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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,568
    Wait...can you start the car w/o a key at all, or only go grab your celly and whatever?

    I had a 94 SHO (a real SHO with the Yamaha 6) and it had a keypad. I totally forgot the password. I loved it. Until the engine seized. :(

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,181
    I was just trying to explain that of course a full size car is going to ride and handle a little different than a midsize car and that is hard to compare apples to pears so to speak even though the price somewhat similar.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 13,809
    edited October 2013
    Not start the car, I can get into it without the keys. It's great when your kids need something out of the car, but you don't want to give them the keys.
    You should have gotten the valves adjusted on your SHO.
    I had an 89 and a 92. My wife also had a 96.
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2017 Ford F-150 Limited
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 13,809
    Do some homework and you will see that the size of these cars are almost identical.
    The difference is the EPA definition of the interior space. It just crosses the artificial definition of mid size and large.
    The prices are not close to each other.
    Go back, take your time, and read what 'vser' wrote about the them.
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2017 Ford F-150 Limited
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,181
    I realize they are close in size and I don't understand why you keep bringing up the EPA. They don't decide which cars are marketed as fullsize sedans or midsize sedans....the auto manufacturers do. I agree the prices are not close which makes sense as they are different classes of cars....exactly what I was saying. I think it's fine that somebody is cross shopping two different classes of car and they can be discussed here. I'm just pointing out that just because the Avalon is similar in size to the Fusion, it is not marketed by Toyota as midsize sedan but as a full size sedan like the Taurus, etc. It just happens to be one of the smaller fullsize sedans.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 13,809
    I'd like to see where the Avalon is marketed a as larger than mid size by Toyota.
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2017 Ford F-150 Limited
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,934
    That's pretty easy... for example, click the link below then look at what the title of the tab in your browser window is: "Toyota Avalon 2013 | Full-size Cars".

    It's clear that Toyota at least considers their Avalon to be a "full-sized" car... not a mid-sized car.

    http://www.toyota.com/avalon/#!/Welcome
  • vservser Posts: 48
    I took the Avalon out for a few hours. The ride was nice. Just felt good. Stereo was great. Nav an infotainment was confusing, and I'm technical. Fwiw the seats were ok, but after reading abt complaints, I might be inclined to understand why ppl might have complained. Also there is some chrome that caused glare. Other than that, I felt good driving it. Now I'm going to try to eliminate the fusion or optima. Price for a 2013 Limited Av is abt 35500 plus tax and dest. Fusion out the door at 33500. Optima sx turbo 30000 before any negotiating. I'm going to try to get the optima on an overnight. In the Av I payed close attention to the bumpier roads and steering. The optima is firm almost to a fault. I'm going to try to pay closer attn during my next ride. Also fwiw the Av is 195 inches. Only a few longer than the midsizers.
  • suydamsuydam Posts: 4,143
    I'm surprised the Fusion is so much more expensive than the Honda Accord. I thought they were similar.
    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 13,809
    The EPA classifies the Avalon as a large car, although it is not really a large car.
    It happens to exceed the 119 cu/ft threshold.
    If the Avalon has to be excluded from this discussion, so do the Honda Accord LX and Sport. At 119 cu/ft combined interior/trunk space, the are classified as large cars.
    Other models of the Accord, due to the sunroof, are still considered mid size.
    It makes no sense to me, to split hairs like this, but that's what some are pushing for.
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2017 Ford F-150 Limited
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,934
    edited October 2013
    Why complain to me? You said you'd like to see some evidence of the Avalon being marketed as something other than a mid-sized car. Clearly, it is marketed as something other than a mid-sized car.

    EPA interior numbers don't tell the full story. A lot of why a car is classified as it is is based on how the carmakers position their cars vs. others, and history. The Accord has for many years been considered a mid-sized car, that's how Honda markets it (vs. the likes of the Camry, Altima etc.) so that's where it falls. The Sonata has had full-sized interior volume for years, but Hyundai markets it as a mid-sized car and its Azera as a step above, i.e. full-sized. The Avalon has always been marketed by Toyota as a step above its Camry in size, hence its classification as a "full-sized" car even though these days it's marginally bigger than some mid-sized cars.

    If we went by only EPA interior volume in classifying cars, things would get ridiculous. For example, the Versa (at least the original one) had mid-sized interior volume per the EPA. But I think most people including Nissan would consider it a subcompact, slotted under the Sentra (which also has mid-sized interior volume).
  • scwmcanscwmcan Niagara, CanadaPosts: 399
    I think it is more what the manufacturer markets and sells the car as than the EPA size classifications that determine if it is supposed to be discussed regularly in this forum, that doesn't mean it can't be cross shopped by someone and mentioned as such, but for example the Avalon is marketed as a full sized car ( even though as you mentioned the interior room is the same as the Accord ( or was that the last gen accord, isn't the newest one slightly smaller inside, no big deal though) which is marketed as a midsized car, This doesn't mean someone can't cross shop them, it just means that for the purpose of the forums to keep things completely on topic that the Avalon is discussed in the full sized sedans topic since it is marketed as such and the Accord is discussed in the mid sized sedans as it is marketed as such. Toyota markets the Camry as their midsized entry. Personally I don't care one way or the other, but if you start bringing in the full sized cars into the discussion on the large end and the compact sized cars on the smaller end ( as some of them fit into the midsized EPA classifcation) before you know it you are talking about all sedans and the focus of the topic us lost. The forum does tend to drift from time to time to either end, but in general focuses on the cars marketed as mainstream midsized sedans.
  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 11,110
    I am also surprised at that Fusion price. If that is sticker, I think there must be some significant incentives available.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • vservser Posts: 48
    The Fusion I'd want is the Titanium w driver assist, Nav, and sunroof w H spoke wheels.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,681
    If it matters to anybody the IIHS rates the Avalon as "Large family car" and the Fusion/Accord/Altima/Sonata, etc. as "Midsize moderately priced car".
  • jayriderjayrider Posts: 3,602
    As long as you are shopping Ford -- check out the Taurus -- huge discounts on nicely equipped cars.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,181
    Still don't know why you're so hung up on the EPA. Nobody here is saying they are basing anything on what the EPA says. The AV is a positioned as a large car. Maybe you should stop telling others in a sarcastic manner to do their research and do some of your own.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 13,809
    The only way the Avalon is large is by EPA definition, and that differs by about the size of a large loaf of wonder bread.
    It's 4 inches longer than a Fusion, but the Fusion is wider, taller, heavier and has a longer wheelbase.
    Yes I looked up the facts.
    You are the one who said the Avalon should be excluded from this discussion, because it's large.
    I am saying it belongs here.
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2017 Ford F-150 Limited
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,181
    edited October 2013
    Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said the Avalon should be completely excluded from this discussion. In fact, I said it would be fine to include it on a basis of comparing it to a midsize car. However, it is a full size car no matter how close it may come to some large midsize car.

    Many cars, including some compacts, are very close in size to some midsize cars.....but they are still compacts. Just like the Avalon is a fullsize car. Toyota markets it as a full size car and compares it to other full size cars, not other midsize cars. Cost does play a role in these descriptions as well and, as YOU said, the Avalon is substantially more expensive than the midsize cars discussed here routinely.

    There you go with the EPA again and it certainly is NOT the only one referring to the Avalon as a full size car. Backy gave you the link to Toyota where they say it's a full sized car after you asked for just ONE example where it is referred to as a full size car. Well, you got it. And I would guess that most car people would say that the Toyota equivalent to the Fusion is the Camry. And the Avalon would compete more with the Taurus and Impala. I know it's hard to accept a Fusion being compared with a Camry for some people but that's the way it is.

    The Focus can be priced well into Fusion territory and they are only a few inches apart here and there so I guess we can call the Focus a midsized car using your logic. I know it's silly but this whole conversation with you is getting like that.....silly. So let's agree to end it as there really is no absolute authority on this unless Edmunds wants to make a definitive decision on where the Avalon should be placed per these discussions.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 13,809
    vser is cross shopping an Avalon and a Titanium Fusion.
    Physical comparison of their dimensions/capacities show the are extremely close.
    Is the Fusion crossed shopped with a Camry? Yes, but an Avalon is also appropriate competitor to a high end Fusion.
    The biggest difference is a philosophical difference, Fusion leaning toward sporty and the Avalon toward comfort.
    The EPA determines what size vehicles are, regardless of what we think.
    The Camry is measured at 118 cu/ft, so it's also just under the full size classification.
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2017 Ford F-150 Limited
  • vservser Posts: 48
    Bingo! There in lies the quandary. Sporty or Classier. I'm also tempted by the sx turbo in the optima.
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 33,766
    it's a turbo 4, not a 6.

    2019 Acura TLX A-spec 4 cyl. (mine), and 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's)

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,568
    My wife had a 96 Taurus too. A 24v but not the SHO. Did your V8 SHO have the cam sprocket issue? This was back when a Taurus was a mid size. Ford just one day stopped making Taurus's of any kind. I never understood that. They should have kept perfecting it IMO. Instead it became the darling of the rental industry.

    I am not sure what exactly happened to my engine, just that it was not worth fixing after it seized completely. It was 10 years old when that happened. After that, wife drove the gold colored '96 with the tan leather...and you guessed it...dual exhaust. We were Ford people for a bit.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,568
    Pretty much my feelings exactly. With the big three brands it seems to be always something. I was so sick of being disappointed.

    So I was only considering Accord or Sonata, until I got stuck on the Optima. It is just so well put together. It doesn't creak or rattle. It makes nice engine noises and there is no NVH to speak of.

    For me, even though I like the new Impala and think that the Fusion is pretty....I would not buy big three again. I want my car at home, not at the dealer.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • vservser Posts: 48
    I guess I meant lx not sxl
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,568
    Dude. It is a large family sedan. It is the top of the line Toyota, and and the Camry is a step down.

    With that said, I have been pining for a board called "Modern Mainstream Sedans" that would cover vehicles between 18k and 40k, while leaving this board intact. I have sent Kristie a few e-mails about it.

    If anyone else would like that to happen, please by all means contact her as well.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 11,077
    No, no... please don't contact me about creating new discussions. That's something any member can do, and it's not a very good use of my time.

    You're welcome to create any discussion you think might be of interest, as long as it doesn't duplicate existing discussion(s). You can do that on the main Sedans board: http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.ee9e22f/

    There's already a Mainstream Large Sedans discussion, a Compact Sedans discussion, and a Low-End Sedans discussion (though we may need to adjust the low-end price due to inflation).

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  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,568
    Oh, I am so sorry! I wasn't aware of that!

    My bad!

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 11,077
    No biggie :) I didn't jump in to chastise you, but to fend off excess emails, 'specially on a Monday!

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  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 13,809
    Dude, the Taurus is a large car too, Guess what? It has less passenger space than the Fusion. The larger trunk puts it in the large category.
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2017 Ford F-150 Limited
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,568
    Yes, the current model is. C/D said to "avoid the Taurus, the Fusion has more interior space, gets better F/E, rides better, and costs less."

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 13,809
    If by H spoke wheels, you mean the 19 inch dark stainless, I have them and the tires are pretty pricey, if you are going to replace them with the same ones.
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2017 Ford F-150 Limited
  • vservser Posts: 48
    I didn't like the Taurus any way. I'm setting up an overnight on an Optima. Going to concentrate on the ride. The look and interior are good. Except the back seat is small. And I'd have to get over the Kia badge. My gut tells me I could get an SX Turbo w tech for 28. The Fusion would be 33. The optima is very nice looking.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 13,809
    The first time I saw a current Optima, I thought it was a Jaguar.
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2017 Ford F-150 Limited
  • vservser Posts: 48
    The market is crazy. I guess that's why u can get a better price on it...bc of the lack of a track record.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 13,809
    With any car, it's pretty important to find a good dealership service department for after the sale.
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2017 Ford F-150 Limited
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,568
    Hyundai/Kia has been selling the 2011 - 2014 Sonata/Optima since 2010. Like you I was wary of a lack of track record on the Optima, which is why I made sure I bought the 2012 model instead of say an early 2011 example.

    The only problem the 2011 models had was a strut issue that caused the car to pull to the left. Kia recalled 38,000 Optima's and replaced the front strut's under warranty.

    My car has had no issues whatsoever. If you don't like the Kia badge...then you are in luck. You can buy "K" badges for $54.00 that cover every Kia badge on the car, including the ones on the wheels and the one on the steering wheel.
    You can buy these OEM style badges on eBay here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/7-pcs-3D-K-Speed-Badge-Emblem-Set-Grille-Trunk-Steering-- Wheel-Rims-Kia-K5-/131016126460?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Year%- 3A2012%7CMake%3AKia%7CModel%3AOptima&hash=item1e812b6ffc&vxp=mtr

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,568
    explorerx4: "The first time I saw a current Optima, I thought it was a Jaguar"

    You are not the first one to say that. C/D May 2012 mid size comparo said that the Optima's styling/lines were "subtle, like a Jag".

    Then, in the March 2013 issue, While testing the Jag XF 2.0T, they said "the Optima's 2.0T performed better than the Jag's. (It also has 34 more horsepower, and costs 30 grand less).

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • jplatt2jplatt2 Posts: 24
    “The EPA determines what size vehicles are, regardless of what we think.”

    Totally disagree, what we think counts just the same
    .
    If a car wash wants to charge extra for “large” cars, and sets the definition as any car at least as large as an Avalon, that is their right. If you sued them because you believe you should be charged the “mid-size” price and used the argument that the EPA considers it a mid-size car, I assure you that you would lose your case.

    The EPA established their own arbitrary definition (which they could change any time they want) for their own purposes.

    How about if you try looking for fruit related recipes at a cooking website. If you selected “Fruit Recipes”, you would expect to see recipes for blueberry pie, applesauce, etc. Would you want to see recipes for pea soup and green bean casserole? Well, according to botanists, peas and beans are fruit. And unlike the EPA’s arbitrary definition, no one can argue that a pea or bean is not actually a fruit.

    Guess things would be clearer if the forums were “Fruit Recipes Excluding Plants that are Fruits but which 95% of People Consider Vegetables” and “Cars that 95% of People Consider as Cars Marketed as “Mid-Size” so until those exist, you can place your Avalon posts in the Mid-Size Sedan forum and your pea soup recipe in the Fruit Recipe forum :)
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,568
    edited October 2013
    How do we decide if fruit is mid size, or large? Does the EPA decide that too, or Department of Agriculture? Wait, weren't we talking about cars? "KERPOW!" (my head exploded)

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 259
    LOL! cski - ur going to have to clean up that mess yourself - no help from the EPA.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,568
    Don't even get me started about tomatoes.......

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 13,809
    edited October 2013
    Well, the Avalon is like a Tomato. In reality a mid size(fruit) but officially classified by the government as large (vegetable).
    I really enjoyed your post, although I had to read it a few times to figure it out.
    It leads me to post something I've been thinking about.
    If you drove an Avalon and a Fusion into a pool, which one would displace more water? :)
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2017 Ford F-150 Limited
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,568
    edited October 2013
    V8 Fruit Fusion will float. Ford Fusion will not.

    Tomato will float. Avalon will not.

    Tomatoes are considered fruit

    V8 Fusion is both fruit, vegetable, and a car I would like Ford to make.

    Wait- What was the question?

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,568
    edited October 2013
    I kept forgetting to bring this up, due to fruit on the brain.

    I live in a very diverse, densely populated urban area, where there is always a good chance to see just about any vehicle made. I very much notice cars that are direct competitors to mine.

    I have not seen a Mazda 6 in weeks. I drove in to DC this morning for a meeting, and was stuck in traffic on 395. I saw almost every sedan there is today ( including a Maserati Quattroporte') with a large amount of Honda Accord's, Fusion's, Camry's, Passat's, a Chrysler 200, and even one Avenger. No Mazda 6.

    So, I would love to know where Mazda 6's are selling, because they are not selling around DC. I see advertising for the 6 almost every day.

    I found a chart with Septembers mid-size sales figures showing that Mazda sold 3168. That isn't enough to keep the company going. Here it is:
    http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2013/10/usa-midsize-car-sales-figures-september-201- 3-ytd.html

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,181
    Yes, but the Mazda6 is not Mazda's moneymaker....the 3 is. YTD sales thru Sept for the 3 is over 108,000 and the new, improved 3 is just hitting the dealerships as we speak. Part of the reason for the Mazda6 not selling more is availablity. They are selling them about as fast as Japan can ship them over. One could argue it was a mistake to shut down the Michigan line for the Mazda6 but there were other forces other than just market forces at play in that decision. Plus, Mazda probably didn't anticipate the demand or just didn't want to gamble on having too much inventory. It's a balancing act to some degree.

    It's funny but I always seem to hear that Mazda has to sell more Mazda6s or the sky will fall but Subaru only sells about the same number of Legacys as Mazda sells 6s and the death knell for Subaru seems pretty silent. And the Subaru Impreza has only sold about 60k YTD in the U.S. compared to the Mazda3 of 108k YTD. And Subaru just axed their one poorly selling SUV while Mazda's CX-5 is a hit. So, I think Mazda has a pretty good outlook unless they really screw up somehow.
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 259
    edited October 2013
    I may be off a bit here, but I believe most of the midsize sedans with the exception of the Chrysler 200 have outsold the mazda 6. I go by a few mazda dealers and they have plenty of them on the lots, but I have seen only two on the road this year. I googled it and found that 3,168 mazda 6s had been sold through the end of September of this year. If they are selling them as fast as the factory can make them, I think they need to hire a second guy at the factory.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,181
    "I found a chart with Septembers mid-size sales figures showing that Mazda sold 3168. That isn't enough to keep the company going. Here it is:
    http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2013/10/usa-midsize-car-sales-figures-september-201- - 3-ytd.html"

    Don't know why you had to Google it as cski already posted the same number with a reference as quoted above. But you're right that most midsize cars outsell the Mazda6. However, I was specifically mentioning the Legacy from Subaru because they sell at about the same pace as the Mazda6 so I guess Subaru better "hire a second guy at the factory" as well. Kidding aside, I think people forget sometimes that Mazda is just a smaller niche car company that doesn't need to sell as many cars to cover their overhead. Same thing with Subaru. Could they be doing better? Sure, but they are hardly going broke. They have huge winners in their CX-5 and the new Mazda3 and the 6 is selling well above expectations. Even though the overall number may be small, the % increase over last year is good.

    I have 3 Mazda dealers within 10 miles of my house and their combined inventory per cars.com is 17 Mazda6. I would dare to say if you actually went to each dealership today they would not have all those available. So inventory is fairly slim around here.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,181
    "I found a chart with Septembers mid-size sales figures showing that Mazda sold 3168. That isn't enough to keep the company going. Here it is:
    http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2013/10/usa-midsize-car-sales-figures-september-201- - 3-ytd.html"

    Don't know why you had to Google it as cski already posted the same number with a reference as quoted above. But you're right that most midsize cars outsell the Mazda6. However, I was specifically mentioning the Legacy from Subaru because they sell at about the same pace as the Mazda6 so I guess Subaru better "hire a second guy at the factory" as well. Kidding aside, I think people forget sometimes that Mazda is just a smaller niche car company that doesn't need to sell as many cars to cover their overhead. Same thing with Subaru. Could they be doing better? Sure, but they are hardly going broke. They have huge winners in their CX-5 and the new Mazda3 and the 6 is selling well above expectations. Even though the overall number may be small, the % increase over last year is good.

    I have 3 Mazda dealers within 10 miles of my house and their combined inventory per cars.com is 17 Mazda6. I would dare to say if you actually went to each dealership today they would not have all those available. So inventory is fairly slim around here.
  • gee22gee22 Posts: 82
    I have over 6K miles on my Mazda6 and only have noticed two others.
    Mine is blue and during the summer, I noticed a blue one in front of the drug store near me. My first thought was that someone stole mine and stopped at the store but then I noticed it wasn't a GT. Turns out that someone a few blocks away has one. I must live in the only town in the world with two Mazda6's, both of them blue.
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