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I had a 94 SHO (a real SHO with the Yamaha 6) and it had a keypad. I totally forgot the password. I loved it. Until the engine seized.
You should have gotten the valves adjusted on your SHO.
I had an 89 and a 92. My wife also had a 96.
The difference is the EPA definition of the interior space. It just crosses the artificial definition of mid size and large.
The prices are not close to each other.
Go back, take your time, and read what 'vser' wrote about the them.
It's clear that Toyota at least considers their Avalon to be a "full-sized" car... not a mid-sized car.
http://www.toyota.com/avalon/#!/Welcome
'17 Chevy Volt Premiere
It happens to exceed the 119 cu/ft threshold.
If the Avalon has to be excluded from this discussion, so do the Honda Accord LX and Sport. At 119 cu/ft combined interior/trunk space, the are classified as large cars.
Other models of the Accord, due to the sunroof, are still considered mid size.
It makes no sense to me, to split hairs like this, but that's what some are pushing for.
EPA interior numbers don't tell the full story. A lot of why a car is classified as it is is based on how the carmakers position their cars vs. others, and history. The Accord has for many years been considered a mid-sized car, that's how Honda markets it (vs. the likes of the Camry, Altima etc.) so that's where it falls. The Sonata has had full-sized interior volume for years, but Hyundai markets it as a mid-sized car and its Azera as a step above, i.e. full-sized. The Avalon has always been marketed by Toyota as a step above its Camry in size, hence its classification as a "full-sized" car even though these days it's marginally bigger than some mid-sized cars.
If we went by only EPA interior volume in classifying cars, things would get ridiculous. For example, the Versa (at least the original one) had mid-sized interior volume per the EPA. But I think most people including Nissan would consider it a subcompact, slotted under the Sentra (which also has mid-sized interior volume).
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
It's 4 inches longer than a Fusion, but the Fusion is wider, taller, heavier and has a longer wheelbase.
Yes I looked up the facts.
You are the one who said the Avalon should be excluded from this discussion, because it's large.
I am saying it belongs here.
Many cars, including some compacts, are very close in size to some midsize cars.....but they are still compacts. Just like the Avalon is a fullsize car. Toyota markets it as a full size car and compares it to other full size cars, not other midsize cars. Cost does play a role in these descriptions as well and, as YOU said, the Avalon is substantially more expensive than the midsize cars discussed here routinely.
There you go with the EPA again and it certainly is NOT the only one referring to the Avalon as a full size car. Backy gave you the link to Toyota where they say it's a full sized car after you asked for just ONE example where it is referred to as a full size car. Well, you got it. And I would guess that most car people would say that the Toyota equivalent to the Fusion is the Camry. And the Avalon would compete more with the Taurus and Impala. I know it's hard to accept a Fusion being compared with a Camry for some people but that's the way it is.
The Focus can be priced well into Fusion territory and they are only a few inches apart here and there so I guess we can call the Focus a midsized car using your logic. I know it's silly but this whole conversation with you is getting like that.....silly. So let's agree to end it as there really is no absolute authority on this unless Edmunds wants to make a definitive decision on where the Avalon should be placed per these discussions.
Physical comparison of their dimensions/capacities show the are extremely close.
Is the Fusion crossed shopped with a Camry? Yes, but an Avalon is also appropriate competitor to a high end Fusion.
The biggest difference is a philosophical difference, Fusion leaning toward sporty and the Avalon toward comfort.
The EPA determines what size vehicles are, regardless of what we think.
The Camry is measured at 118 cu/ft, so it's also just under the full size classification.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I am not sure what exactly happened to my engine, just that it was not worth fixing after it seized completely. It was 10 years old when that happened. After that, wife drove the gold colored '96 with the tan leather...and you guessed it...dual exhaust. We were Ford people for a bit.
So I was only considering Accord or Sonata, until I got stuck on the Optima. It is just so well put together. It doesn't creak or rattle. It makes nice engine noises and there is no NVH to speak of.
For me, even though I like the new Impala and think that the Fusion is pretty....I would not buy big three again. I want my car at home, not at the dealer.
With that said, I have been pining for a board called "Modern Mainstream Sedans" that would cover vehicles between 18k and 40k, while leaving this board intact. I have sent Kristie a few e-mails about it.
If anyone else would like that to happen, please by all means contact her as well.
You're welcome to create any discussion you think might be of interest, as long as it doesn't duplicate existing discussion(s). You can do that on the main Sedans board: http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.ee9e22f/
There's already a Mainstream Large Sedans discussion, a Compact Sedans discussion, and a Low-End Sedans discussion (though we may need to adjust the low-end price due to inflation).
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My bad!
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The only problem the 2011 models had was a strut issue that caused the car to pull to the left. Kia recalled 38,000 Optima's and replaced the front strut's under warranty.
My car has had no issues whatsoever. If you don't like the Kia badge...then you are in luck. You can buy "K" badges for $54.00 that cover every Kia badge on the car, including the ones on the wheels and the one on the steering wheel.
You can buy these OEM style badges on eBay here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/7-pcs-3D-K-Speed-Badge-Emblem-Set-Grille-Trunk-Steering-- Wheel-Rims-Kia-K5-/131016126460?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Year%- 3A2012%7CMake%3AKia%7CModel%3AOptima&hash=item1e812b6ffc&vxp=mtr
You are not the first one to say that. C/D May 2012 mid size comparo said that the Optima's styling/lines were "subtle, like a Jag".
Then, in the March 2013 issue, While testing the Jag XF 2.0T, they said "the Optima's 2.0T performed better than the Jag's. (It also has 34 more horsepower, and costs 30 grand less).
Totally disagree, what we think counts just the same
.
If a car wash wants to charge extra for “large” cars, and sets the definition as any car at least as large as an Avalon, that is their right. If you sued them because you believe you should be charged the “mid-size” price and used the argument that the EPA considers it a mid-size car, I assure you that you would lose your case.
The EPA established their own arbitrary definition (which they could change any time they want) for their own purposes.
How about if you try looking for fruit related recipes at a cooking website. If you selected “Fruit Recipes”, you would expect to see recipes for blueberry pie, applesauce, etc. Would you want to see recipes for pea soup and green bean casserole? Well, according to botanists, peas and beans are fruit. And unlike the EPA’s arbitrary definition, no one can argue that a pea or bean is not actually a fruit.
Guess things would be clearer if the forums were “Fruit Recipes Excluding Plants that are Fruits but which 95% of People Consider Vegetables” and “Cars that 95% of People Consider as Cars Marketed as “Mid-Size” so until those exist, you can place your Avalon posts in the Mid-Size Sedan forum and your pea soup recipe in the Fruit Recipe forum
I really enjoyed your post, although I had to read it a few times to figure it out.
It leads me to post something I've been thinking about.
If you drove an Avalon and a Fusion into a pool, which one would displace more water?
Tomato will float. Avalon will not.
Tomatoes are considered fruit
V8 Fusion is both fruit, vegetable, and a car I would like Ford to make.
Wait- What was the question?
I live in a very diverse, densely populated urban area, where there is always a good chance to see just about any vehicle made. I very much notice cars that are direct competitors to mine.
I have not seen a Mazda 6 in weeks. I drove in to DC this morning for a meeting, and was stuck in traffic on 395. I saw almost every sedan there is today ( including a Maserati Quattroporte') with a large amount of Honda Accord's, Fusion's, Camry's, Passat's, a Chrysler 200, and even one Avenger. No Mazda 6.
So, I would love to know where Mazda 6's are selling, because they are not selling around DC. I see advertising for the 6 almost every day.
I found a chart with Septembers mid-size sales figures showing that Mazda sold 3168. That isn't enough to keep the company going. Here it is:
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2013/10/usa-midsize-car-sales-figures-september-201- 3-ytd.html
It's funny but I always seem to hear that Mazda has to sell more Mazda6s or the sky will fall but Subaru only sells about the same number of Legacys as Mazda sells 6s and the death knell for Subaru seems pretty silent. And the Subaru Impreza has only sold about 60k YTD in the U.S. compared to the Mazda3 of 108k YTD. And Subaru just axed their one poorly selling SUV while Mazda's CX-5 is a hit. So, I think Mazda has a pretty good outlook unless they really screw up somehow.
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2013/10/usa-midsize-car-sales-figures-september-201- - 3-ytd.html"
Don't know why you had to Google it as cski already posted the same number with a reference as quoted above. But you're right that most midsize cars outsell the Mazda6. However, I was specifically mentioning the Legacy from Subaru because they sell at about the same pace as the Mazda6 so I guess Subaru better "hire a second guy at the factory" as well. Kidding aside, I think people forget sometimes that Mazda is just a smaller niche car company that doesn't need to sell as many cars to cover their overhead. Same thing with Subaru. Could they be doing better? Sure, but they are hardly going broke. They have huge winners in their CX-5 and the new Mazda3 and the 6 is selling well above expectations. Even though the overall number may be small, the % increase over last year is good.
I have 3 Mazda dealers within 10 miles of my house and their combined inventory per cars.com is 17 Mazda6. I would dare to say if you actually went to each dealership today they would not have all those available. So inventory is fairly slim around here.
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2013/10/usa-midsize-car-sales-figures-september-201- - 3-ytd.html"
Don't know why you had to Google it as cski already posted the same number with a reference as quoted above. But you're right that most midsize cars outsell the Mazda6. However, I was specifically mentioning the Legacy from Subaru because they sell at about the same pace as the Mazda6 so I guess Subaru better "hire a second guy at the factory" as well. Kidding aside, I think people forget sometimes that Mazda is just a smaller niche car company that doesn't need to sell as many cars to cover their overhead. Same thing with Subaru. Could they be doing better? Sure, but they are hardly going broke. They have huge winners in their CX-5 and the new Mazda3 and the 6 is selling well above expectations. Even though the overall number may be small, the % increase over last year is good.
I have 3 Mazda dealers within 10 miles of my house and their combined inventory per cars.com is 17 Mazda6. I would dare to say if you actually went to each dealership today they would not have all those available. So inventory is fairly slim around here.
Mine is blue and during the summer, I noticed a blue one in front of the drug store near me. My first thought was that someone stole mine and stopped at the store but then I noticed it wasn't a GT. Turns out that someone a few blocks away has one. I must live in the only town in the world with two Mazda6's, both of them blue.