage of its original value the Accord will keep is huge compared to a Ford.

    You seem to forget about that part of the calculation.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Im still wondering whopaid $5k more for an Accord. Mine was about $2k more than a comparable Fusion, and the numbers should have only come closer together since two years ago when I got the car.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    Percentages are for those who don't really understand numbers. As an extreme example (but the percentages apply :P ) : buy a car for $20K and turn it in for $12K (that's 60%) and it cost you $8K depreciation. Buy a different car for $16K and turn it in for $10K (that's 56.25%) and it cost you $7K depreciation.

    The first car retained a higher % of it's original cost but cost $1K more in REAL dollars. Do percentages pay your expenses or do you pay them with dollars?

    Another example of percentages not being real: If you make $200 a week and get a 50% pay cut for a month, you'd get $100 per week. Then the situation improves and you get a 100% pay increase, which restores you to the original $200 per week. The dollars are the same but the percentage minded people would be inclined to think you were better off with a 100% increase after suffering "only a 50% temporary cut."
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    Nissan does build a nice 4 cyl, but I'd venture to say the next incarnation of a four cylinder from Honda in the 08 Accord will not only easily match it, but also provide the overall Honda fit and finish that closes most deals at a Honda dealership.

    leadfoot: you keep talking like you've got some crystal ball or some inside contacts at Honda! Stop it! I like Honda too, but I don't think everything they touch turns to gold... look at their stringtrimmers or even the ridgeline or ElementSC or RDX or RL or lack of braking power on their Accords. Why don't we just talk about what we know and not what we hope we know.
  • mort4371mort4371 Member Posts: 27
    "Oh it will. And the percentage of its original value the Accord will keep is huge compared to a Ford.

    You seem to forget about that part of the calculation."


    Have fun banking the percentage. My bank only works in dollars. :)

    Seriously - adwriters must love us (colectively) consumers. They can use numbers/statistics that are at best irrelevant, or at worst misleading, but if they sound good we eat 'em up.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I'd look at real world private party sales and forgot the percentages. For example, in real dollars IMO the Accord will hold it's value better than the Fusion. Meaning that after three years, the purchase price minus the sales price will be greater for an Accord vs a Fusion. Thus contributing to a lower cost of ownership over the time period.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    But that's based on the fleet queen Taurus. Huge incentives and rental fleet dumping is what hurts resale values and we have neither case with the Fusion. Automotive Lease Guide puts estimated Fusion resale in between Accord and Camry.

    Accord will probably be slightly higher because of its reputation but I don't think the gap is as high as the Accord fans think it will be.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Better be worth 3-$5K more at trade in
    and if we make the assumption that it will be (while Ford has had a checkered past in the residual value dept, we simply don't know yet about the Fusion - the Camcords OTH each have about 20 years or so of great residual values), then that Camcord really only costs about $200.00/year to own than that Fusion - that $200.00 'average' interest you pay on an extra $4000.00 per year - keeping in mind that the principle difference will also narrow because your payments are obviously higher and that loan principle difference reduces with time. Is it worth an extra $20/month to drive an Accord let's say - that is buyers choice, but it is also a cost that you might also recover just in the FE differences.
    The Accord actually a cheaper car than a Fusion, quite possibly - and I'm not the only one that thinks so - check out Intellichoice and Edmunds numbers. This logically the ultimate justification for those that go out and spend the extra money on a Camcord - but also one with a very solid historically supported foundation.

    Over the longer term, of course, that differential will always shrink in the cheaper car's favor and then we are all reduced to a bet of sorts - on the long term reliability and repair costs on one car vs the other, and again we can all point to 20 years or so of history versus a whole 2 as we all seek to make the best 'bet' we can.

    Folks that point to initial purchase price can sometimes justifiably point to some great discounted and/or mfgr sponsored 'deal' they think they got, but the fact of the matter is that initial purchase price is only one of several components of what it truly costs to own a car.

    Harp on the price differences all you want, but in all likelyhood, it means very, very, very, little :)
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Have fun banking the percentage. My bank only works in dollars.

    Does your bank give you a range when they talk about a cost to you? Do they say that fee is $3000-5000 dollars? Have fun figuring that debit out on your statement.

    My point is that although you might pay more for the Accord the accumulated depreciation on it when you sell it (expressed as a percentage that has been proven - not a number I made up) is less than that of any other sedan in this class.

    Yes - I'll take that to the bank in actual, exact dollars and not in a firm possibility of a definite maybe.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Actually there was an article in the fleet newsletter I get talking about how the cost to rent a car has been increasing due to the cut backs in fleet sales from the big 3. The Autoline Detroit guy said the residuals for GM cars went from the low 30s to mid 40s (and GM attributes that to fewer fleet sales and a better warranty program).
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    think about this for a second -
    while it is true that Ford has avoided dumping the Fusion thru the fleet sales depts., resale value market perceptions will always largely be governed by what people think the the brand name as a whole. Example - you are going out to buy your kid his/her first car, and you tell your neighbor that you bought an 6 year old Camcord with 100k on it. He nods because he understands. Tell him the same thing about a Contour in the same condition and he wonders if you are crazy. The fact that the 1 and 2 year old rental fleet Taurus can be bought for 10-12k or that they are floating 6 grand+ on Crown Vics can do nothing but hurt a Fusion's resale values, simply because the Taurus/CV are cheapening the brand name as a whole.
    It is perhaps unfair, but for the last 10 or 15 years at least - Toyotas and Hondas are assummed reliable and valuable while the 'Detroit' products are assummed 'suspect'. Ford (and Ford buyers) will have a long time to wait before this changes - even if the Fusion proves to be the most reliable and best car ever built.
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